Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers

Subject: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Teachers Pet
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:21 PM

I am not disparaging teachers, just a question which has niggled at me for some time.
In any folk gathering (UK) I have attended the majority will be connected with teaching/education. Spouses, siblings, friends or working directly in education. I attended a festival and photographed the group I was with and later realised that of the fourteen persons in the photo, twelve were directly connected to teaching (I am not but sister and many in-laws are).
Any other gathering there may be one / two but no-where near the ratio in folk.
This has crossed my mind many times in the past and wondered if any mudcatters could explain.

(I am a member but dont want to risk upsetting my mudcat teaching friends who may mis-interpret my intent which is purely educational)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:25 PM

You forgot Social Workers TP! My theory is that the majority of folkies are left leaning politically, also true of teachers and social workers!
G ¦¬]

Sits back and awaits the flak.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:27 PM

Word of mouth is what teachers do, how they function, and what folk is, to a large degree. It's a good fit.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:30 PM

Folk music was always the style of music that most focused on lyrical content.....words....therefore it tends to attract people who are strong in their literacy skills. It also tends to attract people who are interested in knowing about past history in detail. It's just natural that people who are drawn to folk music would also tend to be the types who would go into teaching.

Most other styles of music are more about "the groove". They're more physical, in other words. Or they're primarily about emotion/sexual attraction ("love songs"). The style of music that appeals most directly to thinking about and focusing on the meaning of the song is folk music.

It is a teacher's job to think, to focus on meaning, and to impart that to others. (at least it should be, anyway...)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:45 PM

I think the number of IT types is rising these days. Agreed that teachers and social workers still dominate, but eventually the geek shall inherit the earth.
Folk also seems to attract a lot of OCD/Asperger's types.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:50 PM

I wonder to whom he could be referring?
G.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Ernest
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:01 PM

A teachers pet with an educational interest....

Who would have guessed that?

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Teachers Pet
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:18 PM

Great thoughts.

Thanks for sharing.

Any more?

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:26 PM

I think there's a lot in what Little Hawk says as regards Teachers.
Whilst there are strong historical links between the Left & the Folk world on both sides of the Atlantic, Social Workers tend to be agents of social control & gatekeepers to services, consequently it is an unattractive career choice to many on the left.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Little Robyn
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:35 PM

In NZ most of the early folk clubs (in the 60s)were at universities and teacher's training colleges. Teachers were encouraged to use music and singing in class and folk material was perfect for this.
The Folkways records like Birds, beasts bugs and little fishes, School days and Songs to grow on were available here and school broadcasts included similar songs.
But don't forget librarians.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:45 PM

This may have been the case in the U.K. also Robyn.
The late 'sixties & early 'seventies was the period of my own Primary education & at that time most younger Teachers and virtually all Student Teachers were actively involved in Folk music.
Which fact enriched my Primary Education massively.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:50 PM

IMO, teachers are certainly not left-leaning. Quite the opposite. As was noted above with social workers, teachers are also agents of social control. A darned good estimate of how teachers vote is right in line with the general population. As to teachers being involved with folk music, most teachers aren't. However, many teachers do play instruments and are involved in music to one degree or other.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 02:55 PM

I was referring to the UK Bruce, where I have some knowledge of the matter, no doubt it is different in other countries.
By left leaning, I mean Socialist.
G.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:07 PM

er perhaps they are intelligent

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:15 PM

sorry surely the long summer holiday break at festival time has something to do with it! It less long than it was nowadays and this is not a disparaging remark since it was a teacher that told me it was what had encouraged her to take part in folk music.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Teachers Pet
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:23 PM

Peace - 'As to teachers being involved with folk music, most teachers aren't'.

Not quite what I wrote. My point is (in the UK) most 'folkies' are involved in teaching. A subtle difference.

But thanks for all your thoughts - very interesting views and IF I was a teacher I would award you all gold stars (do they still do that?)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: AlexB
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:40 PM

I know a lot that are engineers.

Folkies that is, not teachers.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Bee
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:19 PM

Perhaps the folk music comes first and the teaching second. Most people know or fear they won't be able to make a living from music, and teaching is an almost guaranteed steady job with a certain amount of free time to pursue what you really love.

Natalie MacMaster, despite her success, continued to go to university until she could get a teacher's licence, and good Cape Breton girl that she is, I'm sure in the back of her mind was a worry that she'd need a job of that sort some day. Young women in Nova Scotia, at least, have been urged to 'get a teacher's licence', if it was at all possible, for about a century. It was, until pretty recently, considered the essential back-up, the 'break in emergency' fire-axe behind glass, to be used in case of sickly husband, widowhood, or spinsterhood.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:25 PM

Perhaps its the drive to perform without entertaining.......

