Songleading Vs. Performing

Subject: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 11:31 AM

Have experience with both?

What are the differences?

How do you know when you've done a good job songleading?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 11:48 AM

THE PREVIOUS POST IS THE DUPLICATE, NOT THIS ONE.

-----------

OK I'll start.

Songleading:
Screw the fancy riffs, the carefully crafted musicianship! Bang out a strong rhythm and sing your heart out!

How do you know?
More than just, "They sing along." Spontaneous clapping breaks out.

Yeah, I'm reviewing last week's field recording. Nothing like hearing normally well-behaved folks bust out in a HECK of a good time-- in church of all places!

~S~

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 12:07 PM

How do you know when you've done a good job songleading?

Surely when people sing and it sounds good.

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 12:57 PM

Other differences....

-----

Songleading: I'm relaxed, throat open; I can sing through unpretty vocal problems and not care if I sound right, but just SING.

Performing: I had better be in my best range, in a song that flatters my technically quirky and somewhat unreliable voice.

-----

Songleading: I am actually singing along just as much as are the people I am leading. I am singing along with them, listening to and responding to them. I am also, I realized one day, singing along with the version stored in my head that I heard when I first learned the song. But although I am accepting a leadership role, and aware of what that will entail, I am singing along just as much as are the people around me or in front of me. It's just that I happen to be the one with the mic, or the hand gestures that cue them for their parts, or the big posterboard with the chorus hastily scribbled for them to read.

Performing: I really care how I come across, and I don't really WANT anyone else to sing along, because I am going to offer a particular phrasing that matters to me, or a particular pronunciation that affects meaning, or I need to be in MY best key that others will have some trouble with. If they want to sing it my way, that's OK-- harmony, etc. are welcome.

-----

Songleading: I am transmitting something, passing it along, aiming for an experience for the PEOPLE that has THE GROUP PRESENT's stamp on it.

Performing: I am showcasing something, aiming for a quality version that has MY stamp on it.

-----

Songleading: I am willing to make a fool of myself in the efort, do another song even if half-prepped, and come back again another time.

Performing: I can be easily embarrassed, skip half the verses to end it quicker, sing only the one piece, and not rush back to do it again!

-----

Songleading: I learn best from other songleaders, like Pete Seeger. I know that if Pete were present, he'd happily sing along when I lead, and lead the next verse or song himself, most likely. I'm paying attention to the effect their leadership brings to the singing-along, and what they have done to result in that effect.

Performing: I learn best from other professional singers, and I am paying attention to their stagecraft as well as their vocal technique.

-----

Songleaading: I think I can do it when called upon to do it. I am still learning, but I think I can pull it off somedamnway or other, no matter the prevailing conditions of the moment.

Performing: I don't thnk I will ever feel like I can "just do it."

----

YMMV. Tell me!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: stallion
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:48 PM

mmmmmmm until very recently I would have said that song leading was setting a foundation for everyone else "hang" their voices on, last week I found out that the "performance" was just as important. Normally at the Friday night session we would trot out the songs, get big chorus end of...bit thin on the ground last week so I put in a couple of "performances", same old songs, went a storm with the regulars. Now the explanation is up for discussion, might it be that they felt part of a "performance" rather than just singing? Or maybe the dozen or so joining in appreciated the extra effort? I really don't know except that it made a difference.

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:50 PM

stallion,

If you are talking about club singing, it's probably a very different experience from mine. Can you say more?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:57 PM

Simple: songleading, I can do and get great joy from. Performing, I couldn't do if you paid me, wouldn't have any fun of it, amn't good enough at anything for it, but I'm glad to have have friends who can, do and are.

Two very different skills: many here are blessed with BOTH!

Dani

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:38 PM

Your experience(s) might be different but I've always regarded singing, when not actuallyandformally performing, as equivalent to jamming or playing in a session. Sure, you might be the most confident and thus be "leading" but ...

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 10:56 PM

Nice thread, Susan. Songleading is best accomplished through attitude. I have run workshops on the subject and I have come up with a few general principles. To, effectively, lead singing, one must become a part of the group, willing to surpress his need for applause and attention, willing to pitch the song in a key that the others can reach, willing to, openly, encourage participation, willing to sing those "tired old chestnuts" that everyone knows, willing to slowly and carefully teach the words, repeating them as often as needed.
Songleading means skipping those instrumental breaks that you have been working on so long. Songleading means encouraging blending and harmony. Songleading means making them the stars. Successfull songleading means that no one will notice your great accompaniment. They will, just, notice themselves and the fun they are having. They will applaud, but they are, really, clapping for themselves and that's just swell.
I think that songleading is my favorite way of performing. It's not for everyone, but it suits me fine.

