What makes a person a good songwriter?

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,patstowe
Date: 21 Jul 08 - 08:27 PM

ask yourself "would i wan to listen to this?"

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

I have written "on demand" and for my own enjoyment for over 50 years. Most of what I write is for a limited audience - myself (and, possibly, a few intimate friends). I hear melodies in my head and can usually craft something to go with them in fairly short order. Yet, I don't consider myself a songwriter, simply because I never pursued it professionally or had any songs recorded (so far as I know).

Much of what I have written has been relatively topical and, therefore, has had a certain "shelf life." On the other hand, the songs I most admire are, more or less, timeless. I have enjoyed topical songs, but they are usually stale within a few years, if not sooner. For me, a song that resonates through generations is a thing of beauty and a joy forever. People who can accomplish that are my songwriting heroes.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 01:26 PM

Made worse by the fact that Rod sang the song looking as if he was squatting on a French toilet!

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:25 AM

He then took her back to his single-room basement
And put her cold corpse in a see-ment encasement.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:19 AM

I agree with previous comments about alcohol level being significant, but you don't need drugs, which semed to be compusory in the seventies.


Also agree with the post that says a good tune will sometimes compensate for crap lyrics - that old saying:-

"If you have nothing to say then sing it"

That famous Rod Stewart classic:-

"He took her up to his high rise a-part-ment
And there he tod her exactly what his heart meant"

They don't do them like that any more!

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 12:48 AM

Wish I knew, I'd write good songs then.

Writing in standard English helps, because then all English speakers can send you royalties! I like some Jim Croce songs, but I can't sing them. Double negatives, bad grammer all over them.

Singing songs that haven't been polished, that still have too many words in them, doesn't help.
Very subjective thread, this.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,taty:]
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 11:55 PM

I write songs myself all the time... and what you really do need is insperation

Any song can be good. You don't need those tricky words or catchy frases..
Simple does the trick.

Being you is the key..

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 01:11 AM

one man's bullshit is the next man's manure

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: goodbar
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:29 PM

a good songwriter is just one who lacks bullshit.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 09:04 PM

Coming at the question from the direction of writing (mostly) comic songs:-

Inspiration, inspiration, inspiration!

You have to observe something which is genuinely funny, and the rest is word juggling.

Serious songs now, well that's much more difficult. I always respond best when the composer has made an effort to avoid all the old cliche phrases. So that's what I try to do.

Do I succeed? You'ld have to ask someone else, as I don't feel qualified to judge.

I DO get requests tho', so maybe......

Don T.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:40 AM

it's possible for a songwriter to be too 'clever' in his/her use of words, or literary references, or whatever. These will appeal to some people, but if you are aiming for wider success, keeping it relatively simple is a good idea.

Tom Lehrer has a perfect example of this when introducing one of his songs with the story about the young necrophiliac who gets his dream job in a local mortuary. He completes the story, after a pretty weak audience response with 'the rest of you can look it up when you get home'... which got a bigger laugh.

As for the original question... experience, observation and an intimate relationship with language.

LTS

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,me!
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 03:58 AM

be a good songwriter has nothing to do with writing a good song. The melody can turn horrible lyrics into a great song. But without a great melody sometimes great words can have no meaning because the song just doesnt have the perfect mix of both.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:41 AM

Somebody famous, I can't recall who, said that the only inspirations for great art (of any genre) are Love and Death. (of course, they can inspire lousy art, too...)

I would add Drink to that.

And I'll drink to that! :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Vixen
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 08:40 AM

Somebody famous, I can't recall who, said that the only inspirations for great art (of any genre) are Love and Death. (of course, they can inspire lousy art, too...)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 12:29 AM

A Good and Honest thought, Marion.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 04:58 AM

There is also a question as to whether one good song constitutes a good songwriter.

Interesting question, but I would say 'yes'. Even if a songwriter only ever wrote one song, and that song is generally agreed to be 'good', that makes that person a good songwriter in my view.

