BS: Out of body experiences

07 Sep 08 - 08:37 PM (#2433706)
Subject: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jane of 'ull

I have these periodically and I don't like them, it frightens me. Does anyone else have them? why do they happen? do they scare you? Can you stop them? Jane x

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07 Sep 08 - 08:44 PM (#2433711)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: SINSULL

Yes. No. Yes,
i am tired of being laughed at over this one.

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07 Sep 08 - 09:07 PM (#2433729)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

So, can you describe the experience briefly, Jane? Do you see your own body from a vantage point outside it? And are you conscious of having a separate "spirit" body when that happens?

I haven't had such an experience, but I see no reason to scoff at someone else saying they did.

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07 Sep 08 - 09:13 PM (#2433735)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Sandy Mc Lean

Shirley MacLaine had a great documentary on this subject. The human mind, being the free spirit that it is, escapes the physical body.
Many times I have experienced phenomena that I can not explain so I am no sceptic. Please pass on some detail.

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07 Sep 08 - 09:15 PM (#2433737)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jane of 'ull

No, actually I have never 'seen' my own body, just feel myself floating up and out of it and back down again. I get a lot of the other classic signs of OBE - a feeling of intense buzzing and vibrating in my head and body, and its always dark when its happening so I guess its happening in real time.

I have night terrors too and vivid dreams, which could be related.

It's funny because I used to be into spiritualist stuff years ago, and would liked to have had an OBE then, indeed I think I tried - but now as a non-believer they are involuntarily happening. I've been on a few forums dedicated to the subject but they are preoccupied with people who like having them, or want to have them but are still trying.

I do remember one person I knew years ago who had them and didnt like it. He said that he floated up to the ceiling and tiny specks on the ceiling appeared the size of dustbin lids. thats pretty scary.

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07 Sep 08 - 09:41 PM (#2433747)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Well, it's a good bet that resisting them as hard as you can will not settle the issue for you.

It might be more worthwhile to try and experience them calmly and practice deciding where to view from, or be, at will, rather than just waiting for some impulse to bounce you in or out.

If the dreams are related it is because of the decision that they are related, a matter of perceptions being associated, not because (probably) there is an actual connection in the "now" to terror.

You will get all kinds of opinions, yes, trying to assess them for you or invalidate them for you or whatever. Don't let the noise throw you off making up your own mind.

A

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07 Sep 08 - 10:00 PM (#2433755)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

I've had 2 relatives who had out of body experiences. One when she was quite ill and in danger of dying. Another when he was totally exhausted and very discouraged about his life. In both of those cases they had the feeling of moving entirely out of the body and looking down on it from some distance above it. In both cases they said that their body looked very weak and fragile and ill, but that they themselves felt absolutely fine outside of it...to the point where they were a bit reluctant to descend back into it.

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08 Sep 08 - 12:04 AM (#2433794)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

Twice. Once when I almost died (actuallt DID die but they got me back) on an operating table and another when I met an 'angel'. I don't discuss the experiences for the same reason as SINS. Too many closed-minded people around who would say on the internet what they wouldn't say to yer face.

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08 Sep 08 - 12:10 AM (#2433796)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

Yep, same here. I was bleeding out when my third child was born. The docs couldn't get an IV started, my veins were collapsing. As an EMT, I knew what that meant. I went right out, hovered above and watched as they worked on me. Wanting to be with my preemie baby and two older children kept me from letting go altogether.

There have been other times, but none so dramatic.

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08 Sep 08 - 12:18 AM (#2433798)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Alice

Back in 1980, not long after my parents died, I was appointed to a task force to create a report for the governor on the subject of the energy crisis and low and fixed income consumers. We would meet once a month in different parts of the state, spending 2 days discussing the issue. One month we met at a resort hotel between Butte and Anaconda at the location of a natural warm springs, called Fairmont. I was very excited that night about the progress I was able to bring to the project that day.

I was staying on the second floor of the hotel, and each room had large glass doors that opened to a balcony. That night I woke up and floated out through the glass, feeling the resistance of the metal frame of the door, as I passed through it to the outside. I was looking down and saw yellow lines. At first I could not figure out what I was seeing, then realized it was the yellow lines painted for the parking places in the parking lot. I realized I was outside looking at the steam from the pond, and as soon as I thought, I wonder if I could reach my mother from here, I was back inside and in my bed.

The oddest thing for me now is that almost 30 years later, I spend weeks at a time living in that hotel, sometimes staying in that same room, as I work a couple months a year in Butte for a company that provides my lodging at that hotel out in the country.

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08 Sep 08 - 01:37 AM (#2433820)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: ClaireBear

I have had what I perceive to be OBEs -- like you, not above my body, but floating around the room, the house, or occasionally the neighborhood -- but in my case they always occur in conjunction with hypnopompic/hypnagogic hallucinations and sleep paralysis.

These are fascinatingly odd experiences that are extreme and terrifying when they happen. (Mine, for example, were so bad I was convinced I was being held down and violated nightly by a malevolent spirit. I couldn't move, and I couldn't wake up...every time I thought I HAD woken up it turned out I was just in another "layer" of the hallucination. The only way I could overcome them -- and I didn't even figure this defense out for years -- was to muster the strength to "break through" mentally and call on the four elements [or God, if you will] to surround me with protection.)

Happily these are now rare or even in the past for me. Perhaps menopause has its advantages after all...

I suggest you look those phenomena up and see if they perchance bear any resemblance to your night terrors. If so, I'd be happy to tell you more, and I know there are other Catters who've had them too.

Claire

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08 Sep 08 - 04:52 AM (#2433859)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: kendall

Once. During meditation I found myself soaring in outer space. It was delightful, but there was a thread attached to me and the earth. Suddenly, I thought, "Hell! this is impossible" and immediately I was back to earth. I haven't tried it since.

"A wise man is never sure of anything."

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08 Sep 08 - 05:24 AM (#2433870)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jean(eanjay)

Does anyone else have them? why do they happen? do they scare you? Can you stop them?

I've experienced sleep paralysis and that is absolutely terrifying.

I have lucid dreams and they don't scare me because I can change what's happening and since I have suffered "bad" dreams every night for years I don't worry about having a bad dream.

I did experience something a bit like an OBE (although it may not have been that, I really am not sure) when I was in a state of extreme exhaustion and serious stress; I couldn't possibly have stopped it but it didn't scare me, although it did bother me because of the situation I was in at the time and the feeling of loss of control. As a result of this I imagine (but I don't know) that an OBE can get people through very serious situations such as "near death" or total nervous breakdown.

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08 Sep 08 - 05:26 AM (#2433872)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Wolfgang

Such experiences are more common than some would like to think. And though they are not fully understood there is more known about them than some would like to think.

Related phenomena are near death experiences and autoscopy (and doppelgaenger phenomena).

Usually, the subjectively perceived position of the "I" is within the body (mostly above the waist though no necessarily inside the head). Under some conditions (lack of oxygen, medication, meditation, some states of sleep, neural stimuation, brain tumor, extremely high arousal etc...)the body scheme of the brain breaks down and the "I" s perceived subjectively to be outside of the onfines of the body.

The way I can induced that perception in me would be extreme sleep deprivation.

By itself, it is not unhealthy or dangerous but it may accompany otherwise dangerous states (near death, e.g., by definition).

Susan Blackmore is a researcher who has experienced this phenomenon herself (if I recall corrrectly under the influence of marihuana) and has written a lot about it from the POV of a brain researcher.

A lot of reasearch is also done in Switzerland. One link to an article is

Out-of-body experience and autoscopy of neurological origin .

Peter Brugger too (also from Switzerland) has often published on such things.

No serious researcher ever has ever scoffed such experiences BTW. Only sometimes some of those who have had such experiences do not like to hear other explanations than those they have made up themselves to explain what has happened to them.

Wolfgang

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08 Sep 08 - 05:48 AM (#2433882)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Wolfgang

The average prevalence of OBEs in the general population is 10 %, BTW.

Wolfgang

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08 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM (#2433940)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work

A few times.... I get a feeling somewhat akin to the description in 'Alice in Wonderland', where she's eaten the mushroom and suddenly her neck is above the treetops.

I feel as if I'm stretching, my neck becomes like a swan's neck, extremely flexible and I can turn round and stare at the top of my own head. I don't think I've ever totally separated, but it's definately not my body I'm in. It's quite relaxing and never scary unless I'm under the influence of prescription drugs - morphine does it to me every time, along with a feeling of panic, nausea and vertigo. I try to avoid morphine for that reason.

Having Pethadine during heart surgery for which I had to be awake but relaxed was interesting. Again, the feeling of stretching out and looking over myself, but this time I was stretching out from the side, like sliding the bottom card off the deck.

I can induce it, but not often. It doesn't scare me often.

LTS

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08 Sep 08 - 08:44 AM (#2434001)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Donuel

I have never run out of body. I normally have just enough body to get me through the week. However my hair sometimes loses its body.
__________________________\


been there done that

Hypnogogic experiences are normal.
The expereience of going to a distant location while in an OBE is rare and can be alarming at first.

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08 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM (#2434064)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

The thing that always puzzles me about such discussion is that the consequences of the event are so often underestimated.

If an OOB is real (and it certainly seems real to those experincing them) the entire Darwinian model of human beingts (and maybe many other classes of beings, as well) is erroneous in respect to identifying the complex body system as its own owner, rather than merely a vehicle.

IF the model IS incorrect in this regard it opens up a really interesting slew of questions about what the nature of this "I" is. The understandable impulse to consider it as merely a stressed projection from gray matter does not seem to add up consistently. This leaves the notion that a non-corporeal component capable of external existence, but usually not exterior unde rnormal conditions, is in fact the "I" behind all the subsystems of cognitive process, where the seat of intention and perception lies.

Seems to me it is reasonable to assert that there is a great deal about this that is not known and that must (if things are as they seem in regard to this) severely extend and re-center the model of what it ias to be a human.


A

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08 Sep 08 - 10:25 AM (#2434082)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

I was thinking something similar--although not in such excellent English.




"The force that through the green fuse drives the flower   
by Dylan Thomas


The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees
Is my destroyer.
And I am dumb to tell the crooked rose
My youth is bent by the same wintry fever.

The force that drives the water through the rocks
Drives my red blood; that dries the mouthing streams
Turns mine to wax.
And I am dumb to mouth unto my veins
How at the mountain spring the same mouth sucks.

The hand that whirls the water in the pool
Stirs the quicksand; that ropes the blowing wind
Hauls my shroud sail.
And I am dumb to tell the hanging man
How of my clay is made the hangman's lime.

The lips of time leech to the fountain head;
Love drips and gathers, but the fallen blood
Shall calm her sores.
And I am dumb to tell a weather's wind
How time has ticked a heaven round the stars.

And I am dumb to tell the lover's tomb
How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm."

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08 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM (#2434111)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

Out of Body experiences have been recreated in the lab. It didn't involve a ghost.

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08 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM (#2434112)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

A slight segue here (What else is new?):

Once I found myself very ill with a high fever. Unable to even think of driving I called my mother to come across town and take me to the emergency room.

While waiting for her, I lay on my bed alongside myself. I talked to the head beside me assuring me that she was coming, to just hang on.

I don't know what my temperature was then but when I got to the ER my temperature reading was 104.4.

So who was this "I" that talked to "me"?

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08 Sep 08 - 11:20 AM (#2434142)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

I would think it was, in fact, you talking to your head. But that's my point.

Cultural ramifications: if people shift from thinking of themselves as bodies who occasionally have spiritual experiences, to thinking of themselves as spiritual beings having corporeal ones, the whole liasma of authoritarian belief systems stands to be brought town like Galloping Gerty, the Tacoma Narrows bridge, in a windstorm of paradigm shifts. For one thing, the field of psychosomatic and psycho-emotional constructs will blow wide open, changing the face of medicine. For another, a second Protestant revolution could well ensue, making people very adamant about their right to define their own sense of ethics and become their own metaphysicians. As research into this field progresses, simple education will take the place of psychiatry. Advertising and political PR methodologies will crumble because people who doscover thier own spiritual centers become much clearer about not being manipulated by mere restimulation and button pushing.

A whole lot of change could spring from this one small difference in paradigm, and I would love to see it.


A

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08 Sep 08 - 11:28 AM (#2434156)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

What he said.

The possibilities are interesting.

I suggested to the mother of a speech-delated child who's on the autism spectrum that instead of talking, why not establish eye contact and think of an oblect from amongst about twenty and bring the object to the mom. No words, no hints with the eyes or body language. After three times bringing the correct object the child said, "No more eyes."

I know this to be fact. How it happened I do not know.

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08 Sep 08 - 11:30 AM (#2434158)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

Had it happen to me, I had a PE from a clot docs brought me back. By the way, you may think it is crap but I listened to a doc on TV who studied these and he was asked if there were lasting problems that the people reported. The doc said they have trouble with watches, batteries go dead. I can't wear a watch with a battery, it dies in 2 months instead of the 2 years it is suppose to. I never understood that until I heard the guy on TV.

abolutely true in my case

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08 Sep 08 - 11:43 AM (#2434172)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

One time at the dentist office when I was a child. I was floating up around the ceiling, looking down at myself and at the dentist working in my mouth.

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08 Sep 08 - 11:44 AM (#2434174)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

Oh, wow. I just now saw the post before mine. I definitely stop watches.

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08 Sep 08 - 11:47 AM (#2434176)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

by the way, I am quite the religous person. I know some of my language but that is just adjectives in my thinking ;-). I am very religous and more so since I fully believe I saw the other side. I also was able to tell the docs exactly what they did because I watched it out of body. Explain that as just nerves firing. Blew them away. And there is a God and there are angels and there are friends and family there noone will tell me different but to each their own path.

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08 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM (#2434219)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Donuel

While the subject is dangerous, the expereince is not.

A close friend of mine was roobed by two men with shot gun in his apartment.
I heard about it right before bedtime. With my tired eyes closed I saw myself flying over the city to his apartment and hovering below the ceiling. I saw both men's faces and heard their voices.
For this expereince to have any validy to the actual event it would have to be independant of time. It would have to be independant of gravity and a host of other fundamental testbook laws.

As a hypnotist who had been in the papers making various academicly subversive remarks, a polite and kind faced Navy Captain came to my office shortly after my experience of witnessing a robbery from above. He told me he was with Naval Intelligence and that he was looking for people who had remote viewing talents. He asked me if I could do anything like that or if I knew other people who could.

The coincidence of this magnitude sent off klaxon bells in my head.
I felt nothing good would would come from diving headlong into military intelligence experiments.

I lied about my having no experience as well as knowing no one else who had remote expereinces as well.

After reading the Washingtom Post about the sad conflicted expereinces of some of the remote viewers, I am certain I had made the right decision to lie and walk away from a fascinating job.

The budget for military remote viewers was reported to have lasted about 10 years.


If you want to do it, think of a spiral stream made of time. No airplanes no sea kayaks...You are all you need.

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08 Sep 08 - 12:36 PM (#2434226)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Watches go dead on me too. I still have several wrist watches long ago put back in their cases.

It just occurs to me that it has been years, decades even, since I've given a watch a try. Now that I'm older/old I wonder if my condition has changed?

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08 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM (#2434233)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Donuel

Doodling in photoshop is like a recreational OBE vehicle for me.
Last night I went here... http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/stringtheory413.jpg

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08 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM (#2434236)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: john f weldon

I had an out-of-kayak experience once. One minute I was in the kayak, the next I felt myself "floating" behind it. When I told the wife about it, she said "That was real, you dickweed! You're all soaked and muddy! Am I supposed to drive you home in the car like that?"

It's tough living with a skeptic!

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08 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM (#2434246)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

I no longer wear wrist watches because they have that happen to them. Time goes all funny and sooner or later the watch just stops.

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08 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM (#2434255)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

guest above was me, lost my cookies

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08 Sep 08 - 01:20 PM (#2434276)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

IMAGINATION

"Imagination has always had powers of
resurrection that no science can match."

                Ingrid Bengis

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08 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM (#2434280)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

The Guest post is gone now. What did it say?

