BS: smoking in uk pubs

Subject: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:21 PM

As of 1 July 2007, there will be no smoking in u/k pubs.
I am a smoker but I do not smoke in singarounds at festivals & I do not have a problem with this, I am happy not to smoke in restaraunts, non smoker's house or their cars, but this REALLY pisses me off, to be told that I cannot now go out for a beer & have a cigarette.
Your feelings?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bernard
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:33 PM

I'm a life-long non smoker, and I sympathise with your problem... sounds daft? Well, it's quite simple. I've grown up with people smoking around me, and whilst I prefer them not to smoke (especially in my house), I find I'm reasonably tolerant as I'm used to it.

I find the people who are most vehemently against others smoking are those who have successfully quit...!

No, I think it's a little unreasonable to expect smokers to go out for a drink and not be able to smoke. If pubs weren't so 'open plan' it would be simple to solve the problem by having some rooms for smokers and others non-smoking.

A 'smoking area' in a restaurant, though, is like having a 'peeing area' in a swimming pool...!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Non - Smoker
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:33 PM

As a non smoker I actually am against the ban. This is yet again the results of pressure groups telling us all what way to live our lives. There are massive extractor fans in all the bars in my area.

Twenty years ago we had closet homosexuals,they came out and they kept the closet doors open and now push the smokers into them.

A few years ago I was sick to the teeth listening to Roy Castles going on about he got lung cancer from smoke he inhaled in clubs.

Was he pulled into them by the arm ? Was he not well paid in these clubs ?

See in California some fruitcake is now calling for a ban on smoking in the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 08:50 PM

Well, I'm not a smoker, so my basic perspective on it is certainly a bit different. The bars and restaurants here (Albuquerque, New Mexico) went smokeless a while back, and it makes them much more (IMHO) pleasant to be in. There was a lot of concern about business (as in money coming in) going down, but it hasn't happened. As for the rights of smokers? Dunno - lots of ways to look at that.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: BanjoRay
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:06 PM

Well I've been a non-smoker for thirty years after smoking for the previous ten. I think it'll be great. When I play in a pub session, if there's one smoker in the room I'll cough all night after I get home. After a non-smoking session I'm fine.
I used to work in the Coal industry. I used to see miners go down the pit for 8 or twelve hours where smoking is forbidden and not even think about smoking till they got out, when they'd get a cig from where they'd hidden it in a wall and smoke their way back to the pithead baths. It's all in the mind.
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Alice
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 09:18 PM

When I am in a pub with smokers, it makes my eyes sting and water, my throat sore and in general makes me sick.
When public places in our state capital city here became non-smoking, heart attacks going to the hospital emergency room dropped. A study showed it was because fewer people were breathing in second hand smoke. Not kidding.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:07 AM

"this REALLY pisses me off, to be told that I cannot now go out for a beer & have a cigarette."

You can - the only difference is that you'll have to have your coffin-nail outside, so you don't poison others round you and ruin their evenings.

What pisses me off is to go out for a beer and be FORCED to have selfish people's cigarettes second-hand.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Partridge
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:44 AM

I'm pissed off too. I think I'll vote with my feet, unless they make a smoking area that is comfortable(warm and dry)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:04 AM

Yep, you just proved my point about selfish smokers, Partridge.

Now if all smokers piss off, I'll be able to go to the pub again and enjoy the atmosphere in comfort and warmth without ending up stinking like shit, with a throat like sandpaper, eyes like piss-holes in the snow and coughing like a broken down old mare for the next three days.

BTW - 'smoking areas' don't work, smoke has scant regard for non-physical boundaries. The proper place for a 'smoking area' is outside. If it's cold and uncomfortable, get over it, no-one forces you to practise your filthy habit. While you're freezing your balls off, it might be a good time to think about how much healthier you'd be, and warmer and drier, if you knocked it off.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Partridge
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:29 AM

BTW the smoking area in my watering hole has an air filter and is in a seperate area to the main room(seperated by two doors and corridor of about twenty feet)

You would be quite happy in the main room - its completely smoke free.

You only have to wait until July and you will be able to go to any pub without any nasty side effects.

I'm not a selfish smoker and I don't think I've proved any point at all

Pat

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:38 AM

I'm another non-smoker, and with the help of Medway Maritime hospital smoking killed my wife. I think the people who get their knickers in a twist about other people smoking should try practising that good old English virtue of tolerance.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:19 AM

I'm an ex-smoker, gave up 15 years ago, and I'm all for the smoking ban. Seeing as approx. 2/3rds of the population don't smoke, where is the other 1/3rd's right to say they have the exclusive right to smoke where they want? The majority should have the say and I firmly believe it is the right thing to do, and furthermore I know quite a few smokers who would really like to give up and think this measure will make it easier for them.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:33 AM

Hear, hear, Richard. The nanny state, political correctness and the concept of "rights" (as in "I know my...") have already effectively killed politeness, civility and consideration for others, and are fast converting society into a collection of discrete units simply bumping angrily into each other. A sort of Brownian motion with menaces.

As a smoker, I have never smoked in a non-smoker's house, and when I had non-smokers visit I would air the house well in advance and then refrain from smoking indoors for the duration, except for my little "bolthole" - my office. I also learned from a young age to hold doors open for others (and not just women), to give up my seat on the bus for older people or those in greater need of a rest than me, to avoid making excessive noise during unsociable hours, to clean up after me, not to expect to be waited on hand and foot when I am someone's guest, to be polite in conversation unless repeatedly provoked and all those little but important things that I consider to be the grease that helps life work more smoothly. And I did (and do) such things not out of consideration for anyones "rights", but simply because I care for them. As individuals.

Now nobody bothers to learn (or to teach) such things; they are to busy learning their rights or working out new ways to protect such rights by creating rules and even legislation. They would claim that they do so because they care, but I would dispute that in the majority of cases. They care about their concept of "society", not for individuals.

It's becoming a sick, twisted world, in which "nobody cares, and nobody sees" (Jeremy Taylor). And to continue with the paraphrasis: "Hurry up, Rich, it won't be long before the pubs are closed; I'll buy you a pint, if only we could get across this...oh, bugger!"

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:26 AM

For every smoker "voting with their feet" there will be a non smoker coming back after many year's absence. We have had the ban here in scotland for a while, and I now go into pubs; I never used to, as the amount of smoke triggered bad asthma attacks with me.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 05:49 AM

No argument with that, Bagpuss. But surely, you would prefer to avoid such triggering of your asthma because people care about you, not because of some law, which is only a temporary contstruct and can always (theoretically) be repealed or reversed in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: guitar
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 07:26 AM

They have banned smoking here in public places in Scotland, and did you know that 1,000 people die of breathing in second hand smoke every year.

Tom

I don't mind people smoking in pubs or Clubs, I'm a non smoker, and if someone wants to smoke then let them, I don't drink alcihol either.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:17 AM

Well, obviously it would be much better if people were polite enough to go outside when they want to smoke, and there wasn't any cause for making laws about it. The trouble is, they aren't.

And even if some people do have the minimal politeness to do so, it doesn't take more than one who isn't, and the atmosphere is messed up.

Why they have to delay smoke free pubs until July, in England, is a mystery - why not this weekend? Or at least, why not as quickly as Ireland and Scotland managed to do it?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 08:27 AM

How much does the government reap in from smokers each day from tax ?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:05 AM

I agree it's a chicken-and-egg thing, Kevin. As long as people are inconsiderate, you need laws; but also as long as you have laws, people don't bother to consider others.

But they used to (be considerate), that's my point, and I bemoan that loss.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:30 AM

In Wales the ban starts 2 April 2007 (a little earlier than England) i.e one week before MISKIN

Just to get all the info in

CHEERS
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:32 AM

I would be quite pleased if my neighbours would go to the pub to smoke instead of doing it in their garden, a few feet from my window.
Their smoke comes straight into my house (and it's not just tobacco either). It means I have to keep my windows shut even in summer, and I cannot enjoy my garden.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in English pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:34 AM

They don't have notices these days saying that spitting is not allowed in bars and buses. At one time they did, and they were needed.

I'm pretty sure there are still laws against spitting in such places, but no one sees that as an interference with their freedom. Or if they did, they wouldn't have much support from anyone else.

Manners change, and it's not all one way. In fact, if you go back to Victorian Times, there was in some ways much more recognition of the fact that smoking interfered with other people - there were smoking rooms and smoking jackets, and asking if it was all right to smoke before lighting up anywhere else in a home was normal good manners in "polite society".

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 09:36 AM

I must admit that, as an ex-smoker, I will be glad to see this ban come into play.

In particular, when Kendall comes with me to the UK there will not be a problem with going to sessions around the country and worrying whether he will be able to stay. His cancer of the larynx was caused solely by smoking and he now will not stay anywhere where people are smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Moses
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:51 AM

I welcome the ban on smoking in public places, particularly in pubs.

It is unfortunate that unlike George, who has great regard for the feelings of others, there are many who don't give a toss or who imagine that their smoke does not affect others. For me, it only takes one smoker to ruin a session or an evenings singing in a club.

It really is sad that the old values, consideration for others etc. have gone into decline. How many young and not-so-young people seem unable to string a sentence together without the 'f' word? Would that the Government could put a ban on that too! But I digress...

I have been to clubs where smoking is still allowed but I rarely go back. I go to folk clubs, and the occasional session, because I enjoy the music and despite the discomfort caused to me by other people's smoking.

I hope the ban may save a few lives or at least improve a few people's health.

Christine

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:01 PM

No smoking in Pubs. Wonderful. Can't wait for it to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM

To get off my soap box, I should also admit that, although a smoker, I also prefer non-smoking folk clubs...And in the old days of smoking carriages on the trains, I always used to avoid the "smoker" ones, they were so disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 12:53 PM

Well you are welcome at Market Rasen Folk Club then George :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Jorrox
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:01 PM

UK and England are not interchangable terms. I can't believe that even on Mudcat people get this wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: the one
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:06 PM

just do what the goverment tells you,and dont forget you are sub class.they know what is best for you...

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

The question should not even be whether to ban smoking in pubs...or even where smoking areas should be. The question that needs to be asked is: Why is ANY country still allowing the sale of most tobacco products at all?

If tobacco were only discovered today, and attempts made to get it approved by Food & Drug (or the UK equivalent), what do you think chances would be, given the inherently toxic and unpleasant effects?

Smokers should count themselves lucky that they are being given notice about less & less tolerance for a dangerously addictive product, and being allowed the opportunity to give it up slowly, while protecting non-smokers from the worst aspects of the problem.

It is perfectly understandable that those who ARE addicted would find it difficult to quit, as many of them started before it was made clear how unhealthful it is.....but there is nothing inherently sacred about being able to smoke in a pub, as against a restaurant or a tea-shop. It is only more common, and people tend to stay longer in a pub.

Here in the USA, they are finding that when smoking was banned, business for bars & pubs, after a short decline, tended to level off at near the original levels as NON-smokers returned to the scene. All a ban might do is change the demographics a bit....and maybe for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Anniecat
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

I am unlucky enough to have had my lungs damaged by pollution from trucks going past my shop in a little Oxfordshire town, while the slip road to the M4 was being resurfaced. (True - I have been in hospital 30 times now as a result). Now if I go into a very smokey atmosphere, it is a danger to me.
I kid myself sometimes that if I stay at one end of a room and someone is smoking at the other end I may be able to stand it. Unfortunately, a lot of smokers are actually chain smokers and the fug builds up really quickly. I then have to leave. In the past, when I have told this to a couple of young guys about to smoke roll-ups in front of me in a very crowded session, they have been really pleasant and gone off for their smoke and returned to the music afterwards.
However, in general, the attitude is "If she can't stand the smoke - she shouldn't be here". 'There but for the grace of God' springs to mind and I can't wait for clean air in English pubs.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM

I live in Massachusetts (where smoking in pretty much any indoor space has been illegal for a few years), but spend a good deal of time in England. I love pubs--who doesn't?--and so do my 3 children, who've logged many happy childhood hours in the play areas of various fine establishments whilst the grown-ups have a pint or two. The only fly in the proverbial ointment has been the omnipresence of cigarette smoke, and I freely admit I'm glad to see the back of it.

