BS: Global warming - the myth

Subject: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:20 PM

Well at last the truth is out. BBC4 tonight exposed the whole rubbish argument. Check the figures and the history for yourself. The SUN governs our weather and the CO2 changes with the temperature , not the other way around. Just a case of man's inflated ego thinking we can actually have control over nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: folk1e
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:33 PM

Oh bugger!
Does this mean my vineyard in Scotland is doomed?

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:20 PM

Not if you put a strong roof over it and build some fires inside - they might still survive under a mile of ice....

Did you know that Prof Singer, the once instant expert on rubbish the dangers of smoking is now (SURPRISE!!!!) also an instant expert on debunking global warming. But he hasn't had any peer reviewed papers published in this field for ages....

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:26 PM

Ah. So I guess this means we can go back to polluting the air all we want, we can cut down the remaining forests, burn all the fuel, and all that sort of thing. Excellent! I always love to hear an argument that helps rich corporations get even richer. ;-) Just think, if anything goes wrong, blame it all on the sun! What a brilliant notion.

Thanks for relieving my worries about the global warming nonsense, Miskin Man.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:30 PM

I believe that Global warming exists but I don;t know if it is man made or not.

Never the less we should do what ever we can to reduce it in case it is man made. Even if we have to nuke China. (;~>)

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:37 PM

Well, it's probably partly man-made. The question is, how large a part? Even if it's a minor part, it would seem like a good idea to do a few things to help reduce it, as you say, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: pdq
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 09:55 PM

But Al Gore got an Oscar for his movie about Global Warming, that means it must be true, doesn't It?

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:09 PM

That would mean that Ben Hur is a true historical figure. Can't wait for James Cameron to find his sarcophagus.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:15 PM

It really doesn't matter who or what is causing it -- it exists and we have to deal with it. Whether it's manmade or not, it's too late to do anything to stop it; we can (hopefully) mitigate for our great-great grandchildren.

I doubt that we will do much of anything, since as a species we're far too self-centered to worry about something 50, 60, 75 years off.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:16 PM

Yeah and that means every movie that got an oscar is true, Right?

And Davis Guggenheim won the Oscar not Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:18 PM

Anyone got some anti-carbon footprint paraphernalia? Solar panels? Heat Pumps? Plant 1000 trees? Buy a Prius? Coldest Feb here in 30 years. Go figger.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 11:17 PM

You need to read up on global warming some, Mouse. It does not make everything everywhere on the planet get evenly and steadily warmer all at the same time. It cause extreme weather fluctuations in both directions. This is for a great many reasons involving ocean currents, weather patterns, and other such large patterns in nature.

So every time it gets colder where you are, that doesn't prove or disprove global warming theories. And every time it gets warmer where you are, ditto. You have to look at things like average temperatures around the globe, and the average temperatures of large bodies of water.

It was damn cold here in February too. Mind you, it usually is.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 11:20 PM

We are all definately headed for hell in a handbasket.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 11:23 PM

You're right. The solution is simple, elegant, and obvious! I can't figure why no one else has realized it.

All we have to do is put a worldwide ban on handbaskets!

And if that doesn't work, a pre-emptive attack on hell should do it. Rejime change in hell. That must be our next priority.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Dickey
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 01:04 AM

It's too late for that. Just make sure we are wearing sun glasses and asbestos drawers.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 02:59 AM

I found the evidence that the earth had for long periods of time been considerably warmer than today to be interesting. If that is so I am puzzled how the Greeland icecap could have survived until today. What was also noticeably missing was any indication of how ocean levels had varied over time. There were references to the effect of the oceans as stores of energy, but maybe I missed a plot of ocean temeperature against other global temperatures (or solar output) over time, showing the hysteresis.

However, the program was short on hard numbers regarding the scales of the graphs it showed, which would make a major difference, and the tone was so shrill that it invited the conclusion that the programme was propaganda not information.

AFAIK about 85% of relevant scientists are about 85% clear that global warming is a man-made phenomenon. (Radio 3, about 8.45 am 8th March)

There were major misrepresentations of other positions, and omissions of data.

It implied that the sole focus of green beliefs is global warming. It isn't. Other pollution and extinctions are also of great concern.

