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17 Apr 07 - 05:56 PM (#2028243) Subject: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,mg Something else has bothered me about this Imus thing, this time about calling a journalist a cleaning lady. It should not be so in this land called America that we can insult someone by calling them a job title. We should all respect each and every worker, and I would say in particular those who do the less monetarily rewarding jobs, that people should just go huh?/?? or eh??? if you are in Canada...where is the insult in calling someone that. Now I realize he was trying to insult her and I realize she went to a lot of college and put a lot of work into her profession and there are historical antecedants here etc...But it should be the same as calling someone a doctor or electrician or something...we need to respect all honest work and those who do it, either out of preference for that type of work, or circumstances that don't give them many choices. If someone called me a cleaning lady, which they wouldn't because I am not gifted in that area, I would say, "if indeed I were one, I would be quite proud of my skills and my contribution to medical facilities, business facilities, families etc." It is a very odd insult to me,because it is something people should be proud of, as they should be proud of whatever they do. mg |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:03 PM (#2028254) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Jean(eanjay) People from all jobs can be in the Queen's Honours List. I agree that we should all be proud of what we do. It's like a lot of things now, somebody gets an idea about what is right or wrong to say and then we're all frightened to say it in case we offend someone. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:05 PM (#2028257) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Rowan If my destiny is to be a beggar I must try as hard as possible to be the best I can. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:06 PM (#2028258) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Bert Right on the mark, mg. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:07 PM (#2028260) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: skipy Brave new world! A Hux. Skipy |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:11 PM (#2028262) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: katlaughing Right now, I would consider it a huge embarrassment if someone called me "the President" he has maligned that office so much. I agree with you, Mary, there is honour in any honest day's work. Out here, where there are so many immigrants from Mexico, many people are prejudiced towards them and the work which they do; it is a sad thing and totally unfair. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM (#2028265) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Jean(eanjay) You're right, mg, it should not be regarded as an insult. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:13 PM (#2028267) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Liz the Squeak I was once a 'cleaning lady'... just which I'd had as much impact as the 'cleaning woman' in 'Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid' with Steve Martin. LTS |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:14 PM (#2028268) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: McGrath of Harlow The term "shock jock" is a pretty vicious insult. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:17 PM (#2028274) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Anyone who would use "cleaning lady" as an insult is clearly an ass. Now who was this, again? |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:22 PM (#2028286) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Jean(eanjay) You have to know a lot about health and safety to be a cleaner - such as knowing about all the chemicals and how to safely use them. Also, I remember reading an article a few years ago about people in London in high powered jobs, who just wanted to get away from all the stress etc., becoming cleaners. They were very happy doing that job, felt it was worthwhile and felt valued. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:31 PM (#2028295) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Richard Bridge Look, it's capitalism, stupid. "Cleaning Lady" = Poor. It's what comes of not having a proper class system. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:35 PM (#2028300) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Hmmm - a "proper" class system ... now what would that look like, Richard? |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:35 PM (#2028301) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Don(Wyziwyg)T There are many who would say that comparing a journalist to anyone who does an HONEST job, is wildy flattering to the journalist. Don T. |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:38 PM (#2028305) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Sorcha Richard, I sincerely hope that was tongue in cheek, LOL! Hey, I cook pizza (and clean) for US minimum wage, $5.15/hr. and I love it. Nothing to bring home, no work, no baggage, and I'm satisfied if my customers and my Bosses are satisfied. Hell, I've even been donating an hour or 2 a day to get the place whipped into shape before the Inspector comes knocking. I've even started a 'movement' among the other help to clean stuff when they aren't busy. How much more can you ask for? |
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17 Apr 07 - 06:42 PM (#2028312) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Sorcha - If you're ever in the neighbourhood and have some time on your hands, um, do you think you might like to stop by? I think the Inspector has me on his list ... |
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17 Apr 07 - 07:03 PM (#2028334) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Richard Bridge Class = accent, and having been to a proper school |
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17 Apr 07 - 07:15 PM (#2028343) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: DebC The person that mg is referring to is Gwen Ifil who wrote a wonderful essay in the NYT about the Imus affair here Some people really know how to say what they want to say and she certainly has the talent for it. Deb www.DebraCowan.com |