While I have the ethical issues of any educated, thinking person regarding the tobacco industry, as things stand it remains a personal choice if someone wants to spend their money on it and smoke it. I in no way suppport the government (or anyone else, for that matter) telling people "how to live their lives" in terms of personal choices, but frankly it seems to me more a matter of common courtesy than something that should *have* to be legislated in the first place. If a person makes the choice to smoke, that's his or her decision, but to assume that people who choose not to smoke should be comfortable with or accepting of inhaling their exhalations seems at best thoughtless and at worst dangerous to people who may have respiratory problems, etc. If someone is in a public place and wants to smoke, they can go outside: anyone should be perfectly free to have a cigarette if they want to, but that doesn't mean that non-smokers are obliged to have one, too.

I, for one, am looking forward to amuch more pleasant UK trip this summer.

~D

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Becca72
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:08 PM

Here in Maine smoking was banned in restaurants and bars some time ago and it's actually been a huge improvement. There is one city here, Bangor, that just passed a law to make it illegal to smoke in a car with anyone under the age of 18 present. A lot of people are screaming about the government going too far into our business, but I say if you aren't smart enough to protect children from 2nd hand smoke yourself then perhaps the government needs to step in and make that choice for you. I'd like to see it go state-wide.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:25 PM

When a person smokes in a pub, the smoke he/she inhales has to be exhaled. The clothes of others in the romm then become impregnated with the exhaled smoke.

When I have a beer in a pub, the liquid I imbibe has to be passed out of my body. How would the smokers feel if I pissed all over them?

My case rests M'Lud.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: diesel
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 03:57 PM

Hmmm, Smoking ban - Has been in operation here in Ireland a few years now.
First thing to note is the change in the air - And it's not all nice - Peoples farts in a pub are now highlighted !!! I kid you not, the smoke used to mask it !

Overall - yes it was wrong for a govt. to have to introduce a ban, but in hindsight, people weren't going to do it voluntarily.

Since the introduction, the appeal of a night out has gone up, the air is fresher, there are more seats available, and apparently the new 'chat-up areas - are outside with fellow smokers or inside at the bar with other non-smokers.

So yes the character has changed and a lot has been lost, but there has been more in return. Healthier pints and more comfort.

I believe a few pubs have shut their doors, not many but a few. But Is it a factor of the smoking ban or increased vigilence on drink-driving ? I doubt we'll ever know.

Now - if only the publicans would realise that cheaper pints might encourage even more drinkers to return - now there's an idea !

Diesel

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Alice
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:06 PM

Smoking is the leading cause of preventable death and disability in the U.S. Imagine how much suffering as well as health care costs we would save if people did not breathe in tobacco smoke. Children who grow up around it have long term effects.

LINK Click here
Surgeon General. Koop bolstered his campaign by issuing a report in 1986, entitled The Health Consequences of Involuntary Smoking, that portrayed second-hand smoke not simply as an annoyance but as a quantifiable health risk to non-smokers, especially children.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Alice
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:24 PM

You can also think about it in this way... we don't allow sewage to be dumped into drinking water. So, there are good reasons to have rules that protect our health.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 04:34 PM

SJ if you fart in a pub or any other public place - shit paticles get into other peoples lungs! can you promise me that you will not fart?
Males & females fart equally 14 times a day! That is approx 380,000 farts each per lifetime, thats a lot of shit!
Regards Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 06:34 PM

Just a thought, if this ban is about "smoking in the workplace" is Tony B Liar going to stop troops smoking in Iraq, after all it is their "workplace" we don't want them at risk now do we!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 03:06 AM

Skipy, I'm an expert and prolific farter, especially so since I succumbed to pancreas and gall-bladder problems. I'm also a gentleman who has self-respect, and I never - repeat, NEVER - fart in enclosed public areas. If I'm in the office, a shop, the pub, or any other enclosed public place and I need to fart, I go outside, just like those dirty-bastard smokers should.

And you know perfectly well that my equating passive smoking with passive pissing was simply to make a point! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:05 AM

I 'choose' to smoke....therefore I can't deny others the right to choose otherwise (nor could I deny them that right even if I wasnt a smoker, of course!)

While I would prefer it if provision was made for smokers to do so, I certainly don't feel my rights have been infringed by pubs, etc, not making provision.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,PaulS
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:16 AM

I understand that the smoking ban here in Scotland started in the spring, as in many other areas, so that smokers could get used to the idea of being outside in the better weather!

Judging by the hardy souls outside our local folk pub over the past two weeks of gales, some smokers are hard to discourage, but a number of friends and colleagues have confirmed changes in their level of smoking.

As a singer, it's great to be able to perform for an evening in a smke-free environment.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: patriot1314
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:22 AM

As a smoker, I was against the ban when it was introduced here in Scotland. Not just as a smoker but because it was yet another "trial" forced on us by Westminster. Our first minister said a ban would be "unworkable". Lo and behold, weeks later he's off on a "fact finding mission" to Ireland to see how the ban there was working.
He spent 1 hour in 1 pub in Temple Bar where every pub is busy anyway because of the tourist trade and came back home intent on implementing a ban here. Now a ban will come into force soon in the rest of the UK.....Maybe just coincidence, but it's what they done with the poll tax among other things too.

However, since the ban has arrived, I find an improvement in pubs, certainly the pubs without any air conditioning system.
Going outside doesn't bother me in the slightest. In fact you find yourself chatting to people you'd never normally speak to.

The downside is, as has been stated earlier, the rise in noticing BO and farting. There is a definate stale sweaty stench now in most places.

I suppose I could give up, but you only have to log into any internet forum (this one included) and you'll find non smokers who are out in a rash, rasping coughs, eyes streaming etc at the mere sight of someone with a lighter in their hand!
Give up?......I'd rather keep my health!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM

As an asthmatic I can only welcome the ban. I'd love it if smokers were the polite, considerate beings that have been mentioned in previous postings but I've had several conversations with smokers which have tended to show up the fact that they consider their right to poison themselves is greater than my right to breathe.

Of course, back in the Golden Age of politeness it was thought that smoking was a sign of sophistication, which is why it's in so many of the older movies.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Mo the caller
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:50 AM

Things are changing, slowly.
I can remember when it was thought polite to say "you don't mind, do you?" before lighting up in the train....
....in a NON Smoking carriage.
And polit e to say "no of course not", even if you did.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:17 PM

As a non-smoker, I prefer smoking pubs.

And clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM

About 4 years ago, I banned smoking at Market Rasen Folk Club. I had only one offensive person, so I told her it was up to her and never saw her again.
Never had a complaint since and it hasn't hurt the numbers who turn up each night. Probably improved it.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

No one who has more than a single brain cell would deny that Les. Only fools and selfish gits argue against smoke-free public places.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 01:45 PM

"Ciggy Song" - the true path........

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 02:04 PM

Indeed SL. In fact I think the Government should video harriWatts Band performing that song and use it all over the country to promote No Smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:34 AM

Yes indeed. Some years ago I was offered a cigarette. I took it, said thank you, screwed it up and threw it away. Obviously the person was offended but I said that I would have only destroyed it by setting fire to it so what's the problem? Personally I think they should bring back breast feeding in public. I certainly am not offended by it.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:48 AM

I always find that during a gig in a pub with smokers present (even if the atmosphere doesn't seem particularly smoky at the time), my voice gets 'croaky' towards the end of the evening. I never get this effect in a totally smoke-free environment (like the folk clubs I go to regularly). I can only conclude that smoke in the atmosphere adversely affects my voice or throat somehow. (I am a non-smoker myself of course, or it probably wouldn't make any difference.)

So I will benefit from the smoking ban in pubs and have to say I'm in favour, although I sympathise with those who say it's another personal freedom being taken away by this government (but against this is the freedom of people like me to not have to breathe in smoke emitted by other people :-))

Interestingly, a few smokers I know personally are actually in favour of the ban, because they say it will give them the kick up the backside they need, to give it up - they say it'll be the one thing that will help them stop! But I guess they are in the minority, judging by the comments from smokers in this thread and others I've seen elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:45 AM

I have exprienced this transition in Ireland, Norway and in Scotland, and found such bans to be beneficial overall. The sooner England follows suit the better. The thing that amazed me was that in Edinburgh at Murrayfield you are not allowed to smoke ANYWHERE in the grounds, at railway stations you are not allowed to smoke on the platforms. Sooner smoking becomes a distant memory, no matter how fond a memory, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:58 AM

at railway stations you are not allowed to smoke on the platforms

As a regular rail traveller, I would be happy if that rule were introduced on the railways. If it's raining, the smokers all congregate under the covered part of the platform, filling the air with smoke, and forcing the rest of us to choose between getting 'smoked' or getting soaked.

Even if it's fine, and I'm standing in the open air waiting for a train, and some b*gg*r comes up and starts puffing away in my direction (if the wind blows the smoke towards me), it's me that has to move away, as there's nothing to say otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Grab
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM

Why should smokers expect to be able to smoke in a pub? Just because they always have done? Doesn't make it right, or pleasant. At our club's previous home, there was one couple who both smoked who turned up infrequently. There were three people (three halves of three couples) who had lung or allergy problems and couldn't stand being in a smokey room, and who came most club nights. We asked the smokers to stop - they said no. Not our pub, so we couldn't force them. End result - six people who never came to the club again, because they wouldn't take the risk of travelling over and finding that the smokers were there so they'd have to go home again.

That's what I think of when I hear smokers complaining about this. That and the fact that anything we wear to a smokey pub can't be worn the following day, and that we need showers because we stink of smoke. Oh, and that Ireland is apparently seeing more people than ever in pubs now.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM

Sooner smoking becomes a distant memory, no matter how fond a memory, the better. Agree wholeheartedly and absolutely!

Thanks to the smoking ban, the pubs and bars in Ireland are far more tolerable now. And as a bonus, the hangovers seem less severe - which must have something to do with not ingesting second-hand smoke, which is a vaso-constrictor. For some time I've avoided pubs - and therefore sessions and singarounds - in the UK because of the filthy stink that lingers in my clothes and hair from smokers, so the bans in England and Wales can't come in a day too soon. I haven't had the pleasure of a smoke-free Scottish pub yet, but hopefully at Easter...

If people want to kill themselves at home, that's fine by me, but I don't want to be collateral damage. Hopefully the day will come when a smoker's 'fix' is regarded in polite society as something akin to having a shit - necessary perhaps, but most definitely not to be shared.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bagpuss
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:30 PM

"Personally I think they should bring back breast feeding in public."

As far as I am aware, it never went away. And in Scotland it is an offence to try to prevent someone breastfeeding in a public place.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

I must admit that some of the more belligerent of the anti-smoker posts would be almost enough to tempt me to take up smoking. More important, if I were a smoker that kind of thing would be the very thing to help keep me smoking. I think that is something people ought to take into account when tempted to indulge in diatribes on the subject.

The ban on smoking in pubs is a human rights thing as well as a matter of public health. People have a right to socialise in a non smoky atmosphere. People who do smoke have a duty in common courtesy to confine their habit to places where it doesn't cause physical discomfort to others - which normally means outdoors. This would even apply if smokers were in a majority - but in fact they are in a relatively small and dwindling minority.

Here's an article from Wetherpoons about plans for the ban - "When smoking was banned in pubs in Scotland, last March, most Wetherspoon pubs erected awnings and added patio heaters, so that smokers would not feel left out in the cold.

Shelves, tables, chairs and even fireplaces were made available in new outdoor facilities, so that smokers could enjoy the same pub atmosphere as those indoors.

Artwork outside the pubs is designed to reflect pub interiors."

All sounds very civilised. Maybe this kind of thing might offer a setting for music sessions...

I'm still puzzled why the ban is coming in for Wales and Northern Ireland in April, but England has to wait till July.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Stu
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM

I do smoke the occasional cigar, and go outside the pub to do it whatever the weather. Why should other people have to put up with my filthy habit? I am not interested in making my friends clothes stink and wafting smoke across them.

As for restaurants, the ban can't come soon enough - it's horrible eating whilst some smaggo tries to give you lung cancer.