I suspect passing on this great and worthy tradition is the sort of worthwhile activity that would attract someone with a precise knowledge of transitive verbs.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:30 PM

My God yes, Teachers and Social Workers, I noticed this phenomenon 30 years ago and don't get me wrong they're not all bad but quite a few are a right bloody pain in the arse! Teachers are great ones for, well teaching! the only thing is a lot of them don't know when to bloodywell stop! The number of times I've sat in a folk club and been 'taught' how to sing a chorus by a teacher on his/her night off!...like being back at school without the caning if you happened to make your chair squeak during a music lesson, strange isn't it that the only three times I was beaten during school back in the sixties, two of them were in music lessons which I actually used to enjoy!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:35 PM

Heh! Now we need a thread asking the question "Why does 'folk' attract so few death-metalheads and rappers?".

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Sparticus
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:37 PM

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach and many develop a leaning towards folk music. Is it "a lesson too late for the learning"???
I'm only joking.
Perhaps the intellectualisation of folk music is responsible for this and there again, perhaps not. How many traditional singers and musicians were teachers? I don't know but what they have passed on has taught us a lot. Could that be a connection? All depends on what your definition of a teacher is.
Furthermore, how many teachers have left the profession and become professional folk singers? I bet you can all name one.
Bob Fox tob start with.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:38 PM

I thought rappers epitomised Folk! :-)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:46 PM

Is epitomising a good thing or a bad thing?

Giok, point taken. It is not that way here.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Phil Manchester
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:48 PM

This is surely a 'chicken and egg' chronology issue. Folk music (in England at least) was defined mainly by 'teachers' so it is no surprise that what is generally thought of as folk music nowadays attracts those who invented it in the first place.
Real folk music - if there is such a thing - was/is often far removed from that preserved (probably by teachers) at the EFDSS and the BBC.
(This is not to say, incidentally, that this is not good stuff - its just that it is only part of the story)
The music I heard as a youngster, sung by good old boys in pubs in remote parts of East Anglia in the 60s/70s, included music hall songs('Oh Joe the boat is going over' and 'Tarpaulin Jacket'), crude ditties and even contemporary pop songs ('The Glory of Love', I remember was a particular favourite). There weren't any teachers around to say whether it was folk music or not - although there were a few engineers joining in lustily on choruses:-)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Bee
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:48 PM

To be honest, Sparticus, most of the teachers and social workers I've known haven't been what you'd call 'intellectuals'. I don't mean they weren't bright, just usually not that interested in literature or the arts generally. Perhaps it is different here, but teaching school has always been regarded as achievable for the majority of students, with a sure job at the end of college.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:52 PM

The folk process IS teaching. Not so much modern classroom or private tutorial type teaching, but an older more instinctive, natural process. Part parenting, part coaching, part leading by example, part demonstrative, part trial and error, part guided, part unguided, tested and proved by uncounted generations...

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:54 PM

Yeah, I know several people who started as teachers and then became folksingers. Eileen McGann, for instance, is one on the Canadian circuit who fits that description.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:06 PM

Some of us are ex-forces,too !! There"s me for starters (Navy)--Cyril Tawney, of course (Navy )--Bill McKinnon (RAF )-Shep Woolley (Navy) --The one in the "Spinners" with "ROMFT" on his guitar (Navy)-I know there are more of you out there----!! Any more names for the list ?? We need more RAF & some Army -types. There"s at least one ex-Royal Marine who goes to Miskin, I think !!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:32 PM

I had four remarkable professors at university. Of the four, one was ex Royal Marines and another a Lt Commander, Canadian Navy.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:54 PM

Leadfingers is ex RAF, Teribus is a matelot, I was what you'd disdainfully call a pongo...let's rise up and depose all these bloody teachers. The b*ggers do get the holidays, though. Sods.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:00 PM

A range of occupations that do not require social skills?

I didn't used to teach, but now I also do (lecture).

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:16 PM

There"s nothing wrong with pongos !! I spent a very happy Christmas 1968 in a place called Loyang,near RAF Changi ,in Singapore,in a RN married-quarter bungalow( complete with Armah !) along with an Able Seaman , an RAF corporal, and a Pongo called Stan,from Bristol,who was an accomplished classical Guitarist !! Most convivial !! And ,when I was on the Naval Air Command Boat Section up Haslar Creek,in Gosport,there were some splendid army lads there from the Port Service Regiment at St.Georges Barracks !! Every day that they were at sea in their LSTs,they got a tot of rum,while the Navy"s tot had been discontinued-----Oh ! How those boys loved to rub it in !!!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:23 PM

"they got a tot of rum,while the Navy"s tot had been discontinued-----Oh ! How those boys loved to rub it in !!!"

Lubricated and kinky too. What a combo!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:37 PM

I certainly noticed how many teachers there were in the folk clubs of the 60s and 70s and put it down to their 'performing in front of an audience' skills. Curiously, I did the opposite. Learnt my performing skills in folk clubs, then went on to teach in a university.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:12 PM

Uninspired, dull, out of touch with the real world, full of their own self importance, complacent .............. need I go on?
Sums up both communities I think.

