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BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!

Wolfgang 28 Jan 07 - 10:52 AM
Leadfingers 27 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM
dianavan 27 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Dickey 27 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM
number 6 27 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM
Little Hawk 27 Jan 07 - 12:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM
number 6 27 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Obie 27 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM
GUEST 27 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Seiri Omaar 27 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM
dianavan 27 Jan 07 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Dickey 27 Jan 07 - 01:35 AM
number 6 26 Jan 07 - 10:18 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 07 - 09:18 PM
number 6 26 Jan 07 - 08:59 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 07 - 07:35 PM
Barry Finn 26 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM
number 6 26 Jan 07 - 02:23 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM
number 6 26 Jan 07 - 02:00 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Seiri Omaar 26 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM
number 6 26 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 07 - 01:07 PM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Dickey 26 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM
number 6 26 Jan 07 - 11:29 AM
heric 26 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Dickey 26 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Seiri Omaar 26 Jan 07 - 11:18 AM
pdq 26 Jan 07 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Dickey 26 Jan 07 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,number 6 26 Jan 07 - 08:10 AM
Little Hawk 26 Jan 07 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,Dickey 25 Jan 07 - 10:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM
number 6 25 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM
pdq 25 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 07 - 05:36 PM
Les from Hull 25 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM
GUEST 25 Jan 07 - 04:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 07 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Dickey 25 Jan 07 - 04:05 PM
pdq 25 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Number 6 25 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Number 6 25 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:52 AM

Several presidents in Latin America have recently reduced their salaries to deflect criticism that they earn too much while many of their citizens live in poverty.

Ortega was just following others. What is the reason to start a thread about him in particular?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM

"If I had to move somewhere..." that's an interesting speculation. Deserves a thread of it's own. So...


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM

"Yeah, the idea of being able to lay back on your ass and get everything free appeals to me too."

Don't choose Canada, then.

Opportunities abound but not much is free.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM

I am yanking your chain LH.

If you had asked in your original post if I thought it is a good idea for politicians in North America to voluntarily lower their sallary like Ortega did, I would agree 100%.

However you made it sound like a challenge so I took up the challenge.

Be careful what you ask for.

If I had to move somewhere, Canada or Australia woud be my first choices but I would have to study Australia a bit more and visit there for an extended time first. Yeah, the idea of being able to lay back on your ass and get everything free appeals to me too. Oops, there I go yanking again. Guess I am just another Yank ;-)

Seriously I think that seeing a politician work for a ridiculous pay leads one to believe they have a hidden agenda of making money from their position on other ways. Low pay amongst beaurucrats and civil servants leads to corruption in the government. I have heard "slip a 50 into your pass port and it gets stamped real quick" several times.

As a side bar, I think I remember a quote from somewhere like:

"he that doesn't work, nor shall he eat"

Who said that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:02 PM

I liked that quote McGrath ... thanks for posting it.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:48 PM

Heh! Did I ever say Canada (or any place?) was perfect??? Hell, no! No place is perfect. Still, as places go, it's one of the best. You are again being an absolutist, Dickey, seeing things only in jet black or milk white...no shades of gray allowed...and you don't make me feel one bit insecure about Canada as compared the the dear old USA. I've lived in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM

Dom Helder Camara: 'When I feed the hungry they call me a saint. When I ask why they are hungry they say I am a Communist.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:42 PM

"How much tax do you pay in Canada"

How much in taxes do we pay ... well, an average middle of the road Canadian worker in total pays in the income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, those other little sur-taxes we pay when buying new tires and such .... ummmmm .... around 68% of their gross annual income.


68% !!!! that's 68% taken from my salary that I contribute to our country .... hey LH, and you make old Danny there looks like he is doing the world a favour.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:29 AM

Jesus Christ told his followers to sell their worldly possessions and give the proceeds to the poor. Karl Marx had a similar message: "From each according to their ability; to each according to their need."
Was Jesus a Marxist and was Marx a Christian? If they were both alive today would they be friends?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

"Poverty in Canada is a matter not of starving but rather of begging for food at food banks and shelters. It is the result of an unequal distribution of riches rather than a lack of riches"

I just asked if this is true or no. Seems like a touchy topic to people in Canada. I thought "Canada is safe, prosperous, and free."

How much tax do you pay in Canada?

While searching to find out what the taxes in are, I found this:

"I live in Canada. You can't know how bad it is unless you've lived here a while.