It implied that the concern of green campaigners is to stop development in undeveloped countries. It isn't. It is to stop pollution by them - and by developed countries.

Did we get any figures on the energy output of the sun and how it varied with sunspots? We did not.

Did we get any explanation of how "cosmic rays" affected cloud formation in the earth's atmosphere? We did not.

Did we get any recognition of the importance of droplet size in cloud formation? We did not.

Did we get any explanation of the effect of solar radiation or "the solar wind" on "cosmic radiation"? We did not.


There were some interesting ideas - but the presentation was very shallow. And I don't think it was on BBC4.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Dazbo
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:18 AM

No, it was on Channel 4. And no one claimed that global warming is a myth, just that it's not man-made but part of the natural cycles of warming and cooling that go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:26 AM

The correct title referred to a swindle, not a myth.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:59 AM

Has anyone read James Lovelock's, 'The Revenge of Gaia' - scary stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Bagpuss
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:02 AM

Can I just point out that the documentary maker Mark Durkin has previously made a programme about global warming being a myth and that he was reprimanded by the ITC for it. Channel 4 had to broadcast a primetime apology. Which makes me somewhat suspect that he might have used some of these tricks in this one too.

The Independent Television Commission ruled: "Comparison of the unedited and edited transcripts confirmed that the editing of the interviews with [the environmentalists who contributed] had indeed distorted or misrepresented their known views. It was also found that the production company had misled them… as to the format, subject matter and purpose of these programs."

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Bagpuss
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:03 AM

Sorry, Martin Durkin

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:43 AM

This is working from the channels web-site on the programme, as I didn't have a chance to see it, but the general approach seems to be ' Science hasn't explained every little change in climate for the last 13,000 years, and they weren't anthropogenic, so the current changes in climate isn't anthropogenic either.
There is a distinct absence of data, and there isn't even a mention of the Milankovitch Hypothesis, which has successfully explain the pattern of ice ages for the last few million years.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 06:22 AM

I doubt that we will do much of anything, since as a species we're far too self-centered to worry about something 50, 60, 75 years off.

This is the fundamental problem with persuading people to stop using their cars, etc. Whatever they may say, most people don't care what happens to the world after they die. They don't really care about their children's children's children's children, because they will never know them (and these hypothetical descendants may never exist anyway).

Here in the UK, young people have more to lose than us older folk, but they seem to care even less (on average) about the future. I see a lot of young people driving around at high speed in cars, throwing litter in the street, etc.

I don't have any ideas as to how to overcome this selfishness (I suppose that's what it is), but I think this is the reason any attempts to get people to cut down on doing things that cause pollution, are basically doomed to failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: skipy
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 06:25 AM

A BLAMING GROWL
is an annagram of global warming!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:14 AM

1. Global warming is real.
2. The probable cause is flutuation in the solar output- Or do you think that the CO2 here on earth is what is changing the Red Spott on Jupiter?
3. This change happens on a repeated basis.


The only real solution that we, as humans, have for this is to balance it with a Nuclear Winter. As long as we do nothing about Iran's nuclear program, this should not be a problem- I estimate we will have a global Thermonuclear war within 12 years, given the present lack of action.

That takes care of the overpopulation problem, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:19 AM

Story on Jupiter

And what about the warming on Mars and Venus?

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Dazbo
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:24 AM

One of the main points against the CO2 and other greenhouse gases being the cause of global warming was that all the models predict that the troposphere would heat up faster than the air lowere down. The programme stated that this was not what was happening: the air lower down was heating up faster than the troposphere so the greenhouse gases were not warming up the planet.

Although I've always been sceptical of the causes of global warming (in my opinion you can make a mathematical model fit any argument you want it to) I'd much rather live on a planet without man-made pollution whether it causes global warming or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: kendall
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:30 AM

Global warming is a natural phase of climate. We all know that. What the polluters don't want to know is that they are helping it along. Look around you...tens of thousands of smokestacks pouring crap into the upper atmosphere day and night. Anyone with more than a teaspoon full of brains can see what is happening. Maybe if my job depended on continuing this crime I might be more inclined to support the pollutors.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:30 AM

Reducing pollution, of all types, is a good and worthwhile thing-

Just don't think it will stop global warming.