I suppose if they wrote another 1,000 crap songs it makes it seem like on average they are a crap songwriter, but in my view the one good song is enough to outweigh all the crap ones, since the latter will be ignored anyway.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Marion
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:34 PM

A fascination with death.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:27 PM

a magic pen

sal

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: retrancer
Date: 27 Feb 07 - 08:53 PM

Well, for me, sometimes the best things i do, which may or may not meet anyone's test, come from thinking through a concept, an emotion, a feeling, studying it from a variety of perpectives, playing with metahpors for it, slowly distilling it down, mapping out rhymes, counting meter. it can come from anywhere - someone on a chat and I were joking and made a reference to having a bottle in the car and I jotted down the following to be titled "Babe I Got A Bottle in the Car" as a country tune:

Babe I got a bottle in the car - song lyrics:

I dont know why I stopped into this bar
The road outside looks long and kinda hard
My hotel room is really not that far
and babe I got a bottle in the car

Babe I got a bottle in the car
I've seen a million miles of gravel and tar
All I own is this old steel guitar
but babe I got a bottle in the car


__________

so its undeveloped, but a concept, needs refining, a completed story line, some more metaphors, a place, maybe a buzzing neon sign and a cockroach, but for me this is the be=ginning of the process - it reminded me of when we all took our own bottles to drink outside because we could not afford to get drunk inside the bar at bar prices - so you arrive smashed and oreder one, go to the car, drink two, go back in, order one LOL.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:20 PM

That pesky enter key got in the way.   A friend mentioned visiting Bob Franke's site.   He mentioned what he had been reading lately. What goes into a writer is certainly going to have an effect on what comes out of the writer.   The same techniques may not work for everyone, but one who is fed a hearty meal will be stronger than who dines on sugar or salt alone. To me, the mark of a good song is whether I want to hear it again...and again. Some songs I try to find recorded by different artists.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:14 PM

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:26 PM

A good song writer may be a matter of opinion but I think an open mind in terms of being willing to welcome inspiration from all sorts of experience both musical, imaginary and personally real. There is also a question as to whether one good song constitutes a good songwriter. I think an ability to write in a number of styles , perhaps unaccompanied and with different instruments, may be quite important to an overall assesment of a songwriters talent. Overall I think the songwriters art is typified by the ability to express complex stories, ideas or emotions in a very concise fashion.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:17 AM

mg, I agree it's possible for a songwriter to be too 'clever' in his/her use of words, or literary references, or whatever. These will appeal to some people, but if you are aiming for wider success, keeping it relatively simple is a good idea.

It doesn't mean such songs (using longer words, etc.) aren't good, though - just that they have a narrower appeal.

I've noticed a few references to writing songs 'with' or 'on' an instrument. It should be pointed out it's not necessary to use any instrument at all, when composing a melody. At least one well-known and highly-regarded songwriter deliberately avoids using an instrument, as this can constrain the melody by directing it down certain 'channels' which would otherwise not be the case. If it's helpful to you, then use an instrument, but be aware of the pitfalls.

(Speaking as a not very good songwriter myself!)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,ian
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:00 PM

Well what have we here,Villan writing a set of lyrics and someone who thinks Elton wrote those wonderful words.
I guess as long as it works for you and you are not looking for the next big hit,who cares.If you want it to appeal to others,then a little more thought goes into it.If you want to just write or create,then go right ahead and do it.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM

study ewan maccoll.
he was possibly a good songwriter because of his training as a play wright,does anyone remember any of his plays.
FrankHamilton has failed to mention Ray davis [kinks].Harry chapin Born Today

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:09 PM

On measure for me is would I want to sing it if I didn't write it? Does it transcend the writer? Does it "have legs"?

Good songs have interesting tunes (sometimes simple but they carry story well), imagery that's fresh, specificity in subject matter helps, a point-of-view that's consistent with the character that's singing or being sung about, well-constructed with scancion (sp?) from stanza to stanza, a subject that is universal in its appeal, one that lasts over time because it has the elements of good writing, in some cases accessible and in some cases not because it requires time for people to catch up to it, sometimes a product of careful editing, a timeliness about it that makes it relevant, is it utile (in a show or express and idea that people want to hear)....other than those qualities much is about subjective opinion.

As to the marriage of words and music by one composer/author that's not as prevalent as it was at one time. There were more Cole Porters in the earlier days

Some of the best songwriting came from the early Renaissance period in Europe (Dowland, Campion etc.), the American Broadway musicals of the 30's through early 70's (so many wrote great songs as a team or as individual composer/lyricists and the "craft" writers from Tin Pan Alley and the movies. The Pop Sixties were interesting too with Joannie Mitchell, Paul Simon, Burt Bachrach and Hal David, some of the Motown writers, Jim Webb, Dylan, Prine, and Christopherson. Some of it came from jazz with Duke Ellington and his protege Billy Strayhorn in the Forties. The Chanson of Jacques Brel and contemporaries were good. Can we include Pete Seeger also? Woody Guthrie for sure.