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08 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM (#2434493)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

(if anyone was waiting for me to weigh in on this thread, I have been avoiding it because you mostly know what I think.
I am a skeptic because there are **perfectly good explanations** for these experiences that do not require postulating metaphysical happenings.
I have had dreams & experiences that are similar...flying & such...but there is NO reason to believe that any non-corporeal part of me can leave the corporeal parts of me.)


further, deponent sayeth not.

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08 Sep 08 - 05:26 PM (#2434538)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

Why would we be waiting for that?

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08 Sep 08 - 05:27 PM (#2434542)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

I've not yet seen anyone explain how someone could report things they couldn't have seen with their corporeal bodies from the perspective of where the corporeal bodies were at the time.

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08 Sep 08 - 05:35 PM (#2434547)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jane of 'ull

Bill D could you tell me where these explanations are? I am a skeptic nowadays and always look for the logical explanation. I would be relieved to find it had a neurological basis or whatever, it would make me feel more safe I guess.

However, I have to admit that these experiences started not long after my nephew died, over 8 years ago. On one 'flight', I recall trying to 'look' for him, but failed to find him. Also, the other night I came out of body 3 times, and the final time, I sensed evil so came back in. I've never experienced that before then.

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08 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM (#2434548)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: skipy

O/k I don't believe in this sort of thing, however, back in 1967 I was working at a large manor house with over 70 horse, in Somerset,long story short I was kicked in the head by a pony whilst rounding a few up (o/k explains a few things) I have to this day a vivid memory of being above the field watching people turn up & carry my "somewhat lifeless body" away & did wake up in Minehead hospital.
My right ear (point of impact) is still thicker to this day. I figure that my mind has put the pictures together to fill the gap.
Skipy

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08 Sep 08 - 06:01 PM (#2434574)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Joybell

A month ago my heart stopped long enough for me to lose consciousness. I have the absolute conviction that the Self that is me went away. A shift in time and space. It didn't see anything. Just deep blackness. I have this understanding that Self is unable to see, hear, feel or reason. It was quite unlike a dream. That part came back, but over the next 24 hours I had the feeling Self would go away again and not come back. I kept myself awake and watchful all night. My heart stopped many times during that 24 hours -- fortunatly also when it was being monitored. I now have a pacemaker. I still feel a bit disconected. Not fearful. Just aware of layers in my mind.
Cheers, Joy

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08 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM (#2434577)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Sorcha

I had one. Audible SNAP...and there I was, floating around. SCARED the crap out of me. Dived headfirst for my poor body. DO NOT want to do it again.

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08 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM (#2434588)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Yeah, it can scare th ebejeezus out of you when it goes off on a sudden like that. And the dive back in is a fairly normal response if its unexpected. It's what you kow.

Bill, you are being disingenuous. I have provided evidence in earlier discussions on this topic of the kind of thing Carol mentions, of people seeing things while outside that they could not see from their bodies.

However, I don't want to disturb your tranquil slumbers; they will be disturbed on their own soon enough. If that does happen, find a place you really like somewhere, and wait there until you get oriented. No sense rushing into things.


A

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08 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM (#2434593)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Jane.. explanations are there if you look for them. Whether you accept them is another matter.

I entered "out of body" and "skeptic" in Google and got a whole list.

this was one of the first

The brain is a VERY complex organ with billions of neurons and billions of memories stored...in varying degrees of completeness, and when not under waking, conscious control, can re-combine and activate all sorts of 'experiences' which seem hard to account for. You can either group OOB stuff with dreams, or decide to create a theoretical realm of dubious substance which has a more 'interesting' sounding set of answers.
There IS no 'proof', one way or another, in these debates, but by choosing the more elaborate metaphysical,OOB type answers, you commit yourself to a set of premises that gets harder & harder to explain, until you, (as seen above) must resort to "I don't know how it works, but I can't imagine how "that" could happen unless it was real!"
A 'brain' answer is not as much fun, but it is being answered better every day by experts who study these things and gradually work out the electro-chemical reactions involved.

In order to consider all possibilities, you have to read all the theories on both sides... I HAVE read the metaphysical side, including the sort of thing Carol C. mentions. Obviously, I am not convinced by those who relate stories about 'seeing' things. That is what being a skeptic means...not denying....just doubting until I see proof...and claims require proof.

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08 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM (#2434600)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Amos... "I have provided evidence in earlier discussions ..."

yes, I know... I read them. I have spent 50 years reading such things. There are quite good reasons why I am not convinced.

Why can YOU see all the good reasons why certain religious tenets and 'experiences' (like Lourdes) are not acceptable, yet buy into these, which are only different in superficial ways? Because you 'had' one?

(I was going to say very little...I was asked directly to suggest other answers)

Boy, am I grumpy today!

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08 Sep 08 - 06:41 PM (#2434615)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

But the assertion wasn't just skepticism, the assertion was that there is a biological explanation for everything such people experience. So if that's the case, I would like to see the biological explanation for how people could see things that their corporeal bodies could not (other than saying that it hasn't been proven that they do... that's not an explanation, it's a denial).

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08 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM (#2434629)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

I don't really care who thinks what about my own experiences with this stuff as long as no one decides to tell me I didn't experience what I experienced--for whatever reasons. I've read about synaptic lag in the response to electro-chemical stimuli; the thinking part getting ahead of the actuality; the--and Bill, none of that convinced me any more than my experience will convince you. The science side of it is as clearly explained as the metaphysical side. They can't duplicte it. IMO, the burden of proof you seek shold be found in the science you prefer, and that's fine.

BM

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08 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM (#2434637)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

There is a world of difference between saying one was healed, and attributes it to Mary, and saying one had an OOB experience, Bill, and I am sure you can sort those differences out for yourself.

There is one commonality though, which is one of the reasons that this whole area is such a tanglefoot. The plasticity of the mind is such that to a large degree, we see what we believe we ought to see. The history of NDEs is replete with tunnels-to-heaven in the Christian mode fgor those of that persuasion, visions of Paradise for Muslims, and for those of a more agnostic bent, just encounters with other beings. I have referred to this phenomenon in several places as "dubbing in", as movie makers do with overlays.

The problem is that a mind under stress, depending on its resilience, flexibility and general "health" will dub in to some degree or other because of stress. Some folks are in such a perpetual state of stress that every car on the road holds an FBI agent or an Alien. Others maintain their perspective until they get a bad knock on the head, and then see childhood friends or stars or something briefly and then recover. It varies completely from person to person but the important point about this is that it happens both to those who are firmly seated inside their skulls, those who are popping out for the first time, and those who move out on a regular basis.

It is therefore not valid to assume that any of those three states (never out, popping out once, or often out of the body) is itself a false perception. There is no more evidence that "inness" is the baseline true state of things than that "being out with one tendril stuck in the center of the brain" is the baseline experience.

Howja like _them_ apples, Horation??? :D


A

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08 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM (#2434654)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"...the assertion was that there is a biological explanation for everything such people experience.

No, I did NOT assert any such thing. I said there ARE such answers which require fewer hypotheses, and are therefore perfectly good possibilities....

Peace... I forgot to say THIS time, (though not in 27 previous posts), that I do NOT reject anyone's personal experience, I only question certain proposed explanations for such experiences!
One had the experience they had!

Whether it was a weird dream, a momentary short circuit of brain synapses...or a real 'spirit' going for a spin without that nuisance of a body, I can't prove either way, but me and Willie of Occam will reserve judgment. One of the side effects of reserving judgment is DOUBT and looking **seriously** at alternatives....and getting accused of **denying** when one is **doubting**.

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08 Sep 08 - 07:27 PM (#2434665)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

The origin of Lourdes, Amos, was 2 girls claiming to 'see' the Virgin Mary. Since we dare not doubt such visions, we get locked into other stuff that follows...and quite a tourism business as folks follow 'hope'.

....and yeah, the "baseline true state of things" might be 12 dimensions and little blue angels on every shoulder, but I seem not to get all the inputs on my faulty receiver. s'pose my brain's a 2nd? where do I complain? to God?

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08 Sep 08 - 07:31 PM (#2434672)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

The assertion was that there are perfectly good explanations for out of body experiences that are not metaphysical in nature. I'm not allowed to copy paste, but that was definitely what was said, and a rereading of the thread would show that this is true.

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08 Sep 08 - 07:34 PM (#2434676)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

I agree that there are perfectly good explanations for OBEs. But science ain't got any answers. To say it's something synaptic or electro-chemical is no different than saying "We the scientific community believe . . . ." Neither do they have proof.

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08 Sep 08 - 07:36 PM (#2434679)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

I have to go. Work calls. Hey, Bill, I'll see you in my dreams. lol

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08 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM (#2434684)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

When I threw the PE, I was in a complete trackton unit due to my back. When I was out of body I noticed one of the wing nuts that held the traction together on the top was broken off. When I got better and they took the unit down, sure enough there it was. Now noone could have seen it. It was at the top of the Unit overhead of my bed. I couldn't have seen it before hand. It was setup when I entered the hospital. Just some kind of freak occurance. couple that with telling the docs what the did to me .. another freak occurance. Coupled with me not wanting to come back. It was wondeful why would I come back I was in complete piece and no pain. My grandfather said it is not your time ... woosh back into a world of pain ..

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08 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM (#2434698)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

and you see God is a God of Love. He lets us choose our own path. He is not the God of the TV guys who ask for money or the other corrupt people of the cloth. It breaks his heart, He is a just and loving God. A light in total darkness, a peace like noone could know, a love like no one could know. We all choose to be born. Like a soldier some succeed, some fail, but everyone is a hero for trying. Many people have it all wrong. It is not a God of vengence
but of love. The belief that there is not a God is a religion also. Each has their right to choose their beliefs. It is given, not forced but the knowledge of the existance of God cannot be so easily discounted when you are on the receiving side of it. It is a slap in the face that says, you were never alone, you only thought you were, for me, no argument is needed. I been there, I heard I saw and I accept

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08 Sep 08 - 07:55 PM (#2434707)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Carol...you are simply missing the point. "perfectly good explanations" does not mean 'the right & true answer' it means explanations that can be defended logically and by various scientific tests. Yes...that means "could be wrong"... but science is full of perfectly good theories and explanations that need further examination to SEE if they are excellent candidates for 'true'. You & Amos and many others do not 'seem' to wish to admit that 'something you experienced' could be misinterpreted. You may say you admit this, but most discussions seem to proceed as if it should not BE doubted. It is this seeming 'assumption' that I keep trying to put into perspective.

The point is: If several explanations 'could' be correct, then any one of them could also be false...and often, they are so mutually inconsistent that no more than one COULD be true.

You must remember- I spent many hours being drilled by professional philosophers in not only what passes for 'truth' and 'evidence', but also in how to use language to discuss it. I am trying to do some of that in a forum where not everyone sees the reasons behind my nit-picking.

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08 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM (#2434710)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

Yes, but I would like to see the non-metaphysical "explanation" for how people could see things that their bodies could not.

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08 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM (#2434712)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

...or even A non metaphysical explanation for this phenomenon.

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08 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM (#2434715)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

My rejoinder, Bill, is that it is the neurological model that insists on more complexity than is needed, compared to the postulation of a simple unit that is aware of being aware, the Thou behind all the computational complexity. This unit has no mechanical attributes but it has two attributes of ability -- to perceive and to intend or postulate. Thus it is the seat of understanding, communication, and the spectrum of perception by appreciation of the frequencies and patterns emanated by parts of the brain.

This one postulated component, with its simple abilities, explains as much as all the "brain is terribly complex, billions of neurons, billions to the tenth of [possible, unknown, combinations, and a great deal about it we don't yet know...".

Seems by far the more direct and elegant explanation is that one Is, and one has a body. Lots of complexity in the body, several millions of types of molecular compounds, DNA to the trillions, the complexity, layer upon layer, is endless.

Thus, I submit that William is on my side.




A

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08 Sep 08 - 08:12 PM (#2434729)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

I have submitted a few times that William is fulla crap. That's the simplest explanation for his postulate.

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08 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM (#2434736)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

AMong other reasons for claiming William, this model also provides an avenue of explanation for a number of things that phsyical science won't consider trying to explain, including the world renowned placebo effect, the extraordinarily high ratio of psychosomatic to bio-mechanical disease (estimated as high as 70% in some papers), the range of intuition, the instances of empathic communication over distance instantaneously, sometimes including hard factual data, the range of phenomena described as NDEs and OBEs, the interesting effects of positive and negative communications on the immune system, the role of pictures in physical wellbeing and the effectiveness of guided imagery, the occasionally documented instances of remote viewing well above random chance accuracy, and some bits and pieces of love, poetry and religious appetities.

Your model accounts, so far, for none of these things.


A

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08 Sep 08 - 08:25 PM (#2434743)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: john f weldon

All I can say is.... ...Giant Cow Heads! Cryptic?? Tommorrow the meaning will, perhaps, be clear!

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08 Sep 08 - 08:26 PM (#2434744)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

I knew you were gonna say that, John!

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08 Sep 08 - 08:30 PM (#2434745)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,Ed T

Maybe something of interest in this web site?


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12531-outofbody-experiences-are-all-in-the-mind.html

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08 Sep 08 - 08:32 PM (#2434749)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jeri

It's always the same thing... Giant Cow Heads! Whatever happened to fuchsia alien hybrid grasshopper people!

If I ever have one of these, I want to choose the body I get wind up in. That's all I wanted to say...

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08 Sep 08 - 09:05 PM (#2434761)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

That New Scientist article also doesn't explain how someone could see a broken wing nut that their body couldn't see and that nobody else knew about.

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08 Sep 08 - 10:52 PM (#2434795)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Amos, you DO have a way with words. It is quite a feat, making Occam sound like he is on YOUR side....but as usual, you manage it by misrepresenting what *I* have claimed....a classic 'straw man' premise.
Boiled down, all those 'billions' refer simply to one fact... that the complexity of the brain allows it to fool us at times. That IS a simpler explanation than inventing things like ummm.."IS-ness" and "something that can BE separate from the body" (soul?)then assuming that once you have named this (entity?) you can then just refer to it as if it has substance...no, wait...non-substance,...that is non-substance with existential import!

*Whoosh*!! William (shall we just be folkies and call him Willie-O?)..would really have fun with that one. Then there all the other concepts required to continue explicating the properties of this non-corporeal 'entity' which goes out and finds wing-nuts and reports back on them to the..ummm..corporeal blob which might be interested.
...and you say *I* 'multiply entities beyond necessity'!

Oh, and science certainly IS dealing with "...the world renowned placebo effect, the extraordinarily high ratio of psychosomatic to bio-mechanical disease..." etc, plus how bio-feedback can be useful in healing...(which sure LOOKS like meta-physics until we see how it works! Methinks you are cherry-picking your examples.

Remote 'seeing'? Finding wing-nuts or anything else "that the body can't see" is interesting...should be investigated. Can cases be compared, or are they all just interesting coincidences? How accurate were the 'seeings'? How well was the REPORT of the remote seeing documented? I am willing to look at such accomplishments...but NOT willing to say, "Oh wow!" just because someone makes a claim. As you might guess, I could have been in trouble when those two girls at Lourdes told about seeing the Virgin Mary. We skeptics have to careful who we dispute.


BTW...you never did say whether you got the point about Lourdes.

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08 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM (#2434806)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

As for Lourdes, the issue is two-fold. The healing when it has occurred, a placebo effect at best given the hit or miss frequency, and the attribution.

There equally dramatic effects of people being healed by reading a newspaper confirming the drug they thought they were taking was effective, and in one case un-healing again when those findings were refuted the following week.

All this tells me is that thought can induce change in structure, sometimes.

But the fact that it can do so at all says something important about attention and the relationship between brain, mind, and spirit. Oh, except that you believe all spiritual phenomena are projections by the brain. Hmmm....I wonder who's considering that? Must be another part of the brain thinking about the part that is projecting the...this gets pretty complex, don't you think?

As for sir Willie, the hardest thing in applying his rule is to divorce it from our pre-existing assumptions. If you stand the two models outside our preconceived assumptions, and tell each one to explain thought, I would argue mine comes up the simpler, by far. The amount of mirrors and by-pass circuits you have to use would make Rube Goldberg look like Steve Jobs' design genius.

A


A

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09 Sep 08 - 12:00 AM (#2434826)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

In the absence of a non-corporeal entity, how else would one explain someone seeing a broken wing nut that his body couldn't see and that nobody else knew about?