HELP!
Posted by: Chris at April 3, 2005 01:26 PM"

If you want to know where that came from just Google a phrase.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM

Dickey, Canada has elements of socialism- recall the term "social democracy"? We've never claimed Canada is a perfect model of socialism- hell, that slight socialist leaning is almost in spite of ourselves.
In other words: you're being absolutist again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:10 AM

Guest, Dickey quotes, "It is the result of an unequal distribution of riches rather than a lack of riches...." in regards to Canada.

Actually, thats true of most of the world and when Ortega slashed his salary it symbolized his recognition of that fact.

In Capitalist countries, however, the message is that if you happen to be poor, its your fault or that its akin to a disease that nobody can do anything about. The poor in America are the untouchables.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:35 AM

Why are you judging me LH? All I said was Ortega is a commie and his buddy bud, Ahmadinejad is an asshole that is building his own empire with terrorisim while shouting down with American imperialisim.

Can you judge people by the company they keep?

And I said that you like to glorify the likes of Ortega, Castro, Chavez and "former Marxists". If you think that is good then why are you offended? You should bask in the praise.

Don't you wish we had politicians like this in North America?. Hell No. You can have all you want though. Matter of fact, you can have all of them.

Is this how Socialisim works are just a myth?

An Introduction to Poverty in Canada

...In Canada, people suffer deeply not because the necessities of life barely exist for the population at large -- the state of affairs in many Third World countries -- but because an unequal distribution of income blocks access to Canada's abundance. Poverty in Canada is a matter not of starving but rather of begging for food at food banks and shelters. It is the result of an unequal distribution of riches rather than a lack of riches....
...Aside from a small percentage of the poor population who are living at a bare subsistence level or below, most poor Canadian individuals or families suffer the effects of continual deprivation: a relentless feeling of being boxed in; a feeling that life is dictated by the requirements simply of surviving each day. In this way of life there is no choice, there is no flexibility and, if something unexpected happens -- sickness, accident, family death, fire or theft, a rent increase -- there is no buffer to deal with the emergency. Life is just today, because tomorrow offers no hope.

It is perhaps easiest to comprehend what a day in a life of poverty is like by converting a typical poverty income into a daily dollar amount. Survey information for 1991 indicates that, for an average poor urban family consisting of two adults and two children (and updating for increases in the cost of living to 1994), the daily dollar amount available to each family member is $14.60 (amounting to $21,300 annually). Using daily per-person expenditure estimates based on the Department of Agriculture's Thrifty Nutritious Food Plan ($4.75), Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation data for shelter costs ($7.16) and Montreal Diet Dispensary estimates for clothing ($1.22), the daily cost of bare essentials for survival comes to $13.13.

Out of the remaining $1.47 per person per day, families need to pay for personal care items, household needs, furniture, telephone, transportation, school supplies, health care and so on. There is no money for entertainment, recreation, reading materials, insurance, or charitable or religious donations.

The daily-dollar conversion makes it easy to understand why poor families must cut into their budget for essentials why they must rent substandard housing; why they move often in attempts to save rent; why they purchase poor-quality food with little freshness or variety; why they must supplement their food budget with trips to food banks; why they own a minimum selection of mainly used clothing.

For the poor family, living on $14.60 per person per day is not an exercise in the imagination. It is reality, day after day and with no relief in sight....."


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:18 PM

Well ... now that your getting it .... yes LH, Daniel is not your friend ... and yes ... he is Dickey's friend.


sorry pal. you can't say I didn't try in getting it across to you earlier ...but ... well, what more can I say.



biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:18 PM

So what you're saying is...Ortega isn't my friend after all. He's Dickey's friend! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:59 PM

LH, you have just confirmed the point I was making. A person who holds the values of true socialism to their heart would never put themselves into a situation were they would have to make compromises to the industrial corporate hand fed leaders of the world. Compromising would mean selling out to the controlling corporate capitalists. If they did, they would know that they are selling away the basic needs of the societies they are fighting for.

Can you envision Douglas or Guevara accepting an annual salary 100 times greater than the average citizen of their own country, especially a country whose average citizen is so downtrodden by working in textile factories, picking fruit and coffee in which the efforts of their labour will be sold in in the U.S.A. at such a high price that is unimaginable to them. At such a high price whose profits go into the coffers of some foreign fat corrupt gringo. Can you see Douglas or Guevara driving around their impoverished country in a nice black shiny spanking new Mercedes. Driving to their elaborate weekend hacienda of their own on the coast. Driving those Mercedes through squalid dusty dirt villages with children diseased and running around with no shoes.