Captain Swing (a teacher and ex folkie)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:18 PM

Sorry, forgot to mention, obesessively concerned with how things used to be.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:19 PM

People didn't talk like that in the old days.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:02 PM

At my folk club we had not one, but two school heads, plus three teachers. We're now down to only one school head and no teachers due to them all getting cheesed off and taking early retirement. On the Forces side, my nephew is a RM commando and is learning banjo - I had thought to tell him to learn a proper instrument, like a guitar, but decided this may be a bit risky in view of his training..... Not sure if they have folk clubs in Afghanistan, but when they do, he may well find he's in demand!!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:15 PM

I hope your nephew stays safe, Arnie.

I also hope the banjo is not perceived as a weapon of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: number 6
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:36 PM

One of the finest folk artists here in Saint John (if not New Brunswick) is a mailman. Another that I know who is an unknown, but has one the most harmonic voices I ever heard is a fisherman from Dipper Harbour New Brunswick.

biLL

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:17 AM

Teaching profession, now retired I beleive. Still singing.

Graham Moore Graham Moore

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Sooz
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:38 AM

Many of us spend our days performing to a largely unwilling audience and it is good therapy to perform to an appreciative crowd at the folk club!
I was a folkie long before I was a teacher btw.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 03:09 AM

So is it the folk music that drives people to becoming teachers?

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 03:45 AM

In my case the question can be reversed! I was a "folkie" for 20 years before training to be a teacher. Of course, the "teacher" connection has resulted in lots of folk clubs in the UK closing down for the school holidays in the summer.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 04:38 AM

According to Richard Stillgoe and Peter Skellern, they're Quantity Surveyors!

LTS

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Alec
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 04:41 AM

And a disproportionately large number of the Morrismen I have known have been Architects.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: shepherdlass
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 05:17 AM

3 possible reasons (from a non-teacher) :-

Teachers - passing information down the generations.
Tradition - passing music, etc, down the generations.

Also, standing up to face a folk club might be considered good preparation for potential teachers. There are some folkies whose heckling is so developed not even the most dysfunctional child could come close.

And - 6 weeks holiday in summer = freedom to attend summer festivals.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Muttley
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:26 AM

As a 'chalkie' myself and also one who has been botha paramedic and a Youth Worker in my evil past; I would concur with Little Hawk who wrote: "Folk music was always the style of music that most focused on lyrical content.....words....therefore it tends to attract people who are strong in their literacy skills. It also tends to attract people who are interested in knowing about past history in detail. It's just natural that people who are drawn to folk music would also tend to be the types who would go into teaching."

Alec backed this one up; and I think, correctly. Little Robyn also made a very valid observation in that (apparently in NZ) a lot of 'Folk Clubs' got a start at Teachers Colleges and such - it happened here in Australia, too.

Less so these days.

I must admit, it's the history buff inside me that hungers for the folk music I crave and the "need" to pass on history, custom and legend through music and song that drives me.

I'm not sure there are a LOT of teachers involved in Folk these days though; maybe the profession is attracting a diffeent type of persona? A helluva lot of teachers I know aren't at all interested in folk music and a lot more couldn't carry a tune in a bucket let alone PLAY!

However, I do have one question for Capt. Ginger:

What makes you connect Aspergers and Folk?

I have to ask because I am a teacher, a folkie and also an Aspie (that's what Asperger's people prefer to call themselves.

Muttley

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:40 AM

Merely an observation, based on seeing many of the traits reflected in and around folk music followers - poor pick-up of social cues, an obsessive interest in a subject, unusual tics and an astonishing ability with a particular instrument or style that isn't reflected in other aspects of the person.
As I say, it was an observation and not intended as perjorative.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 09:46 AM

A lot of professional musician, jazz & pop, seemed to have got started in Art Schools. I wonder how many visual artists went to Music Colleges??

RtS
(retired librarian and full-time layabout)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: synbyn
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 02:56 PM

Relief...

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Teachers pest
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM

Teachers feel safe in the safe world of folk and jazz.They also like to dress in big jumpers,grow beards and rekindle the hippie theme.They are performers in their job and in the little world of folk clubs.If you have a problem with the teachers you had at school,go to a folk club and ask him or her all the questions you ever wanted answering.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Alec
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 03:58 PM

Thinking back to the number of 60'S Graduate teachers involved in Folk made me think abot Toni Arthur,
She was not a Teacher by occupation (Her training was an intriguing combination of acting,music & Nursing)but was heavily involved in educational Television for the very young (most particularly "Playschool"). In addition to this she had a significant presence as a Folk singer & Musician in her own right.
She was by no means atypical of her generation in respect of any of the above & I have always thought of her as a "good type".
Anybody know what she's doing these days?

