BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?

Subject: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:39 AM

''For most of the 20th Century, the contest for the U.S. presidency was waged over those "in the middle." Recent Presidential elections, however, have not been focused on the middle but on the turnout of each party's special interest groups – with each party's "base" representing barely ten percent of the American people.

We believe that, while the leaders of both major parties are well intentioned people, they are trapped in a flawed system – and that the two major parties are today simply neither relevant to the issues and challenges of the 21st Century nor effective in addressing them.

As a result, most Americans have not been enthusiastic about the choices for President in recent elections, the key issues they ran on, or the manner in which the campaigns were conducted.

Therefore Unity08 will act to assure that an alternative ticket is presented to the American voters in 2008.'

This is from the website for Unity08, a new online organization that plans the evolution of a political philosophy and strategy that springs from the belief of participants across the country. Unity 08 was featured in Atlantic Magazine Jan/Feb issue, and was founded by Jerry Rafshoon, Doug Bailey, Hamilton Jordan, and Roger Craver. These men are well-known political consultants who worked for Carter, Ford, and others, and gradually became angered and disgusted by the increasing role played by fund-raising, the disproportionate influence of lobbyists and special interest groups, television attack ads, and the pandering of both parties to their extreme wings. It is an attempt to use the Internet as a tool for revolutionizing the process, and I for one think its worth a look.
In fact, I've volunteered as a delegate.
Investigate at this site.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:04 AM

It's just a thinly disguised effort to make sure that the left's agenda breezes through even faster. When the only measure by which success is determined is the growth of government, it's not hard to figure out which side these "unifiers" are on.

They have BIG issues with the agenda of the "far right" "special interests", but firmly believe in the "special interests" of the left.

That's not unifying. That's the same old wolf in sheep's clothing that has been demanding that we stop public debate/"partisan bickering", just "get along" so we can get back to the business of growing government.

Doubt it? Name one compromise they offer that would move toward a conservative agenda. Now name a bazillion that they would applaud in the other direction.

Nice try. It'll probably sell.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:08 AM

what do "conservative" and "compromise have in common?

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:19 AM

The only way to end this impasse is through revolution & armed struggle. No matter who you vote for, or which political party, you can be CERTAIN of one thing-----They don"t give a damn about you, the People, or the country, come to that. All they care about is Power, and looking after Number One. This is the situation that prevails in the UK at present, and many of us would like to see big ,big changes in the way that we are governed. So come on, America, ---show us the way, and we will gladly follow !!

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:32 AM

Interesting, LeeJ. I hope it is successful. They have borrowed some tactics from MoveOn, i.e. using the internet to facilitate gathering their forces. I will be sending info on to several friends and family members. Something has got to change.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:37 AM

Speaking of growing the government, seems to me the Mr. Bush has done his part!

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:39 AM

I am sick and tired unto death of "agendas" "liberals" "conservatives" "radical right" "radical left" and the rest of those tired old labels. How about someone who says, "Let's work for the common good, for the good of the nation, of the community" for a change?

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:40 AM

"Speaking of growing the government, seems to me the Mr. Bush has done his part!"

Yup, and you can darn well bet that this group's solution for fixing Bush's drunken sailor act is to spend more and grow bigger.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:43 AM

"I am sick and tired unto death of "agendas" "liberals" "conservatives" "radical right" "radical left" and the rest of those tired old labels. How about someone who says, "Let's work for the common good, for the good of the nation, of the community" for a change?"

Have you listened to Newt Gingrich lately? He's saying the same thing. But when he says it it is suspect because, well because he has been "labeled". You can believe that you're open to "ideas", and sick of the "agendas", but until you realistically look toward any ideas that you haven't been embracing all along, you're doing exactly what you're complaining about.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:46 AM

Are newt and rapaire somehow related? I think we should be told ;-)

Though I was under the impression that it was ken livingstone that had a thing for newts ... hmmmm ...

The plot thickens!

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:06 AM

Perhaps John Hardly is an example of why this may not work? It's not as if Clinton or any other Democrat has ever been "labeled." (That's irony in case anyone misses it.)