No, I don't think Daniel Ortega is that one socialist messiah come to rescue the world's poor from the greedy clutches of corporate capitalism. That salary cut doesn't cut it with me at all.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 07:35 PM

Ah...spoken like a true revolutionary, Number 6. ;-) Yeah, I mostly agree with you. I think do think, though, that every now and then a genuinely idealistic person does somehow manage become a national leader. In that case they necessarily have to compromise themselves to some extent with the great powers that be all around them. They have to turn a blind eye to certain things. Perhaps in that case they feel it is worth it in order to accomplish some other good things at the same time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

Yes, LH, I do like that Ortega lower his wages & those of his ministers, and only wish that it would happen here (USA).

"On Sunday, Iran's president toured Managua and told Ortega he would construct dams and homes, establish factories for everything from buses to bicycles, and improve Nicaragua's drinking water, ports and fishing industry."

"Why dosen't he do that for his country instead of running it down?"

Might you also say the same of the US when we were down there offering the same at the point of a gun, after all isn't an attempted overthrough attempt an offering of a better live?

You also critized Ortega by the company he kept as a political leader. Our leader would do well to follow that example & listen to all who would meet with him maybe then he'd be able to hear.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:23 PM

The social changes that better mankind haven't been made by leaders of the world ... they are the result of the passionate back benchers and social activists that work their butt off (and many put their life on the line) to ensure there is equality, justice, and humane social benefits in this world to all.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:06 PM

Aha! Yes, I do get your point. You may well be 100% right about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:00 PM

I didn't say they don't go into politics ... but to have the moxy to become a leader of any industrial nation, and yes even a leader of a socialist nation there is a trait of ambition to sell yourself off to the Big corporations .... Big $money$ controls world politiks .... everyone has a price and if you have ambition and an ego that has to be fulfilled to lead the Big One you sell your soul ... I honestly believe that.

A good example of a politician who was also a great humanitarion, a compassionate person about social needs and would never lead a country t is the late Tommy Douglas ... and another one worth mentioning is Che Guevera ... you get my point.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:49 PM

Exactly. There are some political moves which, in themselves, ARE good. And this is one of them. It sends a useful message and sets a good precedent.

Number 6 - your degree of cynicism about politicians is understandable, but is it useful? The reason I ask is that I have known several extremely idealistic and totally well-intentioned and honest people who went into politics. What good is it if you automatically write them all off as decent human beings merely because they are now "politicians"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:26 PM

Yes, its politics, but that doesn't mean it isn't good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:21 PM

Hmmmmmmmm.

That wage reduction .... politics that's all. I agree.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:07 PM

Bush has been in a lot of different vehicles during his presidency. He drove Putin around in a pickup truck in order to present a "folksy" image at the photo-ops. That's just being a politician. I would neither criticize Bush for that nor praise him for it. It's just what politicians do. When the photo-op calls for a big black limousine, they use a big black limousine. When it calls for a pickup truck, they use a pickup truck. I saw a photo once of the Queen of England driving a fork lift truck! (she was showing her solidarity with the workers on a construction site)

Politics, that's all.

You should try being less judgemental of other people, Dickey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:54 PM

Socialism isn't an ALL-OR-NOTHING proposition, Dickey. I have BOTH socialism AND capitalism in Canada, they both work okay, and I have lots of opportunities here to do whatever I want to. Socialism has NOT deprived me of any opportunities.

You, sir, are an absolutist. It's always all-or-nothing for you. As such, you deal in mythology rather than reality. That is also your problem regarding understanding what I intended in launching this thread.

My only point in launching the thread at all was this: Ortega just reduced his salary by 68% and reduced his ministers' salaries too. I think that's cool. I like it. And you can't do anything about it. ;-)

And it pisses you off, because you would rather that everyone saw Ortega as nothing but evil and wrong, because you think he's a "communist". Like I said, you're an absolutist. It's never shades of gray with you. It's either all black or it's all white. Well, the world just isn't like that. I know that on TV dramas you have the "good guys" and the "bad guys" and that's all there is to it. Real life is not that neatly bisected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM

The American Capitalist Pig, Bush drove Putin around in his Ford pickup truck.