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17 Apr 07 - 07:37 PM (#2028356) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Riginslinger I've always liked Gwen Ifil until I saw her last weekend on Meet the Press with Tim Russert. I thought she came off as totally racist herself. You could tell she was really pissed about being called "the cleaning lady," though. And that's the way she came off--as a totally pissed-off cleaning lady. I think she thought she was getting even, but it did more damage to her than to Imus. |
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17 Apr 07 - 07:39 PM (#2028358) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace My grandmother ended he days as a cleaning lady. I loved her very much. |
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17 Apr 07 - 07:47 PM (#2028368) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself "Class = accent, and having been to a proper school" Now, cruel experience has taught me that I can be a little slow on the uptake here, so, before I spit my tea all over my keyboard, please tell me you're being ironic, speaking tongue-in-cheek, playing devil's advocate, taking the mickey or piss out of me, striking a pose, just joshin', shooting a line of bull, having or leading me on, pulling my leg, yanking my chain, and/or stringing me a line. |
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17 Apr 07 - 07:54 PM (#2028373) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Bobert Well, it ***is*** bad enough that there are folks out there doing whatever it takes to put some bread on the table for their families but ***worse*** to think that some folks get their jollies degradin' these folks... It is not only an insult but is shamefull to the core... |
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17 Apr 07 - 09:22 PM (#2028448) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Willie-O "The term "shock jock" is a pretty vicious insult." Are you serious? It is applied to people who make very big bucks by insulting other people on the airwaves--and the bar seems to be continually raised as to how nasty the insults can be. "Shock jock" seems a pretty tame description to me. "Cretinous assholes with microphones" comes closer. W-O |
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17 Apr 07 - 09:59 PM (#2028474) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Q (Frank Staplin) Just checked the yellow pages here in western Canada. No cleaning ladies but a lot of maids. I use a "Mollymaid" myself. |
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17 Apr 07 - 10:50 PM (#2028516) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Rapparee I used to clean in a hospital. Scrubbed surgery, labor and delivery, all sorts of things. Cleaned the toilets, too. Did such a good job that once my supervisor brought the hospital administrator down to see it. Never thought of it as demeaning to me or any of those I worked with. |
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17 Apr 07 - 11:21 PM (#2028527) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Bert This thread makes me proud to be a Mudcatter. |
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18 Apr 07 - 03:15 AM (#2028595) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Mo the caller "Cleaning lady" is a very genteel, namby pamby American insult compared to the British "char woman". I do agree that every job should have the the same respect (and that dirty, unpleasant jobs should not be worst paid), but that's not how it is. |
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18 Apr 07 - 07:29 AM (#2028742) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,Black Hawk I used to joke with one of our cleaning staff when she said something I disagreed with that she was 'only a cleaning lady'. She sometimes used the phrase herself in the same manner. She also knew my real feelings were that I do not think I could bring myself to carry out her tasks. I work for an international engineering firm & we hire/fire contract labour as workload demands. On a large plant outage for repairs/inspection, the state of the messrooms, toilets etc. from 600-900 manual labourers has to be seen/smelt to be believed. I would balk at the sight of it but she (and others) cleaned these places without a second thought. At a works dance, when shunned by other 'higher rank' individuals we invited her & spouse to sit at our table. Cleaning ladies have my utmost respect & that journalist should feel flattered rather than insulted!! |
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18 Apr 07 - 08:06 AM (#2028760) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Azizi I believe that comments about the dignity of the cleaning woman job are missing the point of Imus' put down of Gwen Ifill. Here's the cultural context of that diss, as I see it: You will note that shock jock Don Imus didn't make a general statement putting down all females who work as cleaning women. I believe that it is also significant that Imus also didn't make a blanket comment that all Black female journalists are "cleaning women". For example, Imus didn't say that CNN's light skinned, slender {naurally} straight haired African American journalist/anchor woman Suzanne Malveau was a "cleaning woman who covered the White House". Imus specifically referred to the dark brown skinned, full figured {naturally} nappy headed PBS journalist/anchor woman Gwen Ifill as "the cleaning lady who covers the White House". In doing so, Imus was using coded language to comment on the fact that it's a cultural disconnect to see women who look like Gwen Ifill in such a respected role as being a journalist who covers the White House. Imus may have also been trying to put Ifill {back} in her place. In that recent radio broadcast which caused him to be fired, Imus "coon talk" in referring to Black members of Rutgers' female basketball team as "nappy headed hos" and "jigabos" and "grizzles". I've seen photos of these women and all of them are dark brown skinned. But in that