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:10 AM

Well, it'll add to the existing confusion anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:12 AM

Why me? Everyone else in this thread has equally strongly held philosophical principles. You disagree with mine and therefore wish I'd simply go away -- not participate in the public forum. That's what's wrong with this organization, and every preceding one like it that come to us under the presumption of "getting along" and "getting beyond our partisanship", when what they really are suggesting is the same old same old left message...

We are the good guys. We mean well. Our points of view are right and nobody should disagree with us. If you disagree with us, you are mean and partisan, have an agenda, and are unyielding.

The right is "extreme". The left never is.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:20 AM

John:

I don't see in their agenda that they are proposing what you say they are. Where's your data from?


A

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:22 AM

It's an election. Facts and platforms don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:27 AM

Look at who they are Amos. Look at whom they appeal to. If I'm wrong I'll eat my hat. Wait. I'm not wearing one. I'll eat your hat (properly washed and baked first, of course).

Look at a list of goals and show me the one that talks about cutting down the size of government. ...or even looking at the possiblity of waste or redundancy in government.

Show me the person in their organization that doesn't believe that all capital and property is ultimately the government's.

Show me the person in their organization who believes that the government is a net consumer -- not a producer.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:29 AM

Peace is correct on this issue.

BOTH parties need to move back towards the center, but I have no faith that EITHER of them will- it is a lot easier to "mobilize your base" by appealing to the extremes, who will go along with you out of fear of the "other" side getting control.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:45 AM

The center is a myth.

It sounds SO good because everyone WANTS to get along. But politics is about fighting for what you want (if you're honorable, what you want is what's good for the country) and when you don't get what you want, you walk away with as much as you can get and fight for the next chunk of real estate with your very next political breath.

Neither side will quit. Nor should they.

Which principle, upon which you stand, for which you feel passion, are you simply going to walk away from in the name of "getting along"?

Not one.

And it doesn't make you extreme to be that way either. Most people are already "centrist" in the only way being "centrist" makes any political sense...

...most hold views along a spectrum of degrees over any number of issues. That's not "centrist". That's more like "heterogized".

And the "heterogized" politically active are going to fight tooth and nail for every single issue about which they feel passion.

The repair that the government is sorely in need of is the means to make debate fair and fruitful, open and clear.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:50 AM

"Centrist" is what everyone wishes their political opponent would be when that political opponent is winning.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 10:29 AM

Balls. I see no agenda here, right or left. There IS no stated political agenda as of yet. If you think that the current method of electing official is a healthy one, John, then by all means stick with it. But thr fact remains that anyone seeking high office is forced under the current system to raise huge amounts of money, and thus indebt himself to PACs and other lobbyists to achieve their goal.
This an approach that may work, and is damn well worth looking at for the rest of us who don't like the way the process currently works. It's a better one in my eyes than launching a third party as a protest vote (see Ralph Nader), because it shows sign of rising from a mutual consensus.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:34 AM

Why you, John? Your postings strike me as partisan finger-pointing which this Unity08 does not seem to be, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:45 AM

Of course. You agree with those on the left ( the Unity08 folk) and so you see me as finger pointing. Like them, you want political passion as long as it is all in agreement with your world view. If it's not, it's everyone else who can't "get along".

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:07 PM

That's complete bullshit and you know it, John. You have started out by pointing the finger. Just remember, for every finger you point, four are pointing back at you. How can anyone have a discussion with you when you come in packing from the start. Sheesh.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:17 PM

Unity(08) says that, in their opinion

Crucial Issues include: Global terrorism, our national debt, our dependence on foreign oil, the emergence of India and China as strategic competitors and/or allies, nuclear proliferation, global climate change, the corruption of Washington�s lobbying system, the education of our young, the health care of all, and the disappearance of the American Dream for so many of our people. These don't really sound like "left" or "liberal" (whatever that is) issues to me, and none of them appear to necessarily involve government growth.

And, they go on to say that by contrast, we consider gun control, abortion and gay marriage important issues, worthy of debate and discussion in a free society, but not issues that should dominate or even crowd our national agenda. These have been, it seems to me, issues that have dominated the agenda of the "right" and have precluded concentration on things that are really important.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:22 PM

"... gun control, ... that have dominated the agenda of the "right" and have precluded concentration on things that are really important. "

I am afraid it is the left that has been pushing gun control. The right has been protesting the left trying to implement what the left has some desire for.