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:11 PM

Do you mean this one

http://www.goldilox.co.uk/engfolk/frames/dave_and_toni_arthur.htm

and this

http://www.toniarthur-hay.com/home.html

and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Arthur

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Alec
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:21 PM

That's the splendid chapess to whom I referred Villan.
And I was just looking at a seperate part of the Goldilox site yesterday.
It would seem that pretty much everything she's done in the past 30 years or so has gone completely beneath my RADAR.
Ah well, I'm pleased she's still out there doing good stuff.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:45 PM

And this on Dave Arthur

http://www.davearthur.net/biog.html

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: DeeRod
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:47 PM

Remember, in the sixties (and a little before in my case),folk music and political activism were very largely property of the liberal arts crowd. An engineer in f m was a rarity and (hooray) compu geeks didn't exist (a computer was a thing that took up the third floor of the engineering building and only profs were allowed to touch it)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: bubblyrat
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:56 PM

When it comes to Scotch, why does Teachers attract so many folkies ??

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:52 PM

Cos its cheap?

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:56 PM

he he

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Muttley
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:53 PM

BUBBLYRAT - that was woeful: Besides which, Teachers Whisky is rubbish; I prefer a nice Glenfiddich, Tomatin or even the odd Dalwhinnie or Talisker (can't get Tomatin over here so I have to wait for someone going to Britain to bring one back with them).

Anyone migrating soon???

CAPT. GINGER - no perjorative was implied as far as I could see and no offence taken, I was just curious as to why you felt Aspies might be attracted - I cab see your point is well made and I probably DO have a bit of an obsession with folk (like I need another one) but I guess I'm not familiar enough with the folk scene with regard to clubs and festivals to apply a valid counter observation - so you could well be correct.

However, as opposed to folk as a tradition or music style which attracts Aspies; I do have a couple of (possibly) more valid observations as to why we are attracted to folk MUSIC, as such.

ONE - it's generally low-key and relaxing with soothing sounds and these are things a lot of Aspies enjoy; sudden loud noises tend to rattle us or even alarm and agitate us. Though I love rock music and especially Heavy Metal, I probably learned to love it because that's what a lot of people were listening to when I was a teen and I started doing so because it looked like a way to gain acceptance to a social grouping I didn't understand or relate to well. Generally an Aspie will unreasoningly despise a new music form until he or she sees a lot of people enjoying it and will then listen to it and 'pretend' to like it until they actually DO - it happened to me with an Australian Glam Rock group ca;;ed 'Skyhooks' - hated them at first, listened to them because others liked them (trying to fit in) and then ended up obsessing about them - went to 11 of their concerts in Melbourne over the course of about 3 or 4 years.

TWO - word play.   Aspies, in the main, tend to love word play, puns, word puzzles, language variation, old word usage etc. It fascinates many of us. The use of old language - especially really old English tends to excite me no end; especially in cases like the Steeleye Span song 'Gaudete'; absolutely thrills me. Another is the song that goes:
"I had four brothers across the sea
Peri, Meri, Dixi, Dominie
And each they sent a present to me
Peri, Meri, Dixi, Domini . . . . .

and the chorus

Petrum, Partrum, Paradisi, Tempore,
Peri, Meri, Dixi, Domini

The flow of these words is like honey and just soothes me every time I hear them (anyone know the name of the song / have the lyrics / have the chords ????)

So. In essence - word play might attract them.

Lastly, the observation about 'tics' - Aspies don't display them. What you are seeing is hand "flapping" or "flutterin". Aspies tend to odd arm and especially hand movements that don't appear connected to what they are doing. You'll see them most often when they are alone (which is MOST of the time - most other people don't want us around) and especially if talking to themselves - imagination talk; reliving conversations or (more likely) rebuttals - but these are not 'tics' as such.

If an Aspie actually displays a 'tic' it's asymptomatic of their condition and probably one they have picked up like any "normal" would. Actual 'tics' are usually associated with Torettes; (or Huntington's Chorea - where the "tics" tend to be "whole body extreme" and more like convulsive movements.

Muttley

Good observation, otherwise - might have to investigate it in my own growing understanding of my "condition".

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: mg
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:00 PM

I haven't noticed that at all. There are a fair number in the engineering and computer professions it seems. mg

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: melodeonboy
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 08:47 PM

"Generally an Aspie will unreasoningly despise a new music form until he or she sees a lot of people enjoying it and will then listen to it and 'pretend' to like it until they actually DO" said Muttley.