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09 Sep 08 - 03:15 AM (#2434884)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Liz the Squeak

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio...."

Including why my speech marks " and the at sign @ have suddenly exchanged places on my keyboard... when I press the @ I get " and vice versa.

Mind you, the cat has just sat on the keyboard so that might be one explaination...

LTS

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09 Sep 08 - 05:47 AM (#2434985)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: John O'L

Unfortunately Bill has only ever said that it might be thus explained, and I don't think anyone is likely to trick him into claiming any more than that, so you'll never nail him. Give up.

Similarly, olddude's knowledge of the broken wingnut would seem to be a stopper. No-one is going to try to explain that away, except possibly by claiming it just might be explained some day by science we have not yet become aware of.

Liz, cats can do that. It's well known.

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09 Sep 08 - 06:32 AM (#2435012)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: john f weldon

Okay, Peace and Jeri, I can see you thought I was shootin the breeze. But as I promised, here it is...

Giant Cow Heads

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09 Sep 08 - 06:50 AM (#2435022)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Stu

I thought about expressing my opinion on this thread, but have decided not to.

I occasionally get dreams where I'm flying and can actually control my altitude to soar over trees etc. Unfortunately I only get these when I'm relaxed and seeing as I live in a state of permanent anxiety they don't happen as often as I'd like.

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09 Sep 08 - 06:59 AM (#2435025)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

John: YEAH!

(That is a cool article and I remember those signs.)

Man, what a wonderful surprise.

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09 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM (#2435049)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: bobad

Nice article John.

Those cow heads are part of the collective childhood memories of many of us Montrealers. It sure was a summertime treat stopping there for an ice cream served on those sugar cones.

This is where the milk from those cows went: Giant Milk Bottle

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09 Sep 08 - 07:48 AM (#2435051)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Liz the Squeak

Please, don't tell me there's a picture of a giant cow pat somewhere?

LTS

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09 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM (#2435083)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

Pat's not a common name for a cow- though it could be an Irish bull.

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09 Sep 08 - 10:35 AM (#2435178)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Hey, hey, hey, cows? Elsie and Elmer? Elmer is "cattle" but not "cow".

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09 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM (#2435194)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: john f weldon

Curious fact... ...when the dairy branched out with other "cattle" products, Elmer became the symbol of Elmer's Glue! I kid you not. Poor guy.

If this is straying a bit from the original thread, let me point out that those cow heads are definitely "out of body"!

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09 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM (#2435199)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: bobad

Yes John, as 3D billboards they were way ahead of their time.

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09 Sep 08 - 11:20 AM (#2435222)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

I see my point about Lourdes was not made well enough. It is not about purported healings, it is about whether the young girl 'saw' the "Lady" at all.....and not about whether she was lying.

Healings are a totally different matter. Ther indeed may have been some cases where strong 'belief' aided in recoveries thru bio-feedback mechanisms...etc. Then it's a matter of deciding about 'miracles'.

Wingnuts... Carol, that's a story: a report...from one person. I was not there. I do not KNOW whether it was a lucky guess or...perhaps he 'heard', while he was unconcious, two orderlies who knew there was a broken wing-nut discussing fixing it. I don't know whether anyone investigated that sort of possibility: I just DO know that people can sometimes hear things while unconcious and 'recall' it later without knowing why. I am not CLAIMING this is what happened, I am explaining that, because such things DO happen, it is wise to not assume OOBs as the only answer.
   The point is, that I CAN imagine how "In the absence of a non-corporeal entity, how else would one explain someone seeing a broken wing nut...". "Non-corporeal entities" are not the only possible answer.
Now...those who assert the existence of such things need to explain to me...and others... how this might work, much as I offered a possible alternative explanation which HAS been described & documented.

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09 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM (#2435246)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Donuel

While the subject is dangerous, the expereince is not.

A close friend of mine was robbed by two men with a shot gun in his apartment.
I heard about it right before bedtime. With my tired eyes closed I saw myself flying over the city to his apartment and hovering below the ceiling. I saw both men's faces and heard their voices.
For this expereince to have any validy to the actual event it would have to be independant of time. It would have to be independant of gravity and a host of other fundamental testbook laws.

As a hypnotist in 1979 who had been in the papers for making various academicly subversive remarks, a polite and kind faced Navy Captain came to my office shortly after my experience of witnessing a robbery from above. He told me he was with Naval Intelligence and that he was looking for people who had remote viewing talents. He asked me if I could do anything like that or if I knew other people who could.

The coincidence of this magnitude set off alarms in my head.
I felt nothing good would would come from diving headlong into military intelligence experiments.

I lied about my having no experience as well as knowing no one else who had remote expereinces as well.

After reading the Washingtom Post about the sad conflicted expereinces of some of the remote viewers, I am certain I had made the right decision to lie and walk away from a fascinating job.

Saying no to certain people is not without punishment.
Retribution included mysteriously losing my office lease.

The 8 figure budget for military remote viewer projects was reported to have lasted over 10 years.


Certainly the military has wing nuts and has done crazy things but the pursuit of psychic warefare was not taken lightly.
The phenomenon is still worthy of exploration of cognitive abilities and not be dismissed off hand because people like Bill (who can''t even see atmosphereic phenomenoa before his eyes) think its a wing nut notion.

TTake your wing nut rhetoric and shove it.

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09 Sep 08 - 11:43 AM (#2435248)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: bobad

Hey maybe that's the answer to biLL's question:

Subject: BS: secret terrorist killing program
From: GUEST,number 6 - PM
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:10 AM

Sorry to avert attention away from the election carnival here ... but do any of you folks have any idea what the hell Woodward talking about here ...

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/09/09/iraq.secret/index.html

biLL

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09 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM (#2435263)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ed T

Could the blind see through out of body experiences? Would be interesting to see a valid science test on this claim.


http://www.religionen.at/irsilverb01.htm

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09 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM (#2435298)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Partridge

here

Blind people havind an NDE can see

NDE Near death experience

Pat x

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09 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM (#2435456)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC

If the only way someone can explain away the many, many cases of people seeing things their corporeal bodies could not see while having an OBE, is to say that they weren't there, so they don't know, I would say that occam's razor is definitely not on their side.

The person who had the story about the wing nut said that nobody there knew there was a broken wing nut until after the OBE experience, when that person told the other people about it. Trying to say the person heard something being talked about by others when that person has reported that nobody else knew about the broken wing nut is making things unnecessarily complicated.

And since no scientific explanation has been forthcoming, I think we can say that there is no non-metaphysical explanation for the cases when people see and report things they could not have seen with their corporeal bodies.

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09 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM (#2435469)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"I think we can say that there is no non-metaphysical explanation ..."

Ok, fine.... I've said what I can say. I didn't exactly hold my breath that I'd get lots of agreement....but at least it's on record.

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09 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM (#2435479)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

Why do the beliefs of others--beliefs they hold based on personal experience--rankle you so? Science has given NO answers. Nor has Occam. Bill, think what you want. These folks will, too. It shouldn't be an issue.

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09 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM (#2435499)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ed T

I am not really sure that Partridge's link actually shows sight as we know it. Seeing objects you can feel on your body, and putting them in different thought perspectives is not compelling and is likely quite explainable.

IMO, spiritual experiences can likely also be excluded. Aboriganial sweat lodges (and similar ceremonies) have shown similar out of body and "spiritual" (and visual-distortion) experiences.

It seems over-extending to expect a scientist to explain "scientifically" what someone says they personally experienced. The most they could do is speculate from known research. But, IMO this alone does not make an expressed personable experience any more scientifically (or otherwise) credible.

It would likely be difficult to conduct a credible scientific experiment on much of what has been described from the past.

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09 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM (#2435552)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

Ya know what, I could really care less what anyone else thinks or doesn't. I know what happened to me, I also know what is true for me. Everyone has there own path. You see the difference between me and others is I do not put them down for their belief's to each their own. I could care less. The thread was about OBE I been there, told what happened to me. Blew the minds of my docs and I leave it at that. I spent my life in math, x's and Y's but some things cannot be solved through calculus or physics.   As for Lourds. Yes she came, and yes there are healings and the account of Lords and majagori are real to me. My beliefs so whatever you think I could care less actually

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09 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM (#2435560)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ed T

olddude,
I am curious?

Why do you post, or read the posts...opinions, experiences, beliefs, speculations...and such... of others if you really feel as you state.

My guess is you likely really do care....but then this is only my belief, from what I see... and from my life experiences.

:)

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09 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM (#2435566)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

No not really, the thread is about OBE, Just wanted to give my account of what happened. I really don't care if anyone believes it or not. I am always interested in what others saw or experienced the same thing. Like the watch situation. That is why, don't care about the belief thing that is mine you see and others are most allowed to believe or not. Makes no difference to me. What is interesting is others that been through the same. There are not many that I know but all seem to have a lot of common experiences.

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09 Sep 08 - 04:35 PM (#2435574)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

C'mon, Peace... after YEARS you should realize that what 'rankles' me is not simple belief, but rather careless reasoning and, worse, beliefs held with little reasoning at all.

"..think what you want. These folks will, too. It shouldn't be an issue. "

It is not a case of my 'beliefs' vs. other's... I mostly have few beliefs. I discuss what believing is about. Remember, this thread was started by Jane, who wanted some perspective on what OBEs might involve, and specifically asked me how she might read varying opinions. They worried her, and I am suggesting that she need NOT worry too much, as there is much evidence for natural causes.

But it IS an issue when beliefs affect how the world is run....and bad habits of thinking partially due to faulty reasoning and improbable beliefs are causing a great deal of havoc in the world. (my classic example is suicide bombers who 'believe' they are going to Paradise.)
Just because belief in OBEs is not as seriously relevant, it does not follow that careful scrutiny of the possibilities is useless or silly or somehow 'insulting' to those who believe in them.
I want folks to know as much as possible about the world, how it works, and their place in it...but I want them to know when their logic and reasoning are careless, too! People in various circumstances believe a HUGE amount of stuff...some of it absolutely incompatible with other beliefs. Someone needs to help sort out why this is and how to cope.
The real problem is that it is WORK to get a handle on what is really involved. I have a basic education in it,,,Wolfgang can cite details and studies. But, as we see, anyone can just declare they don't like or agree with my ramblings and assert things like "Oh, YOU just 'believe' in science, and my belief is just as valid as yours.." ...and if they can make statements like that, they don't get it, and there's little I can do. They WISH to believe in these arcane ideas,,,from Tarot & Astrology to precognition & OBEs..etc..
   All I can do is insert an occasional reminder of other possibilities into the mix....as Max says, these threads may be here for years, and this is my BLOG.


"The burden of proof is on the assertor"

"From false premises, anything follows."

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09 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM (#2435590)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

In my model, visual capabilities are ultimately resident in the spiritual being (perceive and intend, remember?), Blindness, however, is both an optical and an individual issue. Optical blindness has no bearing on what happens visually in an OOB, but the individual's ability to see varies wildly depending on his state of being.

The variables in state of being are things like general awareness, emotional level, personal habits of ignoral and putting up screens, and so on. This is one of the factors behind the wide range of dubbing phenomena that tale place.

The decision to "not see" is a typical response to too much confusion or more emotional or physical force than one can stand to perceive; the easy solution is to overlay something more comfortable to think, while ignoring the real motion around one.

This also explains the Republican National Convention.


A

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09 Sep 08 - 05:01 PM (#2435600)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

Well in regard to Jane, they never scared me and should you either Jane. Accept it as a gift however way you wish to view it. Nothing will hurt you it never has to me no matter how anyone wishes to interpret. One thing that I have noticed take it for whatever it is worth or not worth, if you can talk to the whatever, it is most likely a dream. OBE for me, you can only listen not speak, you don't belong there. That is the difference for what happened to me.

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09 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM (#2435646)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

One time I had the experience of seeing my long dead father in law. He was building a cabin as he said for the "wife". Well that is exactly what he would be doing because he had one in life and she loves it. Told me my uncle Dan was taking care of my old lab so not to worry. Then he told me the cabin still needs a lot of work but his nephews Jim and Charlie were helping him. Then I was told go back you do not belong here not your time. I could not speak just listen.

Nothing unususal could be a nice dream right. I never heard those nephew names before ever, he was a quiet man rarely spoke of family if ever. I asked my wife, she never heard of them. She asked my mother in law, she got really quiet and said, they were his nephews who were killed in WWII. They were very close to Dick, always helped him on the farm. Blew us away, she knows he never spoke of them to anyone. That is only 1 small example. It happens.

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09 Sep 08 - 07:07 PM (#2435709)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ed T

olddude
Thanks for explaining that.
Makes sense to me.

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09 Sep 08 - 08:17 PM (#2435755)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

Jaysus, Bill. I know what you mean. BUT, no one here is 'asserting' for anyone else. Most of us have learned to keep quiet about our experiences. (We know about Salem.)

I would never evey think of trying to convince anyone else that me experiences are real or true. They are to me, and that's all. With regard to the paranormal, metaphysics, etc., I am as much a skeptic as are you. The things I experienced were neither of those things. I have known (for myself) ever since my grandfather told me in a dream that he was going to die soon that there is some mechanism for information to be transferred from one person to another that doesn't involve the phone or spoken word. I could never prove that to you, nor would I try to. (I have the greatest respect for you, Bill. Always have had. And my opinion of you ain't about to change because of this or any other thread. FYI.) Since I was 12--and I'm 60 for a little longer--I have know that there are spirits. Not all of them are nice. I met a bad one in Montreal and 9it was the most 'scared' I have ever been in my life. (I've faced death more than a few times and it didn't scare me the way the 'spirit' did. Some 'good' angels came to help me. I encountered another lost soul in NYC. My dog was aware of its presence. Hair on her spine was straight up and the room had a chill in it. I have a daughter who can be in the presence of people and know instinctively who the people are she should avoid. She was the gal who brought the three objects to her mom. When the phone rang i9n Windsor, Ontario, I KINEW it was a call to say my grandmother had died. I mentioned that to Eddie as I was going to the phone. Even kinew before I got to the phone who was calling with the info0. On some calls, even as the pager goes, I know what the call is and whether there will be dead at the scene. I don't have those tjhoughts when people are just injured. I could prove NONE of this to you. But because I am not trying to convince you that anything I have just said is 'true' or 'real', I have no investment in others' beliefs about what I have said. It's not that I don't care, really. It's that I know, and in knowing I find no need to convince others.

That make sense to you?

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09 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM (#2435764)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

Hey, Bill. I gotta say that when I apply Occam's Razor to the situation, the simplest explanation is that there IS another world that some people do access--maybe a place where time works a bit differently. Where senses tell us to ignore logic because the logic we grew up with in this place doesn't really apply there.

BM

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09 Sep 08 - 08:43 PM (#2435774)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude

Peace
A friend of mine lost his mother in law, I never met her, never talked to her. I told him something she said to me out of the blue it was not only right on he said I could not have known that, noone could have known that. It is an angel I think and it was a very good message for his wife. I don't ask for it, just accept it ... and before my near death it never happened to me , afterwords it happens somewhat frequent. I drew a sketch of his wifes childhood house in detail , she was blown away... I could not have known where his wife grew up or anything about the house but it is what I saw and heard. Like I said can't speak just listen then get thrown out cause you are not to be there just allowed for a moment. I hear you bro, no explaining needed on this one for me. By the way, I can't believe I am talking about it, I never do ... interesting maybe it is for the good. God works in his way not ours

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09 Sep 08 - 08:45 PM (#2435776)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,Jaze

I was brought up Catholic and know the story of Lourdes. There was one ONE visionary at Lourdes- Bernadette. Who was the other one I missed?

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09 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM (#2435778)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

All I can say is there is an awful lot to know, and very little really known, about the particular dynamics of this pan-dimensional, or non-local mode of being these guys are talking about.


A

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09 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM (#2435788)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Bernadette was there with her sister and another girl...I misspoke when I suggested more than one saw things...in fact she tried to show them, but they could see nothing.

Peace...I'll respond somehow tomorrow. I'm pooped. Suffice it to say for now that I *never* doubt that someone had the intense experience they say they had.