                         Mike

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:44 AM

(to correct previous post)

Thanks, Mike.

I've always taken the view, and told the folks who came to sing with us, that whoever is there on any given day, is IN THE BAND. The "audience" isn't an audience-- they're in the band as much as we are.

One thing that burns me up, that I never realized how it bothers me, is that people seem to think we're "only" songleading because we are not "ready" or "confident enough" to perform.... that whatever needs to improve, needs to be done for the sake of a "better performance."

We don't want to perform! Not interested at all! All we want to do is spark off singalongs! We have no interest in being showcased, etc.-- it's not what we DO! Other people want to do that-- that's their mission, that's great, and if their sets include a singalong segment, that's great, we need more of that these days. But-- that isn't what we do.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 09:54 AM

I'm thinking that UK club singing would be a different experience (different, not less than) because I would think that at club sings, the people present probably are taking turns leading a song, and all share an understanding of how it will go. Singalongs are becoming so rare in US culture that the "audience" doesn't have much experience with what will occur, and as individuals most would NEVER think of leading a song, themselves.... which would make for a very different community experience.

It would be community-building, perhaps, more than community-reflective. "We're all going to go sing tonight" is a different anticipation from "They are going to lead us to sing tonight."

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: LilyFestre
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 03:43 PM

OMG...music for the sake of enjoyment?   

LQF

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:27 PM

May I say that I think the difference is one of worry. Worry is not the same as caring. Caring is wanting to perform for your audience to the best of your ability. Worry is being frightened that you won't. Try to worry less and care more.

I'm sure you care about song leading but don't worry about it. That makes you a good song leader. Apply this to performing and all the qualities of song leading will come out in your performance.

The difference is thinner than cigarette paper. If you are a good song leader then I know you can be a good performer. (a little simplistic maybe but essentially true.)

Dave Wynn (A.K.A. Spot the Dog)

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:35 PM

Susan, I don't know if they have changed much over the last thirty years but, when I played at English and Scottish folk clubs, the audience needed no encouragement to sing along and rather well, I might add. Irish audiences were more rowdy, as a rule, attentive but not allowing the music to interfere with their socializing.
Back in the day, no folk concert lacked a load of singalongs. No one attended a Pete Seeger concert, expecting to just sit in a seat and listen. The same for most other folk performers. That was my school, 1950's folk concerts, and it is why I still perform with a majority of singalongs.
I think that today's dearth of song leaders is because of the desire to express one's self, the need to do so through original writing, the disdain for the familiar.
Outside of that, how you doin', Susan?

                        Mike

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:10 PM

I'm doin' fine, Mike, mostly. A coupla bruises, a coupla places where the skin's gotten a little thicker. Hope you're doing well.

Spot-- I just don't care to "perform." I prefer to stick with the passion, thanks.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 10:41 PM

How do you know when you've done a good job

DUHHHH! People sing? They have fun? You have fun?

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: GUEST,wooden spoon
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:26 AM

Songleading? Performing? Singers have 'performance' built into them, particularly those who do so unaccompanied. This is evidenced all too often by calls for 'hush' by the high priest/ess of the gathering, dagger looks if one dares to join in (let alone add suitable accompaniment), and applause after each 'performance', warranted or not.

Give me a good Session anytime, with its minimalist approach to applause and such like: the players are more likely at the end of a set to simply reach for their pints and resume their chat. At most, a quiet "hmmm .... nice tune" will suffice.

I'll get my coat!
:-)

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: Gulliver
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:38 PM

I never noticed this discrepancy before. We don't have folk-clubs in Ireland (or hardly any), but lots of sessions, and in singing sessions, IMHO, "performers" certainly make for good sessions. Fortunately we seem to be blessed with a lot of "performers" in Dublin, although many would disagree and prefer a more "artistic" approach to making music.

I think both can co-exist, but personally I feel sessions should be entertaining and fun, and that makes them successful.

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 05:16 PM

Mike Miller,

I think that something we're going to do tonight is related to something you wrote upthread, about how to go about teaching people the words. We use wordbooks in our setting, but sometimes there is a problem for some folks to learn a tune, especially if it is in a tonality not usual to them.

