BS: Cashless society - for or against?

Subject: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: GUEST,Mr. Cash
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:06 PM

Searched and didn't see a thread addressing this.

Cashless society. Do away with money as we know it and handle all financial transactions through plastic and computerization -- good idea or bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:43 PM

Bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:45 PM

well, that's as much reason as you provided...but just to give one example, did you ever try to toss a credit card in a beggar's cup?

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:52 PM

Doesn't necessarily mean using credit cards .... Cashless society ... why not, we are almost there already. Doesn't make any difference to me ... cashless or not ... we still have to have $money$ to pay our way ... wether it's colorful paper and gold dubloons in our pocket, or a number in our bank account.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:06 PM

I think we should go back to the barter system. The Templars screwed things up for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:20 PM

I'm agin it. I'm agin everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:22 PM

I gotta a basket full of turnips ... will gladly trade for a used whiffletree.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:24 PM

What ya sayin Sorcha ???

You gettin rid of everything?!?!?!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 11:32 PM

Water in the Well
by Spirit of the West

There's water in the well, and the gate is always open
There's wood out in the shed, and the chimney's always smokin'
The kettle's on the boil now and won't you stay for tea?
And help us with the garden and we'll help you rake your leaves

Money doesn't talk in this neighbourhood
A healthy bank account won't do you no good
Hey, neighbour, I've seen that done before
You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours

There's water in the well, and the gate is always open
There's wood out in the shed, and the chimney's always smokin'
The kettle's on the boil now and won't you stay for tea?
And help us with the garden and we'll help you rake your leaves
And cut the children's hair before we go to the quilting bee

Rise and shine; what a glorious day!
We're learning about living in the natural way
We're all Mother Nature's children, daughters and sons
Our numbers are many, but we all live as one

Buy a few acres; do your own excavation
Lay down the forms; build up the foundation
I'll gladly lend a hand if you need me, brother
`Cause we are only wealthy through each other

Our roads are dirt and our highways are gravel
We're self sufficient folks here; there's no need to travel
The water is clear; the earth is chemical free
We're all safe in our comm-u-ni-ty... nu-cle-ar free

There's water in the well, and the gate is always open
There's wood out in the shed, and the chimney's always smokin'
The kettle's on the boil now and won't you stay for tea?
And help us with the garden and we'll help you rake your leaves
I'll loan you my guitar, if I can watch your colour TV

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:19 AM

biLL, I'm agin everting. Smile...barter would be good. I can cook, make quilts (other sewing too), garden, deal with dogs (you get the kids), concot herbal stuff, make wine, make music, shoot, reload ammo, butcher game, preserve food, but just don't ask me to reconcile your cheque book or pay the bills. Cutting, splitting and stacking wood is no fun either.

I really really don't wanna poop outside when it's 40 below either.

Mostly, I'm agin clothing unless it's doddamm cold out there. And I really hate shoes. Socks are nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:57 AM

We are working towards a cashless society, but I'm not happy about it. I have no idea how much money I actually have unless it's there in my purse. Unless you are the sort of person who checks every piece of post statement, it's a pain, having to keep checking. I have bank accounts and use cash cards, but I only have a rough idea of what I have in my account at any time (it's about £5 now... should be just enough to stop them charging me £30 for going £2 overdrawn). In my purse however, there is enough to pay the window cleaner and the childminder and have £15 left over for the weekend.

My father refused to even have a bank account until it was the only way he would receive his pay. Standing orders were a foreign realm to him and as for trying to punch in a PIN... his hands were so large he had difficulty dialing telephones, he'd have no chance with the little keypads on most ATMs. His rage if he got the number wrong for the third time and the machine ate his card would have been likened only to the Incredible Hulk.

The card chip/PIN system we have is still too easy to defraud, there are too many ways a determined thief can empty a bank account or clone a card.

Besides, I'm left handed and those machines are all for right handed people. It's not fair that 15% of the population (and 66% of this household) should have to bend their hands into Balinese temple dancer poses or squash up to one side and get wrist cramps!

At least cash can be carried in any pocket or wallet!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:05 AM

In my purse however,

Not any mre... the window cleaner has just been...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:17 AM

Bad.
Any cashless, but money based system is still not secure enough from fraud etc, and is unlikely to be convenient for small payments for some time.