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09 Sep 08 - 09:31 PM (#2435805)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz

Hi Kids: I used to have a dream for about 15 years that had the body rise up to a light shown through the window of a large hall. It took a number of years to see what was inside as the body would slam back down to the bed with a jolt.
When I was able to look through the open window after a number of years what I perceived was an empty room filled with torches on the wall. Once that happened, I stopped having the dream.

Another instance was me flying out of body in three dimensional technicolor around the POM Bakery here in Montreal at approximately 2p.m. So incredibly real. A one time event.

I have had people tell me they saw me in two different places at the same time...

Quantum Physics tells us that these things are commonplace in a sub-atomic world...

The next real frontier is the mind...

I suggest you check out Masuru Emoto's "The Hidden Messages in Water.."

bob

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10 Sep 08 - 12:15 AM (#2435864)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

I shall look forward to it, Bill. Thank you.

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10 Sep 08 - 03:37 AM (#2435924)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

Memory is a far more complex thing than a simple record of events. It's been shown that people continue (unconsciously) to revise memories long after the event occurred, and that these revisions can be radical. It's not questioning the intensity of an experience to ask whether what caused the intense feeling was the actual narrative that the memory provides.

I'd go so far as to say that you don't know what you experienced until you've recounted it to yourself in a way that makes a story of the chaotic impressions that your senses (especially sick, disturbed or drugged senses) provide.

In a vision of oneself lying in bed, you must remember that you know what you look like- you've looked in mirrors from infanthood on (otherwise how did you know you were looking at yourself?). When the interpretive loop is disrupted (as in the out-of-body simulation experiments cited above), sensations can appear to be located externally to the body, so the memory re- interprets them as events that happened to a "feeling entity" remote from the body, and recreates the scene to make sense of this.

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11 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM (#2437222)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: john f weldon

I know this is major thread drift, but the people who were interested in the Giant Cow Heads will probably look here when this pops up to the top. The Concordia Prof mentioned in the article wrote to Parmalat, which currently owns the heads, and offered to store them if they were planning to trash them. They replied that they wished to hang on to them, with the possibility of someday resurrecting them.

The Cows May Rise Again!!!

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11 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM (#2437382)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

The "betrayed by tricky complex mechanisms" model of inacurrate memory strikes me as insidiously matter-centric, and unduly complicated. Why do you have to rig up so many reflecting surfaces and suspend so many modules of carbom-derived particle suspension nebular accretions to explain an individual and his memory or failure thereof?

Doesn't that seem like a sorta rococo and roundabout chain to describe something that is much simpler?

Sure, people change the pictures around when remembering things.

Hell, they make the pictures in the first place, so they have evetry right.


A

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11 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM (#2437470)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

?? Huh??
seldom have I seen so many linguistic metaphors assembled to say in a classic of circular reasoning,"if I think it, my own thinking justifies how I thunk it."

" insidiously matter-centric .....wow! Sounds like 'matter' is a sneaky plot to undermine easy use of vacuous terminology. Oughta be an investigation!

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11 Sep 08 - 12:36 PM (#2437479)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Bill D:

Boy, did you miss the point in my last post.

There are two models in play here.

Model one: A spiritual being generates and recreates at will pictures of space, time, motion, etc. and views them.

Model two: A complex series of traces gets written during moments of experience to some sort of neuron- or cell-based holographic memory system on an automatic basis. These images are stimulated into re-generating by an impulse from some other complex sub-system which gives orders based on stimulus-response patterns which are in turn activated by language or by environmental inputs, and then this regenerated holographic complex of synaptic impulses somehow gets decoded into perception which is then viewed by a separate "perceive" subsystem which is erroneously considered by itself to be a self. Despite this delusory misappreciation of the real mechanistic nature, this deluded subcomponent continues to refer to itself as an I and call up more concatenations of complex re-firings of old neuronic patterns in order to think it is actually looking at pictures of past memories, but this is not the case since there is no true "I" in the system, just lots of complex sub-assemblies firing off charges at each other to create the illusion of an individual.

William, spare me!!


A

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11 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM (#2437499)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

Billdarlin'...just remember Mudcat already has one Willie-O!

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11 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM (#2437507)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

there is no true "I" in the system

And...?

You're begging the question, by assuming that a "real" experiencer has to be non- material.

What do you mean by a 'true "I"', and why can't it be based on neurones?

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11 Sep 08 - 01:30 PM (#2437522)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Because it doesn't explain the most important event of the system, when stimuli becomes viewing and understanding. The idea that you can make a S-R system, no matter how complex, appreciate anything, or genuinely perceive anything, is absurd. Perception is not in the same class of phenomenon as packets, or chatrges traveling through nerves and firing neurons. At the end of that string of stimuli, something different occurs. THat's why.

A

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11 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM (#2437625)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Right, Bill. Let's define what a spiritual being is in the simplest of possible terms.

1. An essentially non-local awareness unit capable of knowing, perception and intention. Such a unit is only located to the degree it considers itself to be located, but is inherently not part of the space-time continuum.

2. An awareness-of-awareness capability capable of assuming a position in space or time.

There are a lot of other observable attributes and furbelows, but those are the core aspects.

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11 Sep 08 - 03:52 PM (#2437637)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

The difficulty is people trying to explain the OBE when they haven't had them. I don't care what caused it--neurons, time lapse, faulty memory, etc. You people are looking for the cause. I don't CARE about the cause. Nor do I ask others to believe. In fact, should you determine it could not have happened, then I'm a liar as far as you are concerned. I would not be perceived as a liar by others who have had one or more experiences. I don't mean any of that to sound offensive. Go, find the cause. But y'all ain't gonna find it on Mudcat.

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11 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM (#2437765)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Nope..not a liar, Peace, *smile*.... As I said before, I NEVER doubt that a person experienced 'something'. It may even be relevant to their life and very moving emotionally...and important that they come to terms with certain memories & experiences. I have had a few myself.
Nor am I 'looking' for the cause. I am suggesting that there are, logically and rationally, OTHER possible causes than what Amos and others are claiming, thus casting doubt on various METAphysical concepts. I debate with Amos because he specifically claims that there ARE 'spiritual entities' which can both be part of a physical body and be separate from it. Look at his post right above yours.
Amos... I can define Gods & Angels and Demons in similar language, as well as many other concepts humans use, but using the words serves only to express an idea....and IF that's all one wants to do....that is, to create conceptual entities to account for experiences and feelings that are hard to grasp otherwise, then I can't really complain. People DO use metaphor and modeling thru language to express our reflections on existence and the possible meanings of existence when we are GIVEN few clues. This is done in poetry and literature and song every day.
   *I* sing songs that express such things, and manages to convey emotion and wonder at the very IDEA of being alive and capable of reflexive conciousness. I just don't fall into the trap of assuming that concepts, like Platonic 'forms', have any cognitive reality and can act independently of the corporeal being that has them.
THAT is what I suggest implies and requires many un-stated premises, which, if any one of them are false, causes the whole house-of cards to collapse. THAT is what Occam refers to when he suggests his 'razor' as a guide, and THAT is what is so often just slipped into a story as if everyone should realize its truth...even if we can't agree on what it is, where it came from or how to list its characteristics.
   That's what makes it so slippery....people nod knowingly and assume they 'understand' in order to support each other's emotional reactions to what **MAY** be nothing more than electrochemical patterns of neural activity in their brains. It is sure not nearly as interesting if it only a form of dreaming.

   I saw a program the other night about a special branch of psychology concerned with memory and how much confidence we place in our memories. Tests were done where people wore helmet cameras, and were presented with strange circumstances. Later, they were interviewed about the situations, and,,,yes...their memories often differed widely from what the testers KNEW had happened and what video from cameras showed! When experience is hard to take in & interpret, our natural tendency is to MAKE some sense out of it...even to creating facts and then swearing that's what happened.
   No, they weren't lying!! They had processed memories until they had a coherent pattern to relate.
Now...I submit that if a body is near death, or reacting to drugs in a hospital...etc...it sure might have it's neural pathways discombomulated (that's a technical term)...I myself once experienced LSD..wow, fellers! But I don't think any of those 'sights' that I saw were real, or that any 'spiritual' part of me left & went wandering!

As they say, "you can't prove a negative"...so it is not my goal to say "You could not have done what you say you did." My only goal is to make sure that alternate possibilities are outlined...especially when I am asked, as Jane did. No...I retract that...I have another goal... to force myself to clarify my own thoughts and to put them down so that, if I re-read this thread in a few months or years, I will be satisfied that I said what I meant and that I'm happy to have others read it. Why, even succeed in that now & then.

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11 Sep 08 - 06:01 PM (#2437775)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

THAT is why I respect you so much, Bill. And guess what? I agree with you. In ancient times one of us would go, "Eureka." Since you likely look better'n me naked, I'll suggest YOU go running down the streets shouting it.

Thanks, Bill. Great post BTW.

Bruce

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11 Sep 08 - 07:54 PM (#2437852)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Well, Bill, I hear you. But the simple fact is you DO have moments of understanding, and osmewhere at the end of the long synaptic chain of firing neurons, there is--even for you!--a transition between reactions and understanding or perception.

If you can tell me what that is without resorting to unfathomable complexity, I'll be real interested. Until then, William stays in my box!!

A

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11 Sep 08 - 10:44 PM (#2437960)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Peace... uhh... I barely know how to be agreed with... but thanks for reading that whole mish-mash. (I haven't run down the street naked in, oh...ages. I doubt it 's in either of our interests to compare form..)

Amos...re: "transition between reactions and understanding or perception."

I just can't agree that such a 'transition' is anything that is particularly noteworthy. I'd approach a discussion about it by asking if you consider animals to have the same 'spiritual' aspects that you attribute to humans. And, if so, how far down the scale?
And, if not, when did we humans acquire it in our evolutionary progress?
My own 'model' is that understanding is merely something like 'critical mass'. Lower 'animals' appreciate danger and can do various levels of 'planning' and recognize friends & foes,...etc....so how is reflective cognition anything more than just more complex types of 'reactions'? Presumably, 5 million years ago, our remote ancestors didn't 'understand' in the sense we do....then when did we get the ability? 30,000 years ago, it looks like most people were much like us, except for experience. I assume THEY dreamed and had stuff go on in their heads that made them wonder what was happening.

(I ask the same type of question to those trying to sell me some religious 'truth' about my soul, and how it's gonna be fried for eternity if I don't QUIT asking these questions) "Gee, when did we get 'souls'? Do chimps have 'em? How about worms? And all those things in between?"

Folks like the Jains have a simple answer...ALL beings have some sort of soul, and killing one..even a bug.. brings bad Karma...etc. As far as I know, they don't argue it...they just shrug and avoid stepping on bugs.

So...you see? Once one gets the idea of 'spiritual entity' implanted, whether it's a fact or not, one is committed to all sorts of complex hypothesizing about the extent, origin and status of these entities.

Folks like the Jains have a simple answer...ALL beings have some sort of soul, and killing one..even a bug.. brings bad Karma...etc. As far as I know, they don't argue it...they just shrug and avoid stepping on bugs.

So...you see? Once one gets the idea of 'spiritual entity' implanted, whether it's a fact or not, one is committed to all sorts of complex hypothesizing about the extent, origin and status of these entities.


I refer you to some interesting reading:

This guy, Paul Lutus, says some of the things I try to say, but from a very different perspective. He has a LOT of stuff on different pages of his site...some just interesting, some maddening, but always pretty clear.

"In my opinion, the greatest single failure of American education is that students come away unable to distinguish between a symbol and the thing the symbol stands for."

Paul Lutus

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11 Sep 08 - 10:59 PM (#2437967)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Well, thanks Bill, for a thoughtful reply.

I think you see a balance in any person between reactions and analysis.

Some very insane patterns of behavior can be caused just by stimulating certain buttons, and this occurs to the exact degree the individual is unable to differentiate between things and so associates past confusion with present circumstances in ways that are not valid. This happens because of "blind" association, automatic pushbutton thinking that says now is the same as then or this is the same as that when it ain't.

Some lower organisms are entirely stimulus response, and others are capable of some moments of more analytical attention, like well-behaved dogs who are always alert to what their "person" wants and try to do it. I have known horses that seemed a lot mellower and more intelligent about events than their riders, too. I've known people who were pure animal response systems with no intervention of higher orders or thought, and I've known some animals who seemed less reaction-based than some people.

So I think the balance between genuine thought and reactions posing as thought varies from organism to organism, and it clearly manifests more distinctly in more complex brains such as ours. This is something (metaphorically speaking) akin tot he difference between a semaphore, a Morse code receiver, and a cell phone.

But in each case I think there is also a separate assessment that should be made of the operator at the other end, so to speak.

A

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12 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM (#2438008)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

"Amos... I can define Gods & Angels and Demons in similar language, as well as many other concepts humans use, but using the words serves only to express an idea...." Bill D

Bill, I have wondered about it and I think you have slipped up and given us the answer: What concepts humans use, eh? Tell me, have you come to us from the future or from the past or just maybe from out there? (Wouldn't it be neat to discover that some friends are not of this earth but are in fact angels (or demons? yikes) or higher beings of some sort?)


Amos, it made me recall the phrase "push(ing) my/his/her buttons" when you said: "Some very insane patterns of behavior can be caused just by stimulating certain buttons, and this occurs to the exact degree the individual is unable to differentiate between things and so associates past confusion with present circumstances in ways that are not valid." Did that phrase come from before we knew that areas of the brain have these specific responders? It does sound as though one stems from the other.

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12 Sep 08 - 01:28 AM (#2438020)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

The phrase preceded any actual analysis of brain areas by MRI, I'm sure.


A

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12 Sep 08 - 03:02 AM (#2438054)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Bill D, I have reread my post and I must say I am sorry. My heavy handed attempt at expressing approval and admiration - even when I don't agree with you - comes across as sniping. 'Twasn't meant that way.

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12 Sep 08 - 04:03 AM (#2438088)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

The idea that you can make a S-R system, no matter how complex, appreciate anything, or genuinely perceive anything, is absurd

Why?

You're just assuming that your answer is true in advance. It's normally the woo brigade who castigate the scientific view as closed minded, but you can't get much more closed than rejecting other points of view simply because you don't feel like believeing them.

How about the idea that consciousness is a propert that ALL matter can have, when appropriately organised. That your perception of it being YOUR consciousness is an illusion; it's just the ordinary consciousness that all matter is capable of. That hence YOU don't exist- it's an illusion that YOU are separate from other matter.

No evidence for it? As much as for ghosts, spirits, souls or whatever you like to call the incorporeal observer.

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12 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM (#2438185)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: 1LizzieCornish

There are scientists.

There are believers.

And there are those who simply 'know'.

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12 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM (#2438407)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Ebbie: don't fret...this is exchanging ideas...and ideas about ideas. I don't take it personally. (and if I DID come from the future, I sure have forgotten about it...and I'm not sure 'neat' is how I'd feel about discovering Angels and Demons were among us.) I don't even know how we'd tell....we have paintings and stories and movies with descriptions and images of things like Angels, but those are human imaginations projecting concepts...and once we get a few 'set', like images of Jesus with the beard & robe, all the images found on Cheetos & rusty water tanks seem to resemble the standard 'form'. If Angels are not linited by matter, why would they need wings to arrive here and do whatever it is they do? *grin*.....

So...you see why, at least, I ask pointed questions about many of the things and experiences that happen 'inside' us and are not subject to objective testing and comparison?


Paul Burke:
"How about the idea that consciousness is a propert that ALL matter can have, when appropriately organised."

It's an idea...*shrug*...what more can be said about it? *IF* X were true, *THEN* Y might be true...but finding out about X is the problem. (and what a HUGE batch of 'maybes' is buried in the notion of "appropriately organized".)

Lizzie:
"And there are those who simply 'know'."
   ...yes, I've met some of them. I got away from them as fast as possible. Since "simply knowing" is subjective to the individual, there's no way for us 'others' to have any idea what is going on in their heads...and it can be awkward when they 'tell' you. ☺

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12 Sep 08 - 11:55 AM (#2438416)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Bill:

Just as a comment, getting away from those who simply know, as you describe, is of course a "retreat to the commons", so to speak--to the phenomenology of those things we all see the same. I would offer the argument for consideration that those things which we all see the same constitute the materail space-time continuum, to a large degree, and that in a sense, you are like a zoologist who never leaves the university campus office to see whether there are really such things as elephants (or hippogriffes, for that matter).

