BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:52 AM

Several presidents in Latin America have recently reduced their salaries to deflect criticism that they earn too much while many of their citizens live in poverty.

Ortega was just following others. What is the reason to start a thread about him in particular?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM

"If I had to move somewhere..." that's an interesting speculation. Deserves a thread of it's own. So...

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM

"Yeah, the idea of being able to lay back on your ass and get everything free appeals to me too."

Don't choose Canada, then.

Opportunities abound but not much is free.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM

I am yanking your chain LH.

If you had asked in your original post if I thought it is a good idea for politicians in North America to voluntarily lower their sallary like Ortega did, I would agree 100%.

However you made it sound like a challenge so I took up the challenge.

Be careful what you ask for.

If I had to move somewhere, Canada or Australia woud be my first choices but I would have to study Australia a bit more and visit there for an extended time first. Yeah, the idea of being able to lay back on your ass and get everything free appeals to me too. Oops, there I go yanking again. Guess I am just another Yank ;-)

Seriously I think that seeing a politician work for a ridiculous pay leads one to believe they have a hidden agenda of making money from their position on other ways. Low pay amongst beaurucrats and civil servants leads to corruption in the government. I have heard "slip a 50 into your pass port and it gets stamped real quick" several times.

As a side bar, I think I remember a quote from somewhere like:

"he that doesn't work, nor shall he eat"

Who said that?

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

I liked that quote McGrath ... thanks for posting it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:48 PM

Heh! Did I ever say Canada (or any place?) was perfect??? Hell, no! No place is perfect. Still, as places go, it's one of the best. You are again being an absolutist, Dickey, seeing things only in jet black or milk white...no shades of gray allowed...and you don't make me feel one bit insecure about Canada as compared the the dear old USA. I've lived in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM

Dom Helder Camara: 'When I feed the hungry they call me a saint. When I ask why they are hungry they say I am a Communist.'

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

"How much tax do you pay in Canada"

How much in taxes do we pay ... well, an average middle of the road Canadian worker in total pays in the income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, those other little sur-taxes we pay when buying new tires and such .... ummmmm .... around 68% of their gross annual income.


68% !!!! that's 68% taken from my salary that I contribute to our country .... hey LH, and you make old Danny there looks like he is doing the world a favour.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM

Jesus Christ told his followers to sell their worldly possessions and give the proceeds to the poor. Karl Marx had a similar message: "From each according to their ability; to each according to their need."
Was Jesus a Marxist and was Marx a Christian? If they were both alive today would they be friends?

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

"Poverty in Canada is a matter not of starving but rather of begging for food at food banks and shelters. It is the result of an unequal distribution of riches rather than a lack of riches"

I just asked if this is true or no. Seems like a touchy topic to people in Canada. I thought "Canada is safe, prosperous, and free."

How much tax do you pay in Canada?

While searching to find out what the taxes in are, I found this:

"I live in Canada. You can't know how bad it is unless you've lived here a while.

HELP!
Posted by: Chris at April 3, 2005 01:26 PM"

If you want to know where that came from just Google a phrase.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM

Dickey, Canada has elements of socialism- recall the term "social democracy"? We've never claimed Canada is a perfect model of socialism- hell, that slight socialist leaning is almost in spite of ourselves.
In other words: you're being absolutist again.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:10 AM

Guest, Dickey quotes, "It is the result of an unequal distribution of riches rather than a lack of riches...." in regards to Canada.

Actually, thats true of most of the world and when Ortega slashed his salary it symbolized his recognition of that fact.

In Capitalist countries, however, the message is that if you happen to be poor, its your fault or that its akin to a disease that nobody can do anything about. The poor in America are the untouchables.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:35 AM

Why are you judging me LH? All I said was Ortega is a commie and his buddy bud, Ahmadinejad is an asshole that is building his own empire with terrorisim while shouting down with American imperialisim.

Can you judge people by the company they keep?

And I said that you like to glorify the likes of Ortega, Castro, Chavez and "former Marxists". If you think that is good then why are you offended? You should bask in the praise.

Don't you wish we had politicians like this in North America?. Hell No. You can have all you want though. Matter of fact, you can have all of them.

Is this how Socialisim works are just a myth?

An Introduction to Poverty in Canada

...In Canada, people suffer deeply not because the necessities of life barely exist for the population at large -- the state of affairs in many Third World countries -- but because an unequal distribution of income blocks access to Canada's abundance. Poverty in Canada is a matter not of starving but rather of begging for food at food banks and shelters. It is the result of an unequal distribution of riches rather than a lack of riches....
...Aside from a small percentage of the poor population who are living at a bare subsistence level or below, most poor Canadian individuals or families suffer the effects of continual deprivation: a relentless feeling of being boxed in; a feeling that life is dictated by the requirements simply of surviving each day. In this way of life there is no choice, there is no flexibility and, if something unexpected happens -- sickness, accident, family death, fire or theft, a rent increase -- there is no buffer to deal with the emergency. Life is just today, because tomorrow offers no hope.

It is perhaps easiest to comprehend what a day in a life of poverty is like by converting a typical poverty income into a daily dollar amount. Survey information for 1991 indicates that, for an average poor urban family consisting of two adults and two children (and updating for increases in the cost of living to 1994), the daily dollar amount available to each family member is $14.60 (amounting to $21,300 annually). Using daily per-person expenditure estimates based on the Department of Agriculture's Thrifty Nutritious Food Plan ($4.75), Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation data for shelter costs ($7.16) and Montreal Diet Dispensary estimates for clothing ($1.22), the daily cost of bare essentials for survival comes to $13.13.