It is also going to be irresistible for the police, politicians, and such like. Do you know how many Government officials can go through your financial records at the moment, without any cause? Do you want to make it easier for them?

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:58 AM

It might be fine for many people, but one must consider all the people before making grand generalizations. I probably know at least a dozen people who have to make very special arrangements every single payday to get their payroll checks cashed, because due to an astonishing variety of special conditions and rules they are not "qualified" to have even a checking account with any bank in the area. (And no, they are NOT illegal aliens.)

Poverty SUCKS, and the current extent of "cashless marketing" already excludes a great number of quite fine people from full participation in our society. Let's not charge into making it even worse for them.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:41 AM

Aginst.

When credit cards started coming into general use a few decades ago, a columnist wrote about a mate of his who was enthusiastically explaining how he would use his card for everything, then bit the columnist for a coin to buy a paper!

Recently one of our silvertailed politicians was explaining how poor folks could use their ATM cards everytime they visited a doctor who does not bulk bill. I've forgotten his reason for this being easier for them, but he obviously was unaware that Banks do not allow folks with small balances to use their card more than 4 times a month!

sandra

SILVERTAIL - almost obsolete term for rich folks who have no idea how the rest of the world lives.
Some years back one of these politicans caught a headline by "living" happily (big smile for camera) for a week on the same amount of money welfare recipients get, but he kept his Dental appointment & paid for it out of his bank balance!

BULK BILL - briefly, the system used by some doctors so that welfare recipients (& others) do not pay for medical treatment because the Dr bills the Govt directly.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:04 AM

As I mentioned it doesn't really matter to me personally. Cash in pocket, or cash in bank (ATM card). As concerns for the gov't, so what, not that I indorse it ... if they want to know about me they will find out regardless.

BUT ... John in Knsas raised a very valid point against ... and I certainly agree with him ... a cashless society will exclude a great number of quite fine people from full participation in our society ... and that is the poor. Getting a bank account pretty well is off limits to the homeless ... this in itself makes it more difficult for them to climb out of thier hole ... a cash less society pretty well shoves them inot further misery.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:09 AM

I'm agin it.

Too easy to find out what I spend my pay on right now. Too much publicity, not enough privacy as it is.

Ain't nobody's business but mine. And I sure ain't gonna have direct withdrawals!

I pay my bills by check simply because I object to paying more as a "service charge" to the company than postage costs.

Read Heinlein's "Friday".

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:11 AM

And by the way -- I can do all those things Sorcha can do (except play the fiddle).

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:23 AM

I like cash. So if anyone prefers to be cashless, please give your cash to me. I will gladly take it off your hands, free of charge :-)

I agree with Bunnahabhain. I'm opposed to the government here in the UK gradually eroding our freedom, and a totally cashless society would only assist them to do that.

Having said that, plastic has its uses and I use credit cards a lot (not to borrow money though, the rates are extortionate), but wouldn't want to be completely without cash. Imagine having to use a credit or debit card to buy a choc bar or newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:31 AM

against.

A local grocery just went to all e-checks; which pisses me off. since I don't have a bank card, they still use a paper check - which they void and hand back to me. Thus reducing *my* paper trail for tracking my finances, but increasing the amount of data 'in the system' on me for OTHERS to track.

there is *NO* benefit to me of this new system - despite the store touting that it is "to better serve our customers"

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Alba
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:42 AM

Against...totally.
For the very reason that John in Kansas and BiLL (number6) have stated. It excludes and makes no provision for the Poor and Homeless.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Gizmo
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:57 AM

I'm against it completely. yet have found I have no choice.

A few years ago, in October I got mugged, and my bank card stolen. By the time I got it replaced was near christmas.

2 weeks before christmas ( a few days after I had been laid off my job because the business was moving premises, and I was not invited to go halfway up the country with it - not that I could) I used my new card, but there was something wrong the ATM and before I could type in my number the card got sucked into the wall. I went into the bank, but they were closing for the night and would not let me retreive it, even though it was to be emptied 10 mins later.

I had nothing but problems getting a new one replaced, which couldn't happen until after christmas.