same now infamous radio broadcast, Imus and his producer described the Black women on the championship winning Tennessee women basketball team as cute. I've never seen photos of these women, but I betcha that at least some of them are lighter skinned than the women who are on the Rutger's team. Imus' comments dissing Gwen Ifill are rooted in the same racism as his comments dissing the physical appearances of Black members of Rutger's women's basketball team while speaking favorable of the physical appearance of Black members of Tennesse women's basketall team. Each of these comments come from the racist imagery and expectations of Black people that permeate American print, movie, and television mass media. It may be instructive for folks here to read Don Bogle's 1992 book Toms, Coons. Bucks, and Mammies.. Here's an excerpt from a review of that book: "The title of the book indicates the different mythic types that have been used in mainstream U.S. films to depict black people, and which are easily mistaken as being aspects of real black experience. Briefly the different types can be described as follows: Toms, a good negro character who submissively does everything expected of them, however degrading, and never turns on white people. Often they end up as saintly role models. Coons, are a source of amusement because they are complete buffoons. There are two variants of this type; 1, the pickaninny being a black child whose eyes pop and plays about in a diverting manner; 2, the uncle remus, who is as saintly as the tom type, but he tends to be quaint, naive and comic in his philosophical assertions. As Bogle notes: 'The pure coons emerged as no-account niggers, those unreliable, crazy, lazy, subhuman creatures good for nothing more than eating watermelons, stealing chickens, shooting crap, or butchering the English language.' Mulattoes, are usually tragic fair-skinned women who live as a white person, but have the secret of black blood in their veins. It is ironic that such characters were usually played by white actresses so that there were no problems for the white audiences' identification with her traumas. Mammies, are similar to the coons, but she is fiercely independent in her domestic domain. A good example of this role is in Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House (1948). It is the mammy (Louise Beavers) who gives Mr. Blandings (Cary Grant) the advertising slogan that saves his job, house and family, and all she gets is a $10 rise! Bucks, constitute the brutal black man out to cause havoc. Often the savage and violent character is also over-sexed and eager to get more than his hands on white women." |
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18 Apr 07 - 08:08 AM (#2028763) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Azizi Fwiw, in my last post I found at least one sentence that needs correction: In that recent radio broadcast which caused him to be fired, Imus used "coon talk" to refer to Black members of Rutgers' female basketball team as "nappy headed hos" and "jigabos" and "grizzles". |
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18 Apr 07 - 09:10 AM (#2028803) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Riginslinger But on Meet the Press, Gwen Ifil herself said that what really got the plug pulled on the show were all the middle management people of color who complained to their bosses and board members, and managed to carry the day for insider corporate opinion. She went on to say that what was different now than when Imus insulted her ten years ago was, "Ten years ago those people weren't there." All of that goes to show that affirmative action has done its thing. It's time to end it now. White kids should no longer have to ride in the back of the bus when it comes to college enrollment and job applications. |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM (#2028861) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: frogprince "Bucks, constitute the brutal black man out to cause havoc" I'm a northerner, from Minnesota; I had never heard anyone I know use the term "black buck", or "buck" meaning a black person. I've heard it quite a bit for young male American Indians. I don't mean in any way to be saying "southerners racist/northerner not". I just mention that specific point about language to preface the following: A few years ago, I picked up the crossword in the Flint, Michigan newspaper. One of the clues was, "a black buck". I actually missed the implication completely, and asked myself "a black buck of what kind of animal?". I picked up my wife's crossword dictionary, and found an answer that fit, apparently an archaic term for a young black man that I have never heard of before or since. I strongly suspect it was primarily slave-market terminology. I've kicked myself repeatedly since because I didn't register a complaint about the appearance of that crap in a modern newspaper. |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:41 AM (#2028898) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Scoville Could it have been a blackbuck antelope? This is not a native North American animal but it is raised in captivity here to a limited extent; I think the name comes from the dark coloring + "buck" meaning a male deer-type animal. One of our clients at my first vet tech job raised them. I don't hear "cleaning lady" used regularly as a colloquial insult here but in Texas it sometimes carries the implication that the person in question is Latina and probably here illegally. It's not a given, though; most often it just means that that's what she does for a living; it depends a lot on the context. I know plenty of legal immigrants and native-born ladies who clean and it's a perfectly respectable job. I'm sure Imus has cleaning ladies. I hope they all quit and make him scrub his own toilets for awhile. With his tongue, ideally. I used the be a dishwasher myself. Nothing wrong with that job, either. |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:49 AM (#2028903) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself I don't think 'cleaning lady' is a standard insult anywhere, but in the context Imus used it, it was an insult. |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:56 AM (#2028918) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Riginslinger Personally, I like Gwen Ifil, but I don't think it would have been an insult if she didn'l kind of look like Aunt Jamima. |