Out of the remaining $1.47 per person per day, families need to pay for personal care items, household needs, furniture, telephone, transportation, school supplies, health care and so on. There is no money for entertainment, recreation, reading materials, insurance, or charitable or religious donations.

The daily-dollar conversion makes it easy to understand why poor families must cut into their budget for essentials why they must rent substandard housing; why they move often in attempts to save rent; why they purchase poor-quality food with little freshness or variety; why they must supplement their food budget with trips to food banks; why they own a minimum selection of mainly used clothing.

For the poor family, living on $14.60 per person per day is not an exercise in the imagination. It is reality, day after day and with no relief in sight....."

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:18 PM

Well ... now that your getting it .... yes LH, Daniel is not your friend ... and yes ... he is Dickey's friend.


sorry pal. you can't say I didn't try in getting it across to you earlier ...but ... well, what more can I say.



biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:18 PM

So what you're saying is...Ortega isn't my friend after all. He's Dickey's friend! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:59 PM

LH, you have just confirmed the point I was making. A person who holds the values of true socialism to their heart would never put themselves into a situation were they would have to make compromises to the industrial corporate hand fed leaders of the world. Compromising would mean selling out to the controlling corporate capitalists. If they did, they would know that they are selling away the basic needs of the societies they are fighting for.

Can you envision Douglas or Guevara accepting an annual salary 100 times greater than the average citizen of their own country, especially a country whose average citizen is so downtrodden by working in textile factories, picking fruit and coffee in which the efforts of their labour will be sold in in the U.S.A. at such a high price that is unimaginable to them. At such a high price whose profits go into the coffers of some foreign fat corrupt gringo. Can you see Douglas or Guevara driving around their impoverished country in a nice black shiny spanking new Mercedes. Driving to their elaborate weekend hacienda of their own on the coast. Driving those Mercedes through squalid dusty dirt villages with children diseased and running around with no shoes.

No, I don't think Daniel Ortega is that one socialist messiah come to rescue the world's poor from the greedy clutches of corporate capitalism. That salary cut doesn't cut it with me at all.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 07:35 PM

Ah...spoken like a true revolutionary, Number 6. ;-) Yeah, I mostly agree with you. I think do think, though, that every now and then a genuinely idealistic person does somehow manage become a national leader. In that case they necessarily have to compromise themselves to some extent with the great powers that be all around them. They have to turn a blind eye to certain things. Perhaps in that case they feel it is worth it in order to accomplish some other good things at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

Yes, LH, I do like that Ortega lower his wages & those of his ministers, and only wish that it would happen here (USA).

"On Sunday, Iran's president toured Managua and told Ortega he would construct dams and homes, establish factories for everything from buses to bicycles, and improve Nicaragua's drinking water, ports and fishing industry."

"Why dosen't he do that for his country instead of running it down?"

Might you also say the same of the US when we were down there offering the same at the point of a gun, after all isn't an attempted overthrough attempt an offering of a better live?

You also critized Ortega by the company he kept as a political leader. Our leader would do well to follow that example & listen to all who would meet with him maybe then he'd be able to hear.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:23 PM

The social changes that better mankind haven't been made by leaders of the world ... they are the result of the passionate back benchers and social activists that work their butt off (and many put their life on the line) to ensure there is equality, justice, and humane social benefits in this world to all.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM

Aha! Yes, I do get your point. You may well be 100% right about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:00 PM

I didn't say they don't go into politics ... but to have the moxy to become a leader of any industrial nation, and yes even a leader of a socialist nation there is a trait of ambition to sell yourself off to the Big corporations .... Big $money$ controls world politiks .... everyone has a price and if you have ambition and an ego that has to be fulfilled to lead the Big One you sell your soul ... I honestly believe that.

A good example of a politician who was also a great humanitarion, a compassionate person about social needs and would never lead a country t is the late Tommy Douglas ... and another one worth mentioning is Che Guevera ... you get my point.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM

Exactly. There are some political moves which, in themselves, ARE good. And this is one of them. It sends a useful message and sets a good precedent.

Number 6 - your degree of cynicism about politicians is understandable, but is it useful? The reason I ask is that I have known several extremely idealistic and totally well-intentioned and honest people who went into politics. What good is it if you automatically write them all off as decent human beings merely because they are now "politicians"?

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

Yes, its politics, but that doesn't mean it isn't good.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM

Hmmmmmmmm.

That wage reduction .... politics that's all. I agree.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:07 PM

Bush has been in a lot of different vehicles during his presidency. He drove Putin around in a pickup truck in order to present a "folksy" image at the photo-ops. That's just being a politician. I would neither criticize Bush for that nor praise him for it. It's just what politicians do. When the photo-op calls for a big black limousine, they use a big black limousine. When it calls for a pickup truck, they use a pickup truck. I saw a photo once of the Queen of England driving a fork lift truck! (she was showing her solidarity with the workers on a construction site)

Politics, that's all.

You should try being less judgemental of other people, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM

Socialism isn't an ALL-OR-NOTHING proposition, Dickey. I have BOTH socialism AND capitalism in Canada, they both work okay, and I have lots of opportunities here to do whatever I want to. Socialism has NOT deprived me of any opportunities.

You, sir, are an absolutist. It's always all-or-nothing for you. As such, you deal in mythology rather than reality. That is also your problem regarding understanding what I intended in launching this thread.