To top it off, I had to pay for my childcare (the woman prefered cash, and couldn't give a cheque without guarantee card which was incidently my debit card which got swallowed.) I also needed cash for bus fares etc, and all my benefits went into the bank too, the benefit agency beleiving it better for everyone to have money go straight into their account.

I had to wait until the banks opened before I could get cash out from there.

That is one of the reasons I hate them. Without the blessed little things, post offices would not be closing so quickly, as there would be a need for people to use them. Instead, pensioners have to travel on uncomfortable crowded buses just to pay their TV licenses, or get their pension out of their account.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:19 PM

"...are not "qualified" to have even a checking account with any bank in the area" Rapaire

This is the second time in a month that I have read that phrase; I had never been aware of such a thing.

How does it work? In Juneau, Alaska, we have homeless people (a good many of whom have come to Alaska in search of good jobs and discovered instead that the cost of living here is high)and I don't know if they are able to open bank accounts. Are they refused the service because they don't have a valid address? I do know that some of them give the local Shelter's address while they are searching for jobs.

Not being able to open a checking account makes no sense to me whatever. What about when a person receives a periodic subsistance check from someone 'back home'? Would they be expected to carry sums of money on their person?

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:24 PM

Look, if a cashless society is the only way to get rid of street mimes, go for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:29 PM

I have voiced my opinion over that at our bank Ebbie, when my wife and I were opening a new account ... I had to provide prove of our address ... I asked what if I couldn't ... I was told "we wouldn't be able to open an account for you". Disturbing isn't it.

There now is a blossoming of these Cash outlets that will 'cash your cheque' ... but for a high fee .... one reason for the popularity of these busnesse's is due to the fact many people can't provide prove of where they live if they don't have a valid driver's licence.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM

I don't have any cash so I suppose I'm livin' the dream . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:40 PM

I just recalled that I have experienced the contrary.

When I came to Juneau 19 years ago I carried a check. When I decided to take a wilderness job for the season I wanted to buy a new guitar to take with me to the lodge. I needed to get the check cashed.

The first bank I went to turned me down; they said they would need to wait for a week or so to see whether the check cleared before they could give me any money from it.

I went to a bank up the street. There the teller said a sensible thing. She said, Why don't you open an account and just withhold some of the money?

That's what I did. I had no local address- in fact, I had no address at all because my Oregon drivers license had a no longer valid address on it. So, how did they get around it? I was staying at a local hotel.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:43 PM

Not a good idea to do away with money in our present system of exchanging goods and services, because it will be one more step in making it possible for the government to keep track of just about everything you do. When a government is headed down the road to totalitarianism, it is unwise to give them such grand opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: JeremyC
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:47 PM

I'm totally against a Cashless society. What would life be like without being able to hear great performances of "Ring of Fire," "Ira Hayes," and so on?

Alas, we are now a Cashless society, more's the pity. :(

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 12:49 PM

That was 19 years ago Ebbie ... now days institutions such as banks are getting more corporate in their attitutes regarding providing service to a local community and it's people .... they are paranoid that Columbian Drug lords are laundeirng cash and the likes ... or mid Eastern Jihadists are transferring funds to scheming secret cells planted around the country.

It's all gone crazy.

I should add a driver's licence is the preferred document of proof here, there are other ways you can provide proof of your residence, I'm not sure what exactly, but it is not an easy task ... and yes, for migrate workers coming to such places as Saint John to work on refinery construction or whatever ... if they don't have a driver's licence, they have to go to these Cash Stops.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:01 PM

Y'all know that the US Government demands STREET addresses for things like mutual funds, doncha? It's all about their fight against terrorism..... Gotta have a street address to get a loan, too. Or start an IRA. Or to do a lot of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:12 PM

I should add a Cashless Society does not mean getting rid of money ... it just means we exchange our cash electronically via a key such as a plastic card .... we still require $money$ to exchange for goods and services ... the difference being we don't have it physically, but it is in an 'account' which we access by that key .... regardless if it is in an account, or in our wallet it's value is still at the mercy of the 'Templars' (so to speak) that cluin mentioned in an earlier post.

If you are concerned about having a secure value for retaining your basic needs to live I suggest stocking gold bullion hidden away in a bomb shelter in your basement.