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18 Apr 07 - 11:29 AM (#2028965) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace At last, the cheap humour part of the thread. |
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18 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM (#2029015) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Humour ... ? Was that supposed to be humour? Is the idea of someone looing like Aunt Jemima supposed to be funny? Help me out here, people ... |
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18 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM (#2029022) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace It's humour written by an inbred idiot with two eyes on one side of his nose. Maybe not humour as you know it, but it serves as such for him. |
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18 Apr 07 - 12:40 PM (#2029025) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Riginslinger "Is the idea of someone looking like Aunt Jemima supposed to be funny?" There is nothing funny about the likeness, it was just that it was more of a cutting insult from Imus to say what he said about Gwen Ifil. If he said the same thing about Britney Spears it wouldn't make sense. |
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18 Apr 07 - 01:27 PM (#2029076) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Okay, so basically what Azizi was saing ... but I think Aunt Jemima is best left out of the equation ... |
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18 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM (#2029082) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Donuel Everyone posting on this thread is a racist. That is perfectly OK The Imus incident allows the topic of racism to surface in a national dialog. Even if you have not written anything resembling a racist attitude or opinion, if you are white in this country you have had certain silent allowances and lattitudes that black people are not priviledged to have. For that reason alone, those of us who do not consider ourselves racist are still compliant in racism even when we are not aware of it. |
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18 Apr 07 - 02:30 PM (#2029123) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Q (Frank Staplin) Next time you are in the grocery store, look at the modern Aunt Jemima on the pancake mix of that name (it won (2006) the Chefs Best taste award. Excellent for waffles, too. She also is pictured on Aunt Jemima syrup. Quaker Oats Products. The picture reminds me of Gwen Ifel. |
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18 Apr 07 - 02:31 PM (#2029127) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Donuel The president of Iran reminds me of Bush |
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18 Apr 07 - 06:21 PM (#2029326) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Azizi There's a lot of Black women who look like the drawing of Aunt Jemima that is on the pancake mix. And, with a multicultural approach to physical beauty, these full figured dark skinned Black women can be considered just as beautiful as slender White women with blond hair. |
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18 Apr 07 - 08:57 PM (#2029467) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Stilly River Sage Gwen Ifill Current Aunt Jemima and here's another on corn meal. |
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18 Apr 07 - 09:26 PM (#2029493) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself And they're both fine looking women. I guess I must have that "multicultural approach to physical beauty", because I'd say so is this one. And this one too, even if her dental work isn't up to modern standards. (Here's after a trip to the dentist). |
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18 Apr 07 - 09:36 PM (#2029501) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST Shit woman .... You either make the news Or...youse read the news.
Get Over It ...or get therapy! |
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18 Apr 07 - 09:40 PM (#2029506) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Um ... that's an interesting comment, GUEST ... Okay, let's move on. Who's next? |
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18 Apr 07 - 09:49 PM (#2029516) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,XXX In necessity the "NEWS" was always available.
The standard of USA preference Sear's Roebuck Catalogue was usually, the article at hand.
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18 Apr 07 - 09:50 PM (#2029517) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Azizi Fwiw, here's some info on how people throughout the ages and in different cultures have considered gap teeth: "...Over the years I've heard different stories and tales about this trait: A gap in your teeth is the sign of Venus - the goddess of love! I've been told. Being gap-toothed was regarded as a sign of a strongly-sexed nature in the Middle Ages as told in The Wife of Bath's Prologue and Tale from "The Canterbury Tales" by Geoffrey Chaucer. In some African tribes having a gap in your front teeth was a sign of wisdom and in France they call it "les dents du bonheur" (teeth of happiness)! There was even a film made by Les Blank in 1987 called Gap-Toothed Women, which explores different connotations of gap-teeth such as a beauty mark or as a sign of an amorous nature. I've also heard that it's a sign of wealth, now, I don't know about that one! but, perhaps if we could ask some well known and not so well known gap-toothed celebrities they would agree." http://www.luckygap.co.uk/ {a website for folks with gaps in their front teeth} -snip- The good thing about not using only one standard of physical beauty is that folks don't have to agree on what constitutes beauty. |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:08 PM (#2029528) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,XXX Come OFF IT!!!!
