BS: Our weakling military

Subject: BS: Our weakling military
From: 282RA
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:25 PM

I was reading Rick Francona's blog this morning and I have to wonder if this guy is as serious about his military career as he would have us believe. It seems to me that if he is, why is he such a shameless Bush administration yes-man saying things he has to know are simply not true?

5 years down the road, people are going to remember how he kissed Bush's ass unhesitatingly and sang all the songs Bush wanted him to and changed the lyrics where indicated by Bush and his cronies in the Pentagon (of which Francona is a major one anyway). It will affect him because 5 years from now Bush will be the most hated name in the world and that will include for most Americans, and anyone who danced with Bush in this thing are going to get touched by that tarbrush. That's why so many pubs in Congress are already distancing themselves and Francona appears to me to be a deluded individual who honestly believes that Bush knows what he's doing and that we will eventually win this thing.

Francona would have to believe Bush is wrong about Iran in order to
hold this belief but he backs Bush about Iran and has already written blogs supporting Bush's charges. So Francona is an idiot and if he's the best Bush has, we're in big trouble.

What set me off was the old song-and-dance Francona gave in his blog
that a non-binding resolution opposing Bush and this stupid surge are demoralizing to the troops. To hear this from a military man makes me sick--the same miltary guys who actually tack up slogans as "Hey liberals! SHUT UP!"--are now crying?? Anyone who says this is a liar and that includes any soldier. A lot of rightwing soldiers are using this ridiculous god-like status our cowardly society is heaping on them out of guilt to advance their sorry, stupid politics as though they were inviolable utterances of a saint and I'm sick of it. As veteran, I can state with perfect honesty that no soldier gives a damn what people back home think for two reasons:

1. Most of them are so isolated to begin with that they simply have no idea what the public thinks.

2. They have their orders and their job is to carry them out and that is what they're focused on as soldiers and they don't care what anyone else thinks about it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't relieve them of their duties or lessen the punishment they will receive for failing to carry them out. What's public opinion got to do with it? And let him just try to use demoralization as an excuse for dereliction.

Is Francona seriously saying soldiers will throw down their weapons and refuse to follow orders? This much-vaunted brave, selfless, volunteer army they praise from the ground up? It's garbage being advanced by guys shamelessly using their newfound status as heroes to push their stupid rightwing bullshit politics and that's all it is and it needs to be seen for what it is--garbage. Shows you how far adrift this country is when we're too scared to disagree with military people because we feel so guilty for refusing to help them fight this war, too scared to be painted as a terrorist sympathizer by rightwing cretins for exercising our freedom of speech arguing against this embarrassing posturing of the military that says the grunts in the field who are getting maimed or killed everyday are actually MORE weakened by public opposition to the war than they are by lack of responsible, knowledgeable leadership and infrastructure to help them readjust to civilian life once they come home (IF they come home).

If Francona is to be believed, American soldiers in Iraq are pussies. Whining, little, spoiled brats who cry when they don't get their way. I'm not being mean or harsh--that is the implication of Francona's words when he says that the American fighting man can't take anyone questioning the necessity of his mission or he will become demoralized and jeopardize our efforts. If he's that fragile, either he or the mission or both need to be thoroughly reviewed.

What demoralizes a soldier is to lose an arm or a leg or an eye or to be burned over 90% of his body, to be bed-ridden for the rest of his life, to be housed in a crumbling, decaying govt building while receiving treatment because the army has no place else to put them, to come back home with PTSD and receive no help because the military doesn't se this as a real disease, to be given a 0% disability rating because the govt doesn't want to pay for your treatments (if Iraq duty ruined your back, for example, but your medical records showed you had a shaky back before you went in, the military will deny you benefits)--that's the reality and that is what demoralizes a soldier. After all he's sacrificed, he's finally told, "Iraq didn't hurt you none so we're not going to give you anything for your PTSD and loss of hearing but thanks for your time."

So just let me conclude with, "Hey, Francona!! SHUT UP!"

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:48 PM

That a copy and paste job from some unidentified source?

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: 282RA
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:05 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 02:12 PM

If the US military is weak it's because of the Executive and Legislative branches. When you send equipment overseas and don't replace the stuff at home you create a problem when your overseas deployments rotate back and need to train on non-existent equipment.

After a bit the troops get fed up and say, "F**k this sh*t! I ain't gonna re-up! Seen too much, put up with too much!"

