BS: Children's behaviour

Subject: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:59 AM

I've been contributing to the "Spanking or no spanking" thread. To my surprise it has been an amicable, intelligent discussion with little or no unpleasantness. There seem to be a lot of rational, responsible parents out there, so I'd like to hear their comments on this.

Today I was sat waiting in a hospital clinic. Also waiting were a couple with a little boy of about 2 or 3. He was running up and down and doing a lot of shouting...not really naughty, but perhaps just a little too much to be allowed. His parents were telling him, periodically, to be quiet. At one point a nurse went by and out through a door and the child commented that the Lady had gone. The father said "Yes, she's gone to get a big stick to hit you with if you don't be quiet." A little later I heard him say "If you aren't quiet I'll ring Santa and tell him to come and take your computer away"

Comments Please? I've resisted saying what I thought at the time just to see whether others thought the same

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:08 AM

When the child continued to disobey, the father should have given him a quick swat on the bum and sat him down firmly with a few strict words.

Threats are useless and just tell the child that, as a parent, you have no power. Besides that, threats are another form of bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Alec
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Seems,to me at least,that the child being given an honest explanation as to why his behaviour was "Naughty" would have been at least as productive & would not have distressed or confused the child.
Glad I didn't have a dad like that (to be brutally frank.)

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:11 AM

Both the swat on the bum and the threats are bullying. The child should have been with a baby sitter, or at least not in the hospital. Expecting a kid that young to behave for hours at a time is certainly stupid on someone's part.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

Right you are Peace. What you saw, MBS Lynn, was a good example of a clueless parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Alba
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

I agree Alec. Lies don't hack it with me. Why lie when the truth is called for.
Simple enough to talk to the Child and attempt to explain he is in an enviroment where Folk are sick so it is a place where he might want to be a little calmer (use whatever word works)..but...he is a child and I don't know about anyone else but Hospitals are, energy wise, un-nerving places to me anyway and children pick that up. Sounds to me as if this wee bored boy was being.........a wee boy!
Creating a bad boggy Nurse with Sticks and threatening the loss of material things in attempt to "control" is...pathetic.
Yet another grown up with a lot of growing up to do!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:34 AM

I agree, Peace. THere's only one instance where I think a swat is justified -- and that's when a very young child continues to behave in a physically dangerous manner after being warned otherwise, and no other options are available.

For example -- what to do if very young child continues to hit/annoy a dog? Warn child sternly, and if that doesn't succeed then move the dog -- and/or the child -- out of range of one another with another firm warning. And if THAT's impossible or still ineffective, then one quick well-timed swat just as the child tries another swipe at the dog should get his/her attention and make the parent's message a lot more memorable.

But of course, as Peace says, the easiest solution is to use common sense and not allow a very young child within arm's reach of an animal in the first place, until they are old enough to understand how behave safely around an animal.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Scoville
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:38 AM

Heaven forbid the parents would read to him or talk to him to keep him occupied. Kids get bored. If you don't entertain them they're going to entertain themselves by getting out of hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:40 AM

It's easy to judge overwhelmed parents' actions-in-the-moment by the light of our own best sense.

I've intervened when I see things like what MBSLynne described, not to punish the parents but to either give them a break by helping entertain a bored child, or by sympathizing with the parent about how much they hate it when they get that tough-- responding to them with the attitude that OF COURSE they know that isn't the best way to act with their child. You would be surprised how well they do actually know that. I've played many a game of peekaboo with kids in the cashier line who were acting out and whose parents were beyond tense, with the frank gratitude of the parents.

One day, arriving at my sister's city apartment, parking in the alley, I heard a beating going on in a nearby apartment. It echoed all down the alley, "Mama, please, stop! I'm SORRY! That hurts!" I found the apartment-- thank God for back stairs. I knocked until Mama answered. The first thing out of my mouth: "I KNOW you do NOT want ANYONE to EVER hurt your precious baby." She grabbed me in a hug and sobbed, and sobbed, and sobbed. "I'm just so tired," she sobbed. When she had gotten most of it out, we talked about where and how to get help, and I talked to her daughter as well.

I have also called Family Services when it seemed clear that any intervention would only bounce back onto the child (or mother) if I stepped in-- I don't mean to imply we shoud always step in personally.

My point is, parents need help and support, not us preaching at them when they are in no position to take it in. And before they can use ANY form of "Parent Ed," they need to be offered support for how hard it really is to raise kids.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Alec
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:54 AM

You're right of course Susan my "immediate response" posting failed to allow for parents under stress.And ther can be/should be win/win situations for parents & child.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:57 AM

My kids are near perfect on the behavior scale. I always have spoken to them with respect. I would have been prepared to take it down however many notches were needed according to their maturity level, but they just never made that necessary. Reason always worked.   I take no (very little) credit for it. I lucked out. (I say I take very little credit in that I suppose I deserve some for not actively screwing it up with belittling comments to children, as is oh-so-common. "What's wrong with you?" "Are you allowed to say 'no' to me?" I once saw a "credentialed" educator using sarcasm on a pre-schooler – I asked her to think it through.)

I have a friend who has two greatly oversized hell-raising boys who were tormenting all kids and adults from the time they could walk. I saw his complicated behavior and reward charts for each on his refrigerator, developed by their counselor. He told me he was so sick of all the know-it-alls who were convinced that it's all in the rearing technique, and all he needed to do was x, y z. The worst, he said, was a woman with four perfectly behaved children. Then she had a fifth. A hellraiser. She later apologized to my friend for her earlier ignorance.

The guy in our hospital example above is ineffectual, but the more worrisome thing is that he is likely to raise that kid with humour-impairments. If he wants to use that approach, he should have told the kid that if he didn't settle down, he would be sold to a family in China where he would have to make GI-Joes all day long, and not be allowed to play with them.

(P.S. I vote for what Susan said, too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Alba
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:02 AM

My post still stands...stress or no stress veiled threats hidden in lies don't work!

Happy Parenting!:)
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:03 AM

Here's a shorter version--

I would hate, on my worst day as a parent, to meet myself on my best day! Isn't that what parental guilt really is-- judging our own past, stressed behavior by the light of our present calm? Even the "best" parents have that guilt, because NO ONE is a perfect parent, and our society is rigged to a LOUSY structure for raising kids.

I used to laugh and laugh trying to say this line in counseling sessions:

"Of course my kid is ruined for life, but I didn't fall for the isolation like most parents-- no! I made sure I had plenty of help to screw him up this good!" The counselor would answer, "Good for you! Who helped?" And I'd list all the ways schools had oppressed him, the ways others had played their societal roles perfectly resulting in disrespecting my son, etc. (The laughter soon gives way to tears in that kind of session.)