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18 Apr 07 - 10:19 PM (#2029534) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Oh, my, we're getting quite a few interesting comments this evening, aren't we? Okay, re: gap-toothed. It looks to me like the woman in the pic is actually MISSING a tooth, rather than just being gap-toothed. I could be wrong though. I'm also wondering if it just happens to be a photo of a box on which some kid with a marker blacked-out one of her teeth ... ? |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:20 PM (#2029537) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace Maybe the management could find some way to prevent Guests from posting in BS? We all know who THIS fuckwit is, but why do we have to keep reading his terrible spelling, bad diction and poor humour? |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:21 PM (#2029538) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace That post was in reference to Guest XXX. Off his meds and unable to spell his usual name. |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:21 PM (#2029539) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Sorcha Thank you Zi, I agree. Whoever that is up there can go fly kites in his own wind. Maybe the gap between my mother's teeth explains why she and dad were each other's first, last and only for over 40 years til dad died? Smile...and my mom was one of the worlds kindest, gentlest, caring souls I've ever known and she said... 'You know, sis (to me) I never thought I was prejudiced, but when you were dating (a black man) I was terrified that you would marry him. I guess because then your babies wouldn't really ever look like your dad or me, or any others of our family.' She also told me once that she knew it was irrational but she was very afraid of black men, especially when meeting a large black man on the street, either daylight or dark, but mostly after dark. This, from a woman whose next door neighbors for years were a very large black man, his white wife and their two beautiful children. I didn't know any of this at that time...it was only years and years later that mom confessed. Ya gotta admit, she tried. |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:23 PM (#2029541) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Well, I just had a look at the photo of the gent on the gap-tooth site, and now I'm thinking that our smiling aunt may well be gap-toothed ... |
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18 Apr 07 - 10:44 PM (#2029557) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Q (Frank Staplin) Nancy Green, the first Aunt Jemima. Born a slave, found as a 'cleaning lady,' signed a contract, featured at the World's Fair, Chicago, 1893. Her successors described here: Jemimas Now who was the joker who gap-toothed Jemima? |
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19 Apr 07 - 01:13 AM (#2029663) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Bert ...Everyone posting on this thread is a racist... You've gotta be kidding! That is a stupid sweeping statement. In fact I don't know that anyone posting on this thread is a racist. I'm not, and I know that katlaughing isn't, Sorcha isn't, Azizi definately isn't, Skipy isn't, Peace certainly isn't, so who did you mean exactly? |
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19 Apr 07 - 03:03 AM (#2029710) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Rowan Traditional practice in some groups of Australian indigenous people had it that a male wasn't adult unless he'd had his upper incisors "evulsed", ie knocked out, as part of his rite of passage from childhood. More visible, perhaps than circumcision or subincision, which was also practised. You weren't acceptable (read "beautiful") without the gap. On the original topic, Rutherford (the one instrumental in the development of atomic theory) once, famously, told one of his postgrad students "If you can't explain your research to the cleaning lady you don't understand it yourself." I've always regarded the story as a canard on cleaning ladies. As it happens, in post-WWII Oz we got lots of "Displaced Persons" from Europe and other refugees among our immigrants. Many were extremely well qualified in various fields but their qualifications were routinely dismissed unless they came from Oxbridge; none of them was called Werner von Braun. More than once, the story around physics departments was that a postgrad would be tearing their hair out trying to solve some intractable problem in the wee small hours and would be given a suggestion by the cleaner; the postgrad's supervisor would be informed about the suggestion, respond that it was "Brilliant" and ask how the student thought of it, to be told the cleaner had suggested it. Subsequent interview of the cleaner would reveal that he (occasionally "she") had been a leader in the field, pre War, in some Eastern European university. Now apocryphal, the story was probably true in one occasion and I've used it (and the Lord Rutherford one) routinely as reminders to students and academics alike. And I think I can refute any accusation of racism made by the uninformed, and even those made by the informed. Cheers, Rowan |
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19 Apr 07 - 07:32 AM (#2029825) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Azizi Sorcha, 'fear of large Black men" is deeply rooted in American culture. Perhaps your mother considered the large Black man who lived next door to your family to be an exception to the rule. Perhaps not. However, in my opinion that does not negate the fact that you and others-probably including the interracial couple and their children-found your mother to be a kind, gentle, caring soul. With regard to your mother's belief that if you had married and had children by a Black man, the children would not look like you- perhaps your mother's fear of large Black men made it difficult for her to see that regardless of the color of their skin, children born to interracial couples look like one or both of their parents. Or they have the features of another {or other} family members from either side of their family. Or-as is the case with children who are born to same race couples, sometimes the children just look like themselves. Some years ago, I remember seeing a movie called "The Last Starfighter". Perhaps it wasn't intended, but the point that I got from that movie was that life was like a video game. When you finally mastered one level of challenges to the extent that what you encounter ceases to be challenging anymore, a more difficult level pops up and you have to strive to master that level too. And so on and so on and so on until we reach the other side and perhaps have to work through even more levels. All that to say that I certainly will not judge what your mother learned or did not learn from this life. Best wishes, Azizi |