How do you feel about Steve Earle, John Gorka, Don McClean? I think they qualify.

The areas mentioned above make all of these writers exemplary.

The reason why I bring this up is that if you want to be a good songwriter, you have to do your homework and study the "masters".

Then define what you mean as a "good" songwriter.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:41 PM

You can write a fine melody with a guitar, but you must work with single notes, not just the chords--

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:02 PM

As the great Elton John said...sorry Sir Elton....
I sat on the roof, and kicked off the moss,
Well a few of the verses,well they got me quite cross.
But the sun's been quite kind, while I wrote this song,
It's for people like you, who, keep it turned on.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:55 PM

I don't know if I agree about needing a good vocabulary. I think that often that gets in the way and people try to cram too many words in or show that they know big words...I think, in terms of folk-sounding songs, that the smaller, simple everyday words are probably the best. Why weep ye by the tide lady why weep ye by the tide...I'll wed thee to my youngest son and ye shall be his bride.

Only one word had two syllables. mg

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,MrMoose
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:08 PM

What makes a good songwriter ?

   Many times, the singer...

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Alec
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:18 AM

Why not,indeed Scrump.:0)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:16 AM

Why not both Alec :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Alec
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:05 AM

Not "about" Scrump,but rather "while".

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:59 AM

On the upside Guitars are usually cheaper & invariably more portable.
However for my money the absolute clincher for the Piano is that it is much,much easier to stand a pint on one.:0)

So it seems guitars are better for writing songs about travelling; whereas pianos are better for composing songs about drinking.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:41 AM

That was me.

Art ;-)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:37 AM

Having a belly button that protrudes makes for easier gazing and/or contemplation.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Vixen
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:26 AM

For a lyricist--a diverse vocabulary, an ear for rhythm and rhyme, an associative mind, a vivid imagination, and a love of resolving puzzles.

For a composer--12 notes, a smattering of sharps, flats, naturals and accidentals, an infinite arrangement and intuitive understanding of chord structures, an ear for rhythm, an associative mind, a vivid imagination, and a love of resolving puzzles.

For both--some attributes described by some other writers of note:
As Jerry Rasmussen noted above, a keen eye for observation is essential.
Nathaniel Hawthorne said you need "ice in the blood"
Edgar Allan Poe said an effective work needs "continuity of effort, unity of effect"
Muriel Rukeyser advised "keep your word hoard dry"
Alexander Pope said "the sound must seem an echo of the sense"
Robert Frost said you need the ability to make the "commonplace unusual and the unusual, commonplace"

I agree that just before waking and just after falling asleep are excellent times to harvest lyrics and melodies from the subconscious. Sometimes they're fully formed and just need tweaking, but more often they come as fragments and shards that (as T.S.Eliot said) slip and slide and decay with imprecision. (I think that's from Ash Wednesday).
Consequently, they need lots of labor and time.

Somebody else said that writing is easy--just sit down and open a vein.

It is not necessary, in my opinion, for *good* songwriters to have any performance persona at all. If they do, well and good. If not, it doesn't matter--they won't be performing the song a hundred years later. The song is the thing that must transcend time, place, and performer.

Just my $0.02, fwiw...

V

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM

And the less said about songs written on a bodhran, the better

:D

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Alec
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 09:17 AM

Now you point it out that might have something to do with it,Scrump.
On the upside Guitars are usually cheaper & invariably more portable.
However for my money the absolute clincher for the Piano is that it is much,much easier to stand a pint on one.:0)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:58 AM

A song written on a Piano always seems to have a richer,fuller melodic line than one written on Guitar

Ah, that's because a guitar only has 6 strings and a piano has 88 keys. No contest :-)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:31 PM

There's a thread on the Mudcat which speaks of songwriting,
I hope to learn how to right songs.
So that I can reach out to the whole world at large,
And entreat them to right all the wrongs.
I will point out the weaknesses, those that I know,
To the leaders and followers all.
'Til my songs bring such peace to all lands in the world,
And there's trouble and strife...none at all.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 06:01 PM

Really nice Jerry

That reminds me of a lady who I see each time I visit my mother. She is in the same boat as that lady.