My only point in launching the thread at all was this: Ortega just reduced his salary by 68% and reduced his ministers' salaries too. I think that's cool. I like it. And you can't do anything about it. ;-)

And it pisses you off, because you would rather that everyone saw Ortega as nothing but evil and wrong, because you think he's a "communist". Like I said, you're an absolutist. It's never shades of gray with you. It's either all black or it's all white. Well, the world just isn't like that. I know that on TV dramas you have the "good guys" and the "bad guys" and that's all there is to it. Real life is not that neatly bisected.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM

The American Capitalist Pig, Bush drove Putin around in his Ford pickup truck.

The benevolent ex-marxist leader of Nicaragua drove the Benevolent Head Shwa of Iran around in his Mercedes.

Social justice at it's best.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:29 AM

You are right pdq .... I don't know of any country that is socialist where the leaders aren't taking the icing off the cake, or as a matter of fact the eating the whole cake itself ... evident in the USSR, where the leaders drove to their luxurious country dachas in limos, evident in the luxury seaside villas of Cuba's leaders, stocked full of soap (a commodity that is hard to find for the citizens of that country), China's leaders (well we know about that), North Korea's leader (too disgusting to go on with that one), our own Canadian Bob Rae when he was the loud honking socialist (New Democrat) leader of the province of Ontario using helicopters to ferry him and his family to their luxury weekend cottage up in the expensive Muskoka Region, Ortega and his Mercedes Benz ... as I said the true socialists at heart, the passionate humanitarians don't become leaders, ambition is not in their souls.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM

trivia: first thread, first line: Don't you wish we had politicians like this in North America?....

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM

The difference is is that opportunity does not exist under socialisim. You get what the other 99% get, no matter how hard you work. Civil rights are a sham and the elite hold all the cards and wealth.

If you don't believe it, try it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:18 AM

pdq, no system is perfect. Capitalism is just as bad, if not worse, in execution: with gross abuse of the environment , brainwashing of the citizenry, and upholding of the wealthy elite.      
/QUOTE/ This thread is about don't you wish we had politicians like Ortega in North America. /ENDQUOTE/
I don't believe you have the right to put words in LH's mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:30 AM

Socialism and Communism both use the same trick. You tell the poorest people that the rich are rotten and that you (as fearless leader) will take their money and give it to the poor. After the revolution, the new leaders keep everything for themselves and the poor go maching to their jobs in the mines. No real change. Different flag, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:11 AM

Ortega, friend (or ass sucker) of Iranian empire builder Ahmadinejad who supports terrorisim, wants to wipe israel off of the map, claims the holocaust never happened, sends Iranians into Iraq to train insurgents to kill Americans, who trains Hezbollah, funds them in an attempt to take over Lebanon, who vows to kill infidels which include Catholics, the same religion that Ortega claims to have now, has cut his salary from 279 times that of the average Nicaraguan to 89 times that of the average Nicaraguan.

However what prevents him from slashing it to 11 times that of the average citizen like the salary of George W Bush?

"On Sunday, Iran's president toured Managua and told Ortega he would construct dams and homes, establish factories for everything from buses to bicycles, and improve Nicaragua's drinking water, ports and fishing industry."

Why dosen't he do that for his country instead of running it down?

Iran then and now by Haleh Anvari Tuesday September 25, 2001 The Guardian

Then: 1976

• Constitutional monarchy under the shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi

• Parliament: Majlis elected by the people but as approved by the shah; senate appointed by the shah

Population 34m;

52% illiterate

Unemployment 2.9%

Average income $100 a month

Exchange rate 70 rials to dollar

Total university graduates 440,000

Newspapers 7

Number of cars in Tehran 700,000

Now:

Population 64m, more than half born after the Islamic revolution;

17% illiterate

Unemployment 12.5%

Average income $60.50 a month

Exchange rate 8,000 rials to the dollar

Total university graduates 4.8m

Newspapers 48 (was 87 before a crackdown)

Number of cars in Tehran 1.73m.

This thread is about don't you wish we had politicians like Ortega in North America.

In light of his past and his present associates, Hell no because Ortrga is sucking up to tyrants that threaten the security of North America.

Can you see Venezuela being given nukes by Iran? Can you see North America being threatened with nukes from Latin America?

Can you see Muslim culture possibly infiltrating Nicaragua? Can you forsee Hezbollah rioting in the streets of Managua trying to take control of the country? Or is that just an attempt to scare people into believing terrorisim is spreading?

Sleep tight LH, you are in no danger at all. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:10 AM

marxxist/shcmarxist, democracy/fiddleerocracy ... I made my statement regarding Ortega's meagre salary decrease and that is that!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:45 AM

I don't particularly glorify either communism or marxists, Dickey. I like democracy and socialism mixed with capitalism, like we already have in much of the western world. But that's not what the thread was about, it was about a voluntary salary reduction. I also like people who stand up to conquering empires, and in the western hemisphere you pretty well have to end up being labelled a "communist" by the USA whenever you do that. Have you noticed? No, probably not, right?

Do I wish that Ortega was prime minister of Canada? Why would I wish that? He's a Nicaraguan. I wish that he was the leader of Nicaragua right now...and he is. If he was a Canadian...yeah, then I'd vote for him in Canada. No problem.

He just reduced his salary by 68%, and I'm impressed by that. Period. That's what the thread is about. I know you'd like it to be about something else, but too bad. I launched the thread and it's about the fact that Ortega reduced his salary, and it was his idea, not somebody else's. I know you want to find a way to make it still look bad and evil somehow, but I don't think you can.

Can you be a "former marxist"? Sure. You can be a former just about anything at all if you decide to. For example, you can even change your sex or get a plastic surgeon to change your face! Imagine how much easier it is to change your political philosophy by a degree or two. It just requires a mind that is capable of digesting a new idea now and then in the light of new experiences. That too may be rare, but I know it's not impossible. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:07 PM

LH:

Why do you glorify Communists and Marxists? Show me where they have ever been successful.