It's not the military that's weak -- it's the civilian "leadership", which lacks imagination, a sense of the Constitution, and the guts to do more than to unquestionably support those who supplied them the money to be elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:22 PM

282RA: you are certainly entitled to your opinion - personally, I have never heard of this Franconia person - but your comments indicate a woefully inadequate understanding of the medical and benefits programs administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs (it was once, before 1997, called the Veterans Administration). The VA recognizes PTSD as a "real disease," for which a vet may receive both compensation and medical treatment, a 0% disability rating entitles a veteran to free medical care for that condition (but not to monetary compensation), and the worsening of a pre-existing condition as a result of military service (such as your example of a weak back getting much worse as a result of experiences in Iraq) counts as a compensable disability.

I cannot comment on your point about wounded soldiers being housed in a crumbling, decaying govt building while receiving treatment because the army has no place else to put them. The last Army hospital that I was in was a tent. However, I have been in both VA and civilian hospitals, and there is little to choose between them as far as the quality of the care or the overall physical condition of the facilities were concerned. In fact, my own experience is that the VA is generally better. Admittedly, there are major issues right now with soldiers waiting for medical discharge, because the wheels of the military bureaucracy grind slowly, but the military and civilian agencies involved recognize the problem and are trying to deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: kendall
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:05 PM

Rapaire, ...the civilian control, things haven't changed much since Valley Forge, have they?

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:27 PM

Civilian control of the military is one of the rocks upon which the US is founded. Those in control have to recognize, though, that equipment can only go so far and be repaired so often before it needs replacement. This costs money. Governments have two ways of raising the money: increase taxes now or borrow and increase taxes later.

Right now, there is a shortage of military equipment in the US for the regular armed forces, the National Guard, and the reserves because it's been taken to Iraq and Afghanistan. When a unit deploys home it leaves its equipment for the replacement unit. BUT when that unit gets back to the States there is little or no equipment upon which to train for redeployment.

On-the-job training is good, but as little as possible should be during combat operations.

Either do what is needful to do or stop doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: 282RA
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:46 PM

Artbrooks:

I never said a word about Veterans' Affairs. I said the military won't pay for your benefits. 0% disability means you do not get any percentage of your base pay. You have no choice BUT to go to Veterans' Affairs because that is the ONLY option you have unless you can get someone to change your disability percentage (it literally takes an act of Congress but it has happened for some lucky few).

Nor is there any guarantee VA will do anything. They may, they may not. But my bone to pick is not with VA, it's with the Army and the military in general.

As for PTSD, no matter what they say officially, military brass does not believe in it and will look for any other pre-existing condition to deny you disability pay. If you ever suffered a head injury, were treated for depression, had ever been to rehab, had a bipolar disorder before enlisting or being called back to duty, etc., count on not getting a penny out of the army. And with the lowering of standards for recruitment, these are not rare cases anymore. Years ago they wouldn't have taken you with any of those conditions but now it is getting to be routine and that spells catastrophe for a system that is hellbent on denying compensation for such conditions. It is a system set up for failure--it already is failing.

>>Admittedly, there are major issues right now with soldiers waiting for medical discharge, because the wheels of the military bureaucracy grind slowly, but the military and civilian agencies involved recognize the problem and are trying to deal with it.<<

The way they army is currently trying to deal with it is by denying every injury or medical condition that they possibly can. I'm a vet and have worked for years in the defense industry where I still work. The bottom line is--the money isn't there. And it's getting worse. They're denying as many claims as they can and it is only a matter of time before VA is overwhelmed by people who couldn't squeeze a penny from the army.

They went to war with a peacetime infrastructure in place that is now cracking under the strain. And THAT is what is hurting the soldier.

>>I cannot comment on your point about wounded soldiers being housed in a crumbling, decaying govt building while receiving treatment because the army has no place else to put them.<<

It's at Walter Reed Hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:52 PM

OK, now I understand...you are speaking about military disability retirement pay rather than benefits, as such. The vastmajority of monthly benefits for veterans and the even vaster percentage of medical care for veterans is the responsibility of DVA. And, BTW, I am retired from both the military and the VA.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:10 PM

When Rome could no longer support/care for their army, the state began to decay and lose international status and power.

You are watching a re-run of History.

Those who do not learn from History are condemned to repeat it.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:45 PM

History repeats itself because historians repeat each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:59 PM

They're merely documenting what keeps repeating...

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:00 PM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:14 PM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:18 PM

It's so nice to see you two getting along.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:19 PM

Whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:27 PM

Many minds with but a single thought...

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 08:55 PM

I think that this would be better entitled "Our weakENing military.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:24 PM

Or: To care for him who has borne the battle - A. Lincoln...NOT

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Amos
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 11:04 PM

Our military is not, inherently, weak, and certainly not weaker than any other. But I believe their responsiveness in times of actual danger gets badly corroded by a lack of funding, by bad instructions from addlepated officers and half-educated civilian bureacrats, and especially by being tasked to do violence in an unjust cause or on a fraudulent casus belli. What could be worse for a fighting man's pride?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:29 PM

>>OK, now I understand...you are speaking about military disability retirement pay rather than benefits, as such.<<

Yes. Why any soldier would be denied this after serving in someplace like Iraq is unconscionable. I don't care if someone was bipolar. Obviously, combat in Iraq will exacerbate that and that soldier should be entitled to disability pay. But it isn't meanness that accounts for it.

