BS: Give em shit, Canada

Subject: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 04:25 AM

Finally, the Canadian government has admitted it made a mistake when it helped the U.S. to send an innocent citizen to Syria to be tortured. Maher Arar has been given an apology and a compensation package in the millions.

Arar remains on the U.S. 'watch list' and the Canadian Prime Minister wants him removed. Arar is suing the U.S. govt. but states that nothing will ever repair his life.

Hats off to his wife who led the battle to free her husband and convince the government that he was innocent. It must have been a daunting task for such a young mother.

Harpers finest hour -

"Now I understand that the United States has requested that Canada not push the United States to amend its records for Mr. Arar.

Canada fully understands, appreciates and shares the United States' concerns about security.

However, this government – the government of Canada – has every right to go to bat for one of its citizens when the government believes a Canadian is being unfairly treated by another country."


http://www.news.gc.ca/cfmx/view/en/index.jsp?articleid=270889

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnomad
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 06:34 AM

A civilised apology, and what I would expect from Canada. I would, however, feel they have more than a right to support their citizen, I would view it as a duty to do so.

Sad that they should need to.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:41 AM

What a mess! Two men were tortured into naming names in Syria. Maher Arar was named and the proof of his terrorist activities is a car rental agreement cosigned by one of the men.

The CIA admits to approximately 36 errors which have led to the incarceration and in some cases torture of innocent people. Here is another example covered by the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html


All in the name of Homeland Security.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 09:22 AM

i agree totally,Canada deserves shit

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 10:41 AM

Thanks for playing, GUEST,ib48.

Johnny, tell him what he's won!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:02 PM

One demerit. His IQ shall now be 47.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 12:32 PM

I was surprised by Harper's rather sudden turn, as he has been kinda quiet on this for some while now and is blunt to the point reply to the Big Guy down south.

Well, I guess at this point Harper (to survive politically) he has to disassociate himself from Bush somewhat ... with Bush just a tread distance away from being impeached.

All politiking aside, this apology from the Canadian government is well deserved for Arar .... and yes dianavan ... hat's off to his wife who has been relentless in her securing her husband's freedom.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 02:07 PM

Sinsull - I think that the rental agreement was in regards to a home for his family but I'm not sure.

The story I heard was that Arar asked a co-worker to sign as a reference but when he wasn't available, the co-worker's cousin signed for him. It was the cousin of the co-worker that was under surveilance. When Arar was returning to Canada via the U.S., they nailed him as a terrorist, sent him to Syria and tortured him.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 02:22 PM

Very informative article, SINSULL - "Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema and sleeping drugs. They outfit detainees in a diaper and jumpsuit for what can be a day-long trip. Their destinations: either a detention facility operated by cooperative countries in the Middle East and Central Asia, including Afghanistan, or one of the CIA's own covert prisons"

Even if a person is guilty, outsourcing torture is inhumane. Can you imagine the terror if you were completely innocent?

Someone should hold the U.S. accountable. In this case, it was a young, Canadian mother. I'd like to see that kind of bravery more often. She stood up to the Canadian government and the U.S. government and held them accountable. We need more people like her.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 02:48 PM

I still think some senior members of government, CSIS and the RCMP should fry for this one....a disgusting perversion of civil rights. I won't hold my breath though.

I also figured that the RCMP should have been brought to task for deeming Farley Mowat a "subversive" and passing that "information" on to the Americans, so he was refused entry into the US under Reagan. Fortunately for Mowat, he had the good fortune to not be a naturalized Canadian.

Sorry, but the cynic in me views anything out of Harpers' mouth or other seats of power in this country, as pure political posturing. You can bet your own ass, that even while the mouth is moving and uttering statements to the contrary, collected information, based upon a skewed, frivolous perception of what constitues a "dangerous citizen" is still pumping down the dirt chute to the US, unimpeded, along with the rest of the shit........same as it ever was..... same as it ever was.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 07:54 PM

Actually, Metchosin, the head of the RCMP resigned over the Arar case.

I too, can hardly believe Harper. Not only is he 'standing up' to the U.S., all of a sudden he is interested in alternate energy! Did you hear his speech about our Mighty wind and our roaring tides? He sounded like Gordon Lightfoot. Talk about political posturing! Reminds me of the time Gordon Campbell tried to pass himself off as a folksinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 08:05 PM

Giuliano Zaccardelli (ex-head of the rcmp, who resigned over this case) should have his pension confiscated and applied to the Arar compenastion.

Regarding Harper ... as I mentioned up above ... it's a political move. He is fighting for his political life ... distancing himself (reasons why are obvous) as far away from George Bush as he can get.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:08 AM

The mean spirited name of this thread is totally appropriate.

