BS: Proof that Bush lied

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 02:15 PM

I meant to say:

"I believe Saddam did try to buy yellowcake from Niger but was unsuccessful"

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:44 PM

Amos,

"there was actually a genuine threat that Saddam could launch nuclear missiles at the United States, "


NOT what was claimed- it was that he had an active program to develop WMD, which he did.

"and Saddam really was among the perpetrators of the 9-11 attacks, "

Also never claimed/


Care to provide ANY examples of where Bush said either of these lies?

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:08 PM

Yeah, okay. Fine with me. I hope they do prove he lied, and prosecute him for it someday.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 01:04 PM

Apparently, we have a couple of nut cases who don't think Bush's lying to get us into this war is a big deal. IT IS A BIG DEAL!!! It's a very big deal. The truth is it doesn't matter whether he got us into this war if no charge of lying to accomplish it is ever leveled at him. It will be swept under the rug leaving the door wide open for a future president to do the same and hide behind this administration's lies to justify it.

The only way we can prevent this from happening again is to assert that Bush lied and take the appropriate action. THIS sends a message to future neocon-like political groups out there looking for a front man that this kind of thing will not be tolerated. By saying the lies don't really matter is, by definition, tolerating it. And nothing makes me sicker than hearing something justifed with "Well, everybody does it." I don't fucking care!!!! He lied, his lies have destroyed our Pax Americana, gotten hundreds of thousands killed, made folk heroes of terrorists, cost our nation our financial well-being and our military readiness and increased our debt to point that I don't think we can ever pay it off.

He lied, it's easily provable that he lied and he needs to be made to answer for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:25 PM

It is what Bush has DONE that primarily concerns me, not whether or not he lied while he was doing it. I suspect that all politicians lie to some extent. I think the job almost makes that mandatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:12 PM

No one lied, the American people were told the whole truth at every juncture. Hence the Downing Street memo scandal was all an invention, there was actually a genuine threat that Saddam could launch nuclear missiles at the United States, and Saddam really was among the perpetrators of the 9-11 attacks, Osama not withstanding. Teribus, you are a daisy indeed.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:34 AM

"The findings of every investigation into the decision to go to war... "

Well, as Mandy Rice-Davies famously said, "They would say that, wouldn't they."

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:33 AM

Terry, poppet, I suggest you read this from the post-Hutton BBC.
Then think again about your last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:32 AM

...and Dickey -

In my post of Feb. 12 - 7:01, I was laughing at your question of Feb. 12 - 6:09.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:23 AM

What I was referring to, GUEST,Dickey, was the post (12 Feb 07 - 09:23 PM) where you (or perhaps some other GUEST using your name) wrote:

"I believe Saddam did try to buy yellowcake from Nigeria but was unsuccessful", and to back that up gave a link to a report about Niger.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM

"But the intelligence was being ferociously spun by the neo-cons and their allies in an attempt to justify the war."

The "intelligence" was the contents of the UNSCOM Report to the United Nations Security Council, delivered in January 1999, both Scott Ritter and Dr. Hans Blix provided input and were responsible for the contents of this report. Damn near every intelligence service in the world believed it to be correct, even the Syrians believed it to be true, the vote for UNSCR 1441 was unanimous.

"The people at the sharp end, gathering rather than presenting, knew damned well that it was being spun and they are still seething about that."

"Utter bollocks", to use one of your own favourite expressions.

The findings of every investigation into the decision to go to war have been:

- that the spin was non-existant;
- no evaluation from the JIC Assessment Committee was ever suppressed or "doctored".

That the Prime Minister had described Saddam as posing an "imminent", or an "immediate", threat was exposed for what it was - a complete myth, no such thing was EVER said by any member of the British Government.

No-one lied, get over it, irrespective of how much you would like to believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: bobad
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:06 AM

From Wikipedia:

The Name Niger

The adjective form of Niger is Nigerien /niːˈʒɛɹiən/ or /naɪdʒɪɹiˈɛn/, which should not be confused with Nigerian /naɪˈdʒiɹiən/ for Nigeria and derives from the French nigérien, -ne. There are different opinions about the adjective form however. Merriam-Webster lists Nigerois (which has, despite its sound, no equivalent form in French) only as the noun form. However, there are instances of Nigerois having been used adjectivally. CNN and other news sources often circumvent using the adjective altogether, using the noun instead, e.g. 'the Niger parliament', 'Niger leader slain' or 'Niger's capital', 'Niger's people'. In French, the citizens of Niger use the adjective 'nigérien'.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: TIA
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:00 AM

"His job, as Commander-in-Chief of your armed forces and the elected Executive Head of State, is to safeguard the integrity, security and national interests of the United States of America"


integrity????

security????

national interests???