>>The vastmajority of monthly benefits for veterans and the even vaster percentage of medical care for veterans is the responsibility of DVA. And, BTW, I am retired from both the military and the VA.<<

The DVA is going to collapse if this war drags out. The problem is far more complicated than it was during Vietnam. Probably 50% of the more severely wounded soldiers that survive today would not have survived those injuries in Nam due to lesser medical technology that is generally available to today. We'd have, I would guess, about 13,000 to 15,000 dead already if the was the Vietnam era. While wounded soldiers surviving at higher rates today may sound good on paper, it creates a horrendous mess for both the military and VA. Before, these guys just died and that was that. Now, tens of thousands that would have died will survive and have to be treated and compensated and the money, facilities and personnel are simply not there.

I don't know if people understand that part or not--the money and materiel is not there! It's like that part in "Animal Farm" where they fill the grain bins almost to the brim with sand and then layer the meager grain harvest over the top to give visitors the impression that they are doing very well. We are in that stage and if they do not find a way to end this war soon, there will be no hiding the truth of our situation any longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:40 PM

>>I think that this would be better entitled "Our weakENing military.<<

The reality is that it is weakening but the point I was making is that it is a weakling military that cannot tolerate criticism about its mission as Francona is insisting is the case here with the House passing a non-binding resolution against Bush's escalation of a war already long lost.

It's bullshit too. It never bothered me when people criticized the military when I was in. What did I care? I have my orders and my duties and my job was to perform them to the best of my knowledge and abilities and nothing else entered into it.

IOW, Francona--an experienced military man himself--knows better than to spout that garbage off because it insults the military man's character. That he could do this so shamelessly tells me he is more concerned with protecting asshole than he is the average soldier. This I find unacceptable and my hatred for Francona is slipping into the red. How dare he?? Maybe he's a weak, little sot who can't take criticisms or doubts but I've never had that problem and I never knew any soldiers who did. We're a thicker-skinned bunch than that and his bullshit is uncalled for.

Rick Francona owes the entire American military a HUGE apology and frankly should be forced to resign his commission for conduct totally unbecoming an officer worthy of the title.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 06:56 PM

"History repeats itself because historians repeat each other."

LOLOLOLOLOL

And themselves too

And you should hear them the morning after they've had too much beer and curry ...

... bwaahhh ... the smell!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:25 PM

A dose of Stout will clean 'em out!

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: GUEST,old git
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:56 PM

This has to be one of the best stories I have read in some time.

A man who been wearing unearned medals at ex servicemens parades has been exposed as a fraud. Roger Day of Earl Shilton, Leicestershire. Had attended parades up and down the country proudly wearing a chest full of medals. These included, the Distinguished Service Order and the Military Cross, in addition to campaign medals stretching from World War II to the Gulf war. We also wore an SAS beret and three SAS comrades badges. He would never discuss his service record with anyone, playing it very cloak and dagger, often only winking at questions posed to him or touching his lip, meaning hush hush.

Police had received several complaints about him from ex servicemen in several parts of England. Military experts said it would have been "impossible" for one man to have been decorated with so many honours.

So on Armistice Day last year in Bedworth, Warwickshire he was spotted and police moved in and arrested him. The 61-year-old kept to his story that he had won everything pinned to his chest and due to the fact he was SAS he refused to detail his honours. He changed his plea today to guilty when he appeared in court and was given 60 hours unpaid community work. He was charged under the Army Act of 1955 of unlawfully using military decoration.


All the medals were original, he had paid a fortune for some of them and had them re named to himself. The ERII DSO and ERII Military Cross were worth thousands. THE biggest sickener for him was he had to hand the medals into the court and was told he wouldn't be getting them back !

Priceless

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 07:45 PM

The past is pro log.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:13 PM

POSTED: 04:33 p.m. EST, Nov 11, 2009

PALM SPRINGS, Calif.: A Palm Springs man who was never in the military has been charged with wearing the Navy's highest honor.

Federal prosecutors in Los Angeles say 39-year-old Steven Burton was photographed wearing the Navy Cross along with the Bronze Star, the Purple Heart and other medals.

The U.S. attorney's office said Wednesday that a Navy commander attending her high school reunion noticed Burton wearing a Marine uniform with the medals and contacted the FBI.