The benevolent ex-marxist leader of Nicaragua drove the Benevolent Head Shwa of Iran around in his Mercedes.

Social justice at it's best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:29 AM

You are right pdq .... I don't know of any country that is socialist where the leaders aren't taking the icing off the cake, or as a matter of fact the eating the whole cake itself ... evident in the USSR, where the leaders drove to their luxurious country dachas in limos, evident in the luxury seaside villas of Cuba's leaders, stocked full of soap (a commodity that is hard to find for the citizens of that country), China's leaders (well we know about that), North Korea's leader (too disgusting to go on with that one), our own Canadian Bob Rae when he was the loud honking socialist (New Democrat) leader of the province of Ontario using helicopters to ferry him and his family to their luxury weekend cottage up in the expensive Muskoka Region, Ortega and his Mercedes Benz ... as I said the true socialists at heart, the passionate humanitarians don't become leaders, ambition is not in their souls.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: heric
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM

trivia: first thread, first line: Don't you wish we had politicians like this in North America?....


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:28 AM

The difference is is that opportunity does not exist under socialisim. You get what the other 99% get, no matter how hard you work. Civil rights are a sham and the elite hold all the cards and wealth.

If you don't believe it, try it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:18 AM

pdq, no system is perfect. Capitalism is just as bad, if not worse, in execution: with gross abuse of the environment , brainwashing of the citizenry, and upholding of the wealthy elite.      
/QUOTE/ This thread is about don't you wish we had politicians like Ortega in North America. /ENDQUOTE/
I don't believe you have the right to put words in LH's mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:30 AM

Socialism and Communism both use the same trick. You tell the poorest people that the rich are rotten and that you (as fearless leader) will take their money and give it to the poor. After the revolution, the new leaders keep everything for themselves and the poor go maching to their jobs in the mines. No real change. Different flag, maybe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:11 AM

Ortega, friend (or ass sucker) of Iranian empire builder Ahmadinejad who supports terrorisim, wants to wipe israel off of the map, claims the holocaust never happened, sends Iranians into Iraq to train insurgents to kill Americans, who trains Hezbollah, funds them in an attempt to take over Lebanon, who vows to kill infidels which include Catholics, the same religion that Ortega claims to have now, has cut his salary from 279 times that of the average Nicaraguan to 89 times that of the average Nicaraguan.

However what prevents him from slashing it to 11 times that of the average citizen like the salary of George W Bush?

"On Sunday, Iran's president toured Managua and told Ortega he would construct dams and homes, establish factories for everything from buses to bicycles, and improve Nicaragua's drinking water, ports and fishing industry."

Why dosen't he do that for his country instead of running it down?

Iran then and now by Haleh Anvari Tuesday September 25, 2001 The Guardian

Then: 1976

• Constitutional monarchy under the shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi

• Parliament: Majlis elected by the people but as approved by the shah; senate appointed by the shah

Population 34m;

52% illiterate

Unemployment 2.9%

Average income $100 a month

Exchange rate 70 rials to dollar

Total university graduates 440,000

Newspapers 7

Number of cars in Tehran 700,000

Now:

Population 64m, more than half born after the Islamic revolution;

17% illiterate

Unemployment 12.5%

Average income $60.50 a month

Exchange rate 8,000 rials to the dollar

Total university graduates 4.8m

Newspapers 48 (was 87 before a crackdown)

Number of cars in Tehran 1.73m.

This thread is about don't you wish we had politicians like Ortega in North America.

In light of his past and his present associates, Hell no because Ortrga is sucking up to tyrants that threaten the security of North America.

Can you see Venezuela being given nukes by Iran? Can you see North America being threatened with nukes from Latin America?

Can you see Muslim culture possibly infiltrating Nicaragua? Can you forsee Hezbollah rioting in the streets of Managua trying to take control of the country? Or is that just an attempt to scare people into believing terrorisim is spreading?

Sleep tight LH, you are in no danger at all. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:10 AM

marxxist/shcmarxist, democracy/fiddleerocracy ... I made my statement regarding Ortega's meagre salary decrease and that is that!

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:45 AM

I don't particularly glorify either communism or marxists, Dickey. I like democracy and socialism mixed with capitalism, like we already have in much of the western world. But that's not what the thread was about, it was about a voluntary salary reduction. I also like people who stand up to conquering empires, and in the western hemisphere you pretty well have to end up being labelled a "communist" by the USA whenever you do that. Have you noticed? No, probably not, right?