Do you wish that Ortega was the PM of Canada? You seemed to indicate that you wished we had politicians like him in North America.

And if he is so non material why is his salary 76 times that of the average Nicaraguan While Bush's salary is 10.8 times that of the average American? By that measure he makes 7 times more than Bush?

Looks to me like Ortega is hosing them good.

"where the hell do YOU get the right to have any opinion about Nicaragua??? YOU haven't lived there either."

I never said anything about what would be good for the people of Nicaragua. I merely objected to your characterization of Ortega, the Marxist, as being a good person worthy of ruling North America, which I am a citizen of.

As you said, each country is different. What is good for one country is not necessarily good for another country.

Suppose I said "Those poor buggers up there in Canada are so bad off because they have had such capitalistic leaders. What they need is a former Marxist to get things straightened out.";-)

You will deny it but if you like Ortega then you are also endorsing his buddies Castro, Chavez, Ahmadinejad, Evo Morales and Correa that are out to screw the US.

LFH:

How does on become a former Marxist? I think the "former" is referring to the phrase "Former Marxist guerrilla" or "the former Marxist president" used by some news agencys denoting he is no longer a guerrilla or that he was the former marxist president.

Can you offer anything that indicates that he has changed his spots?

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

And voters can't sweep a 'Marxist' leader from power, because they don't have elections.

Some do, some don't, the same as applies with people who adhere to other economic theories.

The fact that Hitler was a vegetarian doesn't mean that vegetarianism is intrinsically undemocratic. In the same way the fact that Stalin and Co claimed to be Marxists doesn't mean that Marxism is intrinsically undemocratic. For that matter, the fact that Pinochet was a devotee of a form of Capitalism doesn't mean that all Capitalists are Pinochets.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

Wouldn't it be nice just to have a healthy debate on just one of these threads in the Cat without the posts disintegrating into people taking shots at one another.

Oh well ... I guess I expect too much.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

Dickey, I have no reason to move to Nicaraugua, nor is it obligatory for anyone to move to a country in order to be permitted to express a positive opinion about it or about something one of its leaders does. If it were obligatory, then I would be permitted to say positive things about only one country at this point: Canada. I lived in the USA once too...but it might have changed in the past 36 years... ;-)

I do not regard your constant harping on where I should live (based on my opinions) to be anymore than empty, meaningless rhetoric.

I shall continue to have opinions about countries I have absolutely no plan to ever move to, I shall continue to have opinions about any damned country I want to on the face of this planet, based on what I know about it and what I read, and there's nothing you can do about it. ;-) Find a better argument than that one, because it's a joke.

If you have to BE a citizen of a country to have a valid opinion about it, Dickey, then where the hell do YOU get the right to have any opinion about Nicaragua??? YOU haven't lived there either.

In other words, "Take off, ya hoser!" ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

Les from Hull,

I'm not trying to pick on you personally, but., you said:

       "...the contras who were trying to bring back the sort of government that Somorza headed..."

More opinion with 'low fact content'. What the Contras did was try to set-up a responsible government and have honest democratic elections. Nicarauga had such government over the last 17 years. Read: after Ortega was voted out.

Also, the answer to the question about "why did Nicaraugua need such a huge army" is to de-stabliize Central America on behalf of the Soviet Union and their operative, Fidel Castro. The army build-up came before the Contras, but I'm sure you already expected that answer.

None of this constitutes support for Samoza anymore than criticism of the current Iraqi government can be considered praise for Saddam Hussein. Ortega, Saddam Hussein, Samosa, Castro, Pol Pot, etc. (ad nauseum) are all bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:36 PM

"Where did I say anything about...?" - how can anyone know anything about what a nameless GUEST ever said or didn't say?

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM

I'm sorry pdq - I meant really that Reagan was supporting the contras who were trying to bring back the sort of government that Somorza headed, but I got confused. At least I can admit when I'm wrong, unlike some others here.

You said "Why did Nicaragua need the fourth largest army on the planet while Ortega was in charge? {it was 2.5 million in a country of less than 7 million}". Where did you come up with such a huge figure? Or is it just unfounded opinion? Anyway people answered this question for you - more or less, because they were at war with people who were supported by the USA.

Dickey - I am not saying anything about Ortega being a Marxist. I'm saying that he's saying he's a former Marxist, like your quote does. I was just amused that you highlighted the word Marxist and not the qualifying adjective 'former'.

In the quote about the army I was refering to pdq, who brought this up.

I think that your abuse has been directed towards Little Hawk. If you don't think that you are being abusive, then it says something more about you than it does about him.

I personally do not trust any politician. It seems that they are a necessary evil, only some are more evil than others. I would not trust any of them, but from what I've read I would rather trust an Ortega than a Samorza.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:20 PM

LFH:

"Dickey - it was good of you to highlight the word Marxist for us. Did it not occur to you to highlight the word 'former' as well? And voters can't sweep a 'Marxist' leader from power, because they don't have elections."

So you are saying he is not a Marxist?

"About this army size. You claim that 2.5 million were serving in the army. So who were they fighting? It would appear that there would be no Nicaraguan males of military age to form an army for the Contras. Time magazine said in 1990 that the Nicaraguan Army was 70,000 strong."

Where did I say anything about an army?

"Personally, I find your tone abusive. If you can't post civilly, with accurate attributions, it's probably doing your argument no good at all."

Where have I been uncivil? Who have I abused? I have linked my information to the source.