As for the potential "consciousness" of matter, it is arguable, sure. But the most profound reason fro my earlier statement is that particles (the objects of viewing) and awareness (the potential of vierwing) are profoundly, qualitatively so different that arguimg that the former is made out of the latter seems like arguing that the sun is made of very tiny snowballs, just formed into very complex connections. Or pigs with lipstick on.


A

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12 Sep 08 - 11:58 AM (#2438418)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

finding out about X is the problem

Indeed it is. You can't even be certain that the person you are talking to is conscious. Solipsism this way.

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12 Sep 08 - 12:20 PM (#2438439)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Paul: David Hume, one of the major exponents of solipsistic ideas, said in a footnote some where that (paraphrased): "even though I am confident that my reasoning is sound, it is sometimes too much to contemplate, and I find that I must act 'as though' the world and all those other beings in it ARE quite real and not just in my own mind"

Indeed, Hume's reasoning was quite well done and tightly argued.....but once you look carefully at the premises he began with, his entire system exists in a bubble...it only hold under certain condidions. *IF* he can get to to assume X is true, then you are indeed locked into Y.

Part of the awkwardness of being human is that is is difficult to examine the phenomenological aspects "of those things we all see the same" that Amos refers to. There is a concept in phenomenology called the "eidetic reduction", where we do something like 'run around behind ourselves and grabour conciousness by the back of the neck' so that we can objectively examine our own subjectivity. So far, it is ONLY a concept....and it remains VERY difficult to deal with even simple questions like "how do I know I am being honest or altruistic?" ...and if THAT is the case, how do we approach the same questions about others?
   This is why I am dubious when I read posts that seem to assume that it is possible to be sure of the causes and explanations of metaphysical & para-psychological experiences....and why I claim that science, for all ITS complexity, is simpler than postulating premises like those which caused Hume so much consternation.

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12 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM (#2438552)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Bill:

Science starts with hypotheses that seek to form a framework that allows an explanation of all known data, predicts new data which can be found to exist, and accounts for the data more simply, or more elegantly than other models.

There is nothing unscientific about the discussion of possible models, and of the flaws in present ones.

A

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12 Sep 08 - 04:09 PM (#2438678)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

That's quite true, Amos...and we are discussing them now. Science does, of course, have picky little issues about being able to replicate results and test various theories.

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12 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM (#2438706)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

Bill, I think that the appearance of Angels is filtered in a unique fashion through the consciousness of the one seeing the Angel.

What I mean is, the Angel is not physical at all, and it is not dependent on physical requirements or limited to a physical form as we are when we're living in a physical body in a physical world.

Accordingly, no one can say in any ultimate sense what the Angel "looks like", they can only say how it looks to them at the time they see it, and how it looks to them is probably dependent upon how their consciousness interprets the experience, and how their consciousness interprets the experience will be influenced by their culture, their past experiences, their beliefs, their expectations, etc...

It will appear in the guise that their consciousness is most capable of dealing with.

So, the same Angel could appear as:

- a winged being
- a being without wings
- a male being
- a female being
- a Christian figure
- a Muslim figure
- a Buddhist figure
- a North American Indian figure
- a reptilian being
- an androgenous being
- a known saint
- Jesus
- Buddha
- a shining ball of light
- or just about anything else imaginable....depending on the state of mind and understanding of the eyewitness.

And yet they could ALL be the very same Angel...which is to say, it's not a physical being at all, it's not a being tied to our cultural or religious traditions or expectations, it's a form of highly intellgent living consciousness which the human mind cannot see in its ultimate sense, but must translate into some kind of recognizable terms that that person can relate to.

If so, then your various concerns about Angels having or not having beards, wings, robes, etc, would be interesting, but irrelevant.

They would simply be different individual versions of human perceptions of a non-physical phenomenon which we haven't the ability to define in our usual terms...because it's beyond our usual physical experiences.

An Angel clearly doesn't NEED any wings! ;-) But that doesn't mean someone's individual consciousness can't or won't translate the sight of a being of pure energy into the image of an Angle with wings...if that suits that individual consciousness.

I will PM you presently with further info.

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12 Sep 08 - 05:00 PM (#2438723)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Following the theme of angels, my family dropped the ball as far as I'm concerned, before my father died at the age of 93.

They never got around to telling me that before he died - in good health, believe it or not; his pulse, always slow, simply slowed to the point it couldn't sustain him - he had told them that an angel had several times awakened him by touching him on the knee and then smiled at him wordlessly. He said it was totally peaceful and non-frightening.

Dad was a pragmatic sort and I never heard him discuss things of the after-life.

He told two of my brothers that he was afraid it meant that his wife of four years was going to die and he would be left alone again.

One brother told me that in response, he thought, Oh, no, Dad. This is for you.

Since I didn't know it - being in Alaska - I didn't get to ask him questions, like how did you identify it as angelic? So far as I know, he never mentioned wings.

I'm with Little Hawk. I see no reason for wings. If there are such things as angels, they are as diaphanous as thought itself.

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12 Sep 08 - 06:06 PM (#2438773)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

I would suggest that the cor einteraction of attention between "units" of ;ife gets complexified by the plasticity and the tendency to drum up pictures in response to the stimulation, rather than simply see what is there. All of Bill's highly favored pychological tests demonstrate the endless human capacity to dub in more than is actually seen.

What is of interest to me is not that "X occurred and J saw an angel..." (or an alien or a goddess or a demon or a mercurial messenger in a hardhat). The interesting thing is what X really consisted of and how to learn more about such events.


A

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12 Sep 08 - 07:20 PM (#2438832)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

If, as Little Hawk suggests, the appearance of angels and some other 'entities' that come calling to 'some' people at some times, is merely US supplying our own personal 'images' to a phenomenon that has no particular form, then the issue is not resolved, but just pushed one level back.
In fact, *I* would tend to agree that it is probable that individual who see such things do supply the details in some format that makes sense to us.
Whether the apparition itself comes from inside us, or IS a manifestation of an external force, is still in doubt. Since we know that people DO on occasion suffer delusions or are tricked by charlatans, we still need some way to sort 'em out.

As I like to remind folks now & then, I WANT some of these things to be true...maybe so badly that I hate the very idea of believing and being wrong! I am told that I need to try harder...*grin*.. to open my mind to possibilities and 'accept'. I like to think that IF these things are gen-yoo-ine, they can get to me no matter what I believe! Kinda like ants at a picnic....

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12 Sep 08 - 08:14 PM (#2438869)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

Hey, man, no one wants ants at a picnic! ;-) But they come anyway. Then there are millions of people who want to win the jackpot at the casino, and almost no one does.

I'm thinking it may not have much to do with what people think they "want".

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14 Sep 08 - 07:40 AM (#2439869)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jane of 'ull

Amendment: I have actually seen my body from outside myself.. I've just spotted myself in the audience, on a Youtube video of last week's Hull shanty festival! lol

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18 Sep 08 - 05:51 AM (#2443836)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

A scientific investigation of OBEs may throw up some interesting results.

there does seem to be a potential flaw, in that it seems possible that the contents of the hidden pictures will become known to hospital staff, who might accidentally mutter things like "I wonder if he'll see the xxx" while attempting resuscitation. But one hopes they will have allowed for such possibilities.

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18 Sep 08 - 07:49 AM (#2443911)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler

On a slightly different angle, I have been seen by my late first wife when I was somewhere else. I believe this is known as a "fetch" or more commonly a "doppleganger".
She watched me walk though from the bedroom to the bathroom and was quite shocked when five minutes later I really appeared from the bedroom.
On second thoughts, perhaps I'm not me:)

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18 Sep 08 - 07:56 AM (#2443916)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

If you'd shifted reaaly fast, she could have seen a dopplerganger, turning from red to blue as it sped past.

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18 Sep 08 - 08:40 AM (#2443943)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace

But will they release the results?

Thanks for the link, Paul.

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18 Sep 08 - 09:47 AM (#2443989)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jeanie

These are the people behind the research: Horizon Research Foundation at Southampton University, so I think it is pretty certain that they *will* be publishing the results.

They have a very interesting website - worth a look for those interested in this subject. I've had it "bookmarked" as a favourite on my computer for some time - very interesting to dip into. There is a good background reading list on there, too - not read any yet - on my "to do" list !

- jeanie

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18 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM (#2443999)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Stanford Research ran a similar series, not centered on NDEs but on intentional and conscious OOBEs, and the series continued to pull down funding for ten years from Army intell, I believe. The reason? It was consistently producing way over random chance results wuth remote viewing hits.


A

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18 Sep 08 - 10:15 AM (#2444007)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Ingo Swann eventually wrote "the" book on remote viewing, because (he said) no-one else would.

The on-line version of that book can be found here.


A

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18 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM (#2444062)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

A huge amount of information on the non-local capabilities of the human species collected and/or authored by Ingo Swann. Includes the long book he developed to tell the story of the SRI experiments and why they happened.


A

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18 Sep 08 - 11:35 AM (#2444066)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

It was consistently producing way over random chance results wuth remote viewing hits.

Well anyone familiar with the methods they used could earn themselves an easy million from Randi.

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18 Sep 08 - 12:48 PM (#2444133)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

My, that's a LOT of reading from Swann. I'll delve into it and see what he says.

(sure wish I could delegate THAT task to some other part of my being....any data on RREs..(remote reading experiences?)

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18 Sep 08 - 01:54 PM (#2444185)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Paul:

Are you familiar with the methods they used?

Given the known depth and wide distribution of the placebo effect, in which suggestions of cure frequently bring about organic changes, why would you expect hard-core materialist cynicism such as Randi's to be a valid scientific environment for a test of "paranormal" abilities? Only a complete ignorance of the conditions involved would lead one to suggest it, which is why Randi, in this regard, is a bit of a buffoon.


A

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18 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM (#2444211)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

It seems to me, that even Randi, presented with a series of totally accurate 'seeings' or similar where HE controlled the conditions and items to be 'seen' would have to convinced by statistics, even if no material mechanism could be found.
I know *I* would be.
As far as I understand Randi, he simply does not want to spend the million based on reports by others where he has doubts about the conditions and procedures.
I know *I* would feel that way.

---

18 Sep 08 - 02:44 PM (#2444238)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Bill:

Randi's expertise is in debunking people who run sleight-of-hand or other rigged scams. He would not be a neutral observer or a Fair Witness, to use Heinlein's term, in an experiment calling on psychic abilities. Not that such an observer is not possible, by any means. But in testing the "mind" itself, non-interference is a critical element of a fair test. Otherwise it is like tying an anchor to Orville's ankle to challenge his ability to fly.

---

18 Sep 08 - 03:04 PM (#2444266)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz

"...And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him..."
"...He said all Men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them..."
"...Foresaken almost human..."
..."He sank beneath your wisdom, like a stone..." - (para.) - Leonard Cohen

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18 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM (#2444428)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"He would not be a neutral observer or a Fair Witness, to use Heinlein's term, in an experiment calling on psychic abilities. "

well, no...he doesn't claim to be neutral. He is a serious skeptic.

Are you saying that it would BE impossible for someone to pass a test on psychic abilities IF a non-neutral observer designed the setup?

I'd agree that Orville could not fly if an anchor was tied to his ankle, but that is designed to FORCE failure. All Randi 'should' do is make sure the test is scrupulously fair and not biased in favor of the psychic: he supposedly would not bang drums, flash lights and force drugs on the subject to ensure failure.

Are you suggesting that the only way to have a psychic success is to be sure no one double-checks all the conditions? [for some reason, that sounds like Bush asking us to 'take his word' that he will act in our best interests]

All I am saying is that IF a test succeeds, even after being designed by Randi, that would be pretty strong circumstantial evidence. It is NOT saying that all examples NOT monitored are false or faked.

---

18 Sep 08 - 07:54 PM (#2444547)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

No, I am not suggesting that, Bill. Simply that it is one thing to neutrally and scientifically verify things and another thing altogether to go into the test environment for the testing of the capabilities of directed attention, with a hostile attention directed toward disproving it. This would be like contaminating a chemical test by blowing clouds of some other chemical into the lab--it compromises the environment of that which is being tested.


A

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19 Sep 08 - 04:04 AM (#2444790)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

Amos: all Randi requires is a proven effect beyond chance, under circumstances which preclude cheating (accidental or deliberate). You'll admit there are deliberate cheats; you might be surprised how sympathetic he is to people who believe sincerely in their spiritual powers, and are amazed and deflated when they don't "work" when simple precautions like double- blind testing are used. If there's an effect, it qualifies for a million dollars, which is his bet that such spiritual powers don't in fact exist. You'll find a lot of whinging about Randi on the net; much of it comes from candidates who complain that they haven't been allowed to set particular conditions which would allow them to cheat.

---

19 Sep 08 - 01:10 PM (#2445184)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

thanks, Paul, for stating it clearly.

Amos..."with a hostile attention directed toward disproving it"
I don't think 'hostile' is a apt word. Remember, any test worth its salt MUST have some control over conditions. If a subject interprets all attention designed to be comprehensive as 'hostile', how can fair testing EVER be done?

If those who claim any sort of psychic experiences are content to just 'share experiences' with others who also 'believe', I guess all this debate is irrelevant, but many DO assert that those of us who have not had these experiences 'ought' to be convinced by the many stories they can read about.

...we weren't convinced by assertions of "table-top nuclear fusion" either.

---

19 Sep 08 - 01:41 PM (#2445225)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

I know, I know. He is apparently just providing an incentive and has "no bias".

The fact is, he has a million bucks on the line against the experiment coming out positive.

That is scarcely neutral.

Forthermore he has a lot of his own "psychic energy", for want of a better English term, invested in the rebuttal of such claims.

I grant you that there are cheats, and some of them probably have fallen to his eagle eye (eagle "I"?) which is well and good, and I applaud it basically, buit this is not the scenario we are talking about.

A neutral test would not be predicated on "there has beren a lot of cheating on this subject int he past" any more than it would be predicated on "no-one understands the poor abused psychic". In other words, just as a pure chemical test requires a chemically "clean" environment to be honest, a test of directed attention requires a scenario uncontaminated by psychic distortion.

Of course, if you don't believe in psychic distortion or the interplay of thought, then this notion is of course ridiculous because you will argue that if the site is "clean" electromechanically then it should work.

But if you believe in phlogiston, you would similarly have a cognitive twist on what a thermal test should look like, if yous ee what I mean.

This is a dialogue that probably should happen in the open to define what such a series would look like.

I have, in the past, accepted that the Targ Puthoff tremote viewing experiments actually were well-controlled, at least well enough to make a remarkable statistical point.

However, one of the first lines of rebuttal has always been to challenge that assumption, and I do not have enough data to discriminate between bias and scientific rationale in such a discussion of those experiments. I am not biased against good scientific method, but you have to take the conditions you are testing for into account. You can't do a "pure water" test in the middle of a sewer, I should think.

A


A

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19 Sep 08 - 02:15 PM (#2445270)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

as I said before, he doesn't claim to be "neutral"....he IS a skeptic. That doesn't mean he can't be fair...although you seem to imply otherwise.

I am sure you would not assert that no test of remote viewing or other psychic abilities CAN be fair if skeptics are involved, but what I read between the lines sure sounds that way.

**IF** you are suggesting that "psychic distortion" of "interplay of thought" is always present when skeptics are about, and that all that negative influence will affect results, then you have, of course, the ultimate disclaimer.

"the elves NEVER come out and dance in the garden when you go sit there & wait!"

---

19 Sep 08 - 03:42 PM (#2445348)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Well, Bill, I am saying that non-neutral attention can contaminate a test of directed attention, just like random RF can mess up the test on a radio or a cellphone. It depends on what you are testing for of course. It would make sense to me you would want to test for clarity of reception or transmission separately than for robust noise-filtering.

A

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19 Sep 08 - 04:26 PM (#2445386)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"...non-neutral attention can contaminate a test of directed attention,..."

Yeah, I kinda thought that was the answer...

Of course, embedded in that answer are assumed premises that "directed attention" in psychic realms IS possible - which is what we are trying to determine.

Sounds very like "God can tell if your prayers are selfish...and he may have very good reasons for not granting them anyway. So don't be surprised if He doesn't come thru."

