Learning Shanties

Subject: Learning Shanties
From: GUEST,Bob Walser
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:15 AM

Hello shanty lovers,

How did square-rig shantymen learn their songs?
I'm looking on or off-list for nineteenth or early-twentieth century accounts of learning shanties or first attempts at singing at work. Harlow comes to mind. Others?

Thanks,
Bob Walser
seasongs /at/ spacestar /dot/ net

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:22 AM

I always assumed they would learn from more experienced shanty singers, and join in.

But how did they introduce new ones? Somebody must have had the idea for one and started singing it, and the others would have joined in, or perhaps contributed to it, making it a joint 'composition'.

Much like football fans today, learning new 'chants', I would imagine?

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: sciencegeek
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:46 AM

Hi, Bob!

this is the place to ask that question.... but I wonder

the shanties were sung onboard & at the dock, so everyone would hear them....

so it would be the more musical members of the crew that would retain the tunes & words. But how did these newcomers then get the opportunity to lead a shanty? I suspect that multiple concurrent tasks necessitated a shanty leader for each work group, and smartly run ship would make sure that each group had a capable singer assigned. just an opinion, though

good luck with your search, Chris

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 11:57 AM

I've heard of hauling shanties, pumping shanties, shanties for lots of different jobs, but never a learning shanty....

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 12:54 PM

Well, in 1875 my great-great-great-grandfather shipped abort
of the Cutty Sark as an apprentice. Fascinated by the chantying,
as soon as he got ashore he ran into the gift shop and bought
himself a copy of Hugill.

But seriously, I believe the question is still answerable via
primary sources--- ask a Baroullie Whaler or a Menhadan Chanteyman
how the songs and the role of leading them came to him. I suspect
the answers would be much the same as those who sang in tall
ships.

Similarly, I believe the question is in fact best broadened to
one about work songs in general, particularly those used at
heavy labor by workers who are in large proportion illiterate.
How did members of chain gangs learn their work songs, then
transition from chorus to lead?

At the same time, it seems to me that the learning process in the
literate--- such as Harlow, Dana, etc., would be markedly different.
Affected, if you will, by the very literacy of the individual and
by their role as a chronicler of the events of which they were a
part. By the same token, a captain or wife writing an interesting
lyric down in the log wouldn't have gone through the same process
as the apprentice or AB using the work during his learning process.

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Dead Horse
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 02:22 PM

Tune! What does that fellow (sciencegeek) mean? Tune?
The chorus would be just shouted out, as would the verses the shantyman or leader chose to go with. Not too much room for a tune in a howling nor'wester when the rags are being split assunder and the lines are snapping like stock whips.
Unless of course it be a Welsh crew out of Swansea, boyyo. Then Jones the baritone would lead off, and Jones the tenor, Jones the soprano and Evans would sing harmony. This left Hughie and Morgan to do the actual work. :-)
If you have ever heard Dead Horse Shanty Crew singing in the pub after a few pints, you wouldnt waste breath on silly words like 'tune' mate!

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 03:59 PM

Stan Hugill stated that Don Sineti was 'the most authentic sounding'
chanteyman he'd ever heard. Don is VERY loud (often described as
'a force of nature'). He also sings the correct tune, and in tune.

All other things being equal, I have no doubt that any crew would
much rather have a chanteyman who could sing than one who just
bellowed tunelessly.

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM

Bob-

Are you asking how wannabee shantymen learned to sing shanties (performance), or how an experienced shantyman added to his repertoire (sources of the songs)?

I expect you probably are looking for literary references to any of the above.

Hugill certainly learned a lot of his songs from older shantymen, the primary sources, and then from his own literary research and from the research of others. And he learned how to lead shanties from his primary sources as I would reasonably expect to be true of other aspiring shantymen in the 19th century.

With regard to the sources of traditional shanties, I expect that some were created aboard ship by individual shantymen. Others were adapted from shore songs such as broadsides or music hall songs, or field songs or other work songs. And there is clear evidence of shantymen cobbling together a new shanty from the verses of older shanties.

I doubt if any shantyman ever received royalties, or payment for product placement.

Will we be seeing you at Mystic this year?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: bubblyrat
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

I imagine that the nice Captain got all the new sailors together, on the first of their many days off, gave them all a nice drinky-poo, and said " I say, you chaps !! How"s this for a jolly wheeze , eh ?? Some of the older fellows know some really stirring nautical songs, which they cheerfully sing whilst doing the jobs they adore, like hauling in the anchor, or pulling the ropes that make the pretty sails flutter on the masts, and I was wondering if you would consider attending some evening classes so that you could learn some of the words and maybe join in sometimes ?? It"s up to you, of course. There"s no hurry, just sleep on it, and let your welfare advisor know when you have decided. "

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: curmudgeon
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 04:43 PM

Shanties are not so much learned as they are absorbed, like so much salt spray.