Sorry to be cynical: I thought most people were like that!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 09:19 PM

There are many accute observations here about this connection particularly yours Litte Hawk. Historically teachers were an important part of the early twentieth century folk revival.Cecil Sharp saw teachers as essential agents for the re-establishment of Britain's traditional national music. "Folk Songs for Schools" was another strand of his project to counteract what was seen as the undermining influence of German and Italian music upon the British national spirit. When I was at school in the fifties and sixties this influence of Cecil Sharp was still very much in evidence.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Muttley
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 10:39 PM

Dear mg - if you are referring to Aspies in engineeing and computers you are right.
If you consider those two professions you can see why. The mathematics and physics associated don't change suddenly: once a law is set it generally stays there and that kind of stbility in dealing with something is perfectly suited to the Aspie psyche.

In fact it was the high number of computer geeks in Silicone Valley that were observed and noted to have Asperger-like qualities that led to them being investigated and actually found to be just that - a high (disproportionate) number of Silicone Valley workers WERE Aspies! It was Silicone Valley that highlighted the fact that Aspergers (identified in the 30's and 40's) was alive and kicking and led to more studies about the condition.

Finally - again, think about it: when all you have to deal with is a computer program or an engineering problem, the steps are logical and one doesn't have to try to make sense of complex human personalities and interactions - its a perfect world for an Aspie there. No confusion and a computer can't reject you because you are "socially inept".

BTW - were you aware that the world's richest man is also an Asperger? Bill Gates - if you want to see a classic vision of Aspie confusion, watch the video clip of him being "cream pied". He looks stunned as opposed to outraged or humiliated - he simply cannot understand why someone has done this because he cannot comprehend the motives behind the "attack" is it a joke, is it malign - what???

Also; Newton, Beethoven and Mozart were also most probably Aspies.

Muttley

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 02:58 PM

Cos being the centre of attention is all they know

Sal

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 04:45 PM

As was pointed out earlier, in Oz, Teachers' Colleges played a major part in the formation of folk festivals. From 1967 to 1992 the National was peripatetic between major cities (usually capitals) and the usual venue was some sort of educational institution.

While I've been a teacher for many years I'd have to say my singing/dancing/etc started well before I became a teacher. From earlier posting it's clear there are lots of quite different vocations represented amongst folkies, which reminds me of an event at Nariel in (from memory) 1980.

The local forestry officer got his knickers in a knot about the fact that all these disreputable folkies skinnydipped in the creek; an amendment to the Health Act gave him absolute powers over camping within the metric equivalent of half a mile of any watercourse so he started throwing his weight around. He commented to a very cleancut member of our group (a lawyer in the Army Reserve) that folkies were

"just a mob of unemployed layabout yobbos, and the further up the creek you go the worse they get!"

Well, we were the most upstream group, the ones who kept the locals from swimming in the town's water supply during the festival and were most offended. That evening, around the fire, we did a headcount of the 30 odd campers around our fire. I can't remember them all (there were people from Victoria, Adelaide, Sydney and Canberra) but here's what I can remember.

Victoria's only forensic toxicologist, two solicitors, two accountants, one of Victoria's three permanent school camp directors (me), a couple of nurses, two of the east coast's 20 elctronics technical writers, a few teachers, two physiotherapists; it went on and on like this and the least 'formally qualified' was a skilled cabinet maker. There was very little nonsense talked thereafter about the working class being a dominant force in current folk music.

The Victorian Premier was deluged with mail from all over Australia about this threat to Australia's longest running folk festival (I don't think he knew what had hit him; he wasn't even aware of the festival) and it's still running. But the forestry officer was moved on.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 05:12 AM

And "disreputable folkies" are still happily skinny-dipping in Nariel Creek every year. That is part of its charm. It's one of the few places you can go in Oz at that time of year where you can get some relief from the summer heat. Much more comfortable than Woodford or Gulgong!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:29 PM

And, while "disreputable folkies" are still happily skinny-dipping in Nariel Creek every year, it's largely the same ones that were doing it in the '70s; their teenaged offspring (who are every bit as adept at performing music, dance, circus etc as their parents) are much more "reputable".

Jenny, is my memory really hopeless? Have we met at Nariel? [Must be all that combining teaching and folking that's tangled the grey matter.]

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Jess A
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:54 AM

Muttley - for your Peri, Meri, Dixi, Dominie, see this thread thread.cfm?threadid=9589#999779

I liked the sound of it from the bit you quoted so thought I'd take a look. You never know, I might learn it at some point - thanks for that!

Jess A

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:43 PM

Muttley, I was under the impression that the reason for there being so many Aspies in engineering, maths etc was because that was what they were skilled at, not because that was what they were comfortable in. (My interest is because I've had a number in my classes over recent years, which has presented some problems - there I am trying to stir up the others into some sort of alertness and thinking process, while that sort of performance is totally the opposite of what the Aspies need.)

It's not gold stars now, by the way, it's stickers and stamps. smiley faces, trite slogans....