It takes a village to screw up a kid, you know.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:08 AM

It's possible the little boy was the one with the hospital appointment so needed to be there.

I have never believed in making threats I can't carry out. Does no good for the child who will soon learn that the threat is baseless. Making authority figures into bogeymen is a no no as well. At the very least one of the parents could have picked up the child and taken him outside for a few minutes to calm down. I would agree with Scoville - spend time keeping the child occupied. Most waiting rooms these days have books and toys for kids and it isn't difficult to actually bring some of the child's own toys or books along to keep him busy. Problem is, some parents don't play with their children - they let the TV do the babysitting.

Just an aside - why give a 2-3 year old a computer? Surely at that age their are better educational toys to work with!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Scoville
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM

Mine spent a huge amount of time talking to my brother and I reading to us, singing to us, whatever. Yeah, it must have been exhausting. Kids are exhausting. But they were never embarrassed by our behavior, never had any major power struggles, never worried about us destroying something in someone else's house or office.


We had a woman in our vet's office a few years ago who sat like a bag of sand while her kids harassed the cats, climbed the cat tree, etc. We asked her repeatedly to mind her children--we had books for them to read, etc.--and she'd mumble something at them and then do nothing. I finally had to go physically haul two big boys off of the cat tree (which was not built to hold that much weight and was definitely not safe for children) and then spent twenty minutes showing them our display case of antique medicine bottles and surgical instruments. Then I handed them each a vet supply catalog and sent to see how many of those instruments they could find for sale, which kept them busy for a surprisingly long time. The woman looked like she thought I was her fairy godmother. But for goodness' sake, do you have to have four of them before you figure out you can't manage that many? These weren't toddlers--they were old enough to know how to mind themselves if they had ever been taught or if she had bothered to show them something interesting to do that wasn't a hazard.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:48 PM

Whenever a child is "misbehaving" in public it's usually because the parents are not engaging with the child. Small children need love and attention ALL the time - they simply don't know how to respond to being left to their own devices. I've always regretted that parenthood is not a meritocracy, but that's a whole new thread.......

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM

This might be a good place to tell about something that still bothers me.

I was cutting through a park where there was a small family playing. The mother had the two little girls over by the swings maybe 20 feet from where their dog, an Australian shepherd, was tied.

The older boy- maybe 7 - was hitting the dog with a stick, not hard but persistently and enough so that the dog cowered.

I stopped by the boy and said, Oh, no, don't hit the dog. Don't hit the dog.

He mumbled, It's my dog.

I said, If you hit the dog, it won't trust people, and it's important to trust people.

I stood there a moment longer. The mother said and did nothing, and I finally went on.

What would you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Bagpuss
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:08 PM

Mostly I stick to consequences that I know I can carry through - eg losing treats, not getting a bedtime story etc, but I must admit I have to use reverse psychology on my 3 year old when he won't come and get ready to go out.

Example - he loves nursery, but if I tell him he has to come and put his shoes on to go to nursery, he always says he doesn't want to go. So, I pick up the phone and tell him I am calling the teacher to say he is not coming and he immediately runs to get his shoes.

Also short of physically picking him up and carrying him, the only way I can get him to come sometimes when we are out is to say that I am going without him, and pretend to start leaving the shop, or wherever. It sounds cruel, but as he comes running and shouting, "wait for me", he is always laughing or smiling, never worried I would actually leave him. Its just a sort of ritual we go through.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:38 PM

I'm with the folks who say the parents should have been doing something to entertain the boy. 2 and 3 year olds can't sit still in a waiting room for any length of time. It's best to bring some things along, maybe they didn't have a chance to do this but even so, there are things you can do. Empty threats are not the answer. Sort of like crying wolf.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:46 PM

I never cease to be amazed at how badly behaved many children are..parents have . some of them, have a lot to answer for. I truly resent the assumption that everyone must think that badly behaved children are "cute".

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: RangerSteve
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 01:46 PM

Telling the kid that the nurse was going to get a stick to hit him was way out of line, too. Hospitals can be scary enough when you're a patient. The kid may be a patient one day, and he needs to feel comfortable, not terrified of the nurses and doctors. As a former cop, I had a lot of parents come up to me with unruly kids and say something like "Tell him what you do to bad little boys". I assume the answer they wanted was "I take them to jail". My answer always was "I arrest their parents for not being able to properly raise their kids". I didn't make any friends that way, but I refuse play the roll of boogey man for parents that can't reprimand their own kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:31 PM

I like the idea that whacking your kid is less like bullying than threatening them...

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:34 PM

In a Child Care career spanning thirty years, I was described by children I cared for as 'Firm but fair'. I once hit a child, very early in my career but felt so bad about it I never did it again, after all, who am I to hit anyone...who has the right to hit anyone when the example you set is that it is O.K to hit someone who is out of line. Even with children who have only just reached the cognitive understanding stage...it is possible to calmly reason with them and to ...wait for the word....'Negotiate'. Many adults believe that they have to be in control of their children but I truly believe that you have to convince a child that he/she needs to be in control of their own actions...to be responsible. If you set an example of adult irresponsibility...how can you expect a child to behave well. If you shout and hit...it must be O.K because you are the parent.
Talk to them...shout at them (minimally) when necessary...that is when really necessary and not when you are out of control yourself.
Never tell a child they are naughty...you may well reinforce thoughts they have of things that they do, but will come to believe they are a naughty child. Always confront the behaviour WITH the child not just confronting a child by shouting at them...the behaviour should be the target for change not the child.
Praise kids when they are doing well...treat them..love them and reap the rewards.
Why do kids love other peoples mums and sometimes dads and show them more respect than you....because they carefully deal with your child instead of jumping on them when they do something out of line. How do you handle other peoples children and do your own kids not deserve the same respect and treatment...would you hit your friends child?
I apologise if the above seem like instructions...I meant them as suggestions because they mostly worked for me...... Try following the example of the people you know your child really has respect for and behaves for... they are doing something different to you and it seems to work.
I hope some of what I have said my be helpful to anyone who sees some sense in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM

Here is a timely event:

"Julie and Gerry Kulesza, who were headed home to Boston on Jan. 14 from Fort Myers, said they just needed a little more time to calm their daughter, Elly.

"We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything," Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.

"The Kuleszas said they told a flight attendant they had paid for their daughter's seat, but asked whether she could sit in her mother's lap. The request was denied.

"She was removed because "she was climbing under the seat and hitting the parents and wouldn't get in her seat" during boarding, Graham-Weaver said."