On more than one instance, thirsty travellers have entered the Press Room during a shanty session and either have fled instantly, or been taken in by the singing.   In short order, some have found themselves joining in with no prior knowledge or understanding of the genre. Even the regular bartender and waitress have their favorites that they sing along to. This is a universal music.

Both Frank Shay, "Amercan Sea Songs and Chanteys" and David Bone, "Capstan Bars'" provide intimations of learning in the forewards, introductions, acknowledgements, et al.

Where the first shanymen got their songs is open to speculation.Certainly the influence of the West Indies cannot be downplayed. Somewhere n my electronic archives, I have ac   West Indians leading shanties on a Brtitish naval vessel which date to about the time Dana was writing, but I can't find it. I sent it to Barry Finn, so maybe he can provide this information.

In early days, before the great expansion of sea commerce that came in the 19th century, most ships would draw a reasonable number of the crew from the home port. Since these men would be familiar with local songs, it would be relatively easy to adapt a well known song to a tedious task, heaving at pumps or capstan. "Billy Boy" is mostly known as a Newcastle folk song, but it's the first shanty in Terry's collection.

It would also be a serious mistake to assume that Jack was illiterate. Most of the old shellbacks did atend church for a spell and thus had the basics of readig, ie., the Bible, and singing hymns to written music.

These are but my personal observations and I hope to read other conjectures on the topic - Tom Hall

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 05:10 PM

Many years ago I was in the Pram Factory (Melbourne) after the conclusion of their season performing the (then) new translation of the Oresteian Trilogy. We had to bump out that night and all the cast and some friends set to work. I ended up working in the rafters dismantling the lighting, one part of which required about 10 of us, in a line along a beam very similar to a yard, having to pass a heavy loom of about 50 electrical cables along the length of the beam. The only effective way to do this was to have us all lift it in unison and move it the 12" or so across the front of our bodies, repeatedly.

The group was uncoordinated and ineffective until I started singing a song that most Australians learned at school; "South Australia".

To be fair, I was well experienced at leading songs and had been known as a shanty singer but, for me, it was a rare occasion when the work at hand really called out for a shanty. It worked perfectly. And, I later found out, others used the same technique at later bump outs. I suppose they were led by someone who'd been part of that Pram Factory crew.

I'd suggest that the subsequent singers acquired and performed such a role exactly as had earlier seamen. It's a while since I read Hugill but much of the Mudcat chat about shanties seems to concentrate on how things were done on the larger ships. I suspect smaller, coastal vessels might also have influenced how people learned maritime things too. Before they got nylon ropes and high geared capstans, that is; shanties are pretty much a lost cause on racing yachts.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 05:25 PM

Sorry Tom I can't find them either.

Bob, I believe you're asking for documented sources that you can site, that tell of a process of someone learning shanties, yes?
I'll go over some books but off hand I believe there references to examples in "On Board the Rocket" I'll check around anyway.

While being the honorary shantyman (1978 or 9) on board the museum brig Cathaginian at Lahinia I met George Herbert (the "Master Rigger from Geelong", as I later can to know him as). He started out as a cabin boy in the Baltic trades around 1912 or 14 at age 12 or 13, he later ended up in the Cape Horn trade before promising his bride to be that he'd swallow the anchor in Aust., he then began his trade as a rigger (his work is to be seen on the Elma Dopa, the Golden Plover, the Endevour-as a consultant, the Hawaiian Chieftian, etc.). I don't know if he sang on board as a shantyman but he told me that he did start to collect the from his early days. He played alto uke, concertina (english I think from the sounds of the tapes he sent me, I never bothered to look when I was with him) & harmonica while at sea but I don't know when this started. I believe that a couple of the songs that I have from him came out of his early days in the Baltics. The "Albertina" & the "Good Ol Brig" both found in Hugill & a few other places but not George's versions. So These he would have picked up as a youngster while in the trade & kept them in his repertoire for later use (use for what, I'm not sure but he could sure sing them in him late years). Anyway if it's printed sources you seek, I'll look as I do remember reading something to state that but where, I'll have to look.
Good luck

Barry

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 06:51 PM

Here's what Cicely Fox Smith had to say about some shanty singer revivalists in the 1920's from the introduction of her collection of traditional sea songs called A BOOK OF SHANTIES, pp. 14-15:

"...let me briefly describe a painful experience of my own as to how not to do it. It was at a music hall which shall be nameless. The curtain rose, revealing one of those impossible stage inns -- made of creeper and green trellis at sevenpence-ha'penny a lineal foot -- called "The Jolly Tar," or something equally improbable. Outside this preposterous establishment were seated at a small table three large mariners, whose costume -- an artistic blend of jerseys, seaboots, cheesecutter and stocking caps -- suggested that they had made an indiscriminate raid on the slop chest at the Sailors' Home. Quoth one of these worthies to another: 'Let's have a tchahntey!' and amid encouraging cries of 'A tchahntey -- yes, a tchahntey!' the individual addressed rose, and, with a wealth of dramatic gesture, laying aside his churchwarden pipe, sang -- well, I just forget what he did sing! It was too painful to listen to...Strong men have wept to see such things done: murmuring the while in voices broken with emotion that they wished they had that blank-blank crowd on watch in the old This-That-or-the-Other, in order that they might perform the interesting nautical operation of knocking eight bells out of them."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: curmudgeon
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 07:36 PM

Found it !

he American magazine _Army & Navy Chronicle_ of Nov. 9, 1837 (p. 293) reprints, from the _Londonderry Journal_, "further particulars" of "The Voyage of H.M.S. Terror, Commanded by Captain Beck." According to the article, _Terror_ had been trapped in in Arctic ice for more than a year, from June 1836 to July 1837. Having finally cut the ship loose, "the men were incessantly at the pumps, night and day, one-half sleeping while the rest were pumping, six feet of water being in the hold."

The article goes on to remark "the exhilerating [sic] and enlivening effect produced among the brave but exhausted crew, by the singing of a series of songs, while at work, composed by one of the sailors, who had been a long time at the West Indies, in the merchant trade, where he picked up the tunes from the black fellows. Although it is contrary to man-of-war discipline to allow noise at work, yet, in this case, it is agreed on all hands that he was of the greatest service; any thing being excusable which could encourage men situated as they were."

The _Terror_ finally reached Lough Swilly, anchoring at "Knockalto fort."

When the vessel came to anchor, the sailors at work were "busy, chorusing the sailor's song of 'Sally round the corner.' " This was presumably a version of the shanty still familiar as "Round the Corner, Sally."

This may be the earliest known account to connect shantying with the West Indies, as well as the earliest to emphasize the _ad lib_ nature of the lyrics--not surprising since there seems to have been just one man in the crew of nearly sixty who knew some shanties.

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Ferrara
Date: 13 Mar 07 - 08:16 PM

Wow Tom, nice work. Great story too.

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:33 AM

Great stuff, curmudgeon! The name "Beck" has resonances to a colleague so I'm passing the quote along.

Barry, when you wrote you
"met George Herbert (the "Master Rigger from Geelong", as I later can to know him as). He started out as a cabin boy in the Baltic trades around 1912 or 14 at age 12 or 13, he later ended up in the Cape Horn trade before promising his bride to be that he'd swallow the anchor in Aust., he then began his trade as a rigger (his work is to be seen on the Elma Dopa"

you started me thinking. I used to live 30 miles out of Geelong (Australia) at Steiglitz; is that the one you mean? If so, did you mistake the "Elma Dopa" for the "Alma Doepel", a resuscitated ship now at Melbourne, that was built on the Bellinger River not far from Bellingen in northern NSW?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 01:07 AM

Yes Rowan. George actually lived in West Geelong, still married to his young bride, an Aussie, George was English when he ran away from home, so he told me. So that's how you say & spell the name! Thanks. George probably has as hard a time with my accent as I had with his. I believe that would be the same ship. He was also involved with the rigging of other ships but I don't remember. I had some e-mail communication with the head rigger of the Endevour (maybe Brian Toss, I'm no longer sure who) & he had given me a list of other ships George rigged that I didn't know about which sadly I also don't remember. George was flown to Melbourne where he ended up with some nerve damage in his back so he couldn't physically help but I was told he was still invaluable, he was I believe at that point in his late 90's.

Barry

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:37 AM

My pleasure, Barry

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:03 AM

The sailors soon learnt the shanties when they knew they would get tied to the mainmast and given a taste of the cat, if they got any of the words wrong.

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:36 AM

Scrump, you're letting the cat out of the bag.
I need some sleep!

Barry

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: radriano
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 01:40 PM

I've heard it said that many a shanty singer with a poor voice was prized for his ability to improvise and thus entertain the other sailors.

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: JohnB
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:47 PM

Palmer quotes acouple of early shanties in the Oxford Book of Sea Songs or whatever it is called, the earliest being "Haul on the Bowline" from 1600 or before. He goes on somewhat chronologically, from there, so there could be something you are looking for.

Not to thread creep but is that the same Terror, as Franklins Erebus and Terror?
JohnB

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:23 PM

Nice work, Tom!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: GUEST,Bob Walser
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:09 AM

Hello all, sorry to vanish on you. I was called for Jury Duty (guilty, as it turned out).

Anyway, many thanks. Indeed as Charley Noble guessed I am looking for documentation rather than imagination. Tom's tasty bit was just the sort of thing! I have most of the usual shanty books so the references to Bone and Shay saved me some time, but some of you lot have read lots of narratives of going to sea (like Round Cape Horn on the Bark Amy Turner) and it was those kinds of works I wonder about...