Penny

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:42 AM

My point is (in the UK) most 'folkies' are involved in teaching

Is there any evidence for this statement? I know more folkies who are not involved in teaching, than those that are. Perhaps my experience doesn't reflect the national picture, though?

IME folkies come from all walks of life, which is what I find interesting.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:50 AM

Sorry, a bit late on this thread. I was pleased to see the mentions of Toni Arthur. I played on the same bill as Dave & Toni a few times, and I remember chatting her up (behind Dave's back of course! ;-)) when she was a nurse at UCH - she was (and presumably still is) a smashing person. Haven't seen her for 30+ years, sadly.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Alec
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:58 AM

I was quite keen myself Scrump.(Though I never actually met her)
Looking back upthread where I had intended to type "...made me think about Toni Arthur" I have actually typed "...made me think abot Toni Arthur" Freudian slip?
(She is a Psychologist after all.)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Teachers Pet
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:06 PM

Scrump
What I wrote was - In any folk gathering (UK) I have attended the majority will be connected with teaching/education. Spouses, siblings, friends or working directly in education.
…………..

I will add to that ex-spouses etc. To further add to my experience which is all I can give an opinion on, (yours may be different), even on this thread, comments are :-

it was a teacher that told me it was what had encouraged her to take part in folk music

……………. despite her success, continued to go to university until she could get a teacher's licence

yes, Teachers and Social Workers, I noticed this phenomenon 30 years ago

Yeah, I know several people who started as teachers and then became folksingers.

I didn't used to teach, but now I also do (lecture).

Learnt my performing skills in folk clubs, then went on to teach in a university

Captain Swing (a teacher and ex folkie)

At my folk club we had not one, but two school heads, plus three teachers.

I was a folkie long before I was a teacher

I was a "folkie" for 20 years before training to be a teacher

I have to ask because I am a teacher, a folkie ………..

heavily involved in educational Television

While I've been a teacher for many years

My interest is because I've had a number in my classes
....................
All these comments just from posters to this thread. I have not said ALL folkies are teachers nor ALL teachers are folkies. Just 'in my experience' that teaching is predominant above other jobs/trades/professions.
I asked out of interest & have heard some very convincing theories. When discussing with friends (non-teachers) the general feeling seems to be that folk music was the 'in thing' at universities,colleges etc. in the sixties & early seventies & that is the age group in the average folk club in our area (N.E. England)
Thanks everyone for sharing your views!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Teacher Pet
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 01:11 PM

Scrump - not a 'dig' at you, just an observation - it may only apply to my (limited) area.
(Altho as an engineer, I am heavily involved in training employees in certain procedures & have run I.T. classes so maybe I am 'one of them'.
TP

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: bubblyrat
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:12 PM

I have just remembered a colleague of mine,from my time in the aircraft-carrier HMS EAGLE in the 1960s. He was an Engine Room Artificer, and a fine banjo-player ( he had a Vega 'white lady', I recall ).Anyway, his ambition was to leave the Navy, ( What is it about ERA s that make them want to leave,-like ERA Tawney,C. ??) and become a teacher !! I often think of him, & hope that he lived his dream---He came from Suffolk, & his name was Pete Wimpenny.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:00 PM

"Folk" is about history. It's a part of the education of the public as to the origins of their own heritage as a country. History tells us the facts about the times, but the songs tell how the people felt about them.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:21 AM

I was a teacher.

I can only say in my defence that I was the worst teacher imaginable - I don't think I ever taught anybody anything.

Whereas, as a musician/songwriter - my career has been been one dizzying tale of success after another - climaxing in me writing the 38th most popular football song in the history of Germany.

it makes me wonder what heights some of these other teachers and musicians have risen to.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:35 AM

I have not said ALL folkies are teachers nor ALL teachers are folkies. Just 'in my experience' that teaching is predominant above other jobs/trades/professions.

Teacher's Pet: I didn't claim that you did say that. I simply quoted your own words

My point is (in the UK) most 'folkies' are involved in teaching

and asked: "Is there any evidence for this statement? I know more folkies who are not involved in teaching, than those that are. Perhaps my experience doesn't reflect the national picture, though?"

Thanks you for your response, but please don't attribute things to me that I never said.

It seems you are basing this conclusion on your own experience and that of others you quote above - I am simply saying that my experience is different. That's not saying you are wrong, just that it doesn't reflect my experience.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:07 AM

I'm not sure I was involved in teaching, even when I was a teacher. It was more sort of .....crowd control.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,Teachers Pet
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 11:41 AM

Ditto Scrump!

The whole thread was based on my quote - 'any folk gathering (UK) I have attended' so I thought it obvious I was basing my opinion on my experience.

In my post to you I again quote - 'my experience which is all I can give an opinion on, (yours may be different)'.

Nowhere did I try to attribute anything to you but if you read it that way I apologise.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 12:20 PM

Things I've Learned....