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19 Apr 07 - 07:35 AM (#2029826) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Azizi Correction- re the features of children born to interracial families, I should have said- "Or they have the features of another {or other} family members from either side or both sides of their family." |
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19 Apr 07 - 09:24 AM (#2029887) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself "I'm not, and I know that katlaughing isn't, Sorcha isn't, Azizi definately isn't, Skipy isn't, Peace certainly isn't, so who did you mean exactly?" Well - that leaves me, I guess! |
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19 Apr 07 - 12:39 PM (#2030114) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Q (Frank Staplin) Well, meself, I wasn't included with the isn'ts, so maybe I'm the one that's left. This thread has wandered from topic to topic, so I might as well add to the stew. When did Rastus disappear from the mass circulation magazines such as Colliers, Saturday Evening Post, etc.? He was from the servant class as well, so maybe he belongs here. Aunt Jemima has survived, in her various forms, for over a century, but Rastus disappeared (Incidentally Aunt Jemima ceramic salt and pepper shakers and pitchers are much sought after by collectors). Rastus advertised Cream of Wheat, a cereal that continues on the market, but without an iconic figure. Here is the message from a full color full page Cream of Wheat adv. that appeared in 1921 in a magazine I have preserved. Rastus, a pleasantly smiling (unthreatening) black cook, is shown in chef's hat, white jacket and blue bow tie with little red figures. He is smiling, a small gap in his teeth, and holding a large school slate which bears this message, printed in chalk: "Maybe Cream of Wheat ain't got no vitamines. I don't know what them things is. If they's bugs they ain't none in Cream of Wheat but she's sho' good to eat and cheap. Costs 'bout 1 cent fo' a great big dish." signed, Rastus (Painting by Edw. V. Brewer for Cream of Wheat Co. Copyright 1921 by Cream of Wheat Co.) |
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19 Apr 07 - 04:19 PM (#2030338) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Don(Wyziwyg)T I wasn't mentioned either. I'm not a racist in any sense of the word, unless tabloid journalists and gutter media hacks are officially a race. Don T. |
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19 Apr 07 - 04:37 PM (#2030354) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Jean(eanjay) I've just come back to this thread. I've tried to read everything posted since I last visited. Why does racism seem to come into everything? What's it got to do with cleaning ladies? |
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19 Apr 07 - 04:54 PM (#2030389) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Take another look at Azizi's post of 18 Apr 07 - 08:06 AM. |
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19 Apr 07 - 05:43 PM (#2030451) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Q (Frank Staplin) At the airport in Calgary, the 'cleaning ladies' are Sikh men (or were the last time I was there). Doing an excellent job. |
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19 Apr 07 - 07:49 PM (#2030547) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Riginslinger And would Imus ask the question: "Do the Sikhs keep their dust clothes on their heads, where it's handy?" |
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19 Apr 07 - 08:00 PM (#2030561) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Very likely, I'm afraid. Don T. |
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19 Apr 07 - 08:25 PM (#2030582) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Q (Frank Staplin) Or Borat whatever his name is. |
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19 Apr 07 - 10:59 PM (#2030677) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself And would someone else ask the question, "Was Riginslinger trying to sneak in a potentially-offensive joke by disguising it as a statement of disapproval of Imus?" |
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19 Apr 07 - 11:26 PM (#2030688) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Mike Miller Ok, here is why "cleaning lady", "dish washer", "ditch digger", clerk, and "menial" don't get the respect that "doctor","lawyer", :banker" do. Those first named positions are, as a rule, not the first choice of those who practice those trades. They are,for many, jobs that offer neither fulfillment nor wealth. It's not just the money, by the way. Artists are more respected because, even if they are not very successful, they are being fulfilled and their lives are rich. Of course, one can find fulfilment in menial work but most menial workers do it because it is the best paying job they could get. You want equal respect for all workers? Join a kibbutz, that's where you will find it. |
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19 Apr 07 - 11:31 PM (#2030691) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Thanks, I don't think any of us ever thought of that before. Joining a kibbutz, that is. |
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19 Apr 07 - 11:50 PM (#2030701) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace Oy vey! |
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19 Apr 07 - 11:54 PM (#2030705) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace Mike, I have zero respect for bankers. I wish they'd find honest work instead of shilling for bigger bankers. I have infinitely more respect for the man who takes the garbage away. |
