Song arrangement.

Subject: Song arrangement.
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:18 PM

I need some help with arranging songs. I've only been able to do one, and only because I had already had some riffs and borrowed a slide from Paul Brady. How do you (whoever replies) arrange your songs without sounding boring (just strumming chords)? I wanted to broaden my ranges with guitar, and I just needed some help. Thanks for anything you contribute.

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:38 PM

Hi Chris,

Welcome to Mudcat!

What kind of music do you focus on most right now?

What past/current artists/styles do you consider your musical ancestors?

Whose work do you respect, and whose can't you stand?

Do you learn best by ear or by printed music (we call 'em dots around here), or tab?

Are you working on covers, or original material?

And finally, in what settings do you plan on using these arrangements-- solo or band, for pleasure or gigs, jams, sessions, etc.? Are you the vocalist or will you be accompanying? What level of experience do bandmates have among them?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 04:46 PM

It's a little hard to know where to start without knowing what your musical background and knowledge is. Can you read music? Do you know any music theory at all? Not that you have to have any formal study of music theory, but to do any arranging, you do have to know some (even if you don't know that's it's called that). Case in point:   are you familiar with the Circle of Fifths? What chords go with which keys?

Do you play with your right-hand fingers or do you use a pick? You can do a lot of things with a pick, but for real variety in rhythmic patterns, you really need to be able to play with your fingers.

Anyway, give me a rundown on what your musical knowledge and guitar skills are and I'll see what I can come up with.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:35 PM

Welcome to Mudcat! - Thank ya kindly

What kind of music do you focus on most right now? - Folk music; mainly Irish and Scottish

What past/current artists/styles do you consider your musical ancestors? - Luke Kelly (of course), Paul Brady, and Bob Dylan.

Whose work do you respect, and whose can't you stand? - I love all of Brady's and The Dubliners, can't really say I dislike any Irish music. But...I do dislike a lot of new music (anything after 1995)

Do you learn best by ear or by printed music (we call 'em dots around here), or tab? - Mainly by ear and tab.

Are you working on covers, or original material? - Both.

And finally, in what settings do you plan on using these arrangements-- solo or band, for pleasure or gigs, jams, sessions, etc.? Are you the vocalist or will you be accompanying? What level of experience do bandmates have among them? - Solo, a few accompanied, gigs and sessions, I am the vocalist, and my other accompanying man has had at least twenty year (probably way more).

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 08:39 PM

Sorry, forgot about you, Don. I do my things mainly with picks, but I'm mainly talking of fingerpicking/strumming in open G for my arrangements. I am slightly familiar with The Circle of Fifths, but not by that name. I normally just go by the way they sound (C = C, Am, F, G, G = G, Em, C, D, etc). I can read sheet music, but not very well (I taught myself how to play).

That should cover all the questions. Sorry for the vagueness of my first post, I was strapped for time!

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:41 PM

No, it wasn't vague; it's just that there are so many experienced people here that I am sure people who love what you love will want to help in the way that's most appropriate for what you're trying to do.

It sounds like basic chord progressions are not a problem for you. I'm thinking that what you might be aiming for is improvising around the melody but without the turnarounds basic to the rhythm parts in oldtime music or bluegrass... there have been some good past threads on how to do that; maybe I can dig one up and if so I'll put a link to it in here.

Enjoy your music, is the main thing, of course.

Oh wait-- I do know one thing that might help. Whistle, and with a tape recorder running to preserve it. Start by whistling the basic melody until you have it really well established in your mind. Then let the whistling start to weave around that melody line which you will now be hearing in your head-- embroider that tune. Follow that improvising where it will go.

When that runs out, listen to what you created and pick up your guitar so your fingers can fool around with accompanying what you're whistling. You'll double that melody some and improvise further, some, I bet. (Keep taping.) Some riffs will sound better to you and more interesting to you than others. Stick with them.

The more often you do this kind of thing, the more likely it is that you will discover what your improvisations have in common. Then you can start to do those same things not so much by fortuitous discovery, but on purpose.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:52 PM

Thanks, Susan. I was thinking of my arrangements being along the line of Paul Brady's songs; I love how he does melody and rhythm at the same time. I can really only do that on Sam Hall and Arthur McBride, but I want to learn how to really put in new riffs to the song while I play it to make it a little bit less of a "heard it once, heard it a hundred times" kinda thing.

Slan.

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:23 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 10:09 PM

I didn't have time to respond the other day, hope I'm not too late--

Before you start, it is a good idea to make a short inventory of the different kinds of things that you can do--different strums and picking patterns you know, as well as the devices, like bass runs, chord position leads, and various ways you know of playing scales--and the "cheap tricks" like slides, bends, tremelos, and such. Don't worry about adding to it, just think about the things you know, and have used in other tunes--and you don't need every possibility, just the ones you usually use, and like to use. And don't worry that you aren't a guitar hot shot--people like simple ideas, and not too many, at that, so that can actually be a plus--

Take a bit of time to do this, because it is really important, and it is the basis for what you're going to be doing from here on--think of it as your artist's palate--






The next thing to do is write out chords, measure for measure, for the whole length of the song that you intend to sing-- and mark them out, measure for measure--you should really do this on a music staff(even if you don't write out the notes,because it is easier,

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:03 PM

Sorry,Posted too soon!