When claims are coupled with DISclaimers about testing for veracity and accuracy, there's not a lot we can do, and are back to just deciding whether a lot of reports are convincing.

---

19 Sep 08 - 05:19 PM (#2445433)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

If there were a "God", Bill, why and how would "he" answer prayers? And with what intention? Would it be a good idea, for example, to answer everyone's prayers by giving them exactly what they asked for?????

LOL! Some amusing movies have been made around just such a premise.

It would be a fecking disaster!

What would you do regarding prayers if you were "God"? Give it some consideration.

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19 Sep 08 - 05:31 PM (#2445448)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

*IF* there were...etc... yep...it's a puzzlement. "*IF* wishes were horses, beggars would ride"

Which is the very point... IF one is confident that there is a God and that he does "Give it some consideration", then one MUST have, for sanity's sake, a disclaimer to explain non-answered prayers¹. (God, of course, doesn't explain...in general OR in specific... why he doesn't, so all explanations and disclaimers are worked out by believers. They do seem to be similar, though.)



1)(same with why 127 folks die in a plane crash and 3 survive, assuring everyone, "God was with me".)

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19 Sep 08 - 05:33 PM (#2445451)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Bill:

Your answer is facile and non-responsive.

It is evident on the face of it that remote viewing has to do with the direction of attention. What else would you call it? Anyone who has done it intentionally, rather than by sporadic happenstance, will confirm this. Thus it is an inherent part of the claim for the phenomenon to be tested.

Let's leave God out of it, though. One damn variable at a time, please.


A

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19 Sep 08 - 05:34 PM (#2445453)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

A discussion of this very topic in The Independent who asks if such things are possible.


A

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19 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM (#2445455)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

(You know... a common joke when trying unsuccessfully to get some gadget to cooperate is "I didn't hold my mouth right..". Made facetiously, but in the same general category as serious disclaimers. We NEED answers about why the Universe is so hard to predict & control... and by golly, we shall have them, even if they are not terribly satisfactory!)

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19 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM (#2445459)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

Bill, you are such an unadventurous plodder when it comes to this sort of thing... ;-) Come one, stretch your mind. Speculate a bit! Ponder the unknown. Can't you, for heaven's sake, come up with any ideas as to why a wise and loving God would NOT answer certain prayers????? Well?

Don't disappoint me, Bill. Show me that you are capable of discussing ideas for a change rather than just reiterating your faith in the mundane materialities of life for the 11 billionth time.

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19 Sep 08 - 05:44 PM (#2445464)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"Let's leave God out of it" metaphor, Amos...metaphor.

non responsive??? leaving out God, I did say that "...embedded in that answer are assumed premises that "directed attention" in psychic realms IS possible - which is what we are trying to determine."

As near as I can determine, we agree on that bare statement...but don't see the implications the same way.

IF, by your standards, 'testing' is sort of interfering with the entire process....what are we to do?

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19 Sep 08 - 05:46 PM (#2445466)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

I'll give you an answer as to "why the Universe is so hard to predict & control", Bill.

Because we aren't the boss of it, that's why! You and I and George Bush are not in charge here. Human beings are a small species on a very small planet that could easily be overlooked by anyone with a large telescope if they were a few light years away from here.

That's why the Universe is so hard to predict and control.

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19 Sep 08 - 05:46 PM (#2445467)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"Can't you, for heaven's sake, come up with any ideas as to why a wise and loving God would NOT answer certain prayers????? Well?"

yup...I can. And they all sound the same as believers. IF a god is wise & loving, he would have better sense than......etc... that IF is mighty heavy...

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19 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM (#2445469)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

Testing does interfere with the process, Bill, because directed attention affects the process. What are we going to do about it? We're going to learn some interesting new stuff from it, that's what.

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19 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM (#2445470)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

re: the universe... yes, I agree, LH.... others don't

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19 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM (#2445473)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

so...everything affects the process, and ....ummmm... my posting replies to this thread affects your answers...and Amos' answers... and no one can see it clearly if everyone keeps talking about it...and ...and...

More & more, I see why being a Philosophy major was fun......

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19 Sep 08 - 05:53 PM (#2445474)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Georgiansilver

Just today reading in the Daily Express (UK) that doctors in certain areas will be questioning people about out of body experiences after they have had near death experience in order to draw somesort of conclusions from the research......mmmmmm........ could be quite interesting

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19 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM (#2445480)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

yes, it could be... I saw something about that. I will watch for any conclusions.

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19 Sep 08 - 06:00 PM (#2445482)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

"And they all sound the same as believers."

That should give you some confidence in their plausibility then, Bill, don't you think?

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19 Sep 08 - 06:47 PM (#2445496)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Bill:

Oy, such tsuris.

You perceive things when you direct your attention to them.

Yeah, that's an embedded premise.

It is the premise that makes focused thought, communication, learning, understanding itself, all conversations, and a hell of a lot more possible at all.

'Course it might be wrong, but then, there might be no such thing as George Bush, too.


A

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19 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM (#2445512)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

Kind of like: "Seek and ye shall find."

They who simply do not look for something (because they don't believe in it) are highly unlikely to ever find it, and they probably wouldn't even notice it if it was staring them in the face.

They'd be focusing on something else at the time. ;-)

Thus a man's body gets out of shape and his marriage deteriorates while his attention remains fixed on his job and his TV programs...

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19 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM (#2445539)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"They who simply do not look for something (because they don't believe in it) are highly unlikely to ever find it, ..."

We've been down that road.... you kinda know how I approach that one

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19 Sep 08 - 08:24 PM (#2445545)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Bill, hold on a minute.

Are you arguing that the existence of attention is problematical? That it may not exist?

A

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19 Sep 08 - 08:40 PM (#2445555)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

'tsuris' got me, Amos... I do pretty well with vocabulary, but Yiddish slang I need to look up. 'hassles'? Well, maybe tsuris is built into the very search for clear answers....

"You perceive things when you direct your attention to them."

ummm...that's kind of a re-formulating of the sort of embedded premise *I* was referring to. We do have some difficulty agreeing on what sort of entities qualify AS 'things' and what kind of 'directing of attention' can actually be presumed.

I don't deal well, as you have seen for years, with concepts that seem to be only self-defining and circular in definition.

Sometimes I think "Handsome is as handsome does" is a model for many other profound truths.....

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19 Sep 08 - 08:58 PM (#2445561)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Donuel

I'm out of bodies, Can anyone here spare some?

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19 Sep 08 - 10:27 PM (#2445611)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

I'm not ready to die yet, Donuel, but when I do, you can have mine. Send me your mailing address.

In the meantime, I do have a body here that Ygor brought in last night, and it's pretty good. Just the brain is missing, since I needed that for a little project I'm working on. So I could send you that one, sans brain. Just say the word.

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19 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM (#2445642)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

I hear that 'brain' is not necessary for 'spirit' to be operative, so be careful what you accept, Donuel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Are you arguing that the existence of attention is problematical?"

Amos...I kinda got lost in overlapping posts and missed that one. I can't see what I said that brought THAT up. Not even sure what I'm being asked.
   'Attention' is not exactly something that I think of as having any sort of independent status, but rather is usually mentioned as a 'state' or attribute of consciousness...which we loutish materialists then consider as a 'process' of the brain.

Say...maybe Little Hawk can tell us if that spare body he has available has some 'attention' despite that big empty space between the ears....if so, I need to reconsider everything!

---

19 Sep 08 - 11:58 PM (#2445647)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Now, you see, attention can be deceptive. Even you might agree with that one, Amos.

Perhaps this is what happens to create the one above

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20 Sep 08 - 12:01 AM (#2445648)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

But he seems to be attentive! So maybe....hmmmm....





ok,ok...I'll quit now...

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20 Sep 08 - 12:06 AM (#2445653)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

No I won't...

I will stipulate that attention IS real and operative for Amos right now despite no clear evidence of brains.





NOW I will quit

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20 Sep 08 - 01:29 AM (#2445695)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Little Hawk

Nice pictures, Bill. ;-) I think I know that girl. I saw her at the last Fall Fair barbecue or something.

The spare body I have here is not showing any signs of attention in the usual sense, which is to be expected, since the brain has been removed.

The bad news is that the brain is not working properly in its new host, however....

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28 Sep 08 - 12:08 PM (#2452168)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: bobad

What Happens When We Die?

By M.J. STEPHEY Tue Sep 23, 6:40 PM ET

A fellow at New York City's Weill Cornell Medical Center, Dr. Sam Parnia is one of the world's leading experts on the scientific study of death. Last week Parnia and his colleagues at the Human Consciousness Project announced their first major undertaking: a 3-year exploration of the biology behind "out-of-body" experiences. The study, known as AWARE (AWAreness during REsuscitation), involves the collaboration of 25 major medical centers through Europe, Canada and the U.S. and will examine some 1,500 survivors of cardiac arrest. TIME spoke with Parnia about the project's origins, its skeptics and the difference between the mind and the brain.

More

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28 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM (#2452171)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: the lemonade lady

I woke up in the middle of a general anaesthtic, does that count?
Sal

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28 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM (#2452192)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Bill:

Your arguments in the direction of attention being purely electrochemical are quite as circular as mine.

I appreciate your steadfast loyalty to materialism; it shows a certain perseverance of process on your part, which can easily be taken for virtue.

A

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28 Sep 08 - 05:16 PM (#2452339)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Huh?...ummm...that was a week ago. What is I do again? Lessee...first, I am not 'loyal' to any position. I see problems with certain explanation of some positions, leading me to use ideas like ol' Willie-O's razor to 'hold' on till someone finds better evidence for the more...ummm.. 'arcane' ones.

2nd...nope, won't agree to circularity. Mine proceed from premises discovered and regularly re-examined -- not assumed in order to support a thesis.

'twould take many pages to outline, and you could then STILL say, "But I know better.."

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28 Sep 08 - 06:32 PM (#2452385)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Circularity is not a reflection on premises themselves but in whether they are embraced in the logic used to support them. You argue that my arguments are circular, although you do not specifically point out why. I offer that yours are equally so; they are tested only on their own premises of materiality, using testing methods designed intentionally to ward off any other elements.

It is not that I say I "know better". It is that your espousal of material methods is self-satisfied, and self-satisfying.

Now, here's a question: do you, or do you not, put your attention on things, and perceive them more if you put more attention on them?

A

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28 Sep 08 - 07:14 PM (#2452407)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

yep..I do. Using 'ordinary language', I of course usually (contemplating possible exceptions)perceive things better when I focus attention on them....therefore?

Now be careful what premises we assert are being tested here. This whole debate is largely as a result of MY (and a few others) questioning of claims made about various (purported) psychic phenomena. I make very few claims.

Do you know the story of Bishop George Berkeley who championed an early theory about existence & perception?

Boswell told this story:

"After we came out of the church, we stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley's ingenious sophistry to prove the nonexistence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I never shall forget the alacrity with which [Dr] Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it: "I REFUTE IT THUS."
James Boswell, 1791."

well, of course, that was not exactly a learned philosophical refutation, but it makes a certain point.... We DO experience material things, and, if we have no handicaps like color blindness, we experience them in about the same way. We can measure them...commerce depends on material regularity....weights, density, wave lengths...etc.
   Suppose someone were to file a claim in court asserting that he 'saw' something...perhaps a document...or an event (a fire), and that his warnings went un heeded, and that he is therefore entitled to compensation because....whatever... Testing and proving assertions need to have some standard, but those who assert psychic or other metaphysical phenomena have data that is often only subjective or hearsay, and if they do have some seemingly statistically relevant evidence, there is almost always another possible explanation that does not ask us (here comes the circular part) to assume that the assertion is true in order to judge the conclusion....after all, it IS the truth of the assertion that is under scrutiny.
   If a couple of folks are merely comparing notes on weird experiences, we can shrug, but sometimes we are asked, as in Tarot, Astrology or religious visions, to act and even base lifestyles on such claims. (Didn't Bush say he "looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul.."?? ) ok, ok...I had to toss that in.

So... once more... investigate further, if we can agree on what might be included in 'investigation'? Sure...but turning the question around and making claims about MY circularity "Your arguments .... are quite as circular as mine." sounds very like some political rhetoric these days. (you know...from 'those guys')

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28 Sep 08 - 09:18 PM (#2452461)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Well, it was only equitable. Your premise that the body's sensory system is the primary court of reality is of course a popular one.

But so was old Galen's vision of blood in tides and emotions from humours.

Someone (Harvey) who looked a little more carefully found otherwise, and would have been run out of town for doing so except that he was an aristocrat.

A

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29 Sep 08 - 05:28 AM (#2452621)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

Your premise that the body's sensory system is the primary court of reality is of course a popular one.

You really need to read up on the scientific investigations of neuropsychology and the nervous system that have occupied the last 200 years or so (coincidentally, my son is currently postgraduate research on the history of this field). Most importantly, chemical or mechanical damage can transpform a person's perception of reality, in ways that can be related to specific neural connections, and in ways that make the mediaeval concept (which is yours) of a spiritual observer in a "Cartesian theatre" simply untenable. As I've said before, Oliver Sacks is a good writer to start with.

I don't think ANYBODY thinks the sensory system is where "reality" is. A billion years of evolution has taught us the lesson that reality is what's "out there" that can bite you very hard- even harder than THUS. And that the sensory system gives us a useful, but imperfect, reflection of what's out there- which is why you didn't see the tiger that caught you.

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29 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM (#2453008)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Galen did ok as far as he knew. Harvey was able to examine Galen's ideas objectively. A fine idea!

If you wish to propound something other than neural activity as components of perceptual reality, we need something **OTHER** than assuming them in order to proceed. Occam was a step in that direction. He doesn't solve anything or DISprove anything, but he gives a nice blueprint for test design.

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29 Sep 08 - 01:58 PM (#2453054)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Sure. And I have pointed multiple times that Occam's premise suits my model as well or better than yours; it calls for one additional datum that then aligns wide areas of non-conforming data without the additional argument of "complicatedness" as a retreat. Both models have to address those areas which are not fully known, such as OOBEs, NDEs, and the thousands of vignettes and anecdotes which point toward non-local knowledge.

Mine just does it better. Yours (in my view) is like (as I have said before) trying to insist that the components of a cell-phone will provide the answer to the mystery of the unlimited communication which comes through it. "SOmewhere int here is a circuit or chip which generates all those voices and stories, no doubt--it's just too complicated to understand just now". Maybe there's electromagnetic tides with humours in them that do it...




A

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29 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM (#2453256)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Alan Day

Many Years ago a group of us started up a new Folk Band.We practiced hard and decided it was time to go public with it and offered our services free to a small Folk Club who kindly accepted.We were all very nervous, but were calmed by the fact that there would only be a few people there so we had nothing to worry about.Imagine our surprise and horror when we arrived at the venue to find the Outside Broadcast Van of the BBC there to record us.One of the producers knew some of the members of the band and thought it would make a good programme.To say we were nervous would have been an understatement and I can say that I have never concentrated so much on my playing as I did that night and this may be the key to this subject.During the playing of one tune I actually left my body and watched myself playing.(I faced myself)
This broke my concentration and I made a big mistake whilst playing and snapped back into my body.It has never happened again,even under extreme circumstances.It was a dreadful night with everything being spoilt by a mistake of some sort.Except for one tune that really went well."Thank goodness", I thought, "this is great".With that the microphone which was above my head swung round and crashed to the floor.Oh the joys of performing.
Al

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29 Sep 08 - 06:21 PM (#2453269)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

I had a deep, prescient experience where I 'saw' that I could have post 100...so

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29 Sep 08 - 06:44 PM (#2453278)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"...one additional datum that then aligns wide areas of non-conforming data ..."

after unraveling the linguistic knots of that phrase, I 'think' you just claimed that Occam favors you because 'lotsa stuff is explained with only one extra premise needed'.

That is called 'sweeping generalization' in some circles....and sure, it can cover a lot. If you don't know how something happened, you attribute it to ....oh.... something like 'divine intervention'. I saw that used just this morning in the Washinton Post sports news where the Redskins just beat the Dallas Cowboys IN Dallas, something they seldom do. So, one player says "I think God must have had a hand in this somewhere".
Neat, huh? It is easy to group a bunch of hard-to-explain events under a simple conceptual principle...as long as you don't have to worry about the existential status of the entities involved. When I say that you DO infer a number of unstated premises, that's what I mean: and just referring to "thousands of vignettes and anecdotes.." doesn't cover all the bases.