I'll make a deal with smokers - you can smoke next to me as long as I can fart directly in your face from about 1cm for the combined duration of each ciggy you puff.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: dagenham doc
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:32 PM

Here in New Zealand smoking in ANY public place has been banned for ages. There was a huge cry with all the protests echoed here…………… heard it all before. Now it has settled down and all is back to normal. In the pub sessions when smokers want to smoke they just step outside. The remarkable thing is the amount of people who talk to one another now whilst they have their ciggy and who used to be strangers. A new culture of "smirting" (smoking and flirting) has emerged. Oddly enough prostitution has been legalised but if they want to smoke they have to go back down on the street.!!

Doc

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:03 PM

An example of selfishness and stupidty

The other day, I saw a neighbour leave in his people car smoking. His three young children were in the car.

Another

Talking to receptionist at the bowling alley in Lincoln about when they would be changing. She said it couldn't be soon enough. She gave me a flyer showing how they would deal with it by July in stages.
We got to talking further about smoking. She said she was out with her 10 mates the night before and they all smoked. They were at a pub where one room was smoking and the other was no smoking. They weren't bothered about her, so she had no choice but join them in the smoking room, otherwise she would have been sitiing on her own.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: *Laura*
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:17 PM

Well I work in a pub... and I hate it when I'm working and it's really smoky cos I can't get away.... but I don't mind smoking in pubs and clubs when I'm out....

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:24 PM

I stopped going to pubs over ten years ago because I developed an allergy to 'raw' cigarette smoke...that is direct from the cigarette not after inhalation. I smoked from the age of eight until I was 43 yrs old but developed the allergy some 5 yrs after giving up. If I go to a pub/club where people are smoking...even if I don't have a drink...I wake in the morning with what feels like a hangover. So....banning smoking in pubs...for me...is great as I love dancing in those local pubs that allow it and I can go to all the Folk Clubs without fear of hangovers unless I drink too much...which I never do!.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:06 PM

Outdoors I don't see smoking as a "filthy habit". Liable to be unhealthy, but that's a different matter. Keeps the flies off.

Pipes are a more civilised way of smoking - cigarettes are a convenience smoke, analogous to convenience foods, and in both cases these have tended to displace older and better ways of satisfying the same appetite.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 07:32 AM

McG, come and sit at one of the outside tables at Starbuck's in Lincoln High Street - you'll soon revise your opinion on whether outdoor smoking's a filthy habit. Dozens of cigarette stubs littering the floor around the tables (despite the ash-trays ON the tables), burn-marks on tables and chairs, those butts which are stubbed out and left in the ash-trays to mingle with spilt coffee and wet napkins stink beyond words, ash all over the chairs, and a foul stench of stale tobacco about the area.

Smoking is disgusting. As are its proponents.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: fair maiden of nottingham
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:10 AM

i agree with the segregation, but to be dominated pisses me off.
if a publican employs smokers behind the bar, it should be his choice to allow....as a none smoker you have the right not to enter the pub,
now us smokers have no rights...i see even train stations are band.

hell St.Pancras is in the open air. so where next.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:15 AM

>>i see even train stations are band<<

Never heard of that Band - are they good?

I don't think you are dominated Fisheye. Lets just say that the majority (non smokers) have actually won against the minority.

Even I will start going back to the pubs when the smoking stops with my children.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:17 AM

>>
Even I will start going back to the pubs when the smoking stops with my children<<

LOL I will rephase that.


Even I will start going back with my children, to the pubs when the smoking stops.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:45 AM

Hehe...

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Stu
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:52 AM

"but to be dominated pisses me off"

Hmmm - so it's OK for a smoker to dominate everyone in a pub by physically assaulting them with your carcinogens? Perhaps you would prefer just being able to twat them in the mouth when you go in for a pint?

Truth is, this isn't domination of smokers by non-smokers - it's a health issue. The sooner poor hard-done to smokers get that into their heads, the better for them and everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,concearned
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:02 AM

Is not a "twat" in the mouth also a health issue especially in a strange pub??

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:12 AM

Certainly is for the dirty-bastard smoker who gets twatted. LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:18 AM

I thought getting a twat in the mouth was called muff diving?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:43 AM

ROFLMAO!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:57 AM

Why the comtinuing insinuation that smoker's parents never married?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 12:14 PM

Just a turn of phrase to express disgust Skipy!
I'd refer to them as 'buggers' - but it might be taken by some as even more offensive! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 12:27 PM

LOL
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,concearned
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:07 PM

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

I'd rather stand next to a bar full of smokers than Strollin'Johnny or skipy. What a pair of bastard twats. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:10 PM

What a very sad person you are, seek some help.
Best Regards for a speedy recovery.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:20 PM

Nah, we'll just put a kink in his oxygen tube when he's got terminal emphysema. Watch him drown in his own phlegm - that'd be a larf!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,concearned
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:25 PM

Then there were three!............Bastard twats, that is!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:35 PM

Aye, and one of them was an oncologist. A smug one, at that.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:42 PM

And when you get Cancer of the bladder like I did through smoking.

You will love them going up your willy with a camera etc and cutting the growth out and the Chemo in the bladder delivered in the same way many times, and the years of going back to be checked to make sure it hasn't come back and again the camera stuck up your Penis. Also the pain and anguish that it brings to your family and the pain and anguish that you feel wondering if you life has come to an end.

Think on GUEST Concearned - don't think that you won't get it.

I think you are the stupid bastard twat that thinks you are invincible.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,concearned
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:00 PM

Sorry for your trouble Villan. I don't smoke and I am for the ban.
The sanctamonious attitudes of "The Three Twats" does, however, give me cause for concearn.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:03 PM

Reveal yourself, coward!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:13 PM

Sorry to you as well, I thought you were a smoker, and if anything I was trying to make you see sense. :-)

No need to be sorry about my troubles. I am 8/9 years down the road from that horrible discovery. However, I wouldn't like anybody else to have to suffer.

Well I know one of the three and he is a very nice guy, but like me is anti smoking.

One of the problems is that a forum like this can often in text give the wrong impression.

One of the other problems, is that gueats come on this forum so often and incite and most of us do not take kindly to that. Basically they are wind up merchants. Us members stand up for what we beleive.

However based on your last post, you don't seem like one of those Guests.

Why don't you join Mudcat. Are you a performer or part of the folk scene?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:22 PM

Villan, for goodness sake, he bowls into here calls all & sundry "Bastard twats" & you want to embrace him.
I to am really saddened to hear / read what you have been through and hope that it is all behind you now.
Regards Skipy.
Oh & by the way even though you have been quite vitriolic in this thread, I DO respect your point of view, it is just that my life will alter totally in a few months & I will no longer be able to be involved in a lot of local associations & others will lose out too.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:30 PM

Smokers don't notice that their clothes are impregnated with the smell of stale cigarettes, or that they reek of smoke.

I've come home from folk clubs and sessions in smoky pubs, and my clothes, skin and hair smell of stale cigarette smoke. I lost my voice at Whitby festival on the first day one year because I was singing in a smoky pub.

I'm looking forward to 1 July.

The bad news, though, is that patio heaters aren't energy efficient, and contribute to global warming.....

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:37 PM

Skipy - you could always stop smoking. You have time between now and July. Just think of the money you would save!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:45 PM

Jacqui, I was hoping to stop but this crap has given me the resolve to carry on, I am actively increasing my smoking!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,concearned
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:46 PM

Villan, I thank you. I will and I am.
Good night and God bless.

Skipy...........Same to you.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

Take care.
Regards Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:02 PM

Skipy

You don't need resolve to carry on, because it's what you do anyway. It would take resolve to stop (as would, one day, I'll stop drinking beer...).

Kitty (who doesn't smoke, but does drink beer)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:03 PM

I gave up once for 11 years!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:15 PM

11 years impressive - what started you off again?

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:18 PM

Divorce! way back in 1981.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:25 PM

The difference is, beer is good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 03:58 AM

I live in the West of Ireland in a town where all the pubs are small, one roomed affairs. In general they are run on small profit margins.
The smoking ban has been in place now for a couple of years, has worked like a charm and is here to stay. The effect it has had on custom is very much swings and roundabouts; some people have stopped coming in, but others have increased their visits because of the additional comfort. Overall, it has had no adverse effect whatsoever.
It has been accepted wholeheartedly by smokers and non-smokers alike (with a few, begrudging exceptions - but you salways get them).
As a non-smoker I no longer get sore eyes and shortage of breath while enjoying a pint; my clothes don't smell like somebody else's old ash-tray the following morning and, best of all, the risk of my lungs being turned into lace curtains has lessened considerably.
I could, of course, give up the pint, the company and the music that my local offers so that people can continue their anti-social, unhealthy and eventually fatal habit, but somehow that seems a little unfair.
To those who suggest smoke-free areas in pubs, a letter to a newspaper summed it up beautifully:
'Having a smoke-free area in an enclosed building is like having a pee-free area in a swimming pool'.
Good health,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:20 AM

Skipy
>>Villan, for goodness sake, he bowls into here calls all & sundry "Bastard twats" & you want to embrace him.
<<

We all say and do things that later when we reflect on it, maybe wished we haden't or maybe have toned it down.

Guest Concearned did apologise, and it seems will join and is on the folkie scene.

I am all for forgive and forget.

Anyway Skipy if you went 11 years without smoking, you can do it again. It just requires a determination to stop. You will also feel all the better for it. So give it a go again.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:38 AM

100 (a day!)
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:40 AM

Hi, Villan, we all kissed & made up last night so all is o/k.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:54 AM

the last post (no pun intended) from villan has been the one of the best in this thread. MCgrath also touched on it.
Encourage people, some of whom are your friends, to give up give them support rather than castigate them, love is always better than abuse.

It is hard to tell what people put in text is exactly what they mean, but some posters have made it very clear that they wouldn't support someone giving up but they will knock them for not doing so.


Let's look forward the ban is comming in let's support people who are trying to kick their addiction (because that's what it is)

signed

A smoker who has now stopped for seven years but not entirely sure I have beaten it.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:32 AM

Good words, Guest.
I hve to confess that one of the reasons for my intolerance of smoking now is because I am an ex-smoker, and realise just how strong a hold nicotine can exert. I still sometimes smoke in my dreams, and there are times - say on a crisp winter's night with a fine whisky - that I crave a good cigar.
It is one of the strongest addictions known to man, and it took the death of a very dear friend from a disease that was entirely smoking-related to persuade me finally to kick the habit - even though both my parents had gone to their deaths prematurely because of smoking.
But, as Guest wisely implies, the carrot is oft-times more effective than the stick - so to anyone browsing this forum who is trying to give up, good luck. The cravings last for six minutes at most, so distract yourself for just that short period and you've taken another step.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

Have sex instead LOL That will also get you fit :-)

30 years since I stopped and do not have any desire or craving to start again.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:12 AM

And if it's the nicotine people are after there are other ways - snuff for example.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:11 AM

I gave up and smoked my last cigarette on New Years Day 1983. My ex-husband had been advised to stop and I felt that it would be unfair for me to keep on smoking.

There was a period of time when I would have walked on broken glass for a cigarette but the real cravings only lasted for about six months and then it was more habit that was making me miss smoking.

It helped that I had real withdrawal symptoms - stomach cramps were the worst- and had a very uncomfortable week getting past that. That kept me from starting again, the thought of having to go through that extreme discomfort was enough to keep me tobacco free.

After a while the thought of starting again just made me 'taste' that cigarette and THAT made me feel ill. I went through a long period of being fiercly anti smoking but then got to a little toleration, especially since my best buddy at the time was a smoker (luckily of roll ups, which don't have quite the pervasiveness of tailor mades). Since Kendall and I got together the idea of going out with him to anywhere where smoking is allowed is a no no. He lost his voice as a result of the habit and, if you've heard any of his CDs, you will know what a loss that was.

Nowadays there are so many aids to stopping smoking and the financial savings really do make it worthwhile. Best of luck to anyone out there who is trying to give up the weed.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:30 AM

I don't regret anything I've said, Villan.
I believe in straight talking. I tell it the way I see it. If other sensitive souls find it hard to take then that's a problem for them. Maybe they need to grow a skin or, better still, take a good look at themselves and their own effect on others.

Telling hard truths has never killed anyone. Smoking kills hundreds of thousands, including thousands who have never smoked in their lives.