Then mark the measures you'll sing, the intro and extro, the measures where you want to have fills and licks, and if you want, the ones that will be "Instrumental"--then mix and match what you want where from your palate.

For instance--say you have a 12-bar blues--

You're basic strum is a shuffle rhythm on an E chord
Four measure intro--

First Verse:
12 measures(I-sung,3-4 lick, 5-6 sung,7-8 lick,9-10 sung, 11-12 different or turnaround)
Second Verse:
12 measures(I-sung,3-4 lick, 5-6 sung,7-8 lick,9-10 sung, 11-12 different or turnaround)

Third Verse:
12 measure instrumental-with Walking bass line instead of vocal 1-2, alternating with original lick on 3-4, etc.

Fourth Verse
2 measures(I-sung,3-4 lick, 5-6 sung,7-8 lick,9-10 sung, 11-12 different or turnaround)
And Out

I like to mark it out on a music staff--but you can even just scribble notes around the lyrics, as long as it makes sense to you when you look at it later
(again, it is really easier to make sense out of if you use a musical staff, with measures numbered, with the bonus that other musicians can look at it and play it)

Of course, it doesn't need to be blues, it can be any other sort of thing--it works the same--the principle is simple: choose from what you know, and cut and paste--

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:08 PM

And, Paul Brady tends to use simple extensions to get that melody-like effect--that is, he plays a chord and adds a note above (or below) on the next beat--

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 01:39 AM

I wasn't familiar with Paul Brady until now. I just watched him on YouTube and I'm impressed. He's very good. Very, very good!

But his style and mine are very different. I have never used a pick in my life, studied classic guitar for several years, and play classical style--nylon-strings, wide fingerboard, and I use my right hand fingers.

Other than working out chords for songs, feeding in little melodic riffs with the fingers and bass lines with the thumb, I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to offer much advice. I'll keep watching this thread and if anything occurs to me, I'll chime in.

Good luck!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: pavane
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM

You could try using my program HARMONY, which adds chords to a melody.
This might lead to some ideas. It also does Guitar tab of the results.

(But as it does not use a chord dictionary, you may find some unusual versions or fingerings of chords!)

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: pavane
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:35 PM

Forgot the important bit - you can get it from my site

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: LukeKellylives (Chris)
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:23 PM

I just finished my personal arrangement of Tramps and Hawkers. Sounds decent; not Paul Brady material (but his guitar work did help a lot), but I think it's at least better than just a run-of-the-mill strum song. At least it's not as boring. I mainly just want to do these kinds of arrangements with songs like Spancil Hill, Arthur McBride, etc. Not really good enough to get in fingerpicked riffs with something like Star o' The County Down yet!

Thanks for the advice, guys. It helps!

Subject: RE: Song arrangement.
From: Grab
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 08:29 AM

Depends on whether we're talking about arranging accompaniment for songs, or arranging for solo guitar.

If the latter, a guitar (and guitarist) can usually handle three parts in an arrangement - bass, mid and high lines. Often the bass sets the basic chord, the mid is some kind of continuo and the high is the melody, but a good arrangement will often cross lines over each other, for example taking the tune into the middle line and having the high line become a harmony or counterpoint. I play Ashokan Farewell in DADGAD tuning, and the melody line for that goes over nearly two octaves so it might be in the high line at some points and down to the bassline at others, so it's a case of working out at each note which line the melody has gone into, and what the other lines should be doing around it to keep the tune moving. (And remember that rests are also a valid note if the tune doesn't need extra help at that point. :-)

For the technical side of arranging, remember that the same note can be played further up the neck on different strings, and often on open strings - open strings can give wonderful opportunities for harp-like runs up or down when you're playing above the 5th fret. Remember that sus2 and sus4 chords can give a nice effect, and open strings again are a good solution here. If you're reasonably familiar with altered tunings, remember that you can change your base tuning to make certain combinations of notes or fingerings possible (whilst also making other combinations impossible, so use with caution). Try playing with a capo and using different chords because that'll give a different tone, different chord inversions and different options for all those little hammeron and pulloff riffs, eg. if you're playing in G, try with capo 5 and playing D chords instead.

The same applies for accompaniment, but usually you're now looking at playing two parts on the guitar - bassline and continuo - whilst the voice supplies the melody line. Again the continuo can become a full-blown harmony or counterpoint, or it can just be a fingerpicked arpeggio to establish the background chord. And between verses or at other points where the singing stops, you might add some kind of lead line on the guitar (some kind of hook riff, possibly), so we're back to three active lines again.

Graham.