More of the Story

Frankly, I don't blame the airline at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:10 PM

As to your dog story, Ebbie: I think you did just the right amount. Can't change the world in one fell swoop. Frustrating as that must have been.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:22 PM

Ok...here's what I thought at the time. The child wasn't really being naughty, he was being a little boy, but he should have been controlled in some way. A smack wouldn't have been appropriate. Like most of you I thought, and said to my husband, that a child of that age is not difficult to keep occupied, especially when all you are doing yourself is sitting in the waiting room. Reading to him or playing a quiet game of some sort with him would have benefited child, parents, and eveyone else. When I was little and we were anywhere without toys etc, my Mum used to get me doing the expressions game. She used to say "Look angry" or "Look sad" or tired or happy or any of a number of emotions and I had to make the expressions. I loved it.

I was quite annoyed by the threats, particularly the one about the big stick. And yes, jacqui, my thought about the computer was "What on earth has a 2/3 year old got a computer for?"

Kendall...clueless parents were exactly what they were.

Thanks for the comments, I just wanted to see if you guys thought the same as I did

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

What is wrong with picking up and carrying a three-year old who won't get ready for nursery school. I am definitely of the pick them up and transport them school of though. Also turn them upside down sometimes...it does wonders. Don't shake of course. Tip gently. A child has to know that you mean what you say. Say it, mean it and enforce it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:44 PM

Regarding the computer: It might be a Leapster or some other electronic gizmo that they refer to as a computer, not an actual computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:29 PM

If you had known anything about the lives and background of those parents, perhaps you would have been impressed that they had it together enough to feed and clothe their child and actually get themselves and him to the clinic to deal with whatever they had to deal with. That might have been a real accomplishment for them. There are people out there who grew up in hell and have lived most of their lives in hell and they're struggling with everything they've got to keep from sliding back into hell - cut them some slack, and, as a couple of posters have suggested, if they seem ineffectual in dealing with their kids, try to figure out how to help, and maybe teach them something by example. Maybe no one ever played games with them or read to them or talked to them when they were kids and so those sorts of things don't come naturally to them. What on earth is the point of coming on here and sneering at people who you think are doing a lousy job of parenting? Those people might be doing a real bang-up job compared to the way they were raised, or not raised ...

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

My grandson is three and two months. I watch him full-time. I cajole, play, read, paint, draw, play ball, walk outside, etc. with him and I take him to classes with other kids and their moms/grandmas/etc. three times per week. We usually try to talk with him about the "choices" he makes. What is his "best" choice in a given situation. We don't use it for every little thing, but it does work.

Yesterday at class he was walking away from his teacher and friends, across the gym, acting as though he could not hear me when I told him to stay near/come back.

I spoke to him one more time. No response. I walked over to get my coat and purse and told him to come now as we were leaving. He came running over to me saying "no, no, I want to stay in class." So we had a chat about his choices and how important it is to listen to his teacher. We stayed and had fun.

Today he had to wait with my husband while I was in with the acupuncturist. They'd gone to lunch and come back. He was quiet because we'd explained to him the need for quietness and he sat down and looked at a book for about fifteen minutes, no problem.

Diversion is a wonderful thing with young children. Just as in training pets, to stop one behaviour, divert them with some new thing. Of course you don't want to stop all tears, etc. you want them to grow up being able to express themselves, but in the case of the hospital, a quick diversion, playing peek-a-boo (i do that, too, Susan!) sitting with them and a book, crayons and paper or even giving them a cracker, etc. would have been better. Parents have to watch their choices, too.

Mary, I cannot lift Morgan; he weighs too much for me, so IF he wants to go to class he has to show me he is ready and willing.:-)

Once in a great while, I do lose my temper, get grouchy, and even raise my voice. He is a smart kid and quite able to express himself, his pleasure, sadness and anger. I get told, "Mama don't talk like that." Then we both calm down, talk it over and agree to be "nicer." I also give lots and lots of positive reinforcement and ya know what? He's picking it up, doing the same thing back to us, telling me "good catch" when I grab the ball or his mom, "good job!" It is SO much fun!

As to computers. I was all for none and no tv in his life at least until 5 or 6, but that's a battle i lost. It is balanced. he is brilliant on it and has been since he was quite young. He gets to play educational games and watch music, animal, dance, etc. videos, mostly things that have been posted, here, from youtube. He will say, "That's enough, Mama" and walk away from it before I am actually done and that is fine with me. I have finally decided the computer is not a horrible thing...it just has to be balanced with physical activity, books, singing, playing instruments, seeing friends, studying hands-on, i.e. pencil and paper, etc, etc,.

Today, I was working on the computer. He asked to play a game on it and I told him no. BUT, I did bring up the midi for Walzting with bears and told him I'd learned a new song to sing to him. As soon as I started the midi and began to sing he ran from the room. I was wondering why until he came back in with the baritone uke, sat down and started to pluck it as I sang. That led to him getting the autoharp and plucked psaltery, asking for my pickbag and luring me away from my work. We had a blast.

It doesn't always work, but we use "time out" more than anything. You have to mean it and be consistent, as well as inventive if you are not at home where the usual seat and timer are available, but it still works.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:05 PM

Guest,meself, we cross-posted. You are absolutely right about what those parents may have accomplished with no background of their own. I am always reluctant to step in, but I don't have a problem engaging a child as Susan mentioned. Also, as someone else said, perhaps the child was the one who needed to be there. Most parents do not have much of a support system. It is sometimes impossible or too costly to make arrangements to NOT bring them with them to wherever. Also, if it was an emergency which brought them there, there may have been no time for planning anything else.

I don't agree with what the parents did, though.

If I give a warning, it is one I will carry out, no one else, and my grandson knows it, as in time out, calling his mom, taking something away until his behaviour improves.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:08 PM

And people ask why I stopped at one child....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Alba
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:17 PM

and then there is this.........

Child's behaviour gets family thrown off flight!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:22 PM

Just before I moved to Maine I was in a local shopping mall. A couple went y me with a little bot, maybe four, who was obviously exhausted and therefore cranky. To my horror, they told him to shut up or they would leave - and then they did. They left him screaming in the store while they went out to the main mall.

I took him by the hand and asked what was wrong. He stopped crying and cuddled up to me. When he was quiet, I went outside debating whether or not to call the police. The couple was out in the main mall waiting for this tiny child to come out.

Babies are kidnapped from shopping malls all the time. I could have walked him out another exit and been gone.

He walked hand in hand with me to his parents who were mortified that I had gotten involved. I spoke carefully and kindly to them about how tired the boy was just as they were. And about how fast he would grow up and not need them. The father picked the child up and seemed to have gottent he message. There was no hint that the boy was going to be punished for this.