In this case, a piece we found as black gospel is JUST the right text for the evening, but the tune will not come easily to some of these nothern-PA rural folk. They have, in the past, successfully "gotten" spirituals which I have come out, among them, to lead in an almost lined-out fashion of transmitting a call/response type spiritual. So tonight Hardi and I are going to do, with them, what we did at home this afternoon-- teach the song (tune) by tossing the lines back and forth echo-style, letting the people know that their part is the part Hardi will sing back to me. The song is not a spiritual, but is going to be done in that lament-style and in that type of tonality.

I think this will represent a good way of handling a number of other songs that don't always seem instantly-singable in our church setting.

Thanks for the tip!

Also, our band is having a sort of anniversary this summer, and planning a Friday-evening singing (and ice-cream-guzzling) in celebration. It would sure be great if you were around here then; it looks to be mid-July. We can put you up overnight, too.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

(to correct and replace the post of 10:28 AM)

=======================================


Well, here's what we did and how it went.

We did end up arranging the song during the late afternoon, and rehearsed it as if we were going to present it in our usual "go for it" fashion. As the evening approached, though, and the time for that song came nearer, I decided we would go ahead and teach it first as I had planned. As I idly strummed a few of the chords to be sure I'd open on the right pitch, I described our teaching-plan briefly. I indicated that Hardi and I'd had some fun with it in the afternoon and that we wanted to try it the same way with the people, and that Hardi would sing each line back to me and that the people were to join him in doing that. Before anyone could get too nervous, we swung right into it, unacompanied.

The folks got the approach right off, and I'm listening to the field recording as I type-- they get stronger and more into the tune as it goes along, and I can hear my spontaneous affirmations and encouragements sprinkled in.

We went through it twice in that lined-out fashion, then took it up with accompaniment; after a line where the people adjust to singing it a tempo, it really picks up.

How do you know you've done a good job? When some of the usually-serious people rush up to tell you they liked doing it that way, and you can hear the rest of the people whistling that "elusive" tune just as you taught it, as they're putting on their coats.

[warm fuzzy feeling inside]

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: Janie
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 10:59 AM

Some one up above referred to pitching in a key most people can What are the keys that most people find within their range?

I have a low voice, and can almost never comfortably sing in the key(s) hymns are usually played in church. I usually find myself singing an octave below, and then that is just a little too low for comfort. When we were doing song circles, I also noticed that I mostly pitched songs too low for others to comfortably sing.

I may never be able to be much of a song leader for this reason. It also just occurs to me that one reason I much prefer 'sing arounds' to 'sing alongs' is for the same reason. I can't 'sing along in the keys most often used, and no one else can comfortably sing along with me.

Janie

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: Bee
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 11:27 AM

As a teen, I was the church soprano soloist, and I had trouble with reaching the key every organist but one used for the service hymns. The rest of the poor congregation screeched or grumbled along an octave higher or lower, as best they could. Attended while at home last summer, and things have not changed much.

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 11:35 AM

Janie, there's no reason you can't lead a song in singalong style-- as long as the material is easily harmonized and as long as you let people know you welcome harmony. Experienced harmonizers can use that harmony to move to their more comfortable range and still be in your key. (That doesn't work for me-- where I songlead most is in church or similar settings where people want to sing the melody, and nothing but.)

Also, I would bet that it isn't so that "no one" can sing with you-- some of the men and some of the women will be able to, in your octave or in an octave higher or lower. Or some of them may be able to join you on either the chorus or the verse-- a lot of songs actually span two ranges. In fact, on some of our songs, I take some of the lines and Greg takes some of them-- we both are singing ALL of them, but not all at full voice. WE hear it as kind of not-the-best, when we're actually doing it-- but when we listen back on the recording, it actually sounds fine. We've used harmony the same way-- the Louvin brothers's records gave us the tip that it is OK for the singers to swap who is on melody and who is on harmony. So maybe a partner would be fun to work with. It IS nice having a second range in your pocket to go to! :~)

When I started I had a voice much higher than most people found comfortable in singing with, in unison. But there were ministries we wanted to pursue, so I went to keys not the best for my voice. As time went on, however, doing that taught me a lot of vocal tricks which, had I known them sooner, might have prevented some of the vocal damage in my voice now. You might try a single session or two with a voice teacher or vocal coach, if you can find one that will not try to develop you into the kind of voice they prefer and know how to work with.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 12:57 PM