If, in someone else's view, I'm a bastard twat, so be it - in the 60 years I've been around, I've been abused by experts and I don't give a flying f**k. At least I'm true to my own standards.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:39 AM

Telling hard truths has never killed anyone.

If the way we tell hard truths has the effect that people keep on smoking, when they otherwise might have given it up, is that really true?

Or is the idea of the diatribes to give those indulging in them personal satisfaction, rather than to help other people give up smoking?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 09:31 AM

Thats really up to you Strollin' and I never implied that you did, but IMHO this thread was heading into serious flaming. I was as guilty as anyone. We all have our opinions and I have very strong views about smoking, just like you and that won't ever change, but this thread is going nowhere if we are all f'ing and blinding at each other.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 09:38 AM

Aye, hard to have smoking without flaming!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Smart bugger CG :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 10:12 AM

The bad news, though, is that patio heaters aren't energy efficient, and contribute to global warming.....

You're right - I believe these are particularly bad for the environment and should be banned, IMO :-)

According to an article on the BBC website, a patio heater emits as much CO2 in 2 hours as a car would emit all day (see here).

I wonder what effect all the smokers are having on the environment, and what benefit it would have if they were all to give up? Are there any figures?

The main problems with introducing the smoking ban are

(a) that it affects people other than the person doing it, a message which seems difficult to get across to smokers, who often compare it to drinking, breastfeeding and other things; and

(b) the status quo is always difficult to change - it's always more difficult to remove a privilege than introduce it. I would call smoking in pubs a privilege that is about to be withdrawn, rather than a "right".

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 11:37 AM

I smoke, but I didn't realise what an evil bastard I must be, until I read this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 12:11 PM

I smoke, but I didn't realise what an evil bastard I must be, until I read this thread.

Well, now you know! :-)

Just kidding - smokers are not evil, just sometimes selfish, perhaps without realising it.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 12:14 PM

Only if you inflict it on others in public places, FP. I really don't care what you do in private, it's your own business.

McG - I don't believe that my firm expressions of what I feel strongly about has the effect you're suggesting. If anyone contemplating giving up smoking is persuaded to keep on smoking just because I told them straight what a pain it is to others, then they truly are fools, and antisocial fools at that.

Now this bastard twat's outta here.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

Strollin' Johnny obviously hasn't heard of reverse psychology or for that matter manners. There is always two ways to say something one is to the point but polite the other.... well SJ demonstrates it perfectly. Perhaps his last statement is very apt.

I actually agree with his point of view just not with the way he expresses it. You can't insult people and expect them to agree with your point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

Sometime in May, 2007, Pubs in our city will hang up the old "No Smoking" signs. As a "use to be" smoker of many years, I can hardly wait. Ireland has banned smoking in Pubs for quite some time (not sure how long) but visiting Pubs there is so much more pleasurable now than it was before smoking was banned. I asked a Publican in Clifden, County Connemara, how his business was affected by the ban and he said that it hadn't. Even he was glad that there was no more smoking in Pubs there. That's only one opinion, to be sure, but I thought it was interesting.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:40 PM

The thing is, for some people giving up smoking is easy as pie, for others it's incredibly difficult. I had no problem, after smoking for 20 years or so, and nor did my father in law after a lot longer than that, but we were lucky. Just gave it up like that - it wasn't a question of willpower - for some reason the addiction just hadn't kicked in.

I suspect that's a lot more common than people realise, and that many people are frightened of having a big struggle giving it up and don't try, when in fact it might even be easy enough in their case.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:46 PM

The fear of change or of failure is a massive hurdle

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:55 PM

I wish I hadn't of mentioned twats.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:57 PM

GUEST: One of the rules that should be followed when one decides to quit smoking is NEVER tell another living soul that you are quitting (until you are sure you have quit).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:11 PM

And don't tell people who smoke, as they love nothing better than trying to make you smoke again, becuase they are jealous that they can't give up. They will taunt you unmercifally until you give in and they have won.
They tried it with me, but I was too strong willed to give in.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST, ...
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:33 PM

As somebody once said, "Giving up smoking is easy - I've done it dozens of times."

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:06 PM

Never say you're givingup smoking. Say you don't smoke.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:41 AM

One of the rules that should be followed when one decides to quit smoking is NEVER tell another living soul that you are quitting (until you are sure you have quit).


That's all very well, but if you are with friends who smoke, they will tend to notice that you aren't smoking and ask "Are you trying to give up?".

Or maybe you shouldn't socialise with your friends who smoke during the time when you are giving up?

It is more difficult to give up if friends offer you cigarettes, especially if you've had a drink or two and your willpower tends to evaporate.

Like McGrath, some people can give up easily, whereas others apparently struggle. My old uncle had smoked all his life - and he used to smoke strong untipped cigarettes - but after one budget had upped the price yet again he decided enough was enough. That must have been over 10 years ago when he was at least in his 50s or 60s, and he's never been tempted to smoke since.

I used to smoke as a youngster, and after giving up cigarettes I continued to smoke cigars occasionally (at Christmas, family celebrations, that sort of thing). What made me give it up was when my son was a baby - I thought I didn't want to give him any excuse to smoke when he got older, so I gave up even the cigars (I had the occasional craving over the next couple of years but I resisted it, and now I never get them at all). Of course, it didn't stop my son having the odd smoke when he got older (who hasn't?) but he's now grown up and a non-smoker. I hope us not smoking helped!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:56 AM

Scrump - I totally agree with you. My ex and I decided to give up shortly before Christmas so sat down and worked out how to do it. We were going to his ex's house for Boxing Day and we knew that they were smokers. We chose December 27 as the day we would start stopping (?) and got the chewing gum that we had decided would give us the best chance of succeeding.

I smoked my last cigarette on Jan 1 1983. We had a few days off work to avoid being where other smokers were, just to avoid the temptation. For me, the withdrawal symptoms of those first few days were a powerful incentive not to start again. It was definitely worth the discomfort of that time for the benefits afterward.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: vectis
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 03:50 PM

As an ex-smoker I can't wait for the ban to kick in. I can't believe how selfish I was when I was a smoker making everyone else suffer my fallout but as a smoker you don't generally notice the discomfort of smoky rooms.
Sessions in Ireland are now a joy and soon it will be as pleasurable over here. Roll on July.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: DougR
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 04:04 PM

Nobody said it was easy, Scrump. I quit for seven years one time and started again because of the very reasons you stated. I traveled a lot in those days and I'd be out at night in pubs or nightclubs and somebody would offer me a cigarette. One night I took one. Big mistake. I smoked for about seven more years before one St. Patrick's day here in Phoenix, 1976. On that day I tried to smoke every cigarette in Phoenix and drink all the Vodka as well. The following day I delayed taking that first morning cigarette. I am still delaying it. I have no temptation to ever smoke again, and believe me, no amount of cajoling by another smoker would ever convince me to start again. My 46 year old son smokes and the greatest gift he could give me (and himself) woould be for him to quit.


DougR
P.S. I gave up the Vodka four years ago and now drink only a couple of glasses of Red wine at night.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 05:07 PM

I'm seriously thrilled by the ban and I can't wait for it to come in. And here are some of the reasons:


I won't get a sore throat ,runny nose or sore eyes any more.

My voice won't give out part way through a session/singaround or gig.

I won't have to have a shower when I get home from the pub to get the smell off me.

I won't have to keep cleaning clothes that stink of chemicals (it even makes my melodeon smelly!).

After a session or a gig I won't spend most of the next day coughing my guts up.

Many friends, colleagues and family members who either don't come to my gigs at all or who have to leave after a short while due to discomfort caused by smoking will now be able to come for the whole evening and enjoy it.

There's a likelihood that I'll live longer!


That's not an extensive list but I think I've made my point!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:23 AM

M-boy

"I won't have to have a shower when I get home from the pub to get the smell off me."

Your personal hygiene leaves something to be desired

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM

Totally agree, melodeonboy. I don't enjoy most pub gigs at present because of the smoke (maybe we get gigs in the wrong pubs, but they nearly always seem smokier than the ones I tend to go drinking in myself).

I believe I'll start looking forward to the pub gigs a lot more as from July :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Shaneo
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 01:27 PM

Look at what has happened to the pubs in Ireland since the smoking ban.

[1] They said all the non smokers who were complaining would be back they did not come back.

[2] 600 pubs have closed since the ban , three that I know of will be gone this year ,names 'The Swiss Cottage Santry Dublin , The Dollymount House Dublin ,[cant remember the other] all of these pub sites will be turned into flats [apartments]

[3] The pubs are almost empty except for Saturday nights

[4] If a pub has not provided a smoking area for the punters we are out in all weathers.

[5] When you decide to go to a gig , you have to stay until it's over to have a smoke , I went to see Christy Moore last Friday and the venue [Vicar Street] was in darkness , thats the way Christy likes it , but trying to get out for a smoke was a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 06:59 PM

Pubs are closing all over England too, and have been for years, and that's without there having been any ban.

Partly it's that people are increasingly reluctant to risk driving when they've been drinking, and anyway the booze from the supermarket is so much cheaper than going to the pub. But mostly, I reckon it's because, what with house price inflation, it's more profitable to shut down the pub and cash in on the real estate value of the property.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: terrier
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:20 PM

Sorry if I'm going over old ground but I havn't had a chance to read the full thread yet.
When I was a lad, pubs had smoke rooms and snugs, bars and parlours. Each room had it's own function, each room had it's own community. Now we have open plan booze outlets that serve no other purpose than to encourage people to drink as much as possible. To ban smoking in pubs can only be seen as a way to encourage more people (presumably non smokers) to partake of the alchohol, thereby creating more revenue for the breweries. We know smoking probably causes respitory and heart problems but excessive consumption of alchohol is a much greater cause for concern. At least smokers only kill themselves ( unless one wants to discuss the dangers of passive smoking). Excessive alchohol consumption, on the other hand, has a far greater impact on the people who come into contact with the inebriate. I'm a non smoker but I have no problem with people who go into pubs and smoke, unless I am eating a meal, then it does become a problem but if pubs have a license to serve meals, then they should be bound to have an area that is smoke free, i.e. a separate room.
I agree, smoking should be controlled in public areas but the simplistic way this government is going about it is just yet another ill conceived attempt at controlling an already out of control culture.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 04:21 AM

Shaneo,
Don't know what part of Ireland you are from.
In Clare the ban has had NO effect whatever in numbers.
Recently In Dublin (midweek) we had a problem getting served in crowded pubs. The same with Galway, Limerick, Roscommon and Cork.
Where are these empty pubs - it would be nice to get some comfort somewhere. The pubs that have closed have lost custom because of the clampdown on drink/driving (official - Irish Times).
Smokers out in all weathers - my heart bleeds for you (but my lungs don't).
Last time we were in the UK the overall impression was that is smelt like an old ashtray. I would guess that once the ban comes in there will be the initial whine from the smokers and they will get on with their (somewhat lengthened) lives and allow us to get on with ours, in much increased comfort.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 05:07 AM

Disagree with you Terrier. Sounds like old grapes from where I am sitting.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: terrier
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:28 AM

Villan, it's difficult to express ones feelings about a subject in just a few words but I,ve just re-read my posting and still feel that it was fair comment. Sour grapes? Which bit do you not agree with?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Princess Laura
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:10 AM

I am a non smoker. i think thatthe smoking ban is a good idea because its discusting. i also think that terrier is talkings hite. its better with open plans so people are less remote from each other and it helps combat things such as rascisum because everyone is together therefore needs to get along to not get thrown out

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:25 AM

McGrath is right when he says there are other reasons why pubs have been closing in the UK over the past few years. Many villages no longer have a pub at all - I'd hate to live in such a village myself, but it seems many people don't mind. A village without a pub is a village without a heart, IMO.

A struggling village pub sold as a going concern is often worth a lot less than it would be if simply sold as a house. There may be local objections to the owner closing it down and just selling it, so the owner's strategy usually involves keeping it going for a while, deliberately running it down and making it unwelcoming to customers, so the profits dwindle until they can legitimately say the business is not viable. Then they can just close it and convert it into a private dwelling. This has been happening all over the country. Pubs are being lost every week (I forget the figure but I think it's something like 6 pubs lost every week on average). At this rate there won't be any left except in large villages or towns.