I just do not understand.

On another occasion I saw a woman slap a two year old HARD becaus ethe baby was cranky and she wanted to try on clothes. She and her mother were shouting at this poor baby. At the register Grandma raised her hand to strike the child again. LOUD and CLEAR i announced "If you touch that child again I will call the police." She backed off fast and shrank from my glare. Then a number of women around joined in my warning but not before I spoke up.

Then we wonder why kids can get so screwed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:29 PM

they fuck you up your mum and dad

(can't remember who but may be e e cummings)

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Marion
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:33 PM

Good post RangerSteve! Encouraging kids to be afraid of nurses, doctors, etc. is a terrible idea. Not only does it mean that medical care is more emotionally traumatic for the kids, but the fearfulness itself makes the care more difficult. Vital signs are harder to interpret properly; it's harder or impossible to do parts of the physical exam; or a children may need sedation or restraint for a procedure that they could have handled if they weren't scared.

Pediatric hospital wards often designate one nurse to do all the needles/IVs so the nurse doing most of the patient's care won't be seen as the bad guy. Or, they take patients to a separate room to do any kind of treatment so that kids won't be afraid of their hospital beds.

Marion (five months away from being an RN)

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:39 PM

If you haven't had an ADHD child or an Autistic child, then you are talking a load of bollocks.

How do any of you know anything about that child. How can you presume that the parents are bad parents.

I am very strong on morality and I and my wife have, even against all odds, turned our children into decent children, who do not swear and are not agressive to other children. They are 11 and 15 now.

I can rememeber (and I will never ever forget) my family (Father/Mother/Brothers telling us that we were bad parents becuase we couldn't control our children. We were at the end of out wits trying so hard to deal with their issues.

Its only when we had both of them diagnosed did we see any change in our families behaviour to us. When we needed help from our family, we didn't get it and I will never ever forget that.

So before you judge people, take time to wonder if you know what the hell you are taklking about or know about.

My children have been a pain in the arse becuase they can never sit still and get hyped up and my autistic daughter can't always handle normal people, becuase of their illnesses, but that doesn't make them naughty or doesn't make the parents bad parents.

One thing that amazes me, is they have never ever been in trouble.

i will get my coat.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:48 PM

Sorry I didn't say that we have an ADHD and an Autistic Daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:02 PM

My stepson blames me and his late mother for his bad teeth. We took him to the ortodontist. We explained the prescribed treatment. Repeatedly. We explained the consequences of not observing the treatment. Repeatedly. He chose to remove the correctional bands.

Now he says we were skanky hippies and should have MADE him doas he was told.

He may be right.

He was about 10.


Kids of 3 or are wholly irrational. How do you train an animal? Treats and punishment. That's what they are and the younger the worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:27 PM

It was Larkin, Liz.

I only remember because it doesnt seem like a 'typical' Larkin poem, & because of his job at Hull University for many years.

"They fuck you up, your Mum and Dad,
They may not mean to, but they do,
They fill you with the faults they had,
And add some extra, just for you"

...thats the only verse I remember!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:29 PM

many years ago I worked in a grocery store. One day I was standing in an aisle, when a mother with a boy about 5-6 came by. He had a cowboy outfit on, with a cap gun in a holster. He looked up at me and said, "I'm gonna shoot you!"...I looked down and replied, "Oh, you are?"...."Yeah!" he said,.....and hauled off and kicked me in the shin!

His mother IMMEDIATELY took in the situation and told him....."Now, Jeffrey, don't do that..."...in the weakest little voice I can imagine. I moved away...


Later, I was in a checkstand, when who should show up in my line but Cowboy Jeffery & Mom....she started unloading groceries on the belt, and Jeffrey, bless his little heart, climbed UP...onto the moving belt..and began pushing the various items past me...faster than I could check them..(this was way before scanners). Mother, once again on the alert, admonished the little brat her little darling, "Now, Jeffrey, please behave..".
   Something came over me, and I stepped around the end, picked him up under the arms and set him firmly on the floor, saying, "you can't do that...stay down here!"
He stared up at me with BIG eyes and his mouth open...I think NO one had ever told him "NO!" firmly before. I went back to checking, thinking.."Now, I've done it...Mom is gonna get me fired...", but she never raised an eyebrow. She seemed glad to let someone else...anyone...deal with it all.

Obviously, I don't recommend taking action with other folks kids as a rule...but I have seen similar cases where the kids simply had learned..(and kids learn fast)..that they could push the limits.
......I have often wished I could have said what I wanted to Jeffrey's mom, as SHE was the source of the problem. It's a good thing all that happened when I was about 22...at 3 times that, I might have said what I thought....

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:31 PM

Sorry I was so glib.

Most children respond very well to diversion.

I cringe when I hear parents threaten their kids. The kid soon learns that the parents never follow through and the behaviour continues.

Everyone brings to parenting their own set of rules. Those rules change depending on the child but when the chips are down, isn't it amazing to watch yourself reverting to the same method your parents used? My mother used to say cruel things to me. The day I said something cruel to my daughter, I cried for hours. Its not easy to be a parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:50 AM

No-one ever said that bringing up kids is easy but I think there is truth in the saying 'You spend the first part of your cognitive years being bugged to death by your parents and the rest being bugged to death by your kids....I guess we all have to handle things in the best ways possible using knowledge gained from others unless we are experienced.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:51 AM

Lots of good posts, by and large. Some I disagree with. Peace, you were spot on that the parents were clueless. Ranger Steve, right on.

Let's assume that those parents were unable to get someone to mind their charge and he had to accompany them to the hospital. From the pusillaminous utterences you get a very clear clue as to what parenting skills these folks had: NONE. Outrageous threats that even a three year old could see would never be carried out. Just a little verbal dance and business as usual. That is to say that the parents had abdicated their parental responsibilities.

As I said in the spank/nospank thread lack of discipline, appeasement, empty threats and the like proves to your child that YOU DON'T CARE about him. You don't love him.

Further proof of these clods indifference is that they didn't care about the other people around them and what THEIR condition(s) may be. and they were perfectly willing to make a boogey man out of Santa Claus and a Witch out of the nurse, just so they would not be percieved as the real bad guys in the situation.

One parent simply taking the child out side to play or walk on the grounds would have been a sufficient and caring resolution to the scenario. Many other creative and caring resolutions could be advanced. These people were clueless and unfortunately there are many who are taking the same path with regards to childrearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:34 AM

As far as the computer goes, my children started at that sort of age with a program called "Fun school" but we would not have thought of getting them their own computer. I persoanlly feel that buying children very expensive things for birthdays and Christmases gives them the wrong messages. Especially since a lot of it is more to "Keep up with the Joneses" than anything else.