---

29 Sep 08 - 07:16 PM (#2453296)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Right. A keen intellectual discrimination, indeed, to lump anything relating to any spiritual phenomena, and equate it to the dullest of unthinking propositions concerning an extreme superstition.

I swear, Bill, sometimes I want to throw up my hands and just let you wander off into the fields of Infinite Mechanism and Entropy where you seem so at home.


A

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29 Sep 08 - 07:38 PM (#2453318)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Entropy Will Get You If You Don't Watch Out
.....of course, entropy will get you if you DO watch out.




Fields of Infinite Mechanism? I can at least stomp the dandelions there. What grows in The Fields of Abstract Subjectivism?

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29 Sep 08 - 07:43 PM (#2453325)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Well, sure you can, Bill, until the combined effect of your deep agreements with mechanism and materialism, and the endless grind of gravity and friction, sap you of your creative energies and you can't recall where to turn to find any more!

Outside the fields of Infinite Mechanism, there are untold universes of consciousness and creative will at play. Easter bunnies, leprechauns and lots of other things you don't believe in.


A

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29 Sep 08 - 08:52 PM (#2453365)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: John O'L

"Easter bunnies, leprechauns and lots of other things you don't believe in."

Like anatta?

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29 Sep 08 - 10:40 PM (#2453419)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"...untold universes of consciousness and creative will..."

I see them at work every day.... I just have no problem comprehending them as materially based.

remember the mantra of the 'Intelligent Design' folks? "I just can't imagine a universe this magnificent & complex unless it had been planned by an eternal mind!"

Very sad...some of us cannot imagine that that amount of complexity could have BEEN planned by any mind. We can't even imagine how a 'mind' or anything capable of planning could have existed in order TO plan...etc.
So, I will wait and slog along - appreciating the things that are, and leave imagining things that might not be to others...except for poetic/literary devices.

---

30 Sep 08 - 12:21 AM (#2453477)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

It's not that you are appreciating the things that are, Bill; it' s that you are appreciating the bemusing panoply of the things, in which you believe.

Somehow you fail to notice your own admiration of beauty as a different order of qualitas.


A

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30 Sep 08 - 03:34 AM (#2453526)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

Like anatta?

I prefer cheese without it.

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30 Sep 08 - 07:53 AM (#2453651)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

This (found on the JREF Forum) may get the thread promoted Above The Line:

Pardon me boy
But are you chatting with a woo-woo?
They're rather inclined
To have a single track mind.

Will you get bored
If you keep chatting with a woo-woo?
The repetition will wear
As their hands wave in the air.

They'll leave the factual information lying dead on the floor
After explanations, they'll just repeat more
Anecdotal data
That doesn't even rate a
Footnote, to be followed by failed logic later.

After "pseudoskeptic" is directed at you
"Close minded" as an epithet will be along too.
Although they have no goal in
sight, they'll keep on trollin'
Woo-woo, chatting with one, what to do?

Eventually
There'll be a rather strained relation.
They simply can't see
Objective reality.
You can be sure
That their delusion will never die.
So, chatting with a woo-woo...
With a woo-woo why try?
Chatting with a woo-woo...
With a woo-woo why try?

Lyric accredited to one TjW.

---

30 Sep 08 - 09:23 AM (#2453721)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Hmmm...more chords there than I usually can handle on an autoharp....but I may have to learn that one, even if it's acapella.

---

30 Sep 08 - 10:07 AM (#2453764)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

THanks, gentlemen--your usual courtesy having given way to the smug, self-satisfied condescension of the overly certain, I will say g'day as far as this thread is concerned. You have not addressed the issues, and it is clear you will not.


A

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30 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM (#2453770)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: bobad

Willie Nelson
I Let My Mind Wander

I let my mind wander,
And what did it do?
It just kept right on going,
Until it got back to you.
I let my mind wander.

Can't trust it one minute,
It's worse than a child.
Disobeys without conscience,
It's drivin' me wild,
When I let my mind wander.

Try to keep my mind busy,
On thoughts of today.
But invariably, memories,
Seem to lure it away.

My lonely heart wonders,
If there'll ever come a day,
When I can be happy,
But I can't see no way,
'Cause I let my mind wander.

Instrumental Break.

I try to keep my mind busy,
With thoughts of today.
But invariably, mem'ries,
Seem to lure it away.

My lonely heart wonders,
If there'll ever come a day,
When I can be happy,
But I can't see no way,
'Cause I let my mind wander.

---

30 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM (#2453773)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

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30 Sep 08 - 10:30 AM (#2453778)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke

Aye, 'appen. But Hamlet was crackers, wasn't he? And look how they all ended up.

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30 Sep 08 - 10:32 AM (#2453782)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Yeh. They daid.

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30 Sep 08 - 01:12 PM (#2453953)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Ah guess thread daid, too...ah, well.... we all said about what we needed to earlier. It's hard to tell who takes it all the most seriously.

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30 Sep 08 - 07:03 PM (#2454270)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,John O'L

Time for a little cosmic relief? Without the discord the concord is bland and boring.

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30 Sep 08 - 08:02 PM (#2454326)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: frogprince

I tried, and tried, to restrain myself from mentioning how much I enjoy certain in-body experiences...

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30 Sep 08 - 10:42 PM (#2454409)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

some like the outs, some like the ins.....and some like the ins & outs.

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30 Sep 08 - 11:41 PM (#2454445)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Art Thieme

Hi, Bill.

The only time I ever had an out of body experience was when I was living in Santa Meera, California. In the middle of the night somebody snuck into my room and left a huge seed pod. In the mrning, I was still there, but stuff was "different" -- if ya know what I mean. I always figured I never should've taken that sleeping pill.

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24 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM (#2474748)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: SINSULL

BBC news reports an innovative approach to studying the phenomenon. Pictures are being placed along the walls near the ceiling of ICU rooms. They can only be seen from above. If someone is truly out of body they should be able to identify the pictures.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7684684.stm

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24 Oct 08 - 11:43 AM (#2474927)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

From ABC NEws:

"According to conventional science, when people's hearts stop beating and they stop breathing, the brain shuts down and consciousness disappears. That school of thought believes that without the brain, consciousness isn't possible.


But a new study launched earlier this month will test a different theory: that consciousness is not localized to the brain and when the brain ceases functioning, the mind can continue to exist.

Led by Dr. Sam Parnia, an expert in the field of consciousness at the United Kingdom's University of Southampton, the study will monitor brain activity during cardiac arrest and test the validity of near-death and out-of-body experiences.

Called the "world's largest-ever study of near-death experiences," the Aware (Awareness During Resuscitation) study is a collaboration between 25 hospitals in the United Kingdom and the United States. U.S. participants include Indiana State University, Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, the University of Virginia and New York University, according to a spokesman for the University of Southampton.

..."Parnia said a number of recent studies conducted by independent researchers have shown that 10 to 20 percent of people who go through cardiac arrest and clinical death report near-death experiences.

A 2001 study published in the medical journal The Lancet found that 2.5 percent of 344 people studied had out-of-body experiences associated with cardiac arrest. Out-of-body experiences are a subset of near-death experiences.


Citing a Gallup survey published in 1982, the International Association for Near-Death Studies Inc. said that 5 percent of the adult population in the United States has had a near-death experience.


Verifying Out-of-Body Experiences

Although Parnia recognizes that he can't verify what people experience when they say they have a near-death experience, he said his project will try to verify out-of-body experiences.

Hospitals participating in the study will place signs with specific information on them in places that can only be viewed from the ceiling. If a cardiac patient reports seeing the information on the cards, Parnia said, it could mean that the patient could have indeed obtained the information while his consciousness was detached from his body.

"In most cases in life, we can't separate the mind from the brain," Pernia said. "There's no way we can separate them out. What we have found though is that when you study the brain and consciousness during death, the brain shuts down. Does the mind shut down as well?" ,,,""Whenever you're doing something that's at the edge of science, people are always resistant because colleagues who have been around have already formed an opinion on a particular subject," he said. "If you start to go against it, people will resist it.

"We're doing something that's never been done before. ... Death is commonly perceived to be a subject for philosophy or religion or theology. Of course, there's no reason for that to be the case. Science should be able to study it and guide it."

"

---

24 Oct 08 - 12:03 PM (#2474955)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"... when the brain ceases functioning, the mind can continue to exist."

That's not exactly what the study they refer to suggests. Since they are studying "...people who go through cardiac arrest and clinical death ..", a better way of stating the tentative conclusion might be, ..."when the brain ceases functioning *well*, the mind can continue to exist, though not *normally*".
When the brain really ceases functioning, there is a special term used for that state.

As I have posted a number of times, I have no doubt that people have these experiences & memories. It is not even surprising that cardiac arrest and partial shutdown of major bodily functions, including a reduction of blood & oxygen to the brain, would cause some erratic and random 'events' in the brain, resulting in unusual memories when they are revived.
   I 'suspect' that future studies will show some commonality in the general types of memories reported.

---

24 Oct 08 - 01:54 PM (#2475059)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Hell, past studies already have, Bill. Read up on Kubler Ross, for example.


A

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24 Oct 08 - 02:04 PM (#2475065)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: bobad

"What we have found though is that when you study the brain and consciousness during death, the brain shuts down."

It is conceivable that there remains, for some time, residual brain activity that is not measurable with existing technology.

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24 Oct 08 - 02:08 PM (#2475070)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

I think the logic of "SInce OOB is impossible because the brain causes consciousness, the premise that these experiences occurred during brain death must be false. Therefore there must be an undetected but operational layer of brain activity which will continue to support the thesis that all consciousness is born from brain activity." to be illogical, circular, and disingenuous. The brain flatlines and something you don't want to see happen occurs. Therefore hte brain didn't flatline. Talk about Occam's razor!!

See, the thing about Occam is he didn't duiscuss the case where the "simplest explanation" is straight denial.



A

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24 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM (#2475074)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: SINSULL

If a person "dies" and can then identify the objects pictured above, it would open some interesting doors.

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24 Oct 08 - 03:17 PM (#2475145)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Donuel

I try to get out of my body when I have a migraine.

Standing up most of the night helps almost as much as a very hot shower.

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25 Jul 10 - 01:48 PM (#2951944)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Is ordinary consciousness just an illusion? Marilynne Robinson takes aim at reductionist Òparascience.Ó

By DAVID B HART
Friday, July 9, 2010

An interesting book review on an interesting new site called Big Questions Online discusses the book called "Absence of Mind" by Marilynne Robinson based on her 2009 Lecture series.

The full article is here. An excerpt:

"The chief purpose of Absence of Mind Ñ the published version of Marilynne RobinsonÕs splendid Terry Lectures, delivered at Yale in 2009 Ñ is to raise a protest against all those modern, reductively materialist accounts of human consciousness that systematically exclude the testimony of subjectivity, of inner experience, from their understanding of the sources and impulses of the mind. Its targets are all the major schools of reductionism (Freudianism, Marxism, Darwinism), but also all the currently popular champions of the reductionist cause (Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker, E.O. Wilson, and so on). It is, in simple terms, a robust defense of the dignity and irreducible mystery of human conscience, personal identity, and self-awareness; and, as such, it is a stirring success.
If, though, I had to come up with some complaint to make against the book, I suppose I could fret for a few moments that its rhetorical power might possibly distract many readers from the cogency of its arguments. Ours is the age of ÒbulletÓ headings, after all, and expository prose is expected to come in bland, easily digestible fragments, composed entirely of short, often repetitious declamatory sentences. There is some danger, consequently, that RobinsonÕs literary grace Ñ the expressive force of her language, the dense economy of her sentences, the fluidity with which she moves from point to point Ñ will be mistaken by some as willful obscurity, or resented as a cruel tax upon their patience.

It would, however, be a dark day for civilization if writers of RobinsonÕs gifts could be swayed by complaints of that sort. In point of fact, much of the joy of reading Robinson comes from her ability to translate complex ideas into words suited to their subtleties. Beginning with her remarkable debut novel Housekeeping (1980), all of her work, fiction and essays alike, has been marked by a luminous intelligence and a rather attractive intellectual severity, communicated in a language that wastes no words and that demands attentiveness. Absence of Mind is a short book, but also an intensely reflective and penetrating one, and it offers considerable rewards for anyone willing to read it carefully, and to think along with it. For all its brevity, it makes its case with surprising comprehensiveness."

A.

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25 Jul 10 - 05:20 PM (#2952057)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

"...NO reason to believe that any non-corporeal part of me can leave the corporeal parts of me.)" Bill D, September 8

Bill, can you expound on that belief a bit? Are you saying that you cannot *visualize* something that is not in front of you physically? Or that your sense of *memory* doesn't function? Or that you are unable to 'see' what the finished bowl should like when you have a burl in your hands?

See, I don't understand the process but I am of the mind (no pun intended) that the intangible is as real as the physical.

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26 Jul 10 - 05:25 AM (#2952300)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,Patsy Warren

I believe I did have an OBE when my son was born. It was a difficult labour which ended in an emergency C. Section because the contactions were dying away and baby distressed. When I did go under I saw what I though was me looking down on my body with all the doctors and nurses stood around me. I could even see the clock on the wall. I was taken to a recovery room separate from everyone else in case me or my baby didn't make it and my son was taken to the special care unit. Perhaps it was because of the the drugs I was given made it appear like that but it did seem so real and I remember every detail.

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26 Jul 10 - 08:30 AM (#2952384)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,I remember

this topic has come up before..

shycat's out of body experience

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27 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM (#2953167)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

A scientist in brain research contemplates possibilities--a very entertaining article on the Ancient Argument.

A

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27 Jul 10 - 11:08 AM (#2953187)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Eagleman is the kind of scientist I love.

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27 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM (#2953196)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

Ah, very entertaining indeed....and I rather agree with Eagleman as he explains his determination to remain open to all 'possibilities'. I don't struggle with it in the same way he seems to, but I do appreciate that, given his education and daily concerns, it IS a serious issue trying to frame answers to certain questions. It is WORK remaining that honest.


Now... I will go to the other computer where I sat Sunday evening trying to answer Ebbie's direct question to me several posts above. When I tried to send it, I found my cable ISP was down due to the storms which hit our county. It was about 34 hours before they were back up this morning at 6:40 AM. I did have sense enough to save my long post before I shut down in frustration....

---

27 Jul 10 - 11:30 AM (#2953204)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

here it is, Ebbie: (and after reading Eagleman, you should assume that in all of this lengthy screed, I had similar thoughts in my head)



goodness! That was Sept.8 of 2 years ago.
(and all this was typed Sunday night. Then, when I tried to post it, I found my cable was off due to, I guess, the storms we had earlier. I tried up till 11PM, but technology was not working)
I'll confess (or brag *grin*) that when a thread like this is refreshed, I usually re-read the whole thing before I look at the latest posts. I just spent most of 2 hours doing that. I really like to have the sense of it all before I comment.



Ebbie, your question is aimed at my very first comment, which is a bit unusual. I would have thought that 20-30 other posts mostly explained my position...but....briefly: Sure...I admit that I can *visualize* something that is not physically in front of me. I can, right now, 'see' you...or Amos in "my mind's eye"... that is what memory is about. I'd be a sad fellow without that ability. Memory enables us to 'proceed' from day to day and enlarge on what we did on previous days.
   But your question is pointed at the notion of the difference...or non-difference of 'reality' when referring to 'intangible' **things** (to use the most neutral term I can manage right now).
It's really pretty simple what I think about the issue, although as always, I can't both express AND explain--with relevant disclaimers & qualifications-- the differences in any short, pithy aphorism worthy of a wall plaque.