    I've learned that I like my teacher because she cries when we sing "Silent Night".......Age 6

    I've learned that our dog doesn't want to eat my broccoli either. Age 7

    I've learned that when I wave to people in the country, they stop what they are doing and wave back. Age 9

    I've learned that just when I get my room the way I like it, Mom makes me clean it up again. Age 12

    I've learned that if you want to cheer yourself up, you should try cheering someone else up. Age 14

    I've learned that although it's hard to admit it, I'm secretly glad my parents are strict with me. Age 15

    I've learned that silent company is often more healing than words of advice. Age 24

    I've learned that brushing my child's hair is one of life's great pleasures. Age 26

    I've learned that wherever I go, the world's worst drivers have followed me there. Age 29

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 12:20 PM

I've learned that if someone says something unkind about me, I must live so that no one will believe it. Age 39

    I've learned that there are people who love you dearly but just don't know how to show it. Age 42

    I've learned that you can make some one's day by simply sending them a little note. Age 44

    I've learned that the greater a person's sense of guilt, the greater his or her need to cast blame on others. Age 46

    I've learned that children and grandparents are natural allies. Age 47

    I've learned that no matter what happens, or how bad it seems today, life does go on, and it will be better tomorrow. Age 48

    I've learned that singing "Amazing Grace" can lift my spirits for hours. Age 49

    I've learned that motel mattresses are better on the side away from the phone. Age 50

    I've learned that you can tell a lot about a man by the way he handles these three things: a rainy day, lost luggage, and tangled Christmas tree lights. Age 52

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 12:21 PM

I've learned that keeping a vegetable garden is worth a medicine cabinet full of pills. Age 52

    I've learned that regardless of your relationship with your parents, you miss them terribly after they die. Age 53

    I've learned that making a living is not the same thing as making a life. Age 58

    I've learned that if you want to do something positive for your children, work to improve your marriage. Age 61

    I've learned that life sometimes gives you a second chance. Age 62

    I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catchers mitt on both hands. You need to be able to throw something back. Age 64

    I've learned that if you pursue happiness, it will elude you. But if you focus on your family, the needs of others, your work, meeting new people and doing the very best you can, happiness will find you. Age 65

    I've learned that whenever I decide something with kindness, I usually make the right decision. Age 66

    I've learned that everyone can use a prayer. Age 72

    I've learned that it pays to believe in miracles. And to tell the truth, I've seen several. Age 75

    I've learned that even when I have pains, I don't have to be one. Age 82

    I've learned that every day you should reach out and touch someone. People love that human touch - holding hands, a warm hug or just a friendly pat on the back. Age 85

    I've learned that I still have a lot to learn. Age 92

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM

That Peace has been doing some learning - can't wait to see what he learns at Age 93!

(Seriously though - good stuff, Peace).

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 12:33 PM

Thanks, memyself. It was first sent to me by Georgiansilver about a year ago. He gets his hands on some beautiful stuff and is more than willing to spread the word. I had to go locate the site. There are s'more like it out there.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 03:31 PM

He's a ggod guy to have on your side when the going gets tough, is old GS.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 03:33 PM

Ain't THAT the truth. Talk about a guy with a beautiful heart. Chances are yer talking about him or someone just like him.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 06:38 AM

No problem Teachers Pet - glad we can remain amicable :-)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 06:40 AM

Hey, Peace - what happened between age 85 and 92? Were you idling then? :-)

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 07:04 AM

Let's face it, there's only so much out there to learn. By age 85, he had uncovered everything of general interest; since then he's been nosing around for the obscure, forgotten arcana; you can't expect him to keep producing knowledge at the same rate ... And what he does produce will probably be of interest only to the true enthusiast.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 11:13 AM

Peanut butter sticks to the roof of the mouth.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 11:19 AM

Well! There's just no slowing this guy down! I was thinking we'd have to wait at least till age 95 or so - course, maybe he is 95 ...

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 11:23 AM

Listen up, pal, I don't look a day over 123.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Joybell
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 07:15 PM

Rowan we must have met at Nariel too!

Here in Aus. I've always noticed the large numbers of teachers among the "Folkies" -- and also a fairly large number of people connected with the medical profession. During the 60s and 70s in Melbourne several hospitals had "folk music clubs".
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:07 PM

When I camp for a while in one place I take my 'cooking toolbox' with enough cutlery to cope with about a dozen and some basic gear; on another thread I've mentioned my preferences for 'sharp' knives to be sharp and the ones in the box are wrapped in a teatowel to keep them that way. Of course, I take this to Nariel.

Two or three years ago I was sitting reading when I was asked for something from my box, which was on the ground beside my chair. Without looking I just reached down into the box for it. Someone had left the chopper unguarded with its blade up and I took a deep cut just distal to the middle joint of the middle finger of my left hand.