I find all there of your charges unfounded.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:20 PM

Now that last might be a useful general principle. But I see few signs that the kind of people who sound off about Ortega or Chavez or Castro from that big country up North exercise it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:05 PM

"If I were a Nicaraguan" There is only one way to determine what you would do if you were a Nicaraguan. Be a Nicaraguan for a while.

Until then you are attempting to speak for Nicaraguans.

This is another example of how you judge what is best for others.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM

Les from Hull sez:

"The wealthy you no doubt refer to would be the former dictator and Reagan puppet Samoza..."

Please explain how that could be when Samoza was deposed in 1979 by a group led by Ortega, and president Reagan took office in JAN 1981!

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

Ortega can be grouped into 'they' McGrath ... he took the most he could get while making the appearance of being altruistic ... basically he had to lower the outrageous high salary of his predecssor, but he still kept a substantial high salary in the long run ... it was pure politikal savvy .... look at the statistics of his current salary as compared to what the average 'joe' in his country makes ... it cannot be argued that his salry is less in compared to the leaders of the western world ... he's part of the gang.

BTW ... just google the info regarding the average salaries if you want to verify the numbers I presented.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

They will take what they can get when it comes to a salary. Ortega... sure he lowered it... To be strictly logical, those two statements are incompatible, if Ortega is included in "they", as it is clearly implied that he is. You can't take all you can get and at the same time take less than you can get.

It seems pretty evident that Ortega is a long way short of perfection, which is something he shares with politicians in general, and indeed with people in general. But in this particular matter of taking a pay cut there is is something that deserves to be emulated by others in the same line of work - and the fact that it undoubtedly will not be deserves to be noted, and should diminish their moral, standing (though in some cases that might be pretty hard to do).

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

What I'm trying to say LH ... the Ghandi's, Martin Luther King's, Jesus, Mother Theresa's of the world would not have become politicians, leaders of political nations ... people that do are deep down trying to satisfy their own self egos.They will take what they can get when it comes to a salary. Ortega did, sure he lowered it, but if he is the true saviour of the miserable, down todden in the world he would have taken less ... he would not be a politikal leader.

Now that could possibly cause some thread drift here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:55 PM

What works in Alliston, Ontario doesn't necessarily mean it will work in Dipper Harbour New Brunswick.

But where ever we live we all call a spade a spade.

Ortego is still a political leader ... as Bob Dylan says "don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters" ... and that just doesn't pertain to the U.S. or to capitalism , to democracy ... greed encompasses all ... if a person is moral, just, humane, compassionate ... the odds are they will not evolve inot politikal leader, it's plain old human nature .... and Ortega is not one that is outside those odds.

That's my say on all of this.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:49 PM

The wealthy you no doubt refer to would be the former dictator and Reagan puppet Samoza and his family and the assets he abandoned when he fled the country. I suppose those things like large estates and houses are a bit difficult to get into a 'plane. I suppose taking an ex-dictator's ill-gotten gains and turning manor houses into schools and estates into collective farms for peasants somehow offends you.

Of course, that starts one thinking about where Senor Samoza got the alleged billion dollar estates from?

Oh and while you're at it, answer the question about the two and a half million strong army.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:43 PM

I would not object to being under Ortega's rule, Dickey. If I were a Nicaraguan I would vote for him without a moment's hesitation. I happen to be a Canadian, I was born in Canada, I have my whole life and my work here, my friends and family here, and I have no particular reason to move to Nicaragua, Australia, Singapore, Denmark, Andorra, Chile, or any other distant place right now.... ;-)

You just don't get it that things are different in different places, and that what works in Podunk, Iowa does not work everywhere...do you?

And I bet you don't get it that not everyone in the world is panting to move to the USA either, do you? You don't live in paradise, Dickey, you live in a society that, like any other, has both good points and bad points.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:40 PM

Nobody got any dirt on Fidel then!!

Some months ago there were allegations made in the American press about Castro.
His reply was "If you can find one dollar in one bank account in my name, I'll resign today"....Viva Fidel!!
He's a man in every sense of the word and folk like Dickey are just as they sound....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:34 PM

There is little,or no point in pasting in a quote without giving an indication where it comes from.

Still less in presenting highly questionable statistics without giving a source.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:36 AM

"Ortega ran for election again, in October 1996 and November 2001, but lost on both occasions to Arnoldo Aleman and Enrique Bolaños respectively. In these elections, a key issue was the allegation of corruption. In Ortega's last days as president, through a series of legislative acts known as "The Piñata", estates that had been seized by the Sandinista government (some valued at millions and even billions US$) became the private property of various FSLN officials, including Ortega himself.

As a good Marxist should, Ortega confiscated billions in land and other property from the wealthy and gave it to, (surprise, surprise) himself!!!

He don't need no steenkin' $38,000 per at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:48 AM

Dickey - it was good of you to highlight the word Marxist for us. Did it not occur to you to highlight the word 'former' as well? And voters can't sweep a 'Marxist' leader from power, because they don't have elections.

About this army size. You claim that 2.5 million were serving in the army. So who were they fighting? It would appear that there would be no Nicaraguan males of military age to form an army for the Contras. Time magazine said in 1990 that the Nicaraguan Army was 70,000 strong.

Personally, I find your tone abusive. If you can't post civilly, with accurate attributions, it's probably doing your argument no good at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:47 AM

"Why did Nicaragua need the fourth largest army on the planet while Ortega was in charge? {it was 2.5 million in a country of less than 7 million)"

2.5 million in a country of less than 7 million?????????????

Attribution, please. I find this difficult to believe.