As to Big Brother spying on you ... finding about your spending habits, who really cares unless you are purchasing abnormal amounts of fertilizer and you aren't a farmer. Anyway, if the secret police or the village elders are suspicious of you, they will spy on ya any which way regardless.

I can vision some government clerk nodding away right now looking over my purchses for the last year .... coffee maker from Sears, a set of pots from Padermo, a weed wacker, again from Sears, underwear from Winners, Hmmmm 2 coats from LL Bean, a camera tripod, socks from Mardens, a hat or 2 ... a zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (is it 5:00 o'clock yet?)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:39 PM

So, you buy your underwear from Victoria's Secret, do you? You only CLAIM that it was from Sears! We know better! And there is NO chance that we got the data mixed up!

Pervert! Terrorist! Canadian!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 02:02 PM

Oh sh%T ... now I'm getting paranoid. :{

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:36 PM

If we went to moneyless transactions totally, what would I do with this hollow mattress?

The point is, 94.924% of the 'convenience' is just for business and banks....not for me.....and bank can't accidently 'lose' money that I have hidden in my copy of "The Illustrious Life of William McKinley"....and *I* can't just treat it as little numbers to be tossed about when I have to go dig it out and carry it to the store to squander it.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 05:44 PM

My bank charges an extra "service charge" on my account when the balance falls below $1000. Nice way to kick folks when they're down, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:04 PM

As long as it doesn't involve tattoos or implants.

Buskers can get portable credit card processing machines. I have one for the pottery.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 06:14 PM

Gotta have a street address to get a loan, too. Or start an IRA.

I don't think that would ever have stopped the likes of Gerry Adams...

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:28 PM

Troll chum. Nevertheless,

Personally I'm again' it, even though I'm a card carrying member. I have no cash, so that makes me cashless, right? And it's a big society and getting bigger all the time.

Due to inflation and many other factors that would keep many other threads humming we, here in the US are about 10 cents on the Dollar from when I was about 21 years old. So a dollar bill today would have been a dime bill 30 some odd years ago. What a waste of paper and printing. Silver is gone out of our coins (1964). Remember what those old "cartwheels" felt like? If you had a couple of them in your pockets, you knew you had money! Gold was gone in 1933 and copper in pure form was taken out of pennies in 1982. We have "cupero-nickel clad-coinage" close to zip on the metal markets. Yes, this IS a cashless society all right. Ersatz coins and "fiat" bills. Coasting along on the good name and good will of a government that says "Trust Me". Where is the wealth of the nation? I don't know. Maybe I should hand them an IOU come taxtime for my share of the public debt. Government of by and for the people, you know. If it works for them, why not me?

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:37 PM

"Imagine having to use a credit or debit card to buy a choc bar or newspaper."

I see people do this all the time and it drives me potty. There is quite often a surcharge or a minimum bill for credit cards, but shops are quite happy to take 53p from a debit card, chip and PIN, whatever... I try not to use my card for purchases under £10 - only when I have no cash on me do I use it for less than that amount and then only if I can get cashback with it.

There are lots of people who, for many reasons, are not "eligible" to hold a bank account or credit card. Registered bankrupts are not allowed credit cards or certain types of bank account. People who have county court judgements against them or had their details passed on to a collection agency are not eligible for many credit cards (so why the hell the companies keep sending the blasted forms out I don't know.... our address was blacklisted after being used by a fraudster who ran up parking tickets. He'd given our address and we got the collection agency knocking on the door despite never having heard of him). People who live in hostels are not eligible - a hostel is not considered a permanent address. To move towards a totally cashless society would only serve to widen the gap between the haves and have-nots.

Besides... what would I do with this big jar of pennies I have here?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: GUEST,Mr. Cash
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:51 PM

An electronic control grid is being set up to track you. Cell phones have GPS chips. New toll road technology scans license plates and charges fees accordingly. National I.D.s will contain an electronic chip scanable from hundreds of feet away. Even doorframs sold at hardware stores now contain RFID chips, to register opening and closing. When the master switch is flipped, you will be trackable every minute of the day. That's the plan, at least.

The various govts of the world are setting up this control grid to protect us from the "terrorism" they create. If we were really at war with "terrorists," our countries wouldn't have porous borders. So the war on terrorism is nothing more than the phony pretext to put a tracking grid in place.