GUEST, I don't believe I was sneering. Hard for me to teach by example as I had no children with me.

Villan, I don'd in any way believe this child had Autism or any of the other related conditions. As I said, he wasn't really being naughty, just normal (and bored). Would the child being autistic have made it ok for the father to threaten him with a nurse and a big stick?

I have to say that the parents weren't getting wound up or angry. The threats were made in a perfectly conversational tone of voice. It's not that they'd tried to make him behave and been ignored or anything

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:06 AM

"What is wrong with picking up and carrying a three-year old who won't get ready for nursery school. I am definitely of the pick them up and transport them school of thought."

Because then it takes 3 hours to get ready instead of 5 minutes! And it is a bit difficult to pick up and carry a reluctant child to nursery when you are also trying to push his baby brother in a pushchair.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:10 AM

You are right Guest, my younger child is 11. Depends what you class as expensive/inexpensive I guess. I have to say that my daughter was reading this thread over my shoulder this morning and said in horror "A computer for a 3 year old??!"

The mother of two of my children's contemporaries at school was working overtime to buy her son, then aged 10, £1000 worth of quad-bike for Christmas. The child would have been far better to have her time. She was getting it because 'other kids had them'. The particular child and his sister were given 'things' of quite high value on a regular basis and valued them not the slightest.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:27 AM

"GUEST, I don't believe I was sneering. Hard for me to teach by example as I had no children with me."

I wasn't directly my remarks particularly at you and the specific situation you described - there were about thirty posts between yours and mine, some of them describing related situations, and some of them not entirely devoid of contempt.

What I meant by the idea of "teaching by example" is, for example, the possibility of engaging the annoying child in some little game - even if it's not your child, and the parents witnessing how their child can be dealt with in a positive way. It takes a village, etc. (I'm talking in general way; don't take this as some kind of personal attack).

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:28 AM

to get back to the wild little boy in the hospital, who was the subject of the beginning of this thread -

I once knew the dad of an obstreperous two-year old. When she was getting out of line he didn't say something vague like "Calm down" or "Knock it off!"

He'd say, "That's too loud, Holly." That way she knew what he wanted and who he was talking to.

Since then I have also learned that it is much easier on everyone if you tell what you want rather than tell the child what you object to. For example, instead of saying, "Don't climb on the dining room table," say "You may play on the floor or on the couch." Naturally there are times when this won't work, but as a general principle, it makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 09:57 AM

I have a fear of children falling from shopping carts. Too many parents pile children into the cart, or when they're in the child seat don't restrain them. Children DIE falling from carts on to the linoeleum-covered concrete floors. A friend wasn't fast enough with her 9-month-old who managed to fall from the child seat. She was lucky she only broke her leg.

In stores I have lunged to stop children from standing in that child seat and caught parents' eyes, reminding them the kids need to sit. I've told children to sit down, and I can even say it in Spanish, though I only know a few phrases, learned from my Puerto Rican ex. I sometimes just remind them that the floors are concrete and I invoke my friend's bad example--"it could be worse than a broken leg." There was one day at the checkstand when I stopped a toddler from pitching out and the mother scolded me for taking her to task in caring for her child. I think I asked if she expects her child to survive childhood with her. She was so worried about how SHE looked that she would disregard the safety of her child.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Gizmo
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM

I agree with The Villain about autism - sorry Lynne - but there are different types.

My son was like that at the age of 2 - 3. Nothing could stop him running up and down corridors, waiting for him to have his next check-up at the hospital. No amount of distraction, playing games etc would work - he bacame fixed and then acted like a twister in human form. Admittedly at that age, if he was really bad I would pick him up and hold him tight - something he really hated, but he learnt slowly that I would let him go when he had calmed down.

Unfortunately as he got bigger and bigger - now 10, still undiagnosed (another long story) - He STILL gets his moments. As far as the therapists are aware, until he gets further diagnosis, he seems to be a cross between ADHD and aspergers, but displays the symptoms at the innappropriate times i.e. an ADHD response, when most aspergers would respond differently, then act like aspergers when most ADHD kids would display something else.

I often am at my wits end, and my son has no sweets, never any fizzy drinks, no fruit squash, and only occasionaly allowed pure fruit juice. Tiredness gets him hyper, as well as any change. His modes are similar to a drunk person, he always slurrs his words and pronounces them thickly (usually he has good diction) then he will giggle and be slightly merry, cries alot and is extremely emotional, and the other one is the worst - the loud mouthed agressive one. He can get violent with the latter mode.

Sometimes parents are at their wits end, and although never show it to the outside world - are at breaking point inside. Many times have I been alone in that situation, a child running around and no amount of anything will stop him. You feel as a parent that you should say something - anything to the kid, because pre-diagnosis - you don't know what causes this behaviour, and the guilt that you're a bad parent weighs incredibly heavily.

The magic you should do x y z book never seems to work for everyone. Sometimes the parents need help - but can't get it until it is very, very bad.

Everyone loses in these situations, and the guilt I have racked up about how I may have failed my children,certainly give me sleepless nights. I will not know how they fair until they are adults. Thats a few years away yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,parent
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:29 PM

Gizmo that is one hell of a post, it left me drained reading it, i admire how you do cope and can not even begin to imagine how I would fare in your shoes.

A drama shown on UK TV recently, based on a true story of an autistic boy , was an excellent way to get across the message to the rest of us that kids acting 'naughty' are not always doing so deliberately.

With very young children of my own I do not join in with the tutting when a child plays up in a supermarket queue, but I have seen many that do.

I wish you and your family all the very best and hope a diagnosis that can help is reached for your son.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Rasener
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:31 PM

Gizmo
I am with you 100% The bells were ringing as I read your post.

Unfortunately if you have never experienced it, you never know how bad it is.

I remember having to phone a help line in the middle of the night, just for support, becuase I couldn't hack it anymore with my daughter. I had severe lack of sleep and was trying to hold a day job down. It was horrendous.

Incidentally it is very interesting about the ADHD/Aspergers situation. That is something they test for if you are diagnosed with ADHD. My daughter had mild traits of Aspergers, but not bad enough to diagnose her with Aspbergers. I occasioanally see things happen with her and think, Blimey that is as bad if not worse than my Autistic daughter. Incidentally, she knows that she has ADHD, but she doesn't know that the Aspergers part is there. She would be mortified if she knew.

What a lot of people don't know, is the effect it has on married life. We vowed we would get through it together, but what a price.

Keep at it Gizmo :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:10 PM

Sorry Guest, meself, I thought you were referring to me starting the thread in the first place.