Some of us actually believe that the Bill of Rights should not be messed with, by either side.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:23 PM

They are "left". Especially the ways they consider dealing with the issues, they are "left".

Kat,

I will make a point out of pointing all fingers forward. That should correct the flaws in my reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:42 PM

I think there's a little selctivity in that Bill of RIghts position, BB. ALL of it?? Hmmmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:00 PM

I stated "some of us". I can, in reality, only speak for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 01:13 PM

*bg* John...

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:10 PM

"Left" - surely American politicians don't do "left". Just different shades of right.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:30 PM

McGrath,

Like everyone else in the world, I am a "centrist". Those more liberal than I ( many here) are to the left, and those more conservative ( some, I know) are to the right.


Politics is relative.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 04:13 PM

BB: I hate to disagree, but "gun control" (whatever that really means) has always been a "right" issue. There is no army of lefties out there waiting to pry the guns from your cold dead hands. The vast majority of people to the left of center (and I'm not going to attempt to define that, either) could care less if you own and use firearms, as long as you do it safely and sanely.

Based on my own circle of friends and acquaintances, there are about the same percentage of people throughout the political spectrum who own firearms for hunting and personal protection. Admittedly, there are some people on the idiot fringe, somewhere to the left of Ted Kennedy, who would like to register all guns, but the NRA and other members of the gun lobby are the ones who have somehow morphed this into a desire on the part of "liberals" (whatever that means) to confiscate guns. This is a hot button that can always be depended upon to bring out the single-issue voters.

Now, enforcement of the existing laws against private ownership of automatic weapons, and getting all of the AK-47s off the street, is a different issue, but one for another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 04:24 PM

If we had actually enforced the existing laws we wouldn't be in the fix we are now.

By the way, Newt Gingerich is my illegitimate daughter. "He" had this operation, see....

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 04:36 PM

"By the way, Newt Gingerich is my illegitimate daughter."

Are you sure? ...'cause I'm pretty sure he can read.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 04:50 PM

True enough, no doubt, bruce - but I think it's as well to remind Americans sometimes that your "left" is what would be considered well to the right of centre in many (probably most) most democratic countries. So there's no real reason to get so hot under the collar about it and talk as if you were dealing with wild extremists.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:13 PM

Well, Gun Control, Gay Marriage, and Abortion are certainly hot button issues, with a heat out of proportion to their importance in the overall scheme of things. I think the NRA has perpetrated damage on our country through their constant opposition to reasonable control of such things as handguns and cop-killer rounds. I might believe that any person who is backed by the NRA, or is an NRA member, is corrupt. Yep, that's a liberal attitude. However, I oppose abortion for numerous reasons and find Pro-choice candidates
difficult to support. I hold views that are considered both liberal and conservative, depending upon the issue. Frankly, I think this describes many voters. These hot button issues provoke reactions from many of us that are frankly detrimental, and thus they probably should assume priority not on the strengthof reactions they provoke, but in their relative importance to the country's welfare.

Hey, maybe Gay Marriage is a huge priority. If it is, I suspect that fact will emerge from discussion on the Unity08 site, if they succeed in what they are trying to do. I however suspect it is of primary importance to those who are gay, or those who think homosexuality is an abomination, but for the rest of us it comes far behind such issues as resolving the War in Iraq, eliminating oil dependence, and rectifying the disgusting disfunction and lack of true representation in our government.

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 02:29 AM

Well put, LeeJ.

A friend just sent me the following quote, the full quote which is often truncated:

"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right." -Carl Schurz, revolutionary, statesman and reformer
(1829-1906)

Subject: RE: BS: An End to American Politics as Usual?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:44 PM

All presidential candidates, Republican and Democrat, are being sent the following questions in an email campaign by Unity08. It will be interesting to see who responds and how they answer. This should trigger the first national coverage by the popular press of this movement.

"1. Please list 2-3 bipartisanship efforts that you clearly remember as making a positive difference for our country.

2. Name three currently-serving elected officials, not of your own party, whose contributions to the public good you most admire.

3. What do you consider the three most crucial challenges that the next president will confront? Are any of them likely to be met fully without some significant bipartisan cooperation?

4. Will you commit, if elected, to appointing at least three members of your cabinet from outside your own party?

5."Yes" or "No - would you consider running for president in the general election with a vice presidential candidate from outside your party?"