What we SHOULD be doing is dealing with the effects, not debating the cause. When will we start to relocate those in areas likely to be flooded? When do we take steps to preserve the species threatened? As long as the belief that we can stop global warming persists, humans will take none of the steps needed to DEAL with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:52 AM

"It does not make everything everywhere on the planet get evenly and steadily warmer all at the same time. It cause extreme weather fluctuations in both directions. This is for a great many reasons involving ocean currents, weather patterns, and other such large patterns in nature."

"Global Warming"refers to the total increased energy in the whole system - in no small percentage as heat. As the total energy of a dynamic system increases, then the 'turbulence' i.e. peaks and troughs, and teh difference between them, increases.


"it's not man-made but part of the natural cycles of warming and cooling that go on. "


Yep but we ARE influencing it...

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:56 AM

"What we SHOULD be doing is dealing with the effects, not debating the cause. When will we start to relocate those in areas likely to be flooded? When do we take steps to preserve the species threatened? As long as the belief that we can stop global warming persists, humans will take none of the steps needed to DEAL with it. "

Doh!

So we can stop the serious effects of it, just so long as we believe we can't stop it?!!!!!!


Doh!


My head hurts...

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 07:59 AM

"So we can stop the serious effects of it, just so long as we believe we can't stop it?!!!!!!"

Straw man argument- NOT WHAT I SAID!

We can DEAL with the effects, by moving people and species. We CANNOT PREVENT them!

Or are YOU going to act like Canute, and command the tides to stop?

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:02 AM

If this is beyond your understanding, no wonder your head hurts! PLEASE get medical help SOON.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:06 AM

If we want people to cut down on pollution, we should make it easier for them to do that.

Don't just improve public transport to encourage people to use their cars less (not that the UK government is doing that anyway), but encourage local industry instead of 'globalisation'. The latter is a major cause of pollution, as it requires goods and food to be shipped around the world instead of being locally sourced.

Bring back local industries, jobs, shops, farms, etc., and people won't need to travel as much, so they won't.

"Localisation not globalisation!"

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Bee
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:45 AM

Some exerpts from different Northern people's perspectives regarding global warming:

http://www.lilithgallery.com/articles/environmental/Climate-Change-Economy.html

Extreme weather shifts in the Arctic bring in their wake swarms of insects, treacherously thin ice floes and fast-spoiling food supplies...

"Many nations think of vulnerability and adaptation to climate change in the abstract -- we experience it," said Kusugak, president of Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami.
"Unusual animals are appearing where I hunt. I'd rather not have these species in my hunting grounds,'' Naalak Nappaluk, 84, a Nunavik community elder who attended the UN conference to voice his concerns about climate change, said through an Inuktitut translator, citing lynx and a new variety of seal pups. "They are not good for the health of the existing animals, and disrupt the balance of nature."
Muctar Akumalik, 73, is perplexed by weather changes around his home in Arctic Bay, Nunavut.
"I used to be able to predict the weather, but now I often get it wrong," Akumalik said, through his translator.
Arctic travel is also more difficult because increasingly strong winds blow snow cover from the trails used by dog teams and snowmobiles, Akumalik added.
Not that climate change has been all bad, said Kusugak, who enjoys more occasions to go out on his boat and to fish during prolonged warm spells.
But the downside -- rotting meat, unexpected ice cracks under foot, homes shifting in the softened permafrost -- is more worrisome, he said.

http://dl1.yukoncollege.yk.ca/agraham/

Reindeer keepers in Norway as well as in Sweden have severe problems in feeding their animals. It is impossible for the deers to dig through layers of snow and ice natural to find fodder. Climate changes and milder weather will lead to heavy snowing winters in coming years.
Northern Canada's tundra is disappearing at a rapid rate, with forests of spruce trees and shrubs taking over the once frozen landscape, new research finds.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:58 AM

The trouble with this debate (on a subject that does worry me) is that you need to understand the science behind global warming. I don't. I'm completely stupid when it come to science. Therefore, as a result, I come under the sway of the last TV programme I've watched. I saw this programme last night. It was very interesting; but whether or not they were right, I am just not in the position to comment. However, they made no mention of the hole in the ozone layer above Antarctica. Is that a natural phenomenon?