Once it is in place, the next move will be to do away with cash. Do you know how to grow food? If not, then money = food. So if they can control your money, they can control your food. Literally control whether you eat or starve.

In the U.S. and elsewhere, there are already laws in place mandating loss of citizenship, imprisonment and torture if you aid a "suspected" terrorist. The definition of terrorist is so broad it can be selectively enforced to include anyone.

So, once they get rid of your cash, if you speak out against the government (act of terrorism), your money WILL be cut off. You won't be able to buy food. And since laws are in place to "disappear" people who AID terrorists, do you think anyone will help you? If they and their family can be Abu Grahibed for feeding you, do you think they will?

Automated financial transactions are the worst idea in the world. But kids are being taught it's just part of life to thumbscan and swipe cards. They're told it's fashionable to do it, told by the people who OWN the technologies (and the media). If adults don't counteract this brainwashing , then the cashless society will be the Auschwitz tattoo X 1000 for their children.

There are various ways to fight the control grid plan. Use cash. Leave a paper trail with checks. When you're held up in a checkout line (made to wait because you're paying in cash), lecture the people behind you about the control grid (this is my personal favorite. I hand out cards printed with websites about the subject, and the managers of the checkout lines manage to find me an open register FAST when they here me speaking to the entire store about credit cards and concentration camps).

Refuse to go along with the Real I.D. Act in America. The state of Maine is doing this en masse, but YOU are going to be faced with a personal decision about the Real I.D. on May 11, 2008. That's when all states are expected to have their Nazi internal passport Real I.D. in place. The I.D. is your driver's license. They've let 30 million criminal illegals into the U.S. without tracking them, but YOU are going to have to put your vital information into the national criminal database. You are going to have to decide whether you support this Nazi system or not. I won't be renewing my license under the conditions.

http://today.reuters.com/misc/PrinterFriendlyPopup.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2007-01-26T012738Z_01_N25298122_RTRUKOC_0_US-U

Read the article. You'll have to go in with a boxload of I.D. material to get your Real I.D. card. Your local media will call it your "driver's license" on their bullshit TV reports, but it has nothing to do with driving. You'll have to present utility receipts. What the hell does that have to do with I.D. or driving? Nothing. But it'll come in real handy when they start cutting off power to the "terrorists" who protest the war in Iran.

Remember the phony smallpox scare? They said all Americans had to be vaccinated to be safe. Only 30,000 morons fell for it. By now the number was supposed to be at about 100 million. But we'd all be dying from the crap they put in the vaccines if we had taken them. And we knew it. So it didn't work. This Real I.D. stuff is the same kind of bluff. 30 million criminal illegals running around unbothered, but YOU will have to show a freakin utility bill to get gestapo papers? May 11, 2008 is not far away, and you need to look at this.

Thank you for your patience.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 09:55 PM

I have a question for you: Do you know people like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:13 PM

Whew Mr. Cash .... well, what can one say after a post like yours. Jeeeesh.

Boy ..... whoa


Think I'll go out on my deck,
Smoke a cigarette, think about getting my hair cut tomorrow.



"Must be because I had the flu for Christmas
And I'm not feeling up to par
It increases my paranoia
Like looking into a mirror and seeing a police car"
... those lyrics by David Crosby.


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: GUEST,Mr. Cash
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:57 PM

I can document all I just wrote about. I can refer you to former govt and military analysts who see the situation the same as I do. The govt has made no secret of its intentions. Look up "DARPA" the Real I.D. Act, SPP (Security & Prosperity Project toll roads), look at national school curricula, go back to the old terrorist scares the govt was putting out while they were hyping the smallpox threat, etc., etc.

The govt ADMITS to all this. The U.S. Senate passed the Real I.D. Act 100-0. An internal passport. You will need your I.D. card on you at all times to move about freely in America. While the illegal immigrants come and go at will. The control grid is NOT being set up for outside threats. It is being set up for law abiding Americans. The State of Maine knows it. All of America needs to know it.

The reason I address this is because if you're NOT aware of this agenda, then when the Bush/Clinton cabal nukes an American city one day and poses as your savior the next, you'll run straight into any plan they offer. And this is the plan. Don't fall for it. Say no to the tracking.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 01:58 PM

"Documents, Documents! Get yer red hot documents right here!"