What is interesting, is last year when my father passed away, I asked my mother if she would like a night of music at the home in remembrance of my father. She said yes. I got a skiffle band to go in, because I only wanted happy music.

Some of the people there could hardly move or speak, but we gave them all a table mat and they held them and tapped the tables to the rhythm. One lady who looked totally vacant and didn't move all night except for mouthing the songs. Afterwards I went up to her and asked her if she enjoyed it, and she looked at me and mouthed "yes thankyou"

Les

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 05:32 PM

That's a wonderful song, The Villan.

Another observation of a woman in a nursing home who was strapped into her wheelchair, completely paralyzed except for one finger that she tapped in rhythm while I sang:

   "She remembers the sweet smell of freshly-baked apples
   That came from the wood-burning stove
   And the songs that her mother would sing to herself
   And the laughter when father came home
   And somewhere inside her there's still that young girl
   With a tortoise-shell comb in her hair
   And sometimes the memories come back with a song
   As surely as if she were there"

Jerry

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:33 PM

If I was a songwriter, I would write about what I see in the nursing home where my mother is.

It is a good home, but you look at them and they all think you are there son, or husband or Father.

There look of, I'm just waiting to cross the line.

My mother gets very jealous when I talk to the other inmates, but they all need someone.

Jerry
Your comments about opening your eyes to what you see reminds me of a Clifford T Ward song.

SINGING A SONG OF SADNESS . . .
'Clifford T Ward was driving through his home town of Kidderminster, Worcs, when he spotted a pretty, young housewife dragging her two small children to a waiting car.

"She was obviously taking them to school and was in a great rush," he says. "She had her hair in curlers as she bundled her kids into a rusty Anglia and sped off".

No More Rock 'n' Roll   

She gets up every morning at six o'clock
Feeds the baby, makes the breakfast,
gets the kids off to school
And her husband's always late for work
No time to tell her she's still beautiful.
Is this the dream she used to dream?
It's not the way it used to seem
She's a housewife and her work's cut out
No more dancin', no more romance and
No more Rock 'n' Roll.

Every day seems much the same to her
Little time to put her feet up or to answer the door
But she's learnt how to cope and be thankful for her lot
And she handles it with care as her mother did before.
By all accounts she has arrived
To feel her age at twenty five
She's a housewife and her work's cut out
No more dancin', no more romance and
No more Rock 'n' Roll.

Sometimes she lets herself get carried away
Dreams of a love affair - to brighten up her day.

She's a housewife and her life's cut out
No more dancin', no more romance and
No more Rock 'n' Roll.

She's a housewife and her life's cut out
No more dancin', no more romance and
No more Rock 'n' Roll.


"There she was, completely tied to her chores with all her thoughts on her family and no time for parties and pop music. Somehow the incident struck me as rather sad and I was inspired to write her a song."

Which is how his new single "No More Rock 'n' Roll" was born, followed by an album of the same name.'

(1975)

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:54 PM

So true, Jerry; if we could only see them, sometimes...

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:47 PM

Be observant.

One day, while I was waiting for someone in the Woman's department of Lord & Taylor's (an upscale department store) I stood there watching the women who were casually browsing through racks of clothes. Because it was the middle of a work day, the customers were mostly retired women. Many of them had their gray or white hair tinted blue or lavender. They were in no hurry to get anywhere.
There were no husbands in sight.

And the lines of a song came, unbidden:

   "The lavender ladies are leisurely grazing
    In Ladies Wear, Luggage and Fine Lingerie"

It didn't take much to finish the four lines:

   "With hours to kill ,and no one to kill them with
    The loves of their lives have all passed away"

The stories are right in front of you.

Jerry

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Hawker
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:41 PM

I know I'll get shot for this........................................



but I write mine on bits of paper!









I'll get me coat!
;0)
Lucy

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Alec
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 02:12 PM

A song written on a Piano always seems to have a richer,fuller melodic line than one written on Guitar.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Alec
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:32 PM

"There came a man from Budapest,there never was a ruder pest"
Lerner & Lowe.

Subject: RE: What makes a person a good songwriter?
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 12:26 PM

Sometimes a 'contrived' rhyme makes a song memorable. Can't just remember any right now...

Hee hee! ;o)