I should have added-- been reflecting about this one all morning--

A well-known male vocal quartet was performing at our church one night when we hosted a community concert. We'd opened the building early for their soundcheck, made sure they got fed and had dressing space, etc., and sort of ran sound for them. During the soundcheck they also played around with some of the songs they'd be doing that evening, to come up with a few approaches for that day in order to accomodate individual vocal proclivities. You could tell that this was a normal part of their soundcheck practice, as they spoke a kind of shorthand with each other to very quickly settle some singing issues. I felt very lucky to have a chance to see and hear all this happening!

They also fooled around playfuly with some new material they were thinking about for the next year's tour. From each of them, I heard several different voices. Each of them had a couple of different ways they could get around the scale, depending on the rigors of the individual songs. I asked them, at one point, if each of them felt like they're singing most of the time in their best range... the answer, as they grinned back, was no, no, no, no, no, no, and NO. But they did, they assured me, really appreciate having a full schedule making enough money to live on while doing music fulltime, and they did appreciate being in a group where they had the collective skill and personalities to cooperate and pull it off night after night.

Though they weren't going to be songleading as part of their show, the tough schedule required by their concert appearances (as I learned in coming to know them a bit before the show) confirmed much of my own experience: when you're "out there" for the people, you don't always get to choose what key you will sing in, on any given day, according to your own best range or your most flattering key.

Just as I had found when I had a different weekly responsibility, there are OFTEN days when you just show up and do the job you've agreed to do. In that process-- just as these guys confirmed-- you learn a lot of ways of handling yourself when the worst days (or songs in the worst keys) come your way. You learn not only to suck it up and tough it out, but in a technical/vocal-skills sense, you also learn HOW to navigate around the song, the voice, and the throat you have on any given day. You learn when to tune down a half step and when to just get through a piece; you learn how to tell your partner, on the fly, what you need them to do about an expected challenge; you learn how to smile, smile, smile, and do what you agreed to do.

There comes a point when the song simply takes over, and out it comes. I've sung in ranges that I could never in a million years have said I could sing in. Sometimes it's cost me some voice (temporarily or permanently), but being able to DO IT in all kinds of crazy circumstances-- including vocal ones-- is what lends the credibility to say that you think that maybe you can do it.

The guys were very, VERY nice to make do with our tiny, meatball sound system that night; I don't think they had ever seen folding chairs used as speaker stands before. :~) For the next group we hosted, we dug up and recommended a local (professional) sound engineer with portable BIG system. But I learned as much from them, too.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 01:48 AM

Susan, I am sorry that I haven't replied before now. I spent the past two weeks in the hospital and Mudcat was not, I blush to say, the first thing on my mind. I have a few comments and suggestions for the teaching of harmony singing.
First, harmony is nice but blending is nicer. In the best of all possible ensembles, the voice should be that of the group, rather than the loudest, individual singer. Blending is, surprisingly, easy to achieve. It, just, takes listening. I tell my workshop participants to pretend that there is a microphone in the middle of the room and they should aim their voices at it. Then I have them listen, while they are singing, and, if they can hear their voice clearly, lower their volume and if they can't hear their voice, crank it up until they can. Even unison singing sounds magnificent when the voices are in concert and the most approval hungry singer will be assuaged by the glorious sound of the group. If/when we, ever, get together, I'll show you how easy this is to accomplish.
I will be doing workshops for the Philadelphia Folksong Society this spring. I will let you know where and when. I conduct harmony workshops for their Sping Thing and Fall Fling weekends.
I am sure that you are, or will be, a wonderful song leader. You have the right attitude and the right aptitude.
I suggest that you contact me directly at [e-mail]
We'll talk.

                         Mike

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: Sooz
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 02:29 AM

I've followed this thread with interest and I have to confess that I'm still not sure what "songleading" is or in which environment it takes place. Enlightenment please?

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:11 AM

Sooz,

Songleading is when people present want to sing, but are nervous about doing it or have no idea WHAT to sing. Songleader starts it off and sings strongly enough that they can follow. From there, whatever needs to happen usually does. It can happen at a sing, around a campfire, at worship, at a session, at a festival, as part of a concert, as part of any other event where a little group song would enhance what is happening. The spongleader is like a facilitator at a workshop, and hopefully has some idea where the group might like to go and an ability to help them get there.