As far as I know, no country in the most extreme circumstances has had more than about 10% of the population in military service. I would be surprised to find that 2.5 million out of 7 million ever did any military service at all, and they would not have been all servng at the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 03:40 AM

Bush should be forced to pay back all he's earned for the job he's costed US, along with our present congress. Who, BTW, has seen themselves fit enough to consistently raise they wages & benifits over the years while double dipping & then have the nerve to refuse a cost of living increase up until recently only because it may have costed them their necks if they didn't.
Yes, I would like to see more of this in the US.

Please don't tell me to move if I don't like it either.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: heric
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:06 AM

I couldn't be more impressed if he sliced his own celery!

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 12:02 AM

LH: If you think Ortega is great then why would you object to living under his benign rule?

It's like those people that fight the windmills. They say we need them and we have to have them but they must be put somewhere else for someone else to deal with.

Your shades of gray is fuzzy logic.

"Don't you wish we had politicians like this in North America?" Hell no I don't wish it. By asking this question it makes me believe that you wish it. Do you wish it or not?

Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, July 23, 2006; Page
MANAGUA, Nicaragua -- Sixteen years after voters swept Sandinista leader Daniel Ortega from Nicaragua's presidency, the former Marxist icon appears to have his best chance yet for a comeback in elections scheduled for Nov. 5.

Is he a Marxist or not?

Average salary in the US in 2002 was $36,764. The POTUS makes $400,000.

You say Ortega SLASHED his pay to $38,400 and the average in Nicaragua is $430.

Do the math.

Yeah I am weeping for you little buddy. Do an Oswald, move to the workers paradise and see if you return with your tail tucked between your legs instead of perpendicular.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:54 PM

Bush's salary is also rather modest in comparison to what many corporate heads are making.

True enough. But isn't "taking" the right word for that kind of thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:25 PM

By the sounds of it might be for this guy.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:12 PM

No it ain't!

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:58 PM

Oh, quit being so all aloof. you just jealous. But that's okay. It's all good. anything that feeds my ego is all good.

Damn it's snowing!

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:55 PM

Not feeling bad at all ... as I stated it relates to his current salary not the past.

Try again if you have nothing better to do ... but don't expect a reply as it's not worth my effort to prove myself to you.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

So you DID bring it up. You see, I'm good! Even when I'm only half paying attention, I'm good.

So, yes, you got pwned big time, son.

I have that effect on people so don't feel bad--feel terrible. :D

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

Bush's salary is also rather modest in comparison to what many corporate heads are making.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:45 PM

"They also reveal on were he (the socialist saviour) stands next to the leader of the most capitalistic countries in the world. In some ways it reveals somewhat how humble Bush ranks to Ortega in the salary game."

There's the "communist shit" I posted ... nothing to do with the past or ""Sandinistas and the Samozans" ... it has to do with the current salary game.

Go find another thread to hijack.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:45 PM

Yes, and it seems to me that it's a modest salary which no one would be justified in taking offense to in today's world.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:40 PM

>>"Sandinistas and the Samozans" ... not discussing the past here in this thread ... we're discussing Ortega's current capitalistic salary.<<

Sure we are, you were the one who started bringing up the communist shit in the first place (actually I''m too lazy to look but I'm going to pin it on you anyway just because I can) but when you're faced with evidence you can't argue with suddenly we're not talking about that. yes we were and you brought it up. And I just pwned you, baby! PWNED!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:27 PM

Some tasty Samosas

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:20 PM

"Sandinistas and the Samozans" ... not discussing the past here in this thread ... we're discussing Ortega's current capitalistic salary.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:50 PM

There's never been a communist state - communism was at most an aspiration for some future time claimed, pretty insincerely, by parties running repressive societies that can more accurately be described as "state capitalist".

There's no necessary connection between any form of economic system and any form of government. There are some "capitalist" and "socialist" societies which are by and large democratic, and some which are fiercely repressive, and a lot which are somewhere in between. As Russia and China are demonstrating today, abandoning any pretence of socialism or aspirations towards future communism going capitalist in no way means abandoning totalitarianism.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:29 PM

The Samozans were butchers. I'll never forget the image of that 10-year-old girl who had her hands cut off to punish her parents. When did Ortega's govt ever do that?

And of the two--the Sandinistas and the Samozans--which did the US back? Yes, the Samozans.

So sorry dick, pdq, 6 and the rest--I'll take Ortega any day. In your faces, muthafuckas!

ALL HAIL COMMUNISM AND DOWN WITH DEMOCRACY!!!!!

just kidding....or am I?;)

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

My understanding of communism is that they don't have elections, at least not proper ones, because they only allow one political party. But didn't Senor Ortega just win an election? I think you can call him a communist if he bans the opposition parties, or refuses further elections. He didn't ban the one in 1990 when he lost. Until then, he's a democratic socialist, elected democratically by a majority of the voters. Or is that a bad thing too? Reducing your own salary to a more reasonable level sound like the sort of thing a socialist would do.

The Somorza regime was a totalitarian one (a military dictatorship) and one with a poor record of human rights. Now they didn't have elections, as far as I know. It took direct action to get rid of them, which might be a communist sort of thing to do, but what are your options, other than direct action? And it's difficult to put your policies into practice when you have to fight a war against rebels who are funded by the richest country in the world.

Might I be invited to move to Nicaragua? It would be nice to live somewhere where you can elect a socialist government. Greed is ruining this planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:59 PM

Exactly McGrath ... so what is the big shmo about Ortega's salary ... as I said Ortega is just another leader of a country in the big global picture, grabbing what he can get for himself.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:54 PM

So what does Bush need $33,300 a month for? Doesn't have to pay rent for the White House, and I'm sure all his meals are provided. Doesn't have to pay for his cars or his servants...