---FAILED

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:58 AM

MGH: What is the word for a person from Niger?

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:49 AM

It appears you're still getting Niger and Nigeria mixed up, Dickey, though you aren't the only one. It doesn't take long to check those kind of things.

It's a bit like getting confused between Iraq and Iran or Austria and Australis, or Zambia and the Gambia. People who do that kind of thing undermine their credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:31 AM

REPORT ON THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY'S PREWAR INTELLIGENCE ASSESSMENTS ON IRAQ
"..The intelligence report indicated that former Nigerien Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki was unaware of any contracts that had been signed between Niger and any rogue states for the sale of yellowcake while he was Prime Minister (1997-1999) or Foreign Minister (1996 1997). Mayaki said that if there had been any such contract during his tenure, he would have been aware of it. Mayaki said, however, that in June 1999, z businessman, approached him and insisted that Mayaki meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq. The intelligence reportsaid that Mayaki interpreted "expanding commercial relations" to mean that the delegation wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales. The intelligence report also said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to the UN sanctions on Iraq..."

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:22 AM

"national interests" is a pretty vague term. Care to elaborate, teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM

based on the best intelligence available at the time and upon the evaluation of such intelligence in relation to any given situation at that time
Absolutely. But the intelligence was being ferociously spun by the neo-cons and their allies in an attempt to justify the war. The people at the sharp end, gathering rather than presenting, knew damned well that it was being spun and they are still seething about that.
Bush and Blair were told what their acolytes thought they wanted to hear. And, on the rare occasions when someone dared pipe up with a converse view, they were told 'we don't want to hear this - don't come back until you're singing our tune.'
As such, to go back to the question that started this thread, I don't think that, at present, it's possible to say that Bush lied per se.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:13 AM

Sorry Amos, in any direct competition where on one hand we have the "national interests" of the United States of America, and on the other hand we have how the United States of America may be perceived for following a certain course of action to safeguard those "national interests" - The latter is going to lose hands down if the matter has to be dictated by the US Government - From their point of view quite rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM

Bush couldn't evaluate a Chiquita banana with any degree of accuracy. But then, that's why he's President. The folks who got him elected didn't want a thinker. And they didn't get one. They got Bush. His NIEs seem to have been skewed. I think Bush knew something wasn't quite right, but I also think he's too stupid to have been able to figure out what.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Amos
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:04 AM

Teribus,

Give it a rest. It should be obvious that PART of ensuring the safety and the "national interests" of the nation is ensuring it doesn't, as a nation, make a bleeding idiot out of itself or make enemies unnecessarily, or in an unjust cause.

Many of us saw through the facade of his conflationary tactics, and wondered if he, in fact, had some access to data we didn't, to be doing such bizarre things. As it turned out, he did not. The intelligence that fell short was his own ability to know when things make sense and when they do not, an ability one (IMHO) would expect to be demonstrated by either a good executive or a good Commander. As it has turned out he is neither.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:45 AM

"His job, as Commander in Chief, was to make sure that we went to war based on accurate and truthful information."

You are joking aren't you TIA?

His job, as Commander-in-Chief of your armed forces and the elected Executive Head of State, is to safeguard the integrity, security and national interests of the United States of America. He has to make decisions related to those aspects based on the best intelligence available at the time and upon the evaluation of such intelligence in relation to any given situation at that time.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:07 AM

We can never answer the question "Did Bush Lie?"

But it is not an important question.

His job, as Commander in Chief, was to make sure that we went to war based on accurate and truthful information. Clearly, we did not. Where does the buck stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 07:02 AM

OK, it looks like a post has been removed- and I can't see why...



"To 282RA

"He made statements he believed to be true and touted them to the the public as the fact he believed it to be BUT he KNEW it had NOT been proven and therefore could NOT be fact regardless of what he believed. "


So, YOU are lying to us?"

or something like that. Is there some editing going on here?

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Dickey - PM
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:23 PM

I took a look at the page you suggested.

It is full of gross spelling errors, and total illiteracy.

Who made it up - because it obviously is made up.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:31 PM

well, all you have to do is to look at the credibility of the Bush administration in the eyes of the public and the rest of the world- and theres your answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:23 PM

"I have seen no proof that Saddam tried to buy yellow-cake from Nigeria. Have you?"

No. I haven't seen any but I believe Saddam did try to buy yellowcake from Nigeria but was unsucessful.

What do you believe?