"Bother!" I said, when I noticed it. I clamped the cut shut (with my other hand) before it started bleeding and asked the group around me for a first aid kit. In that group were;
two theatre nurses from Adelaide,
a hospital social worker from Canberra,
a volunteer rural ambulance officer from Marysville,
sundry first aiders from all over the place, and
me, from New England.

Mine was the only equipped first aid kit available, although Dave had the neat surgical tape that did the trick.

It was the paddlepop splint that made playing the concer a bit tricky but we managed OK.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Muttley
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 02:59 AM

Mrs Lemon: was that observation about Aspies wanting to be the centre of attention? If so - you are WAAAYYYY off track. The one place we DON'T want to be is in the middle of things because we stand out so much more. We generally prefer single-minded activities on the fringes.

Jess A: I have already checked that thread but couldn't find chords - found them somewhere else on the 'net eventually - but thanks anyway

Penny S: Correct - they ARE skilled at that, but their Aspergers has to 'lean' in that direction. I know several who can't add the same column of figures three times and come up with the same answer twice - but they are BRILLIANT writers. I know others (including myself) who are computer morons - but excel at other things. If you are trying to stir up Aspies to get excited about your programs - forget it, unless their interests / obsessions lie in that direction you just won't engage them. Try hooking into their own personal obsession and linking THAT with whatever you are doing in the classroom.

"It's not gold stars now, by the way, it's stickers and stamps. smiley faces, trite slogans...."

Absolutely - and the kids see through it as well.

Muttley

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:32 AM

100 - got to get up earlier, Leadfingers!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 05:14 PM

They don't all see through it(the sticker business), though there are some who turn them down. And I turn out my own for special purposes. "I'm a mathematician", for instance, for volunteering thoughts past the obvious in "numeracy".

Penny

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Joybell
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 05:54 PM

Ah! Dave!! A good friend of ours too, Rowan. He calls in on us at least once a year. I'm drinking his wonderful coffee at this very moment.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Muttley
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 07:23 AM

Hullo Joybell - thanks for the 'bears'! (Waltzing with!)

Muttley

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Lord Soken
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 06:57 PM

As a newcomer to Mudcat I was interested in the question that resulted in this long list of threads. For my sins I associate with folkies all the time. It's the best way. Our crowd is made up of teachers, social workers, charity workers and a JP. After a session of singing and dancing we need the expert services of all of tehm to get back on track.

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 08:53 PM

Apparently our resident librarians are too busy posting to other threads to post on this one. But I bet that a disproportionate percentage of librarians are hard-core folkies.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 09:01 PM

Good though, Charlie.

I recall once looking for information on "Sir James the Rose" (a song by Steeleye Span). The library had over 5 million books in the collection, and one of the librarians was quick to take me by the arm and guide me to the relevant section. He knew the folk/history section very well, and he was insistent that I come get him if I was stymied in my pursuit. Turns out he was an avid 'folkie'. (But, for instance is not proof and one robin doth not a Spring make). I'd guess that if your premise is true, it might be because there is so much folk available, music that has history. And whether one likes folk or not, it seems evident to me anyway that the lyrics sure beat the snot outta most other kinds of music lyrics for meaning and purpose. IMO, of course.

Subject: RE: Chatting up Toni Arthur!
From: GUEST,Dave Arthur
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:39 AM

I just happened to be idly reading through various Mudcat threads when I found a couple of notes on Toni and myself under the Why Does Folk Attract So many Teachers thread, and was interested to see that Scrump had chatted her up 'behind my back' over thirty years ago, along, I might add, with several other 60s/70s folkies. I don't know if Toni has seen this thread but I'm sure she'd be flattered to be favourably remembered by Scrump. I well remember the time that she did a clog-dance on a pub table in a Lancashire folk club in the late 60s wearing a mini skirt and received three encores (although I suspect it was my melodeon playing they really wanted to hear :)) And few duos were more popular than us when it came to performing in Wormwood Scrubs and Maidstone prisons, during the same fashion period. They were innocent fun days and life in the UK was much more pleasant than of late. I now spend more on petrol getting to one Yorkshire gig from Kent than Toni and I earned for a week's Northern tour in the 60s/70s. Aah! Nostalgia, who said it's not what it was?

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:50 AM

Of course it was you melodeon playing mate, it was in Lancashire after all! ;o)
Nice to hear from you again, it's been a long time, I think I first saw you two at The Enterprise in Chalk Farm when it was run by Terry Gould.
As for chatting Toni up well; what can I say!
Giok

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 11:59 AM

I always thought one of the great things about folk was that no-one cared a damn WHAT you did for your day job!

Subject: RE: Why does 'folk' attract so many teachers
From: Muttley
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 06:05 PM

So, Peace - who WAS Sir James the Rose?

I looked several years ago and came up with a couple of possibilities - what did you find?

Muttley

(I love obscure history.)