I still don't think this child was autistic or anything like it. I do realize that there are various types and it's not necessarily possible to spot it from an outsiders point of view, but this child wasn't really even being particularly naughty. He just needed a bit more control than he was getting.

I really feel for you guys. I have seen children with varying degrees of ADHS in the school where I am a Governor and it must be devastating to be in that situation.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:43 PM

Part of your job as a parent is teaching kids how to behave in public/around other people. If you don't, you're not doing your job and are shortchanging the kid. It's not doing him/her any favours by allowing him/her to grow up to be someone people hate having around.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:45 PM

MBSLynne: Just looked back at my post, and I see how you would take it that way - I did start it off referring specifically to your post, and then became more general - in my own mind at least -

Parenting can be an extremely difficult job ... There was a young man near here just recently convicted of assault for having broken the leg of his two-year-old daughter - it was the middle of the night and she had been bawling for hours; he is a working guy, was tired, alone with her and at his wit's end, and just lost it - no history of violence, no police record, etc. - prosecutor was calling for a prison sentence of several years, haven't heard a report on sentencing yet ... But I think many parents hearing the story must have thought, there but for the grace of God ...

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:09 AM

Yes I think we've all been close at some time or another. I bet the man was prepared to throw himself off a cliff afterwards. I can remember thinking as I threw a screaming child into it's cot after hours of difficulties with it, how easy it must be to slip over the line into actually hitting it, not with the purpose of training or teaching, but just out of being at the end of one's tether. Of course some people, due to many factors, have less control over slipping over that line, than others. It's part of why Kendal is right on the "Spank or no spank" thread when he says "Never hit in anger". It's just that sometimes it#s not so easy not to.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:50 AM

Hey! I agree with everyone...simply because we don't know the parents mentioned at the start of the thread and the rest of life is full of so many variables who are we to judge. Luckily (no I don't think luck came into it) both MBS Lynne and myself have pretty damn good children. No coincidence that they were all brought up in the folk world and used to knowing when to be neither seen nor heard under a pub table. They also knew that their time would come when they would be the centre of attention again.
Smacks? Hmm..I always thought they should be used, but in moderation and hopefully not in anger, but my little blighter never needed any!! (Thanks T.)

Final thought, as has come out on this thread...Parenting is probably the most continuing challenge we take on in life. But we go into it so unprepared.
A.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:01 AM

From a film (possibly 'Parenthood' with Steve Martin) and probably mis-remembered:

You need lessons to drive a car, but it seems any ol' person can be a parent.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:50 AM

And sometimes you are struggling unaided and unadvised and it feels like the end of the world.

Thanks for your vote of confidence for my kids Andy! If they grow up like Toby I'll be well-satisfied

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:29 AM

Ebbie, I know what I would have done. I would have told that clueless mother to take her brat in hand or I would call the police. Animal cruelty is still illegal.

That incident on the plane...I can't imagine anything more like HELL than sitting near people like that! The last time I flew to the UK, there was a clueless mother a few seats ahead with a small child that howled most of the way over there.

None of my kids ever acted like savages at any age. And, I never had to smack them either.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

Small children flying can have terrible ear problems. A boiled sweet is not enough. Nothing but descent will help.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:50 PM

I am horrified at people who put infants in shopping carts. A small can accidentally pushed from a shelf can kill them. Better to have them strapped to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:27 AM

what is a boiled sweet?

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:01 AM

A boiled sweet - the individually wrapped hard sweets that they hand out on planes, especially before descent, the sucking is meant to alleviate pressure in the ears. But believe me I fly once , sometimes twice monthly and children can have the most terrible time. Ninety nine per cent of the time they are fine, but it only takes one child on a plane with ear pressure problems to make a racket that at the time sees interminable, the crew are used to this and given the time they will walk/carry the child about intermittently, if only to give the poor parent a break.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM

So choke instead of scream? Not a great choice. Eating some thing chewy will work. When my children were small, before they were eating solid food, they were nursing. When we flew anywhere I made a point of nursing when the plane took off and landed. The sucking motion keeps their ears in good shape.

I was on a flight from hell with a family in front of me, their 2-year-old in agony. He already had tubes in his ears for infections, and that wasn't enough, he screamed for probably 30-45 minutes after the plane took off. His ears eventually evened out, and the screaming had tired him out so much he slept, but then we had to land. . .

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:06 PM

My friend makes me want to scream in her approach to child rearing. She never even taught her (3) kids their alphabet: that's what school is for, apparently.

They were actually barred from our village pub because they were never under control. Whenever we took our daughter to the pub, we brought books, paper, colouring stuff - and when she was older games, cards, etc. And we all interacted as a family. Nicola and her husband would sit and chat to friends while the kids ran wild. Of course, when the kids got barred she was very cross. "But they're just children. That's how children behave..."

When they went abroad for the first time, the kids were so unruly on the plane that there were complaints from other passengers. One man apparently said, "Your children have ruined my holiday, and it hasn't even started." She found this very funny. I would have been mortified. Again, her mantra: "Well, they're just children - what do people expect...?"

Parameters and discipline. That's what kids need. And sometimes it's the parents who need a spanking.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:36 PM

Ruth
We did and do similar things as you. Our kids take books with them now to read, if we go anywhere.

In your info, it does sound like your friend is so out of order. I think you have to do a lot to be barred from a pub. If ours ever misbehaved they got a rollocking and inveriably we would leave the premises immediately.

She probably needs parenting classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:12 PM

I hasten to add that this is a VERY middle class family of farmers.

I thought I'd add that as sometimes these things are so readily assumed to be drawn on class lines. In my experience, middle class parents are the worst offenders, because they are SO indulgent of their little treasures...

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Gizmo
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:11 PM

I have to agree Ruth, very rarely does social services or schools get involved with unruly middle class children, but the children reared by single parents (especially those on low incomes)are singled out, drawn into a corner with the patronizing

"Are you coping ok?....." and further reviews.

I have met more children unruly for being spoilt and little discipline given, than the children of parents who may shout at their children to get them inline, then the said parents scolded for doing so.

I know many parents with the same attitude as your friend above.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:08 PM

So choke instead of scream? Not a great choice

At some stage stilly the parents have to be responsible for their kids choices...a four year old past the stage of nursing hopefully ( but their lies a whole new thread) can have a boiled sweet or not...their parent knows if they have mastered sucking or not...presumably four year olds who don't know how to suck a sweet have something else supllied by their parents.