Personally I'd hate to live in the house that had recently been the village's only pub, but some people obviously have no such qualms.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 11:13 AM

Surely drink driving has killed the village pub, unless you live in the village and can walk to it.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Shaneo
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 12:46 PM

I'm just updating my previous figures for the amount of pub closures in Ireland since the smoke ban of 2003.
The latest figures from the vintners fed. is 800 pubs closed with an average of one a day now going out of business.
It's not all down to the smoke ban , the fear of being breathalised the morning after while going to work has had a Hugh impact.
We have being told for years not to drink and drive and eventually for the most part the message got through and we left the car at home , got a taxi or whatever , so even when we done the right thing they came back and hit us with the morning after breath test.

Fu****g dictatorship , what's a man to do after working all week.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:10 PM

There may be local objections to the owner closing it down and just selling it

Do local objections carry any legal weight? I mean, does it actually require planning permission for the owners to close a pub and use it as a house, or sell it as a house? I'm thinking of a couple of pubs I know where that's happened, and I don't seem to remember any planning permission notices stuck up outside, nor any adverts in the local paper inviting people to say if they had objections to the change.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:19 PM

As for Shaneo's comment - "morning after" tests aren't any problem unless someone has really got totally rat-arsed. In which place they aren't in any state to drive in the morning, in any case, and Thank God for anything that will keep them off the roads.

Mind you, the way technology is coming along, what with Satellite Navigation systems and all, it won't be that many years before technology will have moved on. We'll be able to go out and drink all we like and then be driven home by our friendly robot chauffeur - who'll probably give us a good talking to on the way about how we should cut down on our drinking for health reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM

Well it's not as if Ireland was under pubbed was it?

I think smoking should be banned in all public places, and the smokers should not be allowed to hang around the entrance to the premises, creating a gauntlet of carcinogenic smells and odours for non smokers to run through!

If smokers knew how disgusting they smell to those who don't partake, they'd give up immediately.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 03:41 PM

That's a demand too far from Giok. The kind of thing I meant when I said some posts could almost drive me to smoke.

If the smokers outside getting up his nose, what's to stop him holding his breath for a couple of seconds till he's inside?

So long as I can have a drink or take in some music in a pub without it being all smoked up, that'll quite good enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 06:17 PM

My son was once a tenant in the last pub in the village. He soon realised that the intention of the brewery seemed to be to make sure that the pub did not flourish, even with all the effort Andy was putting into it. They just made life very difficult and very expensive for him.

He exlpained to me that, if there is only one pub left in the village, the brewery have to prove that it is not a viable going concern before they are allowed to sell it off. They managed that with Andy's pub by charging him high prices for the beer they supplied which meant that he couldn't compete with the local cricket club or the pubs in the nearest town, about three miles away. He just had no way to be competitive, although the locals praised the way he looked after the cellar. When he left the pub closed and, I believe, the building was demolished.

At his next pub he was the only publican in town who got a cask marque from CAMRA, so he couldn't have been doing too badly!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: terrier
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:09 PM

Exactly Jaqui.C. The small pubs are not proffitable enough. The large breweries are interested in money, the more people you can pack into a pub, the more money they will spend, the small country pub is there to serve the community, not to make lots of dosh.
As for drink driving killing the village pub, if there were more 'local pubs' there would be fewer drunken drivers on the road. It's the breweries who have killed the country pub.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:15 AM

Yes, one reason that pubs are closing, especially in rural areas, but some in towns as well, is that most pubs are now owned by large chains (not just breweries, but 'pubcos' that just operate pub chains). These businesses will close a profitable pub just becasue it doesn't meet their demanding profit targets, e.g. they might set a target of (say) 25% and if the pub only makes (say) 15% profit, that's enough reason for them to close it.

The fact that the pub is at the heart of a village community doesn't matter to them - it's only the bottom line that matters to them.

McGrath asked: Do local objections carry any legal weight? I mean, does it actually require planning permission for the owners to close a pub and use it as a house, or sell it as a house? I'm thinking of a couple of pubs I know where that's happened, and I don't seem to remember any planning permission notices stuck up outside, nor any adverts in the local paper inviting people to say if they had objections to the change.

I think there are certain rules about change of use, etc., that come into play, but basically if the owners want to close a pub there are ways round it (make it difficult for the tenant to make a profit, make the pub unattractive to customers, decline it trade, no longer a viable business).

But there have been successful campaigns where the villagers have banded together and organised protests against the closure of their only pub, resulting in the village pub being taken over by the villagers. I know one pub in my area that was saved in this way (the villagers invested in the pub, employed a manager, and it's now very successful and regularly won CAMRA awards, etc.)

I believe CAMRA can provide advice on how to campaign against a local pub's closure, if anyone finds themselves in the unfortunate position of being about to lose their only local pub.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:17 AM

Yes, terrier, it's a vicious circle. No local pub means people have to travel to another town or village to get to a pub. That means using public transport to avoid drink-driving. And especially in rural areas, there's no public transport in the evenings, apart from the expensive option of cabs. It's no wonder many people have decided to drink at home instead.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: fair maiden of nottingham
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:47 AM

hi all, you seemed to have missed my point...if a pub/folk club or wherever chooses to smoke.....it is your freedom as none-smoker not to enter.
but as a smoker i am now refused. Perhaps standing on the corner playing will be banned from smoking soon, as a traffic hazard

fisheye

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:21 AM

"but as a smoker i am now refused"

No, you're not! Unless the cigarette is surgically attached!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:31 AM

You missed my point much earlier on Fisheye. Seeing as 70% of the population are non-smokers why do the minority feel it's their right to impose on the majority. As a non-smoker I do not 'force' you to breathe anything other than fresh air if I'm in your company, so why do you feel that you have the right to force me to breathe second hand smoke if I'm in yours?
George Papavgeris put it that if people were considerate enough they would not smoke in enclosed areas, and I agree with him. However the minority still seem to think it's their right to do so, and for that reason the politician's hands were forced into legislation. It's a big whip I agree, but without the minority being a tad blinkered it would not have had to be so.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:16 AM

hi all, you seemed to have missed my point...if a pub/folk club or wherever chooses to smoke.....it is your freedom as none-smoker not to enter.

Yes, but supposing I enter a pub and order a meal, then a smoker comes in, sits next to me and starts blowing smoke at me as I eat? Of course I have the 'freedom' to just abandon the meal if I choose, but why should I? This is what can happen now.

but as a smoker i am now refused.

No, you're not. You can come in and drink, eat, chat, etc. But you're just not allowed to smoke. That's no different from anyone else.

Perhaps standing on the corner playing will be banned from smoking soon, as a traffic hazard

The way this government is going about trying to control our every movement, that wouldn't surprise me at all :-(

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:05 AM

The thing that really pisses me off, is the fact that I could open a gambling club, a gay club, or a late night drinking club, all of which were prohibited practices until recently. But I can't open a smoking club, an activity that has been legal for centuries. Nanny Blair's take over all human activity is nearly complete.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:27 PM

As someone remarked above, I am amazed and mortified at the recollection of how oblivious to non-smokers I was in the years I was a smoker. I operated as if I really believed that I could make the explanatory remark "But I smoke" and that meant that I could smoke anywhere I wished.

Oh, and Doug R, I don't agree at all that one should not tell others when one has decided to quit smoking. Keeping the decision secret to me means that one has not actually decided.

All of my four brothers quit smoking before I did. What helped me was when one brother told me to not try anymore, that when I am actually ready to quit it would be much easier.

That is what I did. I still wanted to smoke but I no longer wanted to be a smoker, if that makes sense. So on one Wednesday I told everyone I was quitting on Sunday, and on Sunday night I threw the last pack into the fire, washed all the ashtrays and went to bed.

That was 29 years ago. I still kind of like the smell of a cigarette when it is being smoked outdoors as long as it is not too close, but I am grateful that it is rare to find a smokey public place.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:43 AM

I can't open a smoking club, an activity that has been legal for centuries. Nanny Blair's take over all human activity is nearly complete

Yes, it's interesting that the law won't allow anyone to start a 'smoking club', i.e. a room where smokers could gather to enjoy a smoke together. As a non-smoker, I can't see any reason why anyone should object to that, assuming there would be no staff who could be affected by the smoke. Yet I assume it would be legal for a bunch of smokers to gather in an outside place, say the market square in a town centre, and puff away - this would cause more inconvenience to the non-smoking public than gathering in a private 'club' room.

But I assume there's nothing to stop anyone inviting other smokers to their home for a smoking session? Or is that being made illegal too?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:59 AM

I'm going to hold a smokeathon!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:59 AM

i detest smoking,just thiught i would mention that

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:13 AM

Nanny Blair's take over all human activity is nearly complete

Yes, stage one - the banning of folk singing in pubs - is just the start. Blair's ultimate goal is to make it compulsory for all UK citizens to listen to the Bee Gees, Cliff Richard and Oasis at all times (plus the recording of the Ugly Rumours reunion concert, to be held later this year as part of his "Blaze of Glory" departure; and the complete Labour Party conference speeches of our esteemed PM).

Of course we will all have to carry licenced iPods, and we will be taxed per minute of listening. The iPods will require an annual check to make sure they are properly charged with the designated mp3s (this check will of course be mandatory at a cost to the owner). Anyone caught fast-forwarding through Sir Cliff's version of the Lord's Prayer set to the tune of Old Lang Syne, will be fined for speeding.

By Jove I needed that! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:15 AM

Well talking about Homosexual Clubs, they are a minority, and they don't appear to lack for rights under the law. Perhaps they should allow Smoking Clubs.
Would the smokers wear plaid shirts and have moustaches, and weirdly sculptured facial hair too?

Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:52 AM

I want a smokers only pub where men can go dressed as ladies!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:21 PM

The ban relates to public places and workplaces - I don't think that a club on private premises with no staff employed would be covered. No doubt there will be grey areas here and it will become clearer in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,IB48
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:22 PM

I think skipy has hit onto something here

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: terrier
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:07 PM

### Nanny Blair's take over all human activity is nearly complete ###

Nice one scrump......but I do worry you may not be to far from the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: fair maiden of nottingham
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:32 AM

Hi all, I have smoked a pipe for 30 plus years, and if i enter a place that does not allow smokingol it does not worry me. But I do object to being controlled by Law.
If my local pub,put a large sign outside, saying SMOKERS ONLY. what argument can you none smokers have about entering knowing your fate.
as a final, i would love a £1 for every none smoker that told me they like the smell of my pipe tobacco.

fisheye

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:45 AM

If any area was labelled SMOKERS ONLY I would not go into it. That would be my choice.

What is being talked about here is the lack of choice open to all non smokers who would like to spend a pleasant evening making music with friends. Even one skmoker in a bar can make the atmosphere unpleasant for all the rest, even more so if any of the others have respiratory problems or have suffered from smoking related illnesses.

Unfortunately Fisheye, not all smokers are as willing as you to comply with requests. Even where smoking is banned, on trains, I once had a stand up argument with a guy who was going to light up, before the train even started. He got off the train when I actually went to the door to get the guard to come and deal with him.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:30 AM

If I go into a pub today, and there are smokers present (evident by the smoky atmosphere), of course I can exercise my right as a non-smoker to leave, and find another pub more to my taste.

If a smoker enters a pub and sees non-smokers are present (evident by the absence of any smoke), he could exercise his right to leave, and seek out a smoke-filled pub. But how many smokers would do that?

It's true I can choose not to enter a pub if it already contains smokers, but supposing there are none present when I enter, and let's say I order a drink and a meal, and then a smoker comes in and lights up a cigarette and starts blowing smoke in my direction (whether intentionally or not). What am I supposed to do now? I've paid for the drink and the meal so I don't want to walk out - I wouldn't be able to get a refund either.

Yes, I could ask the smoker politely to stop, but that's likely to cause friction, and at worst a violent or aggressive response, on the grounds that it's his 'right' to smoke, regardless of the consequences to me or others in the pub.

That's why I'm in favour of the new law. It means I can be certain this scenario won't happen - at present it's a lottery for non-smokers, and the cards are stacked in smokers' favour, because non-smokers (all else being equal) don't affect them at all.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

"The ban relates to public places and workplaces - I don't think that a club on private premises with no staff employed would be covered."