And that goes for all the others in similar positions.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:48 PM

Whew .... I'm glad we don't have politicians like that in Canada ... the government would have to increase our already high taxes a considerable amount just to pay for their exorbitant salaries!

"You cannot be a politician in one of those countries and do what you have to do for $33/month"
LH ... Never said he should .. but I did say the running of the government is not paid out of his salary ... it is an expense (taxes) paid for by the already poor citizens ... it sure was a drop down from $10k a month to 3K a month ... but he probably had to knowing the U.S. would make it public if he had kept that amount ... but let's face it, he would still live very lavishly if he had brought it down to $1.5K a month. But then again he does have to pay for the expensive scotch, seaside hacienda, Mercedes .... a new image he has to keep up to gain respect of the Americans.

A Mother Theresa he ain't LH.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:46 PM

Why is it, Dickey, that with you everything must be all-or-nothing?   Can you not separate a part of anything from the whole of that thing and rate that part on its own merits? Do you not recognize that there are some good things and some bad things in almost any system?

I never said I needed a Marxist politician in Canada. (we have had some, actually, but they get very few votes) I said that any politician (Marxist or otherwise) who voluntarily reduces his own salary because he thinks it's higher than what he needs is doing something remarkably idealistic, and I admire that. I don't give a damn whether or not he is Marxist. It doesn't matter in regards to his decision to cut his salary. His Marxism is not the point I'm commenting on here.

And as a matter of fact, yes! What is best for people in one situation is NOT necessarily best for people in another situation. It may be. It may not be. Different situations can require different approaches in order to find reasonable solutions to problems. What works in Rome may not work in Persia or Lebanon. That's why they say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 04:13 PM

A. "I'm happy to be in Canada. Canada is safe, prosperous, and free."

B. "Don't you wish we had politicians like this in North America?...."

No I don't wish we politicians like this in North America.

Why would you wish we politicians like this in North America if statement A is true?

Why does a "safe, prosperous, and free." country need a Marxist politician? Please explain.

You seem to be able to judge what is best for other people but what is best for you is something cifferent.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:24 PM

Ortega needed a very large army at the time, pdq, because his country was being very aggressively attacked by well-funded and well-armed agents of the Reagan administration known as "Contras" in another dirty and illegal American bush war (for which the USA was found guilty of aggression by the World Court, by the way). That is no longer the case, fortunately, and Nicaragua no longer needs a huge army. Let's face it, when you're fighting the Roman Empire (reincarnated) you have to raise rather large forces to do it with any hope of survival. ;-)

I would assume that at present, among the next four countries with largest armed forces in the world after America, Russia, and China....North Korea would be one of them. Am I right? I think that Iraq was one of them at one point in the 80's, when Saddam was at his apogee. Other than that, I'm not quite sure who the other three would be or would have been. Where do Turkey, the UK, Iran, and Israel presently stand in the lineup? And are we talking simply the largest armed forces...or the largest armed forces per capita?

Number 6 - My point is simply this: Ortega voluntarily reduced his own salary dramatically as an altruistic gesture of principle. Such altruism is very rare and it is commendable, specially on the part of a political leader. If you think that the president of a third world country faces the same monthly expenses as an ordinary citizen of that country, I think you are mistaken. It is pretty typical of such countries that an average citizen earns something like $33/month or $50/month or something along those lines. You cannot be a politician in one of those countries and do what you have to do for $33/month, unless you are a revolutionary, like Panch Villa or Castro, hiding out in the mountains and launching raids on the rich haciendas to fund your army... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:25 PM

How can you accuse Litle Hawk of dodging a question that you never actually posed, pdq?

That really does sound a pretty implausable statistic. Virtually the entire adult population of the country enrolled in the army? Pretty evidently in that context being "in the army" has to mean something other than it might normally mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:59 PM

Oh, Liberal Hawk,

You dodged the question. Here it is in a simplified form:

                   Why did Nicaragua need the fourth largest army on the planet while Ortega was in charge? {it was 2.5 million in a country of less than 7 million}

While you are tooting Ortega's trumpet for him:
                   Please tell us how many millions of dollars stuck to Ortega's fingers out of the billions funneled to him for the military build-up. It came both directly from the Soviet Union and indirectly from Castro. {I promise not to ask how much stuck to Castro's fingers in the process.}

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM

Now wouldn't it be good to see world leaders competing to cut the amount of money they receive in salaries and perks.

A bit of grandstanding along those lines woidln't go amiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:50 PM

"Well, it would be difficult for him to do some necessary things like fly to other countries now and then for meetings and pay travel expenses at hotels, wouldn't it?"

Face reality LH .... those expenses wouldn't come out of his pocket.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:45 PM

Reducing my salary 68% would put me and my wife in the food bank line LH.

Your defensive statement just don't cut it. Ortega is just another politician in the world arena. I can't see any substantial humanitarian value in his 'little' salary reduction. Look at the figures I presented. They explain just where he stands in the economic scale of his impoverished country. They also reveal on were he (the socialist saviour) stands next to the leader of the most capitalistic countries in the world. In some ways it reveals somewhat how humble Bush ranks to Ortega in the salary game.

Hell ... If I were Bush I demand a hefty salary increase.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:44 PM

Well, it would be difficult for him to do some necessary things like fly to other countries now and then for meetings and pay travel expenses at hotels, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:40 PM

I can't say that I've ever heard of any politician, in any country or in any party that left office and lived on welfare (or the local equivalant) for the rest of his/her life.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:31 PM

May I refer you to this previous post of mine, Dickey? Your pointless point of today has already been fully answered in it:

"It doesn't have anything to do with where I want to move, Dickey. I have pointed out before that people in those 3rd world countries have NEVER had the rosy set of circumstances freely given to them that you and I were given at birth, merely by being born in the USA or Canada, in far more favorable ecomomic and social conditions. And they almost certainly NEVER will.