The worst kind of child on the plane is the one with parents who are not used to flying...their parents are ill prepared.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:56 AM

My children have never been allowed boiled sweets. Even quite big children have choked on them. In addition, they are probably the worst sweets as far as teeth go since they are just about pure sugar and because they take a long time to suck, come into contact with the teeth for a prolonged period.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:30 AM

Two little boys, age 4 and 5, signed on for piano lessons with me a few weeks ago. I am really enjoying them for the most part -- so smart, quick, enthusiastic, and adorable too. Like two little peas in a pod! They come from a privileged upper middle-class home, go to a private school, absolutely love their music, and Mom loves learning along with them (YIPPEEEE!!! says teacher) In fact everything about their lives appears idyllic, but there's one thing I don't understand. With all the caring and smarts and advantages this parent appears to have, why oh WHY does she allow those two to spend hours on end playing hand-held computer games??

They come in for their lessons clutching their precious "D-S's" (never heard of that before, but they are like tiny little Nintendo units). One flies over to the sofa and settles in for half an hour of digital oblivion, while I teach his brother. Then they switch around - and the first several minutes of the second lesson is usually wasted while #2 urchin comes back down to reality, telling me about every last oh-so-exciting (?) moment of the game he was just playing. (That's when he makes through the lesson at all -- sometimes they are so red-eyed, whiney and restless after being square-eyed and totally "out of it" for half an hour we cut the lesson short, and Mom helps him catch up at home).      

Now, I can see what a great babysitter those things make. The kids don't make a squeak -- hardly move at all with one of those things in hand, leaving Mom free to work away on her lap-top oblivious to everything going on around her as well. What a great way to handle little kids and hospital rooms, airplanes, music studio waiting areas etc, huh?   

NOT! For one thing, all those hours gazing at a screen, no matter how small, is bad for the eyes, the brain, the body and the emotional state. I know this for a fact -- I remember playing a pinball-type video game for hours and hours on end many years ago, determined to beat it. Well I did beat it finally -- but was I happy? No. I was just miserable, cranky, achy, and swore I would NEVER play that or any other stupid video game again. And I haven't. But I'm glad I had that experience -- at least I understood, first-hand, what was going on with my own kids!

My kids wanted to spend ALL of their spare time glued to those games, and they would have if I'd let them! They became quite the gaming experts, winning all the time --- but were they happy?

No. The more time they spent playing, the more their moods would deteriorate and by the time they finally put it down, they'd be just miserable, fighting, cranky, irritable, impossible to be around. It was so predictable!! And they were no pre-schoolers at the time. They were almost 10 when I finally broke down and allowed their step-dad to hook one of those things up to the TV - a mistake I would never make again!

But back to my two little Mozarts-to-be -- they had to reschedule their first four lessons because they were both sick for almost a month they first signed up. Had colds, couldn't seem to get over it. Hmmmm -- I wonder why! Could it be that hours and hours of video-gazing, on a regular basis, is bad for the immune system too?

But I think the last straw finally fell last week. Urchin #2, almost 6 yrs old, had an "accident" on my couch while waiting for his lesson - he was so absorbed in his "D-S", and Mom in her lap-top, that neither one realized what was happening until a certain odour filled the air. Very embarrassing for them, and quite a pain in the you-know for me, having to clean the furniture ... AARRGGHHHH!

I have been considering asking them to please leave the games at home from now on -- better for them, better for me, better for the furniture. But I know it will be like asking them to remove their eye teeth, and I want them to LIKE coming here, and .... and ... oh, what to do what to do!

Anyway, this thread seemed like a great place to safely let off a bit of steam re children and video games. So thanks, Mudcat, and thanks to you all just for reading all this (if you did!)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 07:53 AM

You must decide which is more important to you, and it sounds like it won't be an easy choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:24 AM

All these screen things are so addictive that it takes a strong parent to fight them! We had to restrict our son to so much 'screen time' per day. Now he is unrestricted because he has got into things like rugby, cricket and Morris dancing and spends a lot of time on homework so it's less of a problem. Our daughter was never quite so attached to these things as him. Didn't even watch tv much, though lately she's started doign that more than I'd like so we may have to bring in restrictions there. It is quite difficult to enforce these things though, when it's so easy just to leave them alone and get on with it.

If I were you I'd find a tactful way of saying the games should be left at home. They need to be taught that, if nothing else, they are anti-social and should only be played with in their own homes

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:44 AM

Morris dancing, Lynne? And you're not worried? Oh dear, there's no hope for him now ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:46 PM

What would be wrong about informing the children and their parents that the games are counter-productive in the class room and that from now the child who is waiting for his lesson should bring a book if he wants to be entertained meantime? Seems to me that the moods of gaming and playing are not compatible.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:06 PM

There are some developmental benefits to the eye-hand coordination in gaming, and some intellectual skills, so it isn't all negative. But too much of anything isn't good for them, and I set limits on the games when my kids were little. My son spends so much time doing homework now that he has little time for the games, and after chores and practicing his time is his own before bedtime.

I make a point of coming through the room every now and then and watching or inquiring about the game. He has friend over regularly to share in games so they get some good social interactions, and actually, they can be lured away from the video games by waving the RISK box in their general direction. :)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:21 AM

JennyO:
:-)
If you knew my son you'd know that Morris dancing is the least of my worries! He's older than me, sings in pubs and folk places and would rather be at a folk festival than messing about with his school mates. Very weird for a 16 year old! He's actually started a Morris side at school as well as being in an established side. He has even been asked to teach a PE class Morris...he really enjoyed it and so did they!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:41 AM

Sounds like you have an extraordinary son, Lynne - one who's not afraid to be an individual. I'm sure you're very proud of him!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:03 AM

That's good to hear, Lynne. 16, eh?   Wow, at 16 what turned my twins on most were online role-playing (re life-sucking grumble grumble) games and Nirvana.    And for my eldest it was Philosophy, Mathematics and Physics. He liked em better than girls, even! EEEEEKS ... oh, what a wicked whalloping of worries and woes were on my plate back then....

And I can see I haven't changed much. I'm STILL a worrier, and I do need to lighten up. Thanks so much for your thoughts Ebbie, kendall, Lynne - that helped. And you're right, there's nothing wrong with tactfully suggesting (or, uh, requesting) that the games stay home from now on. They are tiring and distracting, and detract from the educational atmosphere I strive to create and maintain as much as possible here, in my home-based music studio.

I do keep an attractive selection of comics, books, and puzzles here for the kids who are waiting - but for most kids these days, such things just can't compete with the lure of a "D-S". And I do have an excellent interactive music theory site on my desk-top, beside the piano -- when those two are a bit more advanced with reading, they'll be able to use it while they are waiting. If they insist on burning out their eyeballs, they may as well do it musically while they're here!