Go get 'em Dianavan. Tear them a new one.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:31 AM

How about Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin? Who screwed them over?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:37 AM

The resignation of Zaccardeli with pension is hardly a fish fry dianavan, just one sacrifical goat. He wasn't working in a vaccuum under the Liberals either. These kind of individuals receive marching orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:39 AM

You suck, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:00 AM

You're right, Metchosin. He was probably given a very hefty pension to keep his mouth shut.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:03 PM

Thanks for your mean spirited comment.

How about Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin? Who screwed them over?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:11 PM

Not hard to guess your attitude, Dickey. Throw all the brown ones in the pit and let time and torture sort `em out, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM

While I agree that people shouldn't be sent to countries that torture people I'm astounded at the two faced bigotry and moral bankruptcy of the starter of this thread. Not one word , as far as I can see, to critisize the people who actually comitted the torture. But that's par for the course. Have a go at the US, let's not face up to the real problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:58 PM

"an innocent citizen"

Arar:"I told them I had not done my military service"

He was a Syrian citizen. Syrian citizens are required to do militry service.

Therefore he was not an innocent citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 03:58 PM

I don't have much time for Stephen Harper, but I don't think people realize how much bad feeling this case has stirred up against the United States government on both the left and right wings.   People are really mad about this -- and until the United States takes him off their stupid list they will continue to be mad about it.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 06:12 PM

Dickey and Crazyhorse - Arar was a joint Canadian/Syrian citizen who had resided in Canada for 16 years. His family was in Canada, not Syria.

The U.S. did not return him to Canada but to Syria where they knew he would be tortured. It is the U.S. that is outsourcing torture. Thats why I criticize the U.S. I am also criticizing the fact that the U.S. still has him on a watch list.

He was innocent of terrorist activity and a citizen of Canada. With friends like the U.S., who needs enemies like Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:14 PM

He had dual citizenship. He was wanted in Syria for not fulfilling his mandatory military obligation.

How about Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin? Who screwed them over?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:24 PM

How about Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and
Mr. Nureddin? Who screwed them over?

You clearly think you have a devastating answer lined up for that, so give it to us, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 09:40 PM

I thought the experts on governmnet malfunctions here would know the answer.

I believe they do but they do not want to say who screwed them over. They are to busy trying to blame their faults on the US government.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:56 PM

I cannot deny that.

Therefore is it permissable for Canada to do the same for four people and critiscise the US for doing it to one person because of the faulty information Canada gave to the US?

That is fecal material indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:09 AM

Will you kindly tell us which four people you are referring to? Your defense is becoming a bit vague.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: 3refs
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:37 AM

I think Mr Arar(and his wife/family) should be thankful that the U.S. didn't just keep him.

We've been trying to get Leonard Peltier back from them for decades.

Hypothetically speaking, when they come to me and say "He knows where your wife and kids are being held hostage, but we're going to have to torture him to get the answers". This would be where I take off my Mr. Niceguy hat!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:42 AM

Yep, we really are only 3 missed meals away from anarchy.

The scary part is that there are plenty of people who'd love to take us there.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:50 AM

Clearly you have some point you are trying to make Dickey, so why not make it yourself directly?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 01:14 PM

I'm not debating where the man was from or what he did my problem is that you care not one jot for him otherwise you would have criticized his torturers as well as the US. You didn't, to you he's simply a stick to beat the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:16 PM

From the article linked above, "Given what we've learned through the Inquiry, however, it is clear that we cannot fully understand the Canadian role in Mr. Arar's case without understanding the Canadian role in the cases of Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and Mr. Nureddin," he said.

Complicity by Canada is undeniable. That is why Arar was given an apology and awarded compensation (not that anything will compensate for the effect this has had on his life). As to the others, they have been released but I do not know if they have sought legal representation or if they have, where they might be in the process.

It seems, however, that the U.S. feels no need to apologize or remove Arar from their 'watch' list. He will probably use the Canadian compensation money to sue the U.S. He wants justice and he wants to make sure that other Canadians are not subjected to torture. We need more citizens like Arar in Canada.

Crazyhorse - The fact that Arar was tortured in Syria does not excuse the U.S. for sending him there. I have nothing to say about Syria or why they engage in torture. Why don't you question the U.S. policy of outsourcing torture?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 02:51 PM

Rather than make mean spirited remarks like you do, I prefer to ask for explanations of why your country did the same or worse to several people with out being mislead by the US.

Does this come under Holier than thou or the Hypocricy definition?

Also as noted, Mr. Arrar was not an innocent citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:07 PM

Mr. Arar is an innocent citizen of Canada. His military obligation to Syria has nothing to do with why he was deported to Syria nor does it have anything to do with why he was tortured.

The U.S. did not mislead Canada. As far as I know, it was the RCMP who misled the U.S. therefore the apology and the compensation from Canada. As to the others, I can only quote the article you linked above, " "Given what we've learned through the Inquiry, however, it is clear that we cannot fully understand the Canadian role in Mr. Arar's case without understanding the Canadian role in the cases of Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and Mr. Nureddin," he said.