I have no reason to want to move anywhere. I'm happy to be in Canada. Canada is safe, prosperous, and free.

You have to assess each society's progress on the present and past conditions THERE, not here, and on what is possible THERE, not here. Cuba was far better off to be under Castro than if it had stayed under Batista. The Venezuelans who voted for Chavez (a majority of them) obviously think Venezuela is better off under him, and it is the poor who vote for Chavez. It is the wealthy and the middle class who don't like him. Most Venezuelans are poor. The Nicaraguans who voted Ortega back in obviously feel they are better off that way too. You weren't there. What do you know about it that they don't?

Give up this tired old BS about me wanting to "move" somewhere, because it's absolutely stupid. Just reread this post whenever you feel tempted to say it again.

You have got to get out of this cultural thought bubble you are trapped in where you imagine that everyone in the world has the same problems and opportunities and choices in front of them that you do. THEY DON'T! They are dealing with wholly different problems and choices, and they don't view America as their saviour, they view it as their exploiter, and as a rogue nation that attacks people. That isn't the fault of ordinary Americans, it's the fault of your government, which is simply a tool of a bunch of giant corporations and a military-industrial complex which doesn't care whose life it tramples on in order to make more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$."




Sour grapes, guys? ;-) I'm still waiting for our politicians to voluntarily lower their own wages as a gesture of frugality. Remember, Ortega could have just kept drawing $10,000 a month like his predecessor, former President Enrique Bolanos. He didn't. He lowered his salary to $3,200 a month. That's a 68% reduction!

Match that. Explain to me how it proves he's a bad guy. Betcha can't.

Major case of sour grapes we have here. LOL! It's amazing how blind political (or any other kind of) prejudice works. It simply blocks out any piece of reality which does not fit its established prescription of hatred and denial.


Number 6 - So you feel that a voluntary 68% reduction in the man's salary is not enough? ;-) What would you recommend? Would you be prepared to match your own recommendation if put in the same position? I don't think I would. I don't think anyone I know would, matter of fact. I find it downright astounding that a politician would cut his wages by that amount.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM

"They call it "grandstanding" when other people (whom they don't like, for political reasons) do what they would expect to be praised and congratulated for,"

I think Ortega's move is called "grandstanding" period. Especially when one's country is impoverished as Nicaragua is. But then again Ortega could be contributing a large amount of his salary to the poor .... yeah right .... it's probably being invested via the New York Stock Exchange.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:11 PM

LH keeps glorifying communisim but he says he does not want to live inder communisim. He prefers to live under democracy.

Make up your confliced, hypocrite mind. Peactice what you preach.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:49 AM

Correction .... I think Ortega is getting a substantial, if not extravagant salary in comparison to the population of his country.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM

"The average per capita income in Nicaragua is less than $500 per year."

U.S average per capita household salary per month .... $3,615
U.S. Bush's salary per month ..........................$33,300

Nicaragua average per capita household salary per month .... $33.00
Ortega's average salary per month ...........................$3,320

I dunno ... not much difference between what Ortega get's in comparison to Bush.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 11:00 AM

pdq - would you please explain the relevance of your remark? Military manpower is not the best way of comparing military expenditure, military efficiency or militarism. More relevant statistics are available here.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:33 AM

The average per capita income in Nicaragua is less than $500 per year.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:15 AM

I will believe you when you move to Nicaragua.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 09:34 PM

Dear Birdfeathers,

It is quite reasonable to expect that China, Russia and the US would have the three largest standing armies in the world, and they do.

The country ranked as 'fourth largest' changes rather often.

For the period of, say, the last 30 years, can you name three countries who have fielded an army ranked as 'fourth largest'?

I can name four such countries without looking it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:57 PM

They call it "grandstanding" when other people (whom they don't like, for political reasons) do what they would expect to be praised and congratulated for, for doing themselves. Sheer sour grapes on their part.

You see the same kind of mean-mindedness shown by Democrats toward Republicans, and vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: 282RA
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:30 PM

I've always liked Ortega. Remember when they caught that spy plane pilot--Eugene Hassenfuss or something--and the Nicaraguan govt could pretty much do with him as they pleased--they caught him spying. Ortega asked him if he had a family. Yessir. Ortega asked him if he'd like to go home and see them again and Hassenfuss with cracking voice said yessir I want very much to go home and see them again. So Ortega sent him home and the State Dept actually had the nerve to condemn Ortega's kindness and goodwill. Called it grandstanding or something stupid.

Subject: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:10 PM

From today's national news! Read it and weep, Dickey! LOL! Don't you wish we had politicians like this in North America?....

"MANAGUA, Nicaragua - Leftist Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega, who took power earlier this month, said Monday that he was slashing his salary and those of Cabinet members.

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In a news conference, Ortega said he would earn a monthly salary of $3,200 while Cabinet members would earn no more than $3,000.

Former President Enrique Bolanos earned about $10,000 while some Cabinet members earned more than $5,000.

Several presidents across Latin America have cut their salaries recently in response to criticism they earn excessive amounts while millions of their citizens live in poverty.

President Felipe Calderon of Mexico cut his salary by 10 percent after taking power in December. His predecessor, Vicente Fox, made about $245,000 a year in 2006.

Ortega headed a Soviet allied government in the 1980s that fought a war against a U.S. backed insurgency. He now says he has moderated his views and wants to have good relations with Washington."