Authorities say Burton claimed in Internet postings that he'd served in Afghanistan and Iraq. He's expected to surrender Thursday to face a charge of unauthorized wearing of military medals and could face up to a year in federal prison if convicted.

And

By Sandra Jontz,
Stars and Stripes European Edition (2004)

STAFFORD, Va. — A U.S. Navy captain with 34 years of service was found guilty late Friday night of wearing service ribbons and medals for which he did not rate, including the Silver Star and Distinguished Flying Cross, officials said.

Capt. Roger D. Edwards was found guilty during a court-martial held at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Va., and sentenced to 115 days in the brig, forfeiture of $2,500 pay a month for three months, and a letter of reprimand to be put in his personnel file, said base spokesman Capt. Jeffrey Landis.

The presiding judge, Navy Capt. Henry Lazzaro, did not dismiss him for service, which means Edwards will be entitled to full retirement benefits, Landis said.

Edwards began serving his jail time when the proceeding ended Friday around 10:30 p.m. Edwards was found guilty on 11 specifications of Article 134, wearing ribbons the judge ruled that he had not earned, including the prestigious Silver Star — the third-highest honor for valor — the Distinguished Flying Cross, four Purple Hearts, a gold star on a Defense Meritorious Award, a gold star on a Meritorious Service Medal, the Joint Service Commendation Medal, Combat Action Ribbon, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, and Basic Parachutists Wings, Landis said.

There are a LOT of wannabees out there. Currently, the VA has more POWs listed than the Dept. of Defense lists.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:34 PM

Stolen Valor is a worthwhile read.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:50 PM

Hope that's the site you wanted, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 09:28 AM

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who want to be thought "brave" and "heroic."

Reminds me of a conversation between two Nam vets:

Ron (a company clerk in an Infantry outfit): Yeah, I landed in two hot LZ's. It was hell. (With a smirk, to Don, sitting quietly) So, how many did you land in, Don?

Don: A hundred and twenty-seven.... (and he had the proof, including two Purple Hearts).

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: bubblyrat
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:41 AM

I spent 11 years in the British Royal Navy, including service out in Aden during a time of conflict,but,like many of my colleagues, I was awarded absolutely NO medals at all !! I don't mind really,but we used to find it galling ,when seeing US sailors from, say, USS McCloy, or USS Sanctuary,in respectively,Hong Kong and Singapore,with chestfulls ( chestsfull ?) of medal-ribbons ; we used to joke that the US Navy gave you a medal for opening a Cornflakes packet ( but with good humour,of course !).
    It can be embarrassing,of course,when attending a Remembrance parade; People look at my Fleet Air Arm badge and say " Oh ! You were not in for very long then---no medals ! " . When I reply "Eleven years", they often say things like "Where were you hiding,then ?" which,frankly,can be hurtful !!

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 12:25 PM

I'm thinking about John Kerry and his medals now.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 01:27 PM

The US Navy DOES award medals for things like using a screwdriver without injuring yourself or others, opening a box a cornflakes without help, and successfully walking while continuing to breath.

If you doubt me, ask any US Marine.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:39 PM

Most US medals for valor date to WW1. The tendency to issue decorations for breathing in and out appropriately began in WW2 - after all, the "oversexed, overpaid and over here" crowd had to have something to attract the English girls other than their good looks and sophistication - and reached ridiculous extremes during and after the Vietnam War.   Today, it is easily possible for a soldier/sailor/airman/marine to have 3 or 4 rows (3 to a row) of ribbons without ever doing anything other than going where he was supposed to go and doing what he was supposed to do in a reasonably satisfactory manner.

Valor medal are something else. It is against the (US) law to wear or claim to have earned a valor medal (or military rank) to which you are not entitled, and these people can be, are, and should be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Our weakling military
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:13 PM

My very own brother stopped wearing the Bronze Star with V he won after he met someone who was giving the award for ferrying messages to and from ships during the Grenada thing. Bro felt that simply doing your job didn't deserve that award and cheapened his.

I can wear (at this time) the National Defense Service Medal, the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, the Korea Defense Service Medal and the Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation. I received these for being there. I also have the Expert shooting badge in rifle, carbine, and automatic rifle and an Illinois State Duty ribbon (for flood duty) -- THOSE I earned. I can wear blue backing on my collar insignia, blue scarf, and a "blue rope" because I'm Infantry MOS qualified and stuff.

Lef's see...the last time I wore any of that was in...gee, 1969 or 70, I think.

Some folks have more, some have less. Except for a very few (such as the VC or the Medal of Honor) they don't matter much outside of the military and diplomatic circles.

I've never been to a gathering where I felt it necessary to wear my medals, and I probably wouldn't want to go to one. Too few folk songs, too few banjos, and too little drink.