If I 'see' a cow (in a situation where I could touch or photograph the cow), that is a common 'experience' most of us share....even though no 2 cows are exactly the same. We extrapolate enough data and common concepts (done thru what is called "ostensive definition") that we don't have to question each other about 'cowness' (usually).
Now... next day, I tell you I saw a cow. In that first moment, MY 'image' of a cow and yours may be quite different, as YOU may have had experience with Gurnseys, while I saw a Holstein. But, if we discuss it, and I add descriptions of size, color..etc, your 'image' may change as you revise it with MY data and description, until you might possibly be able to go the field and find the very cow *I* saw...even among slightly similar cows.
Now...in all those words we exchanged, what is 'real'? Isn't it just memories of 'cow features' and colors and spatial sizes that we compare? Are those memories 'real'? Well, sure...but neither of us would claim (I hope) that we "had a cow in our head". We share words which we both agree on that relate to certain features of 'cowness'. (If I told you about a cow in Swahili, or Urdu...or American Sign Language, would we still share the same images?)

So...all those words to say that we are able to um.... 'form a picture' in our minds/heads/brains...whatever... to discuss cows. Pretty easy...not much to argue over so far.
Now, suppose I tell you I saw a 'stippleplunger' ...what is in your head? Do you see anything? Perhaps a toilet plunger that has been stippled? Maybe I tell you it is a part for an obsolete machine that very few have ever seen. (It's not...but maybe fuzzy beginnings of images swirl in your head.) Now, I can begin describing one, using exact measurements, colors, weight,....and even telling you what it did. You have the same type of data we used to discuss cows....and you can 'see' that stippleplunger well enough that I could send you to a room to fetch it for me. And you be rightfully angry if you couldn't find it and I finally admitted I made up the name, the description and sent you on a wild goose chase (or cow chase).

So..what was the status of that image in your mind/head/brain while you DID assume I was not lying? Was it 'real'? Doesn't it all depend on what each of us subjectively defines as 'real'? There WAS a real cow, but there was NO real stippleplunger....but we both share a language that we can use to 'sort' the images/memories in our mind/head/brain and re-assemble them to visualize cows..and even 'things that never were'. It's possible I could keep you deceived for years...or forever... about stippleplungers. Does the image I 'transmitted' to you have the status of 'reality'? What answer is there but, "yeah...sort of a reality" but *I*, of course, mean 'there are neurons in your brain that you have now shuffled and cataloged into patterns to allow you to recognize 'stippleplungers', even though there is no referent except in language.
You could even go explain it to others...and maybe get some to rearrange some of THEIR neurons, resulting in a search much like...oh, looking for flying saucers! Or unicorns.....or angels....or whatever.

So is the intangible "as real" as the physical? You see how many concepts are buried in the phrase "as real"...and the question about the phrase? Before we even begin talking we have slightly different concepts/notions/ideas of what "real" means and what the "as" might mean in the sentence! Then we are probably gonna have to debate the exact use of "intangible" and "physical". (as...does memory OF a cow residing in neuro-chemical synapses have 'as much' "reality" as a cow?

There are, simply, assumptions we usually make when transmitting information to each other, and we do NOT always mean the same thing about what seems to be a simple question. In the case of regular ol' cows,it's not usually a problem.... but them dreams and ghosts and OOB's and angels and stippleplungers are quite another matter.

The short form of my answer? "Sure... intangibles are real in so far as they are part of those hard-to-examine neuro-chemical reactions in the brain..that I can access in my own way"
I doubt that is very satisfactory to you (*and a few others here*), as you just LIKE the idea of attributing 'real' reality (if that makes sense) to concepts which you are emotionally committed. You are not alone...probably more people agree with you than with me...(possibly because it is SO durned much work to sort out all the implications of viewing it my way...*grin*. It's a lot easier to just use the common phrase "well, it's real TO ME!")

(I am suddenly remembering that phrase used so often in college courses, "But, I don't have TIME to write a short paper!")

As Bill Clinton said, "It all depends on what you mean by 'is'."

---

27 Jul 10 - 12:21 PM (#2953239)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Suppose, Bill, I told you I had seen a strawman. What picture would youo generate? Suppose further, I told you the strawman was perfectly circular? Would that change the picture? If I added that the strawman believed itself to be impenetrable?

Inducing beings to make pictures is no big feat--it's one of their most common addictions. You can do it with words in the best Skinnerian S_R method, or you can do it with thoughts alone, if somewhat less reliably.

But if you were to seek--as the Zen master often prescribes--to notice only the beingness generating the pictures, and none of the pictures themselves, and if you were to succeed, then mirabile dictu, satori would be yours. Instant dharma, maan!!

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27 Jul 10 - 01:45 PM (#2953291)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Thanks, Bill. Actually, I asked you those questions as a kind of a poke in the ribs, in response to your statement that you can't accept that any part of your corporeal body has an empowered non-corporeal function (paraphrased) . I meant to be pointing out that we all daily utilize the non-corporeal.

(Incidentally, why do we say corporeal body? Is there another kind that belongs to us? :)

The reason I am impressed by David Eagleman's approach is that it points to my belief that we should all incorporate intangibles - the non-physical - into any equation. But as Red Green demonstrates, there are three words that are very difficult for any man to utter:















"I don't know" *g*

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27 Jul 10 - 01:54 PM (#2953296)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: bobad

I had an out of body experience this morning, then flushed it down the toilet.

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27 Jul 10 - 04:03 PM (#2953376)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: frogprince

I enjoy a good in-body experience once in a while,

if it's the right body.

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27 Jul 10 - 05:41 PM (#2953432)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

*pointedly ignoring the cute responses*

(and we had another 4 hours of no TV or cable after I posted)

" I meant to be pointing out that we all daily utilize the non-corporeal."

"my belief that we should all incorporate intangibles - the non-physical - into any equation."

Well... I think I understand the sense/feeling you are trying to convey, Ebbie.... but the question remains as to whether non-corporeal 'things' really exist in any sense other than as those funny neuro-chemical synapses I blather about. Do they? I, also, "don't know". *G*

and Amos.. if you can tell me, or refer me to the appropriate Zen master who can guide me "to notice only the beingness generating the pictures," so that I can KNOW I have 'suceeded', then I'd love some of that "instant dharma"! When groups of Zen masters and their pupils attend 'Dharma conventions' and report to each other that they did attain such.... how can any of them be sure that....ummm...well... you see why I am such a recalcitrant sort?

All we DO is 'have experiences', whether by drugs, dreams, fasting, 'thinking real hard'...or thru some mystical or ^metaphysical means. Then we report those experiences in text or spoken words ...and compare notes.

I have had dreams which puzzled me.... did I partake in some of that dharma stuff? *shrug* I dunno....all I can say is that I know some folks can slap electrodes on my head and get funny readings when I think in certain ways....and I have no particular reason to assume that 'satori' is anything else.

I stand by my opinion that it is **probable** that some folks just choose the more metaphysical explanation because it is more interesting.

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28 Jul 10 - 02:18 PM (#2953921)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

Thanks for the heads up on "Absence of Mind" by Marilynne Robinson, Amos. That looks a worthwhile read. I too am sick of good scientists making headlines by being being crumby philosphers. I read the inside flap of Dawkins God Delusion, and didn't bother going any further.. What a mush.

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28 Jul 10 - 02:39 PM (#2953934)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

"...because it is more interesting...."

Oh, indeed, sir. Of course, one has to ask what "interest" is. A kind of attention that is curious about some reality or other, I guess.   But...well, whose attention is it? There is a wide range of phenomenology being ignored by the assertion that attention is just some neuron sub-circuit talking to some other sub-circuit in a self-reinforecing loop. Such an explanation only becomes viable when you eliminate the source of the attention. In doing that, because of a strongly-felt need for agreement or empirical validity, you walk away from the real issue most adroitly.


A

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28 Jul 10 - 04:30 PM (#2954014)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: gnu

Ebbie... "But as Red Green demonstrates, there are three words that are very difficult for any man to utter: "I don't know" *g*"

It's true... because women don't seem to accept that answer. Any woman I have ever know either goes apeshit or goes silent and frowns when I say that. Perhaps it is because men actually answer questions honestly?

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28 Jul 10 - 04:33 PM (#2954018)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: frogprince

"I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess".

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28 Jul 10 - 04:34 PM (#2954019)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Ha, I say, gnu.

Thinking back, do you agree that when a man says, I don't know, it tends to be in a flat tone that bespeaks end of conversation? A woman, on the other hand, at that point is ready to explore further.

So there.

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31 Jul 10 - 01:01 PM (#2955768)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Biocentrism--Robert Lanza's effort to re-assess science in a frame defined by consciousness-- is making waves in some quarters.

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31 Jul 10 - 02:58 PM (#2955824)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

Thanks for the link, Amos. Nice to see some *awakening*:-)

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31 Jul 10 - 03:14 PM (#2955828)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: gnu

Ebbie... I read that as "explode further", which is my experience. Hehehehee. >;-)

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31 Jul 10 - 05:49 PM (#2955899)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"Lanza's article and book on "biocentrism" have received a mixed reception."

Now there's the understatement of the century.

Bill D...back from several days of exile due to those silly laws of physics which my cable company mis-applied after the storms. I tried to contact you all thru the aether.... but.....

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31 Jul 10 - 06:48 PM (#2955921)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

I heard you, Bill. :)

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31 Jul 10 - 06:57 PM (#2955924)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

.... hmmm... you didn't answer.














I know, I know...I just don't listen properly. ;>)

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31 Jul 10 - 07:14 PM (#2955931)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

That, or you were just trying to reach UK spellers, exclusively..."aethers" indeed!

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01 Aug 10 - 05:20 AM (#2956034)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"UK spellers, exclusively..."aethers" indeed!"

How do you spell aether, the same as the chemical 'ether'?

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01 Aug 10 - 06:30 AM (#2956053)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: gnu

Ether or.

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01 Aug 10 - 12:18 PM (#2956152)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

personification of the sky or upper air breathed by the Olympians; son of Erebus and night or of Chaos and darkness

ether: a medium that was once supposed to fill all space and to support the propagation of electromagnetic waves
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

According to ancient and medieval science, aether (Greek αἰθήρ aithēr), also spelled ¾ther or ether, is the material that fills the region of the Universe above the terrestrial sphere.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(classical_element)

Aether (also ®there, Αἰθήρ), in Greek mythology, is one of the Protogenoi, the first-born elemental gods. He is the personification of the upper sky, space, and heaven, and is the elemental god of the "Bright, Glowing, Upper Air. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(mythology)

It is pretty clear that both spellings are acceptable.


A

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01 Aug 10 - 01:57 PM (#2956200)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: gnu

That's what I said.

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01 Aug 10 - 02:13 PM (#2956209)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

Sure, but somebody had to get after BillDarlin'!**bg**

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01 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM (#2956234)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

I wonder, given the definition, where he found a second one? Maybe he had an out of aether experience?


A

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01 Aug 10 - 03:02 PM (#2956239)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: gnu

Rather vacuous I should assume.

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01 Aug 10 - 03:14 PM (#2956250)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

SOme investigators postulate that the stuff of life is a true Zero as far as normal space-time qualities go, a Nothingness that has the ability to perceive and the ability to postulate realities and intent. I rather like this notion, partly because it opens up a whole zoo of possibilities as to the scope and capabilities of such a potential.


A

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01 Aug 10 - 03:26 PM (#2956258)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: gnu

Amos... "a Nothingness that has the ability to perceive and the ability to postulate realities and intent..."

Nothing cannot have an ability. Unless... BOBERT!!!!

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01 Aug 10 - 04:41 PM (#2956295)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

"... somebody had to get after BillDarlin'!"

Ummm... what a special position to have. *I* always thought 'somebody had to get after vacuous assertions!'...but what do I know? Oh....I remember what I know! I know that it's real easy to jump from 'naming something' to 'assuming it's real'. ☺

"SOme investigators postulate that.."
Oh, they sure do! Kinda of a long list throughout history. Some items seem to have been crossed out as we learned just what was being postulated, thank goodness.

Who.. me? Cynical & stubborn? naaawwwwww.....

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01 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM (#2956308)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

Sheesh, BillD...you were complaining noting no one had answered you, so...I offered a possible explanation. *Bg*

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01 Aug 10 - 05:15 PM (#2956314)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

sheesh, Ms. Kat... an explanation based on spelling?? *grin*

(I don't usually appreciate those longer UK spelling forms, but 'aether' avoids the problem of confusing it with 'ether', which puts me to sleep.)

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01 Aug 10 - 09:15 PM (#2956423)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

Ya know, BillD, I am reading a book right now which brings you and all of the rest of us, and our endless debates, to mind on almost every page. It is called Galileo's Daughter and is based on letters written to him by his eldest daughter, Sister Maria Celeste. Not all of the letters are included, but the ones which are, are interspersed among chapters regarding what he was doing at the time, most of which, of course, is figuring out how to expound and make public his scientific findings without pissing off the Church. It's really good...by Dava Sobel.

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01 Aug 10 - 10:31 PM (#2956460)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

I really like Galileo for his attempt to sort out 'fact' from suppositions taken for granted....especially as he had to stand in the face of centuries of 'taken for granted' stuff which also had backing by authority.

He was sort of lucky in that his major concerns could be tested and verified.

*wry grin*

(I might read that sometime)

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01 Aug 10 - 11:03 PM (#2956466)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

Gnu:

The hypothesis I was describing is loosely worded to try and underscore the difference between material energy and mass "things", and something that exists but has no inherent time-space-matter substance, in the same way that thoughts come into and go out of existence with out generating mass relative to their apparent dimensions. I do realize, of course, that this is "far out"--I really just mentioned it to get Bill's goat, since he is so hard over on using the time space continuum as his only proving ground.



A

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01 Aug 10 - 11:04 PM (#2956468)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie

Bill, I too have been reminded of you the last couple of days.

I'm on a mission to read/re-read all of the books that Raymond A. Moody wrote. Did you know that he had a Ph.D in Philosophy?

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01 Aug 10 - 11:49 PM (#2956479)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

He also has a medical degree.

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01 Aug 10 - 11:55 PM (#2956480)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: katlaughing

Though I can see by this at Wiki his methods would not satisfy BillD, nor Galileo.:-) Which, I might say, I totally understand. Maybe we each of us get just what we believe in and that is all there is to it...some go on to "life after life" and some do not.

Ebbie, I think you would really like Fannie Flagg's book, "Can't Wait to Get to Heaven." I sent a copy ot a mutual Mudcat friend and she read it in a day. It's good!

Bill, I think you would like the Galileo book.

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11 Aug 10 - 12:38 PM (#2962965)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

"This all leads me to wonder if a perduring consciousness gets to do more than just look down and listen. Will my enduring ghost be a mute witness to the goings-on down here, waving its vapory arms frantically at the undead? Or will it be an agent, endowed with the capacity to act? Put differently, if someone chooses to immortalize me in lyric, will I get to sing along?

Extremely odd queries of this sort kept leaping to mind as I perused four recently released books about the afterlife. Two examine what science has to say about the possibility that we persevere even after our bodies have ceased to function. One amasses perceptions of heaven and hell across cultural time and space. The other makes the philosophical case that "a good person quite literally survives death." "

From You're Dead. Now What? in the CHronicle of Higher Education.

A

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11 Aug 10 - 10:14 PM (#2963357)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos

The ironic thing, to coin a metaphor, is that you keep using oranges to prove that there is nothing but apples!! You marshall up your thoughts and your pictures and line them up with your intentions and communicate them with great intent to prove beyond a doubt that none of those oranges exist, but are just funny-looking apples in disguise.

A

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11 Aug 10 - 10:28 PM (#2963359)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D

But Amos... I am not TRYING to prove anything--especially about oranges. I don't assert that oranges are imaginary... I am calling into question others assertions about oranges..(or some other fruit that only a few seem to have tasted. They tell me I just have to squint hard and 'allow' orangeness to permeate my thick skull, and I will grok the taste. (to coin my own metaphor)

In the meantime, I will have apple pie.

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12 Aug 10 - 06:13 AM (#2963470)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: freda underhill

There is an interesting book by Craig Mitchell, an Australian ambulance officer. As an ambulance officer he worked to resuscitate people, and over the years he gathered stories from many survivors, some of who had "near death experiences". His book tells many of the first hand accounts of those people who died, were resuscitated, and had an account of an other world experience. It's out of print now but sometimes comes up on ebay etc.

NEAR DEATH STORIES FROM THE OTHER SIDE published by Mandarin 1996

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12 Aug 10 - 06:44 AM (#2963488)
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ed T

The Mystery Behind Spontaneous Human Combustion:

Spontaneous Human Combustion

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