Do I wish that Ortega was prime minister of Canada? Why would I wish that? He's a Nicaraguan. I wish that he was the leader of Nicaragua right now...and he is. If he was a Canadian...yeah, then I'd vote for him in Canada. No problem.

He just reduced his salary by 68%, and I'm impressed by that. Period. That's what the thread is about. I know you'd like it to be about something else, but too bad. I launched the thread and it's about the fact that Ortega reduced his salary, and it was his idea, not somebody else's. I know you want to find a way to make it still look bad and evil somehow, but I don't think you can.

Can you be a "former marxist"? Sure. You can be a former just about anything at all if you decide to. For example, you can even change your sex or get a plastic surgeon to change your face! Imagine how much easier it is to change your political philosophy by a degree or two. It just requires a mind that is capable of digesting a new idea now and then in the light of new experiences. That too may be rare, but I know it's not impossible. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:07 PM

LH:

Why do you glorify Communists and Marxists? Show me where they have ever been successful.

Do you wish that Ortega was the PM of Canada? You seemed to indicate that you wished we had politicians like him in North America.

And if he is so non material why is his salary 76 times that of the average Nicaraguan While Bush's salary is 10.8 times that of the average American? By that measure he makes 7 times more than Bush?

Looks to me like Ortega is hosing them good.

"where the hell do YOU get the right to have any opinion about Nicaragua??? YOU haven't lived there either."

I never said anything about what would be good for the people of Nicaragua. I merely objected to your characterization of Ortega, the Marxist, as being a good person worthy of ruling North America, which I am a citizen of.

As you said, each country is different. What is good for one country is not necessarily good for another country.

Suppose I said "Those poor buggers up there in Canada are so bad off because they have had such capitalistic leaders. What they need is a former Marxist to get things straightened out.";-)

You will deny it but if you like Ortega then you are also endorsing his buddies Castro, Chavez, Ahmadinejad, Evo Morales and Correa that are out to screw the US.

LFH:

How does on become a former Marxist? I think the "former" is referring to the phrase "Former Marxist guerrilla" or "the former Marxist president" used by some news agencys denoting he is no longer a guerrilla or that he was the former marxist president.

Can you offer anything that indicates that he has changed his spots?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

And voters can't sweep a 'Marxist' leader from power, because they don't have elections.

Some do, some don't, the same as applies with people who adhere to other economic theories.

The fact that Hitler was a vegetarian doesn't mean that vegetarianism is intrinsically undemocratic. In the same way the fact that Stalin and Co claimed to be Marxists doesn't mean that Marxism is intrinsically undemocratic. For that matter, the fact that Pinochet was a devotee of a form of Capitalism doesn't mean that all Capitalists are Pinochets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 07:30 PM

Wouldn't it be nice just to have a healthy debate on just one of these threads in the Cat without the posts disintegrating into people taking shots at one another.

Oh well ... I guess I expect too much.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

Dickey, I have no reason to move to Nicaraugua, nor is it obligatory for anyone to move to a country in order to be permitted to express a positive opinion about it or about something one of its leaders does. If it were obligatory, then I would be permitted to say positive things about only one country at this point: Canada. I lived in the USA once too...but it might have changed in the past 36 years... ;-)

I do not regard your constant harping on where I should live (based on my opinions) to be anymore than empty, meaningless rhetoric.

I shall continue to have opinions about countries I have absolutely no plan to ever move to, I shall continue to have opinions about any damned country I want to on the face of this planet, based on what I know about it and what I read, and there's nothing you can do about it. ;-) Find a better argument than that one, because it's a joke.

If you have to BE a citizen of a country to have a valid opinion about it, Dickey, then where the hell do YOU get the right to have any opinion about Nicaragua??? YOU haven't lived there either.

In other words, "Take off, ya hoser!" ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:53 PM

Les from Hull,

I'm not trying to pick on you personally, but., you said:

       "...the contras who were trying to bring back the sort of government that Somorza headed..."

More opinion with 'low fact content'. What the Contras did was try to set-up a responsible government and have honest democratic elections. Nicarauga had such government over the last 17 years. Read: after Ortega was voted out.

Also, the answer to the question about "why did Nicaraugua need such a huge army" is to de-stabliize Central America on behalf of the Soviet Union and their operative, Fidel Castro. The army build-up came before the Contras, but I'm sure you already expected that answer.