Thanks to all and yes, I will be at Mystic this year. See you there.

Bob Walser

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:26 AM

Getting back to Beck - he was really Back, if you see what I mean. Later Admiral Sir George Back. And he did command H.M.S. Terror at one stage.

Regards

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 02:55 PM

Hi Bob,

It's funny that you mention "Round Cape Horn on the Bark Amy Turner," because that was exactly the source I was going to point you towards.

There are a few other books that contain accounts describing songs being learned, but these are almost always accounts of gams or other social situations. I've looked at a lot of books and journals and found that accounts of chanteying are exceedingly rare. You probably know most of these, but here are a few things to check out.

I'm sure you are familiar with R.H. Dana's "Two Years Before the Mast" which has a passage describing how sailors in California picked up the idea of singing at the boat oars from Kanakas.

J. Ross Browne, 1846. Etchings of a Whaling Cruise, contains some interesting accounts of musical activity, including a bit where the crew presses a well-known singer named Tom into giving them a bit of a master class.

William Whitecar's Four Years Aboard the Whaleship. . . , which describes a voyage on the bark Pacific circa 1855, has a lot of accounts of music making, but as is the case with most sailor's writing, he is more inclined to describe occasions of social music making, rather than chanteying.

I would also point you to Frank Bullen's "Songs of Sea Labour (Chanties)", which makes the point made by Radriano above, that the tune was the primary element of the chantey that was learned, and that besides the first verse or two, and the general story line, the majority of chantey lyrics were improvised, or were at least unique to the particular chanteyman. Bullen thought it was improper to print more than a couple of verses of each song because there was never a set text for any chantey, and he didn't want to create a canonical text!

Hope that helps!
Cheers,
Rev

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 06:04 PM

Hi Bob - long time no etc. I see the thread is running the usual 'just ball it out - who cares about tunes'. I have some material from interview articles with John Short (Yankee Jack) of Watchet who I've mentioned to you before - he was the sole source for 'Rosabella' and the man who gave Sharp most of his published shanties (and a fair few to Terry, too). I'll try to get it together over the next week or so and e-mail it to you. It's mostly what and when, rather than how, but it may be useful. Barbara & I are now accelerating the work on the Short Sharp Shanties project - got a workshop that's been out a couple of times already. When are you over??

Tom Brown

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:13 PM

Hi Tom
Why not answer that here so all can share & benifit from your findings. It would be greatfully appreciated.
Thanks
Barry

Hi Bob
I mentioned above the book "On Board the Rocket" by Captain Robert C Adams 1879 as something to be referenced. You may or may not have read it though others here may find it of use. It does not give what you're looking for, sorry. But it does end off with chapter XII "Sailor Songs" & give their (shanties) uses & the how to as they were applied going into debt discreptions about the "yips", "howls" & "yells" used by shantymen as well as how one would be able to tell what weather deck activies were going on by the type of shanty being lead & how one could forcast the weather from below by the resetting of sails. As to how one came upon this vocation it doesn't give a clue. An example, while crossing the Pacific it was somewhat erie how in one night we were able to become awakened by the flapping of sails when approching the doldrums & knowing before going on deck what was at hand, or when catching the trades once off the Hawaiian coast leaving behind a certain chop & tack & then catching a steading swell instead what was appearant but here Captain Adams explains even further how it is more apperant with songs added to the equation. Though not what you're looking for, still pretty interesting.

You may not know or remember me, I performed for the dedication of Gundlow the "Captain Ewards H Adams" in Portsmouth, NH. maybe 15-18 yrs ago. I was the other guy on the bill.
Good luck
See ya
Barry

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Yes, Bob, when are you coming over?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: sciencegeek
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:25 PM

Barry, how can you think that anyone wouldn't remember you... lol

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:42 PM

"Barry, how can you think that anyone wouldn't remember you"

Aw thanks, back when I was younger I wasn't as cute.

Barry

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: GUEST,Bob Walser
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:01 AM

Barry, you're unforgettable... And helpful!

Adams' was one of the books Carpenter used for his Thesis, though Carp just copied the song texts and skipped any commentary. He might have taken issue with Adams' wish for "some philanthropic poet to provide a more elevating style of composition"!

Thanks again, all. Useful stuff. Next trip to the UK in late June for meetings in Sheffield and then a chance to play with/for the Abram Morris on the one day a year they dance. Don't think I'll make it to Devon or Herga, but you never know...

Bob

Subject: RE: Learning Shanties
From: GUEST,Bob Walser
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:13 AM

Thanks, Rev, for the pointer to Browne. I'd only spotted his text for "Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy" (which he calls "Parting Moments") and will enjoy the trawl for the passage you mention.

Bob