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20 Apr 07 - 12:30 AM (#2030720) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Bert Just because 'because it is the best paying job they could get.' doesn't preclude them from performing the job with pride and doing the best that they can. The person who cleans the toilets in a company is probably the most important employee that the company has. Providing a clean healthy environment for everyone in the company from the CEO down. So what's wrong with Azizi's post, GUEST meself? She is just stating things as she sees them. Just making us aware of other's racism doesn't make her a racist. If she were, then she wouldn't be on Mudcat sharing her culture will all of us Honkies. |
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20 Apr 07 - 12:46 AM (#2030726) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself Did I say there was anything wrong with Azizi's post? Did I say Azizi is a racist? Someone asked what racism has to do with cleaning ladies, and I told her to re-read Azizi's post - which was all about what racism has to do with cleaning ladies, in the context of the insult that prompted the thread. So - you misinterpreted my post. No harm done. I've misinterpreted posts before ... |
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20 Apr 07 - 12:51 AM (#2030728) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Bert Sorry about that. Yes I misunderstood your post. |
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20 Apr 07 - 12:57 AM (#2030729) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace Honkies? WHERE? |
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20 Apr 07 - 01:00 AM (#2030730) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace Bert, memyself, allow me to introduce you two dudes. Bert, this is memyself; memyself, this is Bert. You are both gonna remember this moment, because I want to tell you that there are HONKIES HERE! |
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20 Apr 07 - 07:24 AM (#2030873) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Azizi I recognize that this thread-and Mudcat itself-is definitely not the Azizi show. Some folks may think that I'm trying to focus attention on myself, but I feel the need to say what I'm going to say. So spite of the possibility of negative responses, here goes: First, let me say this: meself, I understood the intent of your 19 Apr 07 - 04:54 PM comment. ** Bert, thanks for your support as noted in your 20 Apr 07 - 12:30 AM post ** meself, with regard to your 19 Apr 07 - 10:59 PM post, I agree. ** Peace, [here's an example of my Virgo nit picking-you introduced Bert to someone who isn't posting on this thread. You said "memyself" when actually the poster's name is "meself". I've been prone to make the same mistake, so I've taken to copying his {or her} name from a post to make sure I'm spelling it right. And as for Bert and you calling folks "honkies", better you both than me :o} ** Now I'd like to comment about Bert's statement that I'm not a racist because if I were I wouldn't be on Mudcat sharing my culture: I don't believe that I'm a racist. However, it's possible for a person who is Black to be a racist and still share their culture with non-Black people. Those two aren't mutually exclusive. I think the determining factors are why & how a person shares her or his culture with others. Besides, sharing information about their cultures is what Mudcatters do. It's true that I talk about race a lot on Mudcat. I believe that if there were more Black people who post here, I wouldn't have to mention race as much as I do. Not too long ago, I received a pm from someone who said that s/he is Black but never mentions that fact on Mudcat. I regret that, but I can't walk in another person's shoes. But-for the record-there have been numerous occassions on Mudcat in which I've learned something about African American culture from non-African American people. For example, if you're interested, see this thread thread.cfm?threadid=78209#1402189 Feelin The Blues Also, there have been a number of times in which I've posted comments and started threads that have nothing what so ever to do with race or ethnicity. For example, if you're interested see my all time favorite Mudcat thread thread.cfm?threadid=87517 BS: Sponge Bob dead on Xmas eve And here's two more examples of my starting threads and posting comments that don't refer to race/ethnicity: thread.cfm?threadid=92459&messages=509 BS: Name That Mudcatter; and thread.cfm?threadid=80317#1461814 BS: Lucky Charms But more to the point of why I post on Mudcat, I do so because I like to do so. I like to express myself. And I like to be around people who are often considerate, interesting, and witty. I post on Mudcat because I like being around folks who are intelligent, intellectually stimulating, and eclectic. Of course, I believe that I share all of these positive descriptors. :o) I post on Mudcat because I love exchanging information with and learning from people who share the same or similar interests with me {such as an interest in the origins & meanings of words and the source materials for songs}. I post on Mudcat because I choose to. ** I apologize for the length of this post. Best wishes to all and to all a good day. Azizi |
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20 Apr 07 - 07:36 AM (#2030887) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: bobad FYI The word honky as a term for whites derives from bohunk and hunky. In the early 1900's, these were derogatory terms for Bohemian, Hungarian, and Polish immigrants. According to Robert Hendrickson, author of the Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins, Black workers in Chicago meat-packing plants picked up the term from white workers and began applying it indiscriminately to all Caucasians. Honky was later adopted as a pejorative meaning white in 1967 by black militants within SNCC seeking a rebuttal for the term nigger. They settled on a familiar word they felt was disparaging to certain Americans of European descent; hunkie meaning an American of Slavic or Hungarian descent.[1][2] The word 'honkie' was also used in the early to mid 1900's to describe a rich, white man searching for a black hooker. White men would be terrified to enter the actual ghettos so they would honk their horns where they felt safe. Since only rich people drove cars then, black prostitutes knew a honking horn meant a rich payday. Therefore, the word 'honkie' came to fruition.[citation needed] In Australasia a person of Hong Kong origin is categorised as a Honky. Wikipedia |
