Bolt on guitar necks

Subject: Bolt on guitar necks
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:18 AM

I realise that there are several guitar makers nowadays who make bolt on necks as opposed to dove-tail joints like Martin and Gibson use.
What is the earliest company to use this method?
What are the advantages or disadvantages of this type of neck joint.
What guitar makers use bolt on necks?

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM

What is the earliest company to use this method?

Not sure.

What are the advantages or disadvantages of this type of neck joint?

The main advantage is that a neck reset involves loosening some bolts, inserting a shim, and tightening the bolts again, rather than a prolonged battle with steaming and prying and poking and praying to get the neck off without breaking anything - so it usually costs a fraction as much to have done.

I'm not sure there is any disadvantage except that "It can't be right because that isn't the way Martin used to do it!" You can get into arguments about whether there's any difference in tone from the neck joint construction, on any of several forums, but I don't know of any agreement one way or the other having been reached.

What guitar makers use bolt on necks?

Well, I know Collings does. That should be sufficient proof that the quality of the instrument in not affected by the use of the bolt-on neck, in and of itself.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: number 6
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:31 AM

Taylor uses bolt on guitar necks.

Midchuck's post pretty well states the disadvantages and I have also heard there are no real disadvantages.

biLL

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: number 6
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

ooops sorry ... I meant "Midchuck's post pretty well states the advantages"

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Folding_20Guitar

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM

Martin's current crop of less expensive guitars, basically anything below the "Standard Series" (18, 28, 35 etc.), are built using Martin's take on a bolt-on neck. They call it a "mortise/tenon" joint but it's a bolt-on in thin disguise.

One minor disadvantage of a bolt-on neck is that it's possible to strike the bolt when drilling a hole in the guitar's heel to install a strap pin. It won't hurt the bolt, but you'll probabaly have to drill another hole in order do get the strap pin screw to bite properly, and you'll have to patch the mis-drilled hole. If you don't know exactly where the bolt is, it's probably best to have a luthier do the job, simple as it is.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM

Just to clarify the lousy first sentence in my post above, the "(18, 28, 35 etc.)" is meant to identify the guitars comprising the "Standard Series", not the ones with mortise/tenon neck joints. Guitars with mortise/tenon joints are the 16 series, 15 series, X series, Road series, Little Martins and anything else that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Scrump
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 01:06 PM

Not sure, but were solid-bodied electric guitars the first to use bolt-on necks? ISTR they were but I'm a bit rusty on my guitar history.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

One advantage of a bolt-on neck is that, since the neck and body can be finished separately, it's not necessary to have the same finish on both parts. A high-gloss finish may be desirable on the body of a guitar, but many players dislike high-gloss necks because the finish creates drag against damp skin. (Some even rub the neck with steel wool or extra-fine sandpaper to take the gloss off.) Taylor does all their necks in a low-drag matte finish, regardless of the finish on the body.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:32 PM

I have a 1969 Eko J-54 (similar to a Ranger Electra)with a bolt on neck, so the Italians were cranking them out quite a while ago.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 03:35 PM

Eko were indeed doing it long long ago, and so were Hagstrom, both in acoustics (and certainly in electrics for some Hagstroms) but I firmly believe you get better energy transfer with a set neck.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:16 PM

The Levin Company of Sweden made acoustic guitars with bolt on necks in the mid fifties. I own a 1958 Goya M-26 Goliath, Levin's word for Dreadnought, that has a bolt on neck.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 04:19 PM

Did Frankenstein have one?

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Darowyn
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:44 PM

My 1961 Fender Newporter has a bolt on neck. It's identical apart from the Newporter transfer to a 1961 Stratocaster neck.
It's my favourite guitar, plays like silk and with the small mahogany body, microphones love it.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 05:51 PM

Another advantage is that it is much easier and cheaper to have a broken neck/headstock replaced with a bolt-on, than repaired in the case of a dreadful accident. But repairs would be easier too if the neck is removable.