A friend of mine who happens to be a licencee has been discussing the smoking ban with the local authority, who have informed him that his living room above the pub is a workplace because it is the only space available for his paperwork.

This, they say, precludes his smoking in that room, meaning that he will only be allowed to smoke in his bedroom, even when the pub is closed.

Leaving aside the question of how they would propose to a) gather evidence, and b) enforce the rule, should they have the right to decide what he can or cannot do in that part of the premises that constitute his home, but is not open to staff or public?

I fancy that they would make the same judgement of the place where the organiser of a private club kept and updated the records of that organisation, so it would have to be a casual, unorganised gathering to be entirely safe.

Even tho' I dislike the idea of legislation as a means of achieving what could better be achieved by setting aside a smokers' room in pubs and workplaces, or by educating people to consider the needs of others, I must say I will be pleased to see smoke and music separated. It will be easier for me to sing for a whole evening (a purely selfish POV, especially as I have been a smoker until very recently).

I do fear, however, that the authorities will overstep the mark in their zeal to uphold this latest erosion of rights.

2003 Lets destroy folk music for the sake of public safety.
2007 I know smokers are breaking no laws. Let's make some new ones that will bar them from any venue other than a draughty, wet street corner.
2011 ANY PREDICTIONS. Can any of you be sure that YOU will not find yourself the next target?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Gizmo
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:15 PM

"No doubt there will be grey areas here and it will become clearer in practice."

Somehow McGrath, I very much doubt smoking only clubs would become clearer in practice!

The grey areas would certainly increase, as well as the white turned ochre ceilings and a new saying will emerge - you can't see the smokers for the smoke!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: fair maiden of nottingham
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:36 AM

Hi all, Lets face it if we turned the clock back 50 yrs, pubs used to have multi bars, and as far as meals were concerned, it was always pronounced'Gentlemen You Make Smoke' so is this the modern generation that has lowered the standards.( new stream). As for me I smoke for pleasure not total addiction.
I always have the santacty of my own place at the moment.

But as quoted previously this is now comming under suspect.

Fisheye

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:48 AM

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Niemöller
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:37 AM

2003 Lets destroy folk music for the sake of public safety.
2007 I know smokers are breaking no laws. Let's make some new ones that will bar them from any venue other than a draughty, wet street corner.
2011 ANY PREDICTIONS. Can any of you be sure that YOU will not find yourself the next target?

I predict that before the next election it will be made illegal to vote against Labour. If the Lords throw it out, Blair and Brown will just force it through 'in the interests of the country' like most of the other laws they've 'passed' since they came to power.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:08 AM

This, they say, precludes his smoking in that room, meaning that he will only be allowed to smoke in his bedroom, even when the pub is closed.

Assuming this isn't one of those "friends" who crop up in innumerable urban legends, I'd advise Don's friend to have a good laugh and completely ignore the buffoon who said this. I am pretty certain that any attempt at a prosecution in such a case would be treated as an abuse of the court system.

And I have no doubt that a group of friends meeting together in non-public premises, without any paid staff being present, would have no legal problems whatsoever if they wish to smoke. Well, smoke tobacco anyway.

It would of course have been much better if in the first place the push for limiting smoking in all places where it might inconvenience other people had come from smokers themselves.

I have never been aware of any occasions where smokers have demanded that separate smoking facilities are provided, so that they can smoke in comfort without interfering with the comfort of people who were not smoking. At least, there were no such demands until the objections of the non-smoking majority had produced an irresistible momentum for a ban.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:11 AM

Spot on Kevin. I just wish I could have said it that way.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: terrier
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

What about the people who make the 'nicotine stained effect' paint greatly favoured in British 'Olde Worlde' pubs. They'll all be out of a job. Has Blair no shame at all. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:50 AM

what a load of tosh!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:23 PM

I can't stop smokers killing themselves so long as I don't have to breathe it. Talk about infringement of rights. Smokers polluting my air are stepping on my civil rights. Yes, ban it in the streets if I have to be subjected to it. Those that tolerate it may as well be smokers themselves. If we claim to want to ban factories for their pollution and air quality, why shouldn't smokers be held accountable too?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM

Well no bugger is going to tell ME that I can't have a cigarette with my pint.

I've made sure of that.

I've quit smoking!!!! SO THERE! Now they'll have to find summat else to stop me doing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:41 PM

Today I was thinking about how I would wake up with a sore throat evey morning of my childhood,
how I would catch colds and flu every winter, and... how much cigarette smoke I breathed from
my dad's camel straights! We all lived in a closed in space full of smoke in our house and in the car!
No wonder I got healthier after I left home - the sore throats went away.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rockhen
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:51 PM

I will be glad when the ban comes in. I hate sitting in smoke. I do feel sympathy for my mates that smoke but I wish desperately, that they could give up as I worry about their health and also mine, when I spend time in their company.
It does disgust me, the money that is made out of smokers through tax on tobacco and that this is a major consideration when laws about smoking/non-smoking are made, rather than other factors.
Good luck to anyone giving up...I really hope you do it. I am grateful that I didn't start smoking when I was young because I think it must be particularly difficult to try to give up, if you did.
My eyes are still sore from sitting in the pub at an acoustic night last night. I have never smoked a cigarette, ever, firsthand because that choice was mine and I chose not to.. But secondhand smoke...I hate to think and feel sick at the thought of how many I have 'smoked' unwillingly.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

Well done Don T.Make sure you stick to it. Can you have sex with a pint?

Keep coming to Faldingworth Live Rockhen, you know it makes sense - smoke free :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

Publicans won´t like it, big drop in trade expected.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:40 AM

Well the bad news is this. Here in Scotland where we've had a ban on smoking in public places for some time now, passing a pub, or trying to enter one is like running the gauntlet.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:07 AM

Why's that, Giok?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:21 AM

>>Publicans won´t like it, big drop in trade expected. <<

Maybe publicans will have to change their attitudes and start catering for non smokers and families.

Another thing that they could do, is stop pumping youngsters with loads of alcohol and ban trouble makers, and start concentrating on encouring the majority of decent people to go to their pub.

Any decent publican should be able to use the smoking ban to their advantage, instead of pampering to the smokers and yobbo's.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:50 AM

I'm not entirely sure there's any correlation between smokers and yobbos.
Most Pubs, if they allow children at all, don't allow them after 6-8pm. What I can tell you is, that the chain I work for are desperately trying to sell their establishments following the release of the true figures on loss of trade(taken from Ireland and Scotland).
I also, like you, believe that Publicans and all the small independant private clubs should concentrate on other ideas to draw people in to conteract the loss, sadly I think it will be a lot easier to close down. I also believe that once the loss in revenue to the Govt is seen ( ie. loss of taxes on cigs as people reduce/ give up smoking and people buying in a supermarket and take home so they can smoke)there will be a massive hike in beer duty to try and compensate hitting the pubs once again.

I'm with you on the ban I can't wait, however I hope that their will still be pubs to go to!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:52 AM

Because the doorways are surrounded by addicts, puffing away like there was no tomorrow Johnny, and you run a fair chance of reaching the pub smelling like a Capstan Full Strength Kipper.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:00 AM

You could maybe try walking a little faster, Giok. The smokers outside pubs in Ireland seem friendly enough - and they probably act as a calming influence on the street.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:50 AM

I think it's absolutely fantastic! I live in Wales and it's already in effect here. Brilliant! Makes such a difference.

Ella who is sooze

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:34 AM

Thats great to hear Ella.

Of course some pub owners who do not change their attitudes will fall by the wayside.I suppose that will be the difference between a good publican and a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:37 AM

Here in Nova Scotia, smoking is banned in all public places, all work places, and usually also within five metres of public entrances, is not permitted anywhere on hospital property. This has been so for several years, and people have just adapted. Smokers joke that they are the only people who regularly get any fresh air in winter, as they must go outdoors for their puff.

I am one of those people in a constant struggle with nicotine addiction (quitting's easy - I've done it a few dozen times), and I'm happy with the bans. Helps me avoid temptation when I'm not smoking, limits me when I'm succumbing.

I do, however, find some of the more adamant anti-smokers rude and even unkind.

Example 1: When smoking was still permissible outside the hospital a couple years ago, and I was waiting for my mother, I helped an 86 year old man find his way out to a reasonably sheltered spot so he could have his smoke out of the cold wind. An extremely officious young administrative person came racing out and lambasted him for smoking too close to her window, which was open a tiny crack and a good three metres away.

Example 2: At a craft fair, where the mingled scented soaps, candles, sachets, people's perfumes, colognes, are enough to knock a person flat, a woman standing at my booth noticed, walking by, another elderly man holding an unlit cigar and took it upon herself to loudly complain that she would soon have an asthma attack from the smell of that disgustiing cigar, and someone should throw him out.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM

The Villan said,
"Of course some pub owners who do not change their attitudes will fall by the wayside.I suppose that will be the difference between a good publican and a bad one"

Or of course the possibility of one who is running on the borderline of viabilty. Pub and Club life is not what it used to be and losing any custom could cause problems.

Some of the smoking area solutions are quite cheap at £4 - 6k (yes it's true) this could be a financial problem. We have already been informed there will be lay offs in my chain.

Again I repeat I am for the ban but I can't help but wonder what real effect it will have.

A slightly different topic but I also wonder what will be outlawed next! Will it be something we feel differently about.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:25 PM

Some of the smoking area solutions are quite cheap at £4 - 6k

And others won't cost a single penny.

What real effect? It'll mean I'll be able to choose where to drink in a pub without having to hunt out some relatively smoke free area.

And it's not just pubs of course. There's a little coffee bar I like because it's friendly and makes the best coffee and doesn't overcharge, and it doesn't feel like a Starbucks clone. But more often than not it's got some berk sitting at a table just inside drifting smoke all over the place, so I go elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: vectis
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:44 PM

I have noticed that there are far fewer smokers in many pubs than there used to be, sometimes they are in the minority. recently I was in a session and there were about fifty people in the pub. One chap eventually arrived and promptly lit up and smoked pretty constantly all night. The smoke ended up everywhere in the pub by the end of the evening making it unpleasant for everyone else.
Now that's what I call selfish behaviour and I'm glad that the ban will stop this happening.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,fumblefingers
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 12:48 AM

The smell of beer and spirits hurts my nose and makes me cough. I get violently ill and have to get an injection of nicotine to recover. The government should ban alcohol in bars and restuarants.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:31 AM

From what I've seen there's still quite a few people going to the pub, it's as popular as ever, despite popular belief that people would stop going out.

Most pubs have built a shelter of some sort in the gardens, (for those who have them).

EWIS

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 04:28 AM

"Some of the smoking area solutions are quite cheap at £4 - 6k"

"And others won't cost a single penny"

The people who don't spend a single penny will undoubtly lose custom (source: any brewery in the UK)
I for one don't want to castigate smokers I just wish they would do it outside and I think there is no reason why they shouldn't have a "comfortable" area OUTSIDE.

"What real effect?"
I have already been told there will be lay offs in my company so the "Real affect" is that I and others will lose our jobs. This of course may not matter to you but obviously it does to me.

The Gambling Commision have already published figures on the losses from gaming machines in Scotland since their ban. Again these don't outwiegh health risks, but I do believe it proves the point that money will need to be spent on smoking areas. These should not be within two meters of the entrance to the building (of course this doesn't count if no smoking area is provided)
I repeat my statement that I am FOR the ban (even though I may lose my job)

There is always two sides to everything and to ignore that would be blinkered.


PS sorry if this post arrives twice, I first posted about an hour ago, but it didn't appear.(perhaps some one might delete the earlier posting if it arrives)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Stu
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 04:50 AM

I'm looking forward to the ban.

I smoke the occassional cigar, and at my favourite session pub I like to sit on a bench outside to smoke, hear the sounds of the sessions coming from inside, and look across the fields towards the Peak District.

Bliss.

I don't pollute the air for my fellow man, the pub is a far more pleasant place to be in without the wreaths of cancer enhancer.

Bring on the ban!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:20 AM

The smoke ban has not appeared to make much of a dent in the patronage of liquor serving establishments here. What did cause considerable die off of taverns was the changes made years ago in the drink/drive laws. When the province came down heavily on drinking and driving, thus saving a lot of lives, quite a few of the more rural taverns died from a lack of taxis and buses to haul patrons home.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,antiqueerian
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:29 AM

They're banning smoking, because it can cause respiratory diseases and some find it offensive.