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Gizmo
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 03:55 PM

Liz I know exactly what you could do with the big jar of pennies -

Shove it up the corporate junkies f$%&&*(g fat a£$%s.

The bigger the jar - the better in my opinion.

In fact I've been saving a penny jar for a few years, and would gladly forgo the use of the cash, if it meant I could enjoy some satisfaction of personally shoving the thing........

...but I have some anger issues. Only ever happens when banks, corrupt corporations and members of the government are mentioned.

I either need help or a soapbox.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:43 PM

I pay by cash normally or by Debit card

What I do object to is the underpinning by individuals in the stock exchange

Put your money on this roulette wheel young man!

In do not bet but that is precisely what I am being asked to do!!

The stock exchange is NOT a safe place to put my money!!

I am violently opposed to an one advising me to put my money in to investments which are based on a gamble

Final salary pension schemes (uk ) have been given a gaurantee to members

Money purchase investors have not ~ this is blatantly unfair

It is not surprising that UK ppl are investing in property (this will too will have a sorry end too I feel)

We need an investment mediumm which is gaurenteed other than the Stock Exchange

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 08:13 PM

See my original post in this thread. Like it or not we all have a stake in the game of chance. The wealth ( and health) of the nations is inextricably tied to the businesses of that nation. If the business fail so does the nation. It is a joint venture, a joint risk and everything is riding on it. Ok, so diversify and go international. Just a bigger casino. No guarantees. For those who want to place side bets for additional gain, yes there is the stock markets, etc. but the risks are the same, just not spread over the whole field.

You pays your money and you makes your choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Flash Company
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:41 AM

Seem to feel that the Cashless Society is a little in the same style as 'The Paper Free Office'. I was promised that one back in the 1970's and it aint happened yet.

FC

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak sans cookie still
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:08 AM

I remember the promise of a paperless office... the fun I could have with our files, a flatbed scanner and a paper shredder.

I suspect that the cashless society is still closer than the paperless office - there is no vested interest in doing away with paper. On the contrary, think of all those paper mills, recycling plants, logging industry (that clears land for building on) and other paper related manufacturers that would suffere redundancies and the associated downswing in spending.

Sooner or later the Green lobbyists will start asking questions about the where the plastic for the cards comes from and that could start to get nasty. You can grow another tree, but you can't wait another millenia for the oil to form.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:31 PM

An example of the kind of spin and propaganda that is endlessly unrolling on the cashless society issue:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Every morning Dennis Colson, a surveyor at New York City's Department of Design and Construction, begins his work day by placing his hand on a scanner to log his time and attendance at the office.

The use of hand geometry and other biometric data, like facial and iris recognition, is not new -- the University of Georgia pioneered the use of hand geometry when it installed scanners in its student dining hall in 1974....

But the planned roll-out of hand geometry scanners in all New York City government agencies has sparked union cries of "geoslavery" and assertions that technology developed for security will be used to track, label and control workforces....

"It's really a matter of this kind of technology having far outstripped any legislation or even case law in the United States in terms of what are the restrictions," Forster told Reuters.....

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2007-01-26T195830Z_01_N25259138_RTRUKOC_0_US-WORK-SCANN

You don't have to scan, and you can win court cases concerning the issue by just citing the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Scanning may incriminate you, and you have the right against self-incrimination. Simple as that. It's not an admission of criminality to cite the Fifth Amendment, it just means that no one can make you speak or act against yourself, either in spoken testimony or in action.

These stories are endless. There is AMPLE precedent for not submitting to scanning. The freakin' Fifth Amendment to the constitution. But this story leaves you thinking you can't fight city hall. So transparent.

Say no to scanning. You may lose your job, but you'll win in court and make up the lost salary, plus damages. Enough court actions filed, no more hand scanning.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:13 PM

half way up the page Guest Number 6 wrote -

BUT ... John in Knsas raised a very valid point against ... and I certainly agree with him ... a cashless society will exclude a great number of quite fine people from full participation in our society ... and that is the poor. Getting a bank account pretty well is off limits to the homeless ... this in itself makes it more difficult for them to climb out of thier hole ... a cash less society pretty well shoves them inot further misery.

biLL
--------

In Oz welfare recipients (including the homeless) MUST have a bank account to get their money. Which probably explains why we have so many folks begging on the streets.