An example might be, at a wake where there is a lot of feeling present and it needs an outlet, and someone starts a song everyone can take up. Another example might be a singaround where there's a songbook and one or more people lead out strongly enough to set the tune and tempo.


My own songleading takes place nowadays mostly in worship settings, and has also happened at town picnics, at the end of gatherings, or at breaktime at non-music workshops to perk 'em up a little bit.

I've been doing this for over 10 years-- the last 11 of them, weekly at worship.

Mike, I'll be in touch. Glad yer out!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:16 AM

PS, also there's a form of songleading we haven't really talked about here, that I have seen Mudcatter Burke do in turn with others at Sacred Harp singings-- in Sacred Harp, the sorpano, alto, tenor, and bass singers (maybe they call them something else) each sit in a section facing another section, making a 4-sided square. The person leading the song stands in the middle beating the time and setting the tempo. At the one I was at, the songs chosen were all songs the group knew well, so the leader didn't have to work too hard to put the tune across, and also the singers are using tunebooks with the special shape-note parts to follow. The practice as I understand it is that before the text is sung, there is a run-through singing the note-names at pitch.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: Sooz
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 11:20 AM

Ahaa - thanks Susan. The only place I can think of in the Uk where this happens is at Camping Club meetings where they have the standard song book and people take it in turns to choose one for everyone to sing. I haven't ever seen anyone "lead" the singing though, it relies on everyone joining in.

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 09:58 AM

... have the standard song book and people take it in turns to choose one for everyone to sing ....

Yes, we have those in the US too, but more often than not, even one of those has a strong singer leading it off. They may or not step up to the front to do it, but there's usually someone just a tad ahead of the beat giving a sense of where the pitches are moving.


We did another one last night in teaching mode-- a totally different tonality, textual structure, and source singing from the other time. It worked equally well, and we could really hear the people picking up the tune and tonality as it went along. This time one of us strummed very quietly during the teaching part. Another difference this time was that after a line-by-line approach, we went through it again 2 lines at a time. The people's ability to put it together in 2 lines told me that the 1-line run had been of some benefit. When we hit it at tempo with instruments, wow, they really got to the fun of the tune.

We arent planning on using this approach for ALL new pieces, but we're getting a sense now of which ones will be more a challenge to the folks, and will likely benefit from this approach.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 09:18 AM

Our songleading band has an opportunity next summer... at our diocesan convention which, among other diocesan biz, "shows off" a different, unusual-to-some musical feature each year. When I've attended Convention, frankly I've never appreciated having these "new" things shoved down my throat-- they're showcased as the worship music for one of the brief worship services, and people tend to like worshipping in the style they're used to. :~) And the presenters are always so.... earnest... and sincere.... and uh..... smarmy. We're never smarmy-- we're FUN!

So I've been thinking about exactly how we might use this opportunity, and I've decided that unless we're tapped specifically for a worship service-- there will be lots of church bands vying for that chance-- we won't put ourselves forward.

Instead.... I'm going to take a table/booth in the display hall, run a boombox quietly with some of our field recordings, put out the CD-ful of field recordings I'll have by then where you can hear us teaching new songs to groups, and a little brochure about what we do.

Out of all the field rec's we have so far, the ones most interesting to listen to now, I think, are the several teaching tracks. They're old spirituals, of course; I can easily nab quite a few more of these in the coming year. And (tra-lah!) I can set out a lyric sheet without messing into copyright trouble!

DUH!

There are workshops as well-- maybe I'll do one. Not workshops like you might know them from festivals, where it's more of a song cirtcle or jam, but actual teaching workshops. "How to enliven your music program with spirituals, without choir."

I blame Charmion (she'll know why). :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Songleading Vs. Performing
From: Rumncoke
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 10:23 AM

I go to song sessions where the terms are often interchangeable, and you don't know if you are going to be performing a song or leading it, or most usually singing the verses and then everyone does the chorus.

I have quite a repertoire of songs, and some are to a different tune or in a different time to those best known, and some are not that well known.

For instance, this Saturday I found I was performing 'Drake', as no one joined in, and also 'It's time to go now' which is usually a good harmonising song - perhaps because people did not want to leave!! Thinking about it I should have tried 'When all men sing' - but it was almost 1am and I was tired.

Sometimes the difference between a performance and leading a song is the note you start on - if it means most people can sing along then they usually do.