They've started the process of banning drinking, because it can lead to drunkenness and kidney failure.

But buggery, which can lead to AIDS and is abhorrent to anyone with an ounce of decency, is not only legal, but actively encouraged!

O tempora, o mores!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:33 AM

I agree with George P. on this one, whilst agreeing that smoking is a dangerous pastime it always makes me wonder if the danger has been exaggerated by various health fascists who have an axe to grind?
Why is it some people die from smoking and others don't? my own grandfather lived to the age of 87 after smoking Woodbines for 70 years. (and I mean smoking! he used to stick one in his mouth, light it and let it burn down to within a 10mm of his lips and then light up another!) It seems to me that there are a lot more factors to be taken into consideration than we know of at the present.
...Now I've lit the blue touch paper I'll stand back and wait for the next health fascist rant from someone!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:06 AM

GUESTantiqueerian, please go peddle your bigotry elsewhere.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:18 AM

BruceMB, a medical biologist once explained this a little. There is always the possibility of some normal cells becoming cancerous, which means they start multiplying with no regard to proper function. These are the cells cancer treatments try to kill. With smoking, or any other cancer promoting substance, the chances of cells becoming cancerous rises. Some people are also more prone to having cells become cancerous (sometimes specific organs, thus genetic determinants in breast cancer, for example). Some people are less prone to having cells become cancerous, and you may add to that the luck of the draw: none of your grandfather's cells happened to become cancerous, due to good genes and the laws of chance.

As to the other deletorious effects of smoking, like respiratory ailments, they are real enough. I've seen a full-on asthma attack occur in a woman too polite to tell the visiting smoker in her own home to butt out.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:19 AM

True, BMB, some die, some don't.

My grandmother smoked 50 a day for most of her life, and if it was responsible for her death, it took its bloody time. She was ninety six. But the figures do show that on balance it's not healthy.

As far as I'm concerned, it's up to the individual, whether or not to take the risk to his/her own life.

I have, for a number of years tried to ensure that I did not make that choice for others, by going outside to smoke, a fairly pointless exercise if you are one of twenty and the other nineteen don't join you, which is why I am strongly in favour of the ban. It ENSURES a clean atmosphere for those who do not want to smoke by proxy.

As I said earlier, I recently gave up smoking, so it's easy for me, but I was in favour of a ban long before I even considered quitting.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 09:19 AM

I'm sure if I wanted to smoke I'd be happy enough to pop out for a fag with my mates in the street outside and then back inside to carry on what I'd been doing before, rather than slope off to some strange place which had spent thousands on a plush outside area.

More often than not pubs already have pub gardens anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:31 AM

http://www.thesmokezone.co.uk/

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:49 AM

What will be interesting to watch is the use that will be made of these outside facilities, where provided.

I remember years ago, when trains had smokers' compartments, I climbed into one which was occupied by a family of four. I settled in and lit up, and the female went berserk. I was treated to a five minute torrent of abuse, and when I pointed out that the carriage was for smokers, she responded with more of the same, and went off to look for the guard (conductor in the USA).

He duly arrived on the scene, pointed at the smoking sign and said "Live with it, or move to a non smoker".

I predict some of that on warm summer evenings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:30 AM

Was at a session in Pontblyddyn, Wales a coupla weeks ago.

Coming from England [Chester], I'd forgotten about the no-smoke rule already operating in Cymru, but was most pleasantly surprised to see the splendid roofed pergola with picnic tables & floral arrangements set out on the patio just outside the lounge.

Still feeling the need for an occasional puff between tunes, I popped out to the facilities & met up with several other 'pariahs'.

Most pleasant experience to have unusual opportunity to banter with different folks.

If the English pubs adopt similar arrangements, the everyone should be happy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:57 AM

I have a serious blood problem that has probably been caused,so i have been told,by passive smoking.I have been performing in pubs and clubs for thirty years,so i personally cant wait until the filthy habit is kept away from me.From my experience,most smokers are inconsiderate gits.I dont mind you killing yourself in private,just dont take us with you.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:43 PM

I think Mr Happy has it right there - we could find ourselves with a bunch of extra places to drink and even make music. I've nothing against people smoking if it doesn't get up my nose excessively. Outdoors it keeps off the midges.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:43 PM

You tend to find the type who smoked in bars gave us the best music and spent the most money. We are told it will make bars "family friendly" Translated means, kids running wild around the bar, smiling father may strecth to a swift half. Mum will have a tonic water and four salads for lunch. Let´s see the till rolls at the end of each month !

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM

You tend to find the type who smoked in bars gave us the best music

Basically I'd say that's bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 05:47 PM

Even I wouldn't agree to that, Guest Alan.

My voice, and hence my performance quality has definitely improved since quitting, and that's after only five months.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,James
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:00 PM

A smoking ban in UK pubs and clubs is not the way forward.People choose to smoke. The government has used scaremongery to greatly exaggerated the dangers of secondhand smoke. On the one hand everyone should have the right to breath clean air but on the other forcing smokers to smoke outside is in breach of their human rights.
Cigarettes and tobacco is a perfectly legal vice, their is no real scientific evidence that proves a direct link between secondhand smoke and endangering health.
Go to WWW.FREEDOM2CHOOSE.CO.UK and register your opposition to this unfair treatment of smokers! EMAIL: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,The Smoky Bar Kid
Date: 11 May 07 - 10:10 PM

"forcing smokers to smoke outside"

"Cigarettes and tobacco is a perfectly legal vice"




yeah.. you're right..

the new laws still don't go far enough to protect the rest of us !



you do seem like the kind of selfish idiot [in denial!?]

I often see sat on public benches around the shops in town..

lit fag in mouth,

while cradling/feeding babies and toddlers..



ps.. "EMAIL: [e-mail]"


thanks.. I most certainly will !!!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Duplin County Smoker
Date: 12 May 07 - 01:05 AM

The theory that cigarette smoke kills non-smokers was dreamt up 30 years ago by anti-smoking activists. It's complete rubbish.

---

This copy-paste exceeds our one-screen limit for non-music copy-pastes. See the entire article here (click).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rog Peek
Date: 12 May 07 - 03:11 AM

If someone else has posted this verse here, then apologies:

Cigarettes are a blight on the whole human race
A man is a monkey with one in his face;
Take warning dear friend, take warning dear brother
There's fire on one end, and a fool on the other.

What a pleasure it is when we are in Ireland to be able to go into any bar and not be choked with smoke, roll on July!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 07 - 07:03 AM

The other day I was in a crowded bar, reeking of smoke - I looked around. There were only two people actually smoking. About 40 having to breath it in.

Roll on July.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 12 May 07 - 05:43 PM

On the one hand everyone should have the right to breath clean air but on the other forcing smokers to smoke outside is in breach of their human rights.
So, for me the first hand wins hands down. If people want to smoke, let them sit outside and shiver. They may have a right to kill themselves, but they surely have no right to inflict their disgusting filth on other people.
And I'd love to see who funded the very slick 'freedom2choose' website. Let me see - probably not an oncologist. No, It wouldn't be a tobacco industry lobbyist, by any chance? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 12 May 07 - 06:30 PM

O/K who shall we attack next, that may harm others?
People who drink drive & kill others, we are not very good at that.
People who have no insurance, ditto
People who drive without a licence, ditto.
People who drive while disqualifeid, ditto.
People who take drugs, ditto.
People who sell drugs, ditto.
People who "TWOK", ditto.
People who carry knives, ditto.
Poeple who carry guns, ditto.
People who make bombs, ditto.
people who plant bombs, ditto.
People who deal in hatred, ditto.
No, lets attack the smoker!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 12 May 07 - 06:47 PM

Skipy, you frighten me.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 12 May 07 - 06:52 PM

Tumesmith, I frighten me too! I am sick to F***in death of trying to make a reasonable differance to be constantly constrained for being average, or being in the groups that can be controlled.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 May 07 - 05:27 AM

Virtually all those things you mentioned are already illegal, aren't they skipy? So what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 13 May 07 - 05:32 AM

I don't see why a smoker's desire to smoke should supersede a working man's need to be free of the risk of lung cancer and heart disease.

Long and interesting article here:

Irish Pubs Under Smoke-free Law in Ireland Show 91% Lower Indoor Air Pollution T

A survey of air pollution levels in "Irish pubs" around the world has found that indoor air pollution in authentic Irish pubs in Ireland, where a smoke-free law has been in effect for two years, is 91 percent lower than in "Irish pubs" located in other countries and cities where smoke-free laws do not apply. Researchers from Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH), Roswell Park Cancer Institute and health authorities in Ireland collaborated on the project that assessed air samples from 128 "Irish pubs" in 15 countries in North America, Europe, Australia and Asia.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 May 07 - 11:51 AM

I'd actually have preferred a situation in which it was possible to have smoking rooms available, where people who don't mind a smoky atmosphere, or who wish to smoke, could take their drinks and light up and inhale, with no staff being involved.

I'm sure that if smokers had taken the lead in calling for this, and had combined it with campaigning actively for the rights of their fellow drinkers not to be forced to put up with smoky bars, something like this could have been agreed. But instead they resisted the whole idea of a ban on unrestricted smoking, and these kind of ideas only came up as a last minute grudging compromise.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 May 07 - 05:29 AM

As an ex-smoker with, surprisingly, no problem with people smoking I do find it unfair that there is no-where for smokers to go to indulge their habit in the warm and dry. It was equaly unfair that us non-smokers had no choice at all if we wanted to go in pubs for all those years and I am sure most people would have been quite happy with a compromise of ensuring that the correct percentage of smokers and no-smokers were catered for.

The complete ban that come in to place on The first of July has been helped on it's way by the nonsensical ramblings like those above who feel that the right to smoke takes some sort of precidence over all and sundry. If the pro-lobby had been a little more caring of other people maybe we would not be in this situation now?

And skipy - WTF are you on? As someone said most, if not all, the things you mention are already illegal. Are you suggesting that the government should not try to improve the quality of life for the majority of people until all other criminal activities stop? Ever thought of applying that reason to everyting? Maybe we should never feed anyone because some people don't eat their food? Perhaps all invention and innovation should be banned because some things have caused harm? Maybe we should never pass any new laws in case someone breaks them?

I'll have a pint of whatever it is you are drinking:-)

Cheers

Dave


Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 15 May 07 - 06:26 AM

I have just spent successive weekends in Edinburgh (smoke free bars) and London (which still allows smoking in pubs for another month or two).

Drinking in Edinburgh was a pleasant experience and the Scots - despite their climate seem to have got used to standing outside if they smoke.

The three London pubs I used were awful. One had a no smoking sign with someone stood underneath it smoking.

The faster this law is enforced the better for the non-smokers amongst us.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 07 - 11:24 AM

In Victorian times people used to use smoking rooms, and wear smoking jackets and smoking caps, and there was no assumption that smoking in all circumstances was an acceptable thing to do. The real trouble came in when cigarettes took over from pipes and cigars, which involved an assumption that smoking was a fitting accompaniment to other activities, rather than an activity in itself which involved a kind of withdrawal to a special setting.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:47 PM

I saw a comment first time around that I can't see this time -- something on the lines of...'can you believe the lunatic that wants to ban smoking in the streets in CA..?' Speaking personally, I am that lunatic.......I believe the only place smoking should be legal is in your own home........; if you want to kill yourself, be my guest but don't take me and / or mine with you. I hate seeing some one on the street smoking knowing that when I pass them I will get a lungful of poison..

And then there are the drycleaning bills for having anything worn in the neighborhood of a smoker cleaned........

Plus having lost a dad and a blood uncle to cancer, it does seem a strange choice of activity to me .... to smoke, or not to smoke? No brainer.........

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 May 07 - 03:00 AM

Welcome to the new age. I've been smoking since I was 13 and have absolutely no problem with going outside for a puff. I don't smoke in the house either. I'm not sure if I even know anyone who still smokes in the house. As for smoking rooms. You can keep them. They mostly stink.
One of the nice things is that I smoke 50% less in the wintertime and very rarely do I smoke a whole cigarette in one go except when I'm alone in my own vehicle.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:34 AM

"One of the nice things is that I smoke 50% less in the wintertime and very rarely do I smoke a whole cigarette in one go except when I'm alone in my own vehicle."