I'm not mean-spirited, I'm just waiting for the U.S. to admit that they are complicit in the torture of innocent Canadian citizens. You seem to think that its justified because it was done in Syria. Were Mr. El Maati, Mr. Almalki and Mr. Nureddin sent to Syria because they had not fulfilled their military obligation to Syria? I think not.

Do you or do you not approve of torturing innocent Canadian citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: gnu
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 03:39 PM

dianavan.... "... As far as I know, it was the RCMP who misled the U.S." How, then, is the U.S. "complicit"?

I have NEVER followed this case. Just wondering how the U.S, is "complicit"?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:07 PM

I think we can all see why you have nothing to say.

You've been shown for exactly what you are

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 05:38 PM

gnu - I'm not sure if 'complicit' is the right term but it was the U.S. who prevented Arar from returning home and it was the U.S. who sent him to Syria.

I have nothing to say about Syria because it is obvious that if I disagree with torture, I disagree with the country doing the torture.

The whole affair was unjust and although Canada has admitted their part and their wrongdoing in this case, the U.S. has not.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:57 PM

Originally you did not say he was an innocent citizen of Canada.

You said he was an innocent citizen.

If a citizen of Syria has a military obligation and they do not fulfill that ogbligation, they are hot innocent.

Why did he and the others keep their Syrian citizenship?

Would they have been tortured if they had fulfilled their military obligations?

What would American have done if Canada had not alerted the US?

And what is the status of a non citizen at an international airport in the US? Are they officialy in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Jim Lad
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:29 PM

Tough times for the U.S. when they have to "Outsource" torture.
Love to see Lou Dobbs on that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:08 AM

I believe in stating all the facts instead of cherry picking them in a mean spirited attempt to shift the blame on others.

There are always two sides to every story.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 02:28 AM

And when did Canada start giving shit away?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:07 AM

"Would they have been tortured if they had fulfilled their military obligations?"

He was tortured because they thought he was connected to terrorists not because of so-called military obligations to Syria.

"Why did he and the others keep their Syrian citizenship?"

Probably for the same reason I kept my U.S. citizenship. Thats where I was born.

"And what is the status of a non citizen at an international airport in the US?"

He was not a non citizen, he was a citizen of Canada.

"And when did Canada start giving shit away?"

We will give you shit anytime you ask for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:43 AM

When did we ask for your shit? Your statement was give'em shit Canada.

I really don't want any of your mean spirited shit from Canada.

The information told to the US about your innocent citizen that did not fulfill his Syrian obligation and therefore wanted in Syria was shit and the reatment given to the other tree canadian citizens was shit.

A Canadian citizen is a non citizen in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:32 AM

Arar was not 'wanted' in Syria. In fact, they sent him first to Jordan because Syria did not want him.

He came to Canada when he was seventeen years old. Why would he feel obliged to serve in the Syrian military if he lived in Canada? He was denied entry into Canada by the U.S. and sent to be tortured because they thought he had terrorist connections. They were wrong.

The U.S. has no right to outsource the torture of Canadian citizens and they have no right to keep Arar's name on their list of suspected terrorists.

If you want to remain impotent, Dickie, thats your choice but Canadians actually care about their loss of freedom.

The U.S. asks for shit from Canada when it messes with our rights and refuses to admit to any wrongdoing.

So piss off, Dickie.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dicky
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

Yes, I am pissed off by the unwanted shit from Canada.

First Canada says don't let this man fly and then they say You have to apologize for being mislead by us.

"Arar:
Then a man from the INS came in and told me they wanted me to volunteer to go to Syria. I said no way...
..I called Monia's mother, who was here in Ottawa, and told her I was scared they might send me to Syria...
...They said they wanted to know why I did not want to go back to Syria. I told them I would be tortured there. I told them I had not done my military service; I am a Sunni Muslim; my mother's cousin had been accused of being a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and was put in prison for nine years...
...I overheard them talking on the phone, saying that Syria was refusing to take me directly, but Jordan would take me..."

They should have come down and got this guy and then they would be the ones turning him over to his native country where he was wanted like they did the other three.

U.S. says Arar should be on watch list

"Based on this reexamination, we remain of the view that the continued watch listing of Mr. Arar is appropriate," they wrote in their January 16 letter to Stockwell Day, Canada's minister of public safety.

"We want to ensure that this U.S.-derived information has been shared with Canada," Gonzales and Chertoff said, adding that they would welcome a confidential meeting with appropriate Canadian officials "at their earliest convenience."

In Ottawa, Day's office had no immediate reaction.

Are all Canadians as mean spirited as you?

By the way I used to have an older brother named Richard. To tell us apart, the family used to call him Big Dickey and me Little Dickey.

Now that he has passed away they call me Dickey.

That should give you something to chew on. ;D

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:02 PM

Stockwell Day is as stupid as George Bush--hard to believe as you may find that to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:29 PM

Oh, you mean Doris? :P

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:35 PM

Nope. Stockwell. The guy's an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 05:31 PM

That's an understatement.