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:02 AM

The ozone hole has been shrinking, slowly, as a result of the change in flurocarbon usage. No guarantee that it will not increase or decrease more due to the increase in solar radiation, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:09 AM

You're wasting time, energy, and resources. Stop trying to fix blame and start dealing with the problem that exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:10 AM

Didn't I say that?

8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Dazbo
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:10 AM

What always puzzled me about the ozone layer hole was, assuming that the vast majority of CFCs were in the developed countries of the northern hemisphere, why the hole in the ozone layer was way down south.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Bee
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:13 AM

Penguin Egg, the hole in the ozone is a direct result of a specific kind of pollution, CFCs, and the hole is slowly recovering. It isn't directly linked to global warming. The short article linked below is easy to understand.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1208_051208_ozone_layer.html

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:36 AM

OK

Here's the science.

The GREENHOUSE EFFECT ios an essential part of our living environment.

Heat from the SUN is trapped by CO2 and as a result life can exist on Earth.

In oher words, The CO2 that exists on our planet helps create a CLIMATE that sustains us.

This trapping of heat is called GLOBAL WARMING

It is natural and necessary and simple scientific reality and has always been and will always be as long as there is CO2 in the atmosphere.


The issue faced by us these days is that of "ENHANCED GLOBAL WARMING"

ok?

In other words, producing more CO2 ENHANCES the GREENOUSE EFFECT.

ok?

It's not rocket science, it's BASIC CHEMISTRY.



When scientists make discoveries and develop new technologies that make life easier for us, no one questions their wisdom.

But the moment they discover something that means we have to moderate our behaviour and stop being so bloody self centred and lazy, we suddenly start denouncing them as selfrighteous, lefty scaremongers.

I cannot vocalise how angry this kind of self excusing irresponsible crap makes me.

There are none so deaf as will not hear!

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:42 AM

Earth temperatures in the past

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:53 AM

Here's a thought for the conspiracy theorists among you:

The current debate on Global Warming is a result of factionalism within the Oil Industry. One faction believes that oil is running out so that we have to be weaned off oil in order to make way for the alternative(s) that they will be selling to us in the future. Another faction thinks that there is enough oil for the forseeable future so wants 'business as usual'. These two factions have 'bought' various scientists to push the 'Global Warming is Real' and 'Global Warming is a Myth' points of view respectively.

I don't actually believe any of this (although given the nature of the 'Corpratocracy' that we live in there's just a hint of credibility there). I suspect that releasing lots of fossil carbon into the atmosphere is a really BAD idea (but I don't think that it's going to stop anytime soon).

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:58 AM

If I was an oil company, I'd put your conspiracy idea out there to waste peoples time and distract them even further from the truth.

That would be the only credible conspiracy in this case.

Bunkum and humbug!

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:58 AM

Thanks, Wolfgang.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Dazbo
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:02 AM

"In other words, producing more CO2 ENHANCES the GREENOUSE EFFECT.

ok?"

Exactly the opposite of what the numerous professors on the programme stated. The CO2 follows the warming not causes it.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

It's not rocket science, it's BASIC CHEMISTRY.

Maybe if they pulled all those rocket scientists we keep hearing about, off designing and building rockets, and put them to work to solve the problems of global warming, the greenhouse effect, etc., they would be able to sort it out really easily, as it would seem like a piece of cake after all that rocket science.

Then once they'd sorted it all out, we could let them go back to their rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:13 AM

As a rocket scientist, I have already offered a "solution". Not MY fault if you don't like it...


"The only real solution that we, as humans, have for this is to balance it with a Nuclear Winter. As long as we do nothing about Iran's nuclear program, this should not be a problem- I estimate we will have a global Thermonuclear war within 12 years, given the present lack of action.

That takes care of the overpopulation problem, as well. "

Subject: RE: BS: Global warming - the myth
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 10:17 AM

Wel done Bruce - solved. You may return to your rockets now.