Read this: http://metacortex.humanfactors.uq.edu.au/lex/us_senate_intell_judgements/Map/data/iraqreport2_ocr.pdf~4.html

Go there and search for Niger. It will also shed light on the Joe Wilson ,Valerie Plame, Scooter debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 08:26 PM

Yes, Bush lied.

Is there "proof"? You mean like a secret presidential memo that says, "I'm lying and no one catch me," then, no, there's no proof of a tactile evidence that can be touched and examined and analysed for clues.

The proof is in the logic. Bush was telling people things he stated to be fact when he knew very well they were not facts, had not been proven. Doesn't matter what he believed and it doesn't quite wash for me that he can only be said to have been guilty of following bad advice or acting on bad intelligence. He lied--plain and simple. There's no other way to put it--nothing else that can be concluded. He told us things that he assured us were facts but which not one of his intelligence services would or could substantiate. That means, no matter what he believed to be true, he KNEW these could not be stated as facts because far too many important people and organizations doubted the authenticity. It would be essential to have the consensus of these organizations before Bush's assertions could be called facts and Bush did not have this consensus and knew perfectly that he did not have it.

If I devise a cold fusion experiment and a few scientists jump on my bandwagon while the overwhelming remainder of that community knows my experiment was flawed and the results therefore meaningless, I can believe still believe it and only be a victim of my own bad intelligence. But the instant I tell the public that my experiment did, in fact, prove cold fusion was true--I am lying. It has NOT been proven and I cannot help but know that it had not been proven because the majority of the scientific community has solid reasons to doubt my results and methodology. Until I have consensus from them, my own peers, any claim to fact by me is a lie and could only be a lie because I am saying something I must know is not true.

This is precisely what Bush did. He made statements he believed to be true and touted them to the the public as the fact he believed it to be BUT he KNEW it had NOT been proven and therefore could NOT be fact regardless of what he believed.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:36 PM

So that explains why there were no troops available to guard the museums - or the weapon dumps...

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:31 PM

Al-Tuwaitha

Has anyone wondered why US Marines were ordered to guard a warehouse that contained--and had contained about 500 tons of yellowcake since 1991? "What were 500 tons of yellow cake uranium still doing at the nuclear research center of Al—Tuwaitha in Iraq when American tanks rolled into Bagdhad?" That was in 2004, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:24 PM

And now Little Fascist Johnny has attacked a certain Democrat Presidental hopeful for wanting to pull out of the mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:16 PM

The worst fault a leader can have is to become good at lying to himself! Then, he can say almost anything with what passes for a 'clear conscience'.

Bush and his cronies had a NEED to find certain things...so they grasped at any vague implications or weak evidence for what they wanted. Whether promulgating this is lying or not is almost irrelevant now. The fact is, their entire plan, justification and understanding of what it meant to entering Iraq was flawed and poorly executed.
   They were WARNED by experts that they would run afoul of the sectarian conflicts, but they chose to listen to those who said, "oh, it'll be fine...they'll be glad to see us!"

   Whether there was 'lying' in the original plan or not, there sure is lying now about who screwed up and major deception about how they are gonna get OUT of all this quagmire!

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:15 PM

There is lots on the www about the issue of 'yellow cake' sales and attempts to buy and what the Brits said to the Yanks. The Niger/Nigeria mix up no doubt comes for the use of an unfortunate adjective. I would GUESS that someone somewhere heard a person refer to yellow cake from Niger as 'Nigerian yellow cake' and now Nigeria is involved in the fiasco. What a difficult language we have.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 07:01 PM

Dickey -

I have seen no proof that Saddam tried to buy yellow-cake from Nigeria. Have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:56 PM

"Lying can mean the utterance of untruths, or can mean not uttering the truth, or can mean the selective uttering of the truth to imply something that is false."

The oath taken by a witness in A Court of Law is to 'tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth'

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:48 PM

Did Bush Lie? Does it matter now?

There's now so much insulation between him & any inquiry that the leads & the trails & tales will all grow cold before any one gets warm & close to the truth. Truth is the appearance of his lies are so damaging that he might as well have lied, if he didn't (my opinion is he did, many times) the out come becomes the same. It appears that he was lied to & it appears that he knew it. He was top dog & should have had intellegance weither his own or his close knit group, none had intellegance, now or then. Their heads should roll for no braining it on their own. That incompetance is reason enough. Beyond their not looking into it further in their mad rush to war they now have a split nation on their hands that doesn't trust a move they now make which costs our government daily in it's decision making process. The way that Bush & company has continued to handle "THE LIE(S)" only caused more speculation. Who's voice can the nation trust? No a one! We have been given no reliable info from jump street & still get nothing worth the air it's played on. The lack of info is the fault of Bush & company & it comes back full circle to bite us all on the ass. We didn't demand it & we never got it. Congress rolled over on the people, as well as the media. Most lied by not demanding the truth, espically when a nation goes to war over it. I'd go as far as to say that we are all either victims or as guilty as those who rolled over the rest. He should've been called on his lies then & still should be called on them today. If he doesn't like being called to task on it or can't hear the call he should be tossed out & hung to dry.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:32 PM

Map of Nigeria

Map of Niger

Two different countries. Do try to sort out which you are talking about, people.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:21 PM

Don't blame me for THAT one. Coincidence in the name is all. Sheer coincidence!