But I have this feeling that after the incident last week, Mom will have worked it out for herself without my "help" before I see them again. She is a fine, thoughtful Mom! So I am going to save myself the time and trouble of a stressful phone call, STOP WORRYING and wait and see. If the problem does not solve itself, I'll deal with it easily, at the appropriate time -- EASILY I say!

ANd Stilly, wow you make it sound so easy. Admirable! And I guess it must BE easier, as you have only one boy at a time to manage .... no-one to fight or compete with over the games .. can you imagine the difference if your son had a twin? ANd a big brother to boot? And the playstation was shared, and hooked up to the one and only family tv in the one and only living room ...

Anyways, I do appreciate your thoughts and suggestions folks. Thanks again!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:19 AM

I worked in schools for 35 years and what a HUGE change there has beeen in the behaviour of children. Parents, many of them at least, have become hostages to the whims of thier children, they are afraid to say no to them, they don;t see much of them, ,,,six hours at school ,five hours at day care. Parents and children have become strangers to each other and it shows because many parents are overcompensating for being absent parents by giving into the kids every whim. It scare me.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM

I worked in schools for 35 years and what a HUGE change there has beeen in the behaviour of children. Parents, many of them at least, have become hostages to the whims of thier children, they are afraid to say no to them...

This is my 29th year as a private music teacher, and I do know, very well, where you're coming from GUEST. I'm just so glad I finally took Mooh's advice and changed my studio polices last year regarding payments, missed lessons and termination of lesson agreement. (THank you SO MUCH again, Mooh, if you're reading this!   :-)

The financial hits I used to take on a regular basis, as parents catered to the fleeting whims and fancies of their little darlings -- and neglected to pay me for the resulting no-shows and last-minute cancellations -- became just plain staggering. And the stress of dealing with at least half a dozen requests for rescheduling per week - for the most ridiculous of excuses too (ie 11-yr old doesn't show up at lesson time. I'm sitting there waiting and wondering, the phone rings and I get "Sorry, she just doesn't feel like getting out of the hot tub right now. So I guess she won't make it to piano tonight. What else can I do with her?!?") - well, it was starting to take a physical toll too, believe me!

I simply cannot accomodate the ever-changing schedules and whims and wishes of 25 or 30 families - there is only one of me, and only so many hours per week available for teaching. So if you want lessons with me, then you will make a commitment for the term, pay me IN ADVANCE and live up to your scheduling agreements - whether Junior happens to "feel like it" or not. Or go elsewhere.

That's my new policy, and I love it!   :-)

(a much happier and richer) daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 04:39 PM

Yes Guuest, you're right and it scares me too. A lot of children of the future will not know how to be in a family situation.

Yes, JennyO I am proud of my son, though his 'individuality' has cause him a lot of problems along the way. When he was at primary school and he absolutley refused to conform to his peer group and in consequence was picked on and ostracised. In his first three years at secondary school it was even worse because, of course, the years from 11-13/14 are the worst for the 'peer group pressure' thing. It worried me a lot, and I spent a lot of time 'phining the school or going in to see them because of the way he was sometimes treated by the other kids. Fortunately I knew he wasn't going to get into smoking, drugs etc because of peer group pressure!

Now that he is 16 and in his second year at the upper school he finally has a really nice group of friends and is well-known at school The other kids have become mature enough (generally) to appreciate his 'eccentricity' and he is quite a popular boy. It's taken a lot of heartache to get here though!

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:54 PM

The most important thing a parent can do is have a regularly scheduled dinner time where everyone in the family is present.

Not only do they have the opportunity to develop their oral language skills (a pre-requisite for reading and writing) but it gives parents the opportunity to impart their values.

Its a small thing really, but research supports this.

You can point your finger at video games, t.v., working moms, divorce, etc. but really its family dinners that make the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:00 PM

MBSLynne: I have a daughter (nearly three) who would crack up if I told her, the nurse was looking for a stick. If the parent was seriously trying to scare the child then that was inappropriate.
With regards to the circumstances though, you just never know what they're going through and the kids do know when you are uncomfortable.
My daughter got her own "Computer" for Christmas.. "V. Smile TV learning System" it comes highly recommended. There are other kids' computers. Some of them don't even plug in. I wouldn't be too alarmed about that.
On a side note: While I was writing, my daughter just drew all over the walls with an ink marker. Sigh!

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:42 PM

My son has an older sister (18) and until this year they shared the video game players and the games. There are several types of players here, but only one of each and they managed very well. Since she is in college now she doesn't have much time for games, but when she does she plays a subscription online computer role playing game (she usually only pays for the blocks of time when she can actually play it, like the month over the christmas holiday). And we gave her brother a duplicate of the PlayStation 2 that they used to share, since she has taken the first one to college where she keeps it at her boyfriend's apartment so they can share.

This evening my son has worked out a strategy to get everything done he needs to do. He did some homework, ate dinner with me, and asked if he goes to sleep early would I wake him at midnight so he can read for school. I told him no, that his uninterrupted sleep would do him more good and I'd get him up early instead. He's reading The Odyssey in his pre-AP English class and he has his classical guitar lesson tomorrow, so he's practicing guitar from now until bedtime then getting up early for more homework. He's passionate about his guitar (which lessons cost me a small fortune and which we pay in advance every month). So I'm not too worried about the time left over that goes to games.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:00 AM

I agree dianavan. I've always made it a rule that we sit down at the table together for our evening meal. There is an alarming number of my kids' friends who don't even have a dining table. They NEVER sit at table for a meal but always in the lounge, usually with the television on. I admit we've lapsed occasionally this winter because we've not been using the central heating much and there is an open fire in the sitting room, but once it's warmer we're back to the dining room.

SRS, yes, that's why I no longer restrict my son's games and tv time. He is into so many things that I have no fear, any more, of him spending all his time on them...but perhaps that's because I MADE him do other things at a time when he otherwise would have done so?

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:54 AM

Our Family has supper together each evening and all are present for Sunday dinner. Although our kids ,three of them, have busy lives they also know that six o clock is supper time and they are always there. There are always one or two extras at table, they love to invite friends and the friends are amazed that we eat together as a family EVERY nihjt. Many of my childrens friends seldom have family meals. More often they take it out of the cooker and eat alone in front of the telly.

Subject: RE: BS: Children's behaviour
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 09:08 AM

We also have a 'traditional' Sunday roast and both my kids have stated their intention of coming home on Sundays for Sunday lunch wherever in the world they get to!

We also sit down together for breakfast on Sunday mornings, though the rest of the week is too hectic to manage that.

A lot of other cultures make a ritual out of shared meals and I think it is one of the many 'ritual' things we severely lack...certainly in England., probably in America too

Love Lynne