Why bother at all then Jim? Seems you're already well down the road to packing it up, why not go the whole hog, save your clothes, your money and your health, and do the rest of us a favour? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: guitar
Date: 18 May 07 - 07:38 AM

I'm a non smoker, and I agree with you, it's sounds daft, but then again I don't to breath in second hand smoke and have it blown across my food, I mean you wouldn't want to eat your dinner in the toilet.
mind you they say that 1,000 people die through sencond hand smoke either a month or a year.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:15 PM

"Why bother at all then Jim? Seems you're already well down the road to packing it up, why not go the whole hog, save your clothes, your money and your health, and do the rest of us a favour? :-)"
Fair enough....
1) I'm addicted. Common sense means nothing in this situation.
2) They got me when I was very young. I don't remember what it's like without them.
3) I rarely smoke my clothes.
4) "and do the rest of us a favour" I never smoke within the vicinity of children. Try to step out of pathways and such so that no-one has to smell it & avoid people after I smoke.
I'm as healthy as a horse and probably have a clearer set of lungs than you would expect. Haven't needed a doctor since I was a child and haven't spent one single penny of the taxpayers money on my health because of it.
The Government however, has made more from my habit than the tobacco companies. I'd be happy if it was illegal.
I smoke 10 cigarettes per day for about five or six months of the year and 20 per day for the rest. That, I'm sad to say, is a far, far cry from quitting.

Check out http://jimbrannigan.com you'll find links to my music there.
If you can HONESTLY tell from my singing, that I smoke, I'll quit before the next album.
Cheers.
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rog Peek
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:33 PM

You sound like a considerate smoker Jim Lad. In my experience, a rare bread.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:45 PM

If people want to smoke tobacco or anything else, that's their business, so long as they don't blow the smoke in my direction in a confined space, if it's tobacco. Prohibitionists who want to take it further than that, and ban the practice in open spaces get up my nose just as much as inconsiderate smokers do.

Outdoors, having a smoker around can in fact be a useful way of keeping off the midges. I have no doubt that when the long overdue ban inside pubs come into force I'm going to find myself choosing to have my drink in the outside smoker's area. (I don't think there's any problem about secondary non-smoking.)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:45 PM

I tried quitting for the first time at 40. Until then, I didn't know that it stunk (even outside). I only have one smoking friend and he's much the same as myself.
The new restrictions have brought with them, a new awareness.
Adios.
Hack!
Splutter!
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 07 - 01:06 PM

I have no doubt that when the long overdue ban inside pubs come into force I'm going to find myself choosing to have my drink in the outside smoker's area. I meant, from time to time, depending on the company.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 May 07 - 01:13 PM

I love the midges bit.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rog Peek
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:33 PM

Like you Jim Lad, I started smoking when I was about 13, and by the time I was 30 I was on around 40 to 50 a day.

I was well hooked, and had tried every which way to give up.

I would describe myself as a worried smoker, frequently worried about what it was doing to my health. The more I worried, the more I smoked......the more I smoked the more I worried and so on. Illogical? Yes, but then I guess that's addiction for you.

People who tell me it's not addictive, I say to them "Next time you're at a wedding you try and make it out of the church before the smokers."

If I didn't have my last cigarette of the day, I would go through my pockets looking for dog ends (for you americans, those are cigarette butts)and if I couldn't find any, I'd be out on the streets looking for a cigarette machine. - Yes in those days, there were cigarette machines in the street and nobody rifled them, my how times have changed.

I'm not a religeous person, but if I had a pain in my chest it was a case of "If it's not cancer God, I promise I'll give up tomorrow."

When I did finally manage to give up, it was absolute hell. As a substitute I sucked menthol&eucalyptus sweets to the point where my mouth was full of ulcers. Then, I went on the Rinstead pastilles, well exceeding the recommended dosage.

In the end, I kicked it for good, that was 30 years ago.

What stopped me starting again? The thought that I never, never, wanted to go through that hell again.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:06 PM

Rog Peek: Heck of a story. Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs!
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:25 PM

Yes indeed!!!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 07 - 07:43 PM

I've always been grateful that when it came to giving up smoking, I just stopped one day, and no problems. That wasn't will power, it's just that the weed affects different people in different ways.

The thing is there's so much gets said and written about what hell it is to give it up, which is obviously true for some people, that I'm sure you have some smokers who are scared to give it up when in fact for them it might be relatively easy.

Never assume it'll be that hard to do anything until you've tried and found it was that hard. That's actually a good rule in life for a lot of things.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:29 PM

I smoked my last cigarette on 5th November 2006, having enrolled in the NHS quit smoking scheme.

It seemed to me that there was little logic in trying to overcome a nicotine addiction by taking diminishing doses of nicotine, essentially what I had done in all previous attempts to quit by gradually cutting down to zero.

I therefore demanded that, provided there were no cogent medical grounds for refusing, my doctor should prescribe Zyban, which contains no nicotine. He reluctantly agreed, on condition that I would stop and consult him if I experienced any side effects.

I had no withdrawal symptoms during eight weeks on Zyban, and no problems whatever when the course came to an end, nor did I suffer any side effects.

Putting this in perspective, I have tried to quit on numerous occasions in the past, and my wife has been forced, more than once, to ask me to continue smoking because I was impossible to live with.


I cannot stress too strongly my recommendation that anyone wishing to quit should try Zyban.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:31 PM

MgofH,
My point is the system will only go after the easy targets, the driver with an indicator bulb out, not the pisshead in a stolen car who has been banned several times but still drives. They will not go after the "pikies", they will not go for the drug dealers, no, just the easy targets who will turn up at court & pay. So now they will go after the smokers!
This law has nothing to do with health, if you can bring down 2 or 3 pubs in every town, 5 or 10 in every city, just one in every village, just how much building land have you got accross the country for "new affordable housing" who is it for! work it out!
Drink & smoking related problems are up in Ireland since the ban, they are going up in Scotland, don't leave it to me to cut & paste, google it!
Just wait until we get get a "our folk club has closed due to the smoking ban, thread"
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 19 May 07 - 09:43 PM

Skipy, dear boy, the rantings of an addict! If you quit and read the above posting a few months later you won't even recognise yourself. I know, I was you once 37 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:27 AM

Wordy, you are missing the point, addict, YES, but I am not bleating about having to smoke outside, I have smoked outside for decades! I am bleating about choice!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:44 AM

Skipy

While you're ranting about choice, perhaps you would like to rant a bit about all of those years non-smokers who wanted to drink in a pub, had no choice but to do it in a smoky room. Now it's our turn!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:17 PM

There is another thread running about the UK laws for allowing children in pubs. Many pubs will only allow them in at 14+, or when eating a meal. Otherwise, if their parents want a drink at the pub, the family move out into the beer garden. This is a great move because childless adults do not necessarly want noisy boisterous children in the pub. (even adults who have managed to leave their children home look forward to a peaceful evening without children around)
With the advent of the smoking ban the children (who currently aren't allowed to stay in the smoky bar) will have the smokers sent outside to join them! This makes sense??

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:19 PM

Could not agree more! & alway have, most pubs have more than one room, I would never dream of lighting up in a non smoking room, so lounge non smoking, bar smoking! Easy, there is a pub a few villages away that works that way & it works very well. However I do know (straight from the landlord) that he is looking to get out as he fears the drop in trade will close the pub and he is the only pub in the village! He holds regular music sessions there with the local morris, so one of many music, song & dance pubs under threat.
The "our club has closed because we lost the pub to the smoking ban" is lurking in the wings, very soon to "enter stage left"
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Shaneo
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:49 PM

Smoking will never be banned , they make too much money from tax sales.
The same can be said for drink.

As for buggery ,let the homosexual lovers answer that , there are a few here.[promoters of that act] disgusting

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:00 PM

Are any posters out there knowledgable about the extent of the new smoking ban? For example, more and more cafes in the UK have a "continental style" seated area on the pavement outside their premises. Will this area be affected by the new ban?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:57 PM

>I>"They will not go after the "pikies"" How about the Yids and the Niggers and the Wops and the Pakis?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 May 07 - 06:22 PM

Mc Of H, How dare you! you are using words that I would never use! so please do not try to use them against me!

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Now, wake up, smell the coffee, get a life & try to see where we are going.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:11 PM

What about   "when they came for 'the pikeys' " ?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:57 AM

MGogH.
Interesting article, strangely though I would just like them to be forced to comply with laws of this land, you know little things like taxing your car, not stealing etc.!
I have no desire to have them gassed or shot!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:28 AM

Don't come the old soldier now, skipy! If smokers would have agreed to have a seperate smoking area in the first place this may not have happened. Not the bar btw - Everyone has to use the bar to get drinks. A smoking room with the smoke vented where it can do no harm was the only sensible route. You know full well that the 'militant' smokers, including those who use evocative anti-nazi propaganda equating smokers to the Jews in Hitlers Germany, are the ones who have left no option but a blanket ban. Those that insisted on the right to smoke anywhere at any time spoiled it for the sensible smoker, like yourself.

As to the political or hidden agenda. Wake up and smell the coffee yourself. How many people smoke? 25%? 30% 35%? Certainly no more. What politician in their right mind is going to alienate about 70% of the population for the sake of the rights of a militant few in a small percentage of the population. None of them. They want votes and this is going to win them. Nothing to do with car tax or theft or pikeys.

Throw any more red herrings in here and you may as well start a kipper smokery while you stand outside...

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:49 AM

A slight aside.
As a smoker, I wouldn't dream of inflicting my habit on others. Particularly in restaurants, or when kids are around.
But, interestingly, my past place of employment had a specific room for us addicts. Lovely place, breeze block walls, photos of diseased lungs etc, etc!!
Fierce air conditioning.
Inhabited mainly by anyone from the MD of the place (regularly, bit of a cigar fan) to the lowest functionary in the building.
And guess what the complaint from the nearby-Non Smoking-offices was?
Not the smell of smoke...(the air con was very efficient!)
No, it was the laughter emanating from a room full of Pariahs!! It had become a great social leveller.
United in adversity, you could say.

The subsequent demand was for a room were Non Smokers could go, so that they could have fun too! (Go Figure)
Ah Well. I still think it was great to have a place where the boss could meet the Bog cleaner on equal terms, without harming anyone else.

And, having said that, I support the ban, I'll just go outside to indulge. (do it anyway)
I do wonder what the next Chancellor of the Exchequer will make of the loss in taxes.....

Lets see

Ralphie

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:55 AM

skipy,
       Give up! If you ever disagree with the great and the good of mudgat eg McGrath, you will always get the holocaust or slavery thrown at you as an example of what an arsehole you are for existing!
       I smoke. I will simply stop going into pubs.
                   Stealth taxes, the true path!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:06 AM

Read it again! I do NOT, repeat NOT disagree with McGrath at all!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:40 AM

I smoke. I will simply stop going into pubs

Glad the hear it Paco Rabanne - I know 2 people who will take your place after the 1st. July.

John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:00 AM

In other countries, a few years after the ban, here is how it sits:
The long pre-ban debates are nothing but a distant memory. Smoking rooms have been banned because staff have to enter them and they are put at risk. Out door patios which were roofed over and glassed in are being taken down by order of various municipal bylaw enforcers.
Many outdoor patios are now smoke free. In some places, smoking is allowed only in businesses where children are not.
Smokers are generally happy about it. Business is up and the premises are much cleaner. The sales of Ceiling Paint has probably dropped however.
The audience has changed at my club venues and I now see whole families taking up large tables. The room is more full because of it.
The only places where you still find problems are usually in small towns where the owner is putting up too much resistance (to please the customers) and is in fact feeding the flames.
All in all, it's over and most of us are happy with that.
I understand that nobody likes to be told what to do but in all sincerity, choose your battles. This one really isn't worth the hassle.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:20 PM

Smoking rooms have been banned because staff have to enter them

I've never understood that one. Why couldn't the punters just be left to look after themselves, without having staff run around after them and tidy up and fetch and carry for them or whatever? I suppose it might get a bit squalid in there after a while, but only if the smokers actually preferred it that way.