None of this constitutes support for Samoza anymore than criticism of the current Iraqi government can be considered praise for Saddam Hussein. Ortega, Saddam Hussein, Samosa, Castro, Pol Pot, etc. (ad nauseum) are all bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:36 PM

"Where did I say anything about...?" - how can anyone know anything about what a nameless GUEST ever said or didn't say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 05:19 PM

I'm sorry pdq - I meant really that Reagan was supporting the contras who were trying to bring back the sort of government that Somorza headed, but I got confused. At least I can admit when I'm wrong, unlike some others here.

You said "Why did Nicaragua need the fourth largest army on the planet while Ortega was in charge? {it was 2.5 million in a country of less than 7 million}". Where did you come up with such a huge figure? Or is it just unfounded opinion? Anyway people answered this question for you - more or less, because they were at war with people who were supported by the USA.

Dickey - I am not saying anything about Ortega being a Marxist. I'm saying that he's saying he's a former Marxist, like your quote does. I was just amused that you highlighted the word Marxist and not the qualifying adjective 'former'.

In the quote about the army I was refering to pdq, who brought this up.

I think that your abuse has been directed towards Little Hawk. If you don't think that you are being abusive, then it says something more about you than it does about him.

I personally do not trust any politician. It seems that they are a necessary evil, only some are more evil than others. I would not trust any of them, but from what I've read I would rather trust an Ortega than a Samorza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:20 PM

LFH:

"Dickey - it was good of you to highlight the word Marxist for us. Did it not occur to you to highlight the word 'former' as well? And voters can't sweep a 'Marxist' leader from power, because they don't have elections."

So you are saying he is not a Marxist?

"About this army size. You claim that 2.5 million were serving in the army. So who were they fighting? It would appear that there would be no Nicaraguan males of military age to form an army for the Contras. Time magazine said in 1990 that the Nicaraguan Army was 70,000 strong."

Where did I say anything about an army?

"Personally, I find your tone abusive. If you can't post civilly, with accurate attributions, it's probably doing your argument no good at all."

Where have I been uncivil? Who have I abused? I have linked my information to the source.

I find all there of your charges unfounded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:20 PM

Now that last might be a useful general principle. But I see few signs that the kind of people who sound off about Ortega or Chavez or Castro from that big country up North exercise it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:05 PM

"If I were a Nicaraguan" There is only one way to determine what you would do if you were a Nicaraguan. Be a Nicaraguan for a while.

Until then you are attempting to speak for Nicaraguans.

This is another example of how you judge what is best for others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM

Les from Hull sez:

"The wealthy you no doubt refer to would be the former dictator and Reagan puppet Samoza..."

Please explain how that could be when Samoza was deposed in 1979 by a group led by Ortega, and president Reagan took office in JAN 1981!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

Ortega can be grouped into 'they' McGrath ... he took the most he could get while making the appearance of being altruistic ... basically he had to lower the outrageous high salary of his predecssor, but he still kept a substantial high salary in the long run ... it was pure politikal savvy .... look at the statistics of his current salary as compared to what the average 'joe' in his country makes ... it cannot be argued that his salry is less in compared to the leaders of the western world ... he's part of the gang.

BTW ... just google the info regarding the average salaries if you want to verify the numbers I presented.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:23 PM

They will take what they can get when it comes to a salary. Ortega... sure he lowered it... To be strictly logical, those two statements are incompatible, if Ortega is included in "they", as it is clearly implied that he is. You can't take all you can get and at the same time take less than you can get.

It seems pretty evident that Ortega is a long way short of perfection, which is something he shares with politicians in general, and indeed with people in general. But in this particular matter of taking a pay cut there is is something that deserves to be emulated by others in the same line of work - and the fact that it undoubtedly will not be deserves to be noted, and should diminish their moral, standing (though in some cases that might be pretty hard to do).


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Subject: RE: BS: Ortega slashes his OWN salary!
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:05 PM

What I'm trying to say LH ... the Ghandi's, Martin Luther King's, Jesus, Mother Theresa's of the world would not have become politicians, leaders of political nations ... people that do are deep down trying to satisfy their own self egos.They will take what they can get when it comes to a salary. Ortega did, sure he lowered it, but if he is the true saviour of the miserable, down todden in the world he would have taken less ... he would not be a politikal leader.

Now that could possibly cause some thread drift here.

biLL


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