.................

Cluin sez.

My bank charges an extra "service charge" on my account when the balance falls below $1000. Nice way to kick folks when they're down, eh?
------

So do Oz banks & credit unions, but then we did deregulate our Banking system in the 90's & lotsa' smaller banks were chomped up by bigger Oz & international banks!

My ATM account is not linked to my savings account & I have been penalised in the past (4 withdrawals per month!) for not keeping all my money in that account.

Recently my Credit Union decided to acknowledge loyal customers like me who have had accounts for more than 10 years & let us have lots more access to our own money without paying a fine (fee) for exceeding the 4 transactions per month.

......................

Liz the Squeak

To move towards a totally cashless society would only serve to widen the gap between the haves and have-nots.?

RIGHT ON!

Looks like we live in a Global Economy as the same problems are in different countries.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

I don't go in for conspiracy stuff about nefarious global control plots. I think it can all be explained by greed. Just more ways to nickel and dime us to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:23 PM

This discussion reminds me of a sci-fi book or perhaps it was a short story. The name Pohl Anderson comes to mind but I'm not sure. Nonetheless:

In the future (then) society it was determined that the essence of money was admiration. If you admired someone's labor an appropriate amount was deducted from your account and credited to his. This was done by computers(?) which could determine "how much" you admired some thing or service. So, the folks went about seeking to protect their ass-ets by trying to NOT admire anything too much or not at all if it could be helped. It was very humorous but in light of our headlong rush towards a cashless society the concept has taken on some ominous overtones. Is this the adumbration of the Beast (666)??

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM

Cluin - Well, yeah! ;-) Look, when a $ySStem is run according to the principle of limitless greed...and it is...then who needs shadowy conspiracies? The same thing happens in the end, regardless. Things get more corrupt and people suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Cashless society - for or against?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:32 PM

During the day the Hunt Brothers were trying to corner the silver market (late 70's early 80's) the gold market was dragged upward in the wake of their manipulations. The US Mint at SF had a display of 21 million dollars in gold (private owner). It (the display) consisted of some bricks and ingots and many coins and other bullion issues.

When the Hunt boys went bust I thought about that hoard of metal. Not one thing about it had changed and yet now it was only worth about 11 or 12 million dollars. Today that same amount of gold is getting back up to around $18 million. It hasn't changed on gram in mass!

Gold and other precious metals have an intrinsic value based on rarity, availablility and, as stated above "admiration"! In addition it has a commodity value or rather an industrial value based upon technical applications. It is the dollar which is unstable in relation to gold, silver, platinum and the like.

When the commodity is totally consumable, such as oil or food products the value is based wholly upon availability. If there is a crop failure the price flucuates higher, sometimes wildly. If there is a glut on the market, down.

It is interesting that currencies are traded in some markets. Since there is little or no metal backing to the world currencies today what is being traded? Is it the several governments' good name? Their ability to guide their nations' commerece? Is it a direct valuation of their GNP or the health of their businesses in total?

Many nations tie the value of their currency to the US dollar or the Euro or the Petrol Dollar. The petrol dollar is a burning issue, literally! Except maybe for the by product asphalt and the little (comparatively) that goes into the chemical industry it will be burned. While the world is still pretty much awash in oil the amount available for use is certainly manipulated by the producer nations and the price reflects the willingness and ability to pay by the user nations. At one point Saudi Arabia demanded payment in silver and this added to the silver crisis created at the time by the Hunt Bros.'s fiasco. Mexico and many other silver producing nations geared up to meet the demand ( and there is still a lot of silver out there yet to be mined) and they flooded the world markets. The price went from $20 and higher an ounce to around $3 or $4 an ounce. SA took a bath. So did a lot of countries and individual folks who tried to catch the wave.

The oil is brought up, refined and then burned. It's gone (but not the by-products). The silver and gold are still there in some form, i.e. coin, jewelry, bullion. Whether government pretend that it is no longer the basis for evaluation or not, it IS and it always will be. Throughout history and into tomorrow gold and silver and precious metal will always be the "cash" standard for the world.