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:19 PM

Iraq had a reactor from the 1950's era US Atoms for Peace program.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:13 PM

I think that Iraq HAD weapons of mass destruction. I also think that the dickin' around the UN inspection teams did allowed those weapons to exit the country. Kinda like, "We'll be coming to your house in three days to see if you have any marijuana plants growing, and if you do you will be arrested." DOH

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 06:09 PM

Dianavan:

Do you beleive that Saddam did not try to buy Uranium ore from Nigeria?

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:53 PM

If you want to sell a lie sucessfully Kevin, the maximum number of people that can be involved is three, or less.
What absolute bollocks!
It's not even worth dignifying that twaddle with a detailed refutation.
And as for the SIS thoughts on Niger - who have you asked, Terry? There are major misgivings about the way suspicions and rumours were seized upon and presented as fact. You'll find few in the service who have much of a regard for the way their work was presented.
And quite a few who believe that Blair's policy has made their job harder and increased the risk to all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:46 PM

On the Niger/Uranium thing - British Intelligence has never walked back on what it passed on to the US. They have always thought that there was something there.

MGOH - The UNMOVIC Inspections were stopped and the US and their Coalition partners acted because Iraq was considered to be in material breach of UN Security Council Resolution 1441 on seven counts. The President of the United States of America and the Government of the United States of America had made it abundantly clear to both the United Nations and to Saddam Hussein that they would act if the UN did not.

MGOH - your step-by-step outlined in your post of 12 Feb 07 - 11:18 AM, is ludicrous. There would be no way that anything like that could be kept under wraps. If you want to sell a lie sucessfully Kevin, the maximum number of people that can be involved is three, or less.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:27 PM

Dickey -

"Mr. Bush said in his address to Congress in January that the British government had learned that Saddam recently sought significant quantities of uranium in Africa.

The president's statement in the State of the Union was incorrect because it was based on forged documents from the African nation of Niger, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said Monday."

From CBS

Jeez - You'd think that the Prez would want to double check with Niger before jumping to conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 04:19 PM

"I'm sorry Dickey, but a single quote taken in isolation from a report means, er, what exactly?"

Obviously it means nothing to you because it does not say GWB lied. You can click the link and read it if you want to but you prefer private opinons from anti bush blogs.

Do you beleive that Saddam did not try to buy Uranium ore from Nigeria?

I beleive he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:47 PM

Blix stated in the UN reports that he was UNABLE to verify whether Saddam had an active WMD Program, since he did not get sufficient cooperation ( as required by all the UN resolutions).

" And I think since then there has been considerable substantiation of the notion that the WMD charge was fabricated."

AT THE TIME, the information presented was thought to be correct- so how is THAT a lie?

The validity of Saddam's WMD program is UNKNOWN-

LACK OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF LACK>

I could suppose YOU have information the rest of us do not have as to the contents of those trucks which went from various sites and storage depots into Syria ( and perhaps other countries)

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:33 PM

Crazy Horse, feel free.

Bruce, I wish you wouldn't just fling such broad statements around. What on earth are you referring to, that I accepted claims of Saddam? That he had no WMD? I was operating more on Blix than Hussein. And I think since then there has been considerable substantiation of the notion that the WMD charge was fabricated. The only motives I have been able to discover for such a distortion of intelligence is (a) wanting to break the French contract for oil which Saddam had made with Elf Aquitaine and (b) wanting to stop him from having aloose cannon effect on the OPEN market strategies and the Saudian control thereof.

I could be wrong about the motives.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:39 PM

In fact I'm going to quote your complete remark everytime a religious thread appears.

Extreme claims require extreme measures of evidence. The assertions of a fanatic don't pass the stink test, sorry.
Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:36 PM

Extreme claims require extreme measures of evidence

I hope you're not religious or you have one hell of a problem now

Subject: RE: BS: Proof that Bush lied
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:32 PM

So, we should ignore YOU?


You seemed willing to accept the unsubstantiated claims of Saddam. So who's the fool, now?