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20 Apr 07 - 09:44 AM (#2031029) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Mike Miller I, too, respect all workers. My years in Kibbutz taught me that much. But, the fact remains, most bankers are pleased with their lot and most menials are not. If they were allowed to trade jobs, more menials would trade than their banker brethren. Some jobs are classified as entry-level because most people don't want to stay in them for their entire careers. Little girls used to dream of becoming ballerinas or nurses. In more enlightened times, they aspire to careers in the arts, the sciences, politics, business, just about anything they like. I doubt that many little girls dream of a life as a professional floor washer. Hey, I could be wrong. I'll ask my daughter. |
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20 Apr 07 - 10:30 AM (#2031090) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: GUEST,meself 'Peace, [here's an example of my Virgo nit picking-you introduced Bert to someone who isn't posting on this thread. You said "memyself" when actually the poster's name is "meself".' Just to add to the general confusion: Peace is using an earlier incarnation of my handle - I was going by "memyself" until an otherwise troublesome person in the course of a sputtering post began addressing me as "meself" - whether that was just a slip or a deliberate attempt to corrupt my name I don't know, but I decided I preferred it, and started using it. You know, just like teenage girls always try out various spellings and other variations on their names before finally settling on the one they feel they can live with ... 'Since only rich people drove cars then, black prostitutes knew a honking horn meant a rich payday. Therefore, the word 'honkie' came to fruition.[citation needed]' "Citation needed" indeed. Sounds like classic 'fakelore' to me. But on the subject of "honky": It's always struck me that - Azizi can correct me if I'm wrong - Black people have never collectively embraced a truly demeaning term for White people - perhaps some of the militants alluded to above hoped that would happen, but it seems to me that "honky" is generally spoken with more of a smirk than a sneer. And I never got the sense that it was really widely used - again, Azizi's take on that would be welcome ... ! |
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20 Apr 07 - 11:23 AM (#2031143) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Peace Guest, meself, you nailed it. Sorry about the confusion. Also, the Honkie ststements were a takeoff on either a Dick Gregory or Godfrey Cambridge skit in which the comedian--after being called ni##er-- looked around with a wild and scared glare in his eye and yelled, "WHERE?" This thread has run its course for me. Have a good life all. |
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20 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM (#2031282) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Q (Frank Staplin) Added footnote: 'Honky' as a perjorative is earlier than 1967- Mezzrow, in Mezzrow and White, 1946, "Really Blues"; possibly- since he may have been referring to 'Hunkies;' "Man, I'm down with it, stickin' like a honky." In 1958, the film "Defiant Ones," "[You're a] nigger...I'm a honky. You don't have to argue me out of it." 1967- "Time," Aug. 4.: Damning Lyndon Johnson for sending "honky" cracker federal troops into Negro communities to kill Black people, Brown called the president "a wild, mad dog, an outlaw from Texas..." No relation to the old western American word honkatonk or honkytonk (1894 or earlier). Above quotes from Lighter, "Historical Dictionary of American Slang," vol. 1. |
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20 Apr 07 - 02:26 PM (#2031340) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Riginslinger "'1967- "Time," Aug. 4.: Damning Lyndon Johnson for sending "honky" cracker federal troops into Negro communities to kill Black people, Brown called the president "a wild, mad dog, an outlaw from Texas..."'" Funny to see Lyndon Johnson portrayed this way. We're used to seeing him held up as the champion of the American Black. |
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20 Apr 07 - 03:30 PM (#2031392) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Actually, I' perfectly happy when my black friends call me "Cueball". You see, I know they are joking and there's no malicious intent. I would never dream of calling any of them by that n word tho', as I don't believe that can ever fail to offend. Doesn't matter. I have plenty other nicknames, arising out of our mutual memories, to choose from. It works as long as both sides of the equation balance. Ain't maths wonderful. Don T. |
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20 Apr 07 - 11:48 PM (#2031689) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: Rowan bobad wrote "In Australasia a person of Hong Kong origin is categorised as a Honky." and (I suspect) cited Wikipedia as the source. Curious. "Australasia" encompasses New Zealand (where I've not yet spent much time) and a few other parts outside Oz but I don't think I've ever come across the word outside references to American race culture. If an Australian wished to be offensive to them, people of Hong Kong origin were more likely to be called "Chinks" (n.) or "Chinky" (adj.) but I haven't seen or heard either word used (outside formal discussions of lore) since my youth. And, to get back to the original question, Bert's "Just because 'because it is the best paying job they could get.' doesn't preclude them from performing the job with pride and doing the best that they can." expresses, more clearly than I did, what I meant when I wrote "If my destiny is to be a beggar I must try as hard as possible to be the best I can." Cheers, Rowan |
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21 Apr 07 - 02:04 PM (#2032076) Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult From: robomatic mg point well taken One of my life models was my grandfather's cleaning lady, who I think taught me the term 'elbow grease' and used ammonia on pretty much everything! |