Main advantage is with neck resets and set-ups, though. Most respected luthiers say there's no acoustic advantage to the old dovetail joint.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

Lots of luthiers use bolt on necks these days. Lets forget about the idea that bolt on necks means the same as flat pack furniture packs, luthiers will make sure that there is the same attention to detail with how the neck is attached as to the way they do the struts or anything else. A dovetail done badly is no where near as good as an interference fit with a bolt. Either done well will work, neither done well won't, but for maintenance, the bolt wins.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:17 AM

LOL, I was going to say that, but you beat me to it, GUEST.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 02:11 AM

Well, you both should be beaten.






























Sorry..... Sorry everyone..... sorry.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:41 PM

FYI, the Frankenstein monster did not have a bolt-on neck. Bolts require nuts, and even the mad Dr. Frankenstein wasn't cruel enough to put the poor monster's nuts in his neck. He used lag screws instead.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:22 PM

Have any documented tests been done of tonal differences or energy transference differences or resonance differences between bolt ons and dovetails?

What data have they yielded?

There must be a way to measure such things - though of course what is pleasing to the ear is generally quite subjective.

___________

And I didn't know that Frankensteins monster played guitar ... wow ... you learn something new every day.

Was he in that band that won last years Eurovision?

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM

No, he was in this band.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:58 PM

And I DID come across this study once.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:56 PM

I have heard of a study, though I've not actually seen it, that claims glue is an inherently poor sound conductor. So, I guess one could argue that the glue used to secure a set neck degrades the instrument's sound a bit. But, I guess one could say the same for all the other glue joints in a guitar and I don't see anyone proposing that bridges should be bolted on, braces should be attached with screws, etc.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Cluin
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:30 PM

Traditionally, rabbit-skin glue is used for those kinds of joints. Old-style luthiers prefer it because it isn't a flexible adhesive like most synthetic glues today.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:35 PM

Well, there's at least one C.F.Martin and Johann Stauffer (sp?) from as early as the 1830s with a clock key type of neck setting device, which I assume means it's mechanically attached, ie: without benefit of wood joinery like a glued dovetail or glued mortice. Also some builders actually used a wood screw in leau of bolt(s) to help stabilize the neck joint as glue dried and left it in after the fact.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 10:40 PM

To say nothing of banjos and steel body resonators with bolt on neck attachments...

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Darowyn
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:39 AM

It's not true to say that all modern glues are flexible. The feeble white PVA wood glue that you can buy in DIY shops remains flexible- that's true.
However, Marine chandlers will sell you two pack epoxy glues which penetrate wood deeply and set iron-hard.
There are some excellent Acrylic single part glues too. I use one which sets to a glass-like brittleness, and another which includes a foaming agent which is fantastic for filling gaps but remains slightly flexible.
The rabbits are safe from me!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:14 AM

Some epoxies can be as hard as steel but they make a permanent bond and the wood will break before it will pull apart. Hide glue on the other hand, will soften when heated making parts easier to seperate for repair.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:07 PM

Cluin, that study was very very interesting. If the analysis were progressed it might make tuning the sound of a guitar, and designing a guitar to sound a particular way, a science not an art.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:43 PM

I have read all the above with growing alarm !! I shall henceforth cease to think of my guitars as wonderful instruments,as they have now been revealed to me as being mere functional machines.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM

Most luthiers will tell you there's mostly science to it. But we all know there's quite a bit of art goes into a fine instrument, as well as quite a bit that comes out of it.

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:09 PM

Thankyou---I shall sleep more easily tonight for that. Roger...

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:23 PM

I have in my possesion an enamelled steel hospital bedpan with a bolt on guitar neck.


I'm not making this up, you know...

Subject: RE: Bolt on guitar necks
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 01:52 PM

Brook Guitars - Devon
Bolt on necks - they make some of the best hand made guitars you can buy.

There is a load of mojo talked about acoustic guitars, but its all science, engineering and technique (Oh and love as well)