BS: Is there a god or not?

Subject: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 05:50 PM

if so=can you prove it, ie have you seen him?
or if there isnt, can you prove it, ie have you not seen him?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 05:53 PM

Yes there is.

If it could be proved one way or the other we wouldn't need faith and that has to be a basic tenet of all religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:01 PM

I say no there isn't... but one cannot prove a negative...

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
-Carl Sagan-

I see no evidence at all...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:05 PM

How do you see something that is within, around, and composing and ecompassing EVERYTHING right to the atomic level, jOhn?

Tell me when you've not seen God. :-) Does a fish see the ocean? Does a bird see the air? Does your eye see the World and your own reflection in the bathroom mirror? If so, you have seen God.

Your problem is, you seem to expect God to appear in a handy, compact, limited form for your entertainment....maybe wearing a crown and wielding a thunderbolt or two. Don't hold your breath waiting around for that kindergarten level image of God to show up. You could wait a long time, mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:06 PM

jOhn!!!! please stop....we do not need more of these threads..

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:31 PM

You wouldn't know God if She kicked you in the balls, Clinton. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:43 PM

Bill D
"jOhn!!!! please stop....we do not need more of these threads.."

"WE" speak for yourself Bill D and not the rest of Mudcat if you have an issue sort it yourself, keep at it jOhn its a free world, write as you wish.

CH

You are alive, what other clues do you need?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:52 PM

Right on the mark there, Guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

well said guest!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:19 PM

Of course there is a God. How else can humans explain the inexplicable. Long ago there were many gods because we needed explanations for the sun, the moon, the harvest, the rain, war, love, death, children, craziness, sanity, etc. As science advanced, most of these inexplicables were finally understood and those specific gods were no longer needed so they fell by the wayside. Science still hasn't found explanations for everything, so some people must still have a God to believe in so they don't have to worry about the things they have no answers for.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:23 PM

I'm alive...

That's biology... not god, in my book...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:29 PM

The problem is a matter of interpretation. As Litte Hawk said, if you expect the creator to appear in some sort of god suit, forget it.

God is a creative energy, not an old man with a long beard keeping records of which of his/her creations he/she is going to destroy. There are those who believe that God and nature are the same thing. I don't argue with that.
To look around you at the wonders of this world and say there is no god, is like getting up from a banquet and saying there is no cook.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:29 PM

It isn't that the inexplicables were explained by science, Alaska, so much as that the observable mechanics of the inexplicables were explained. Good poetry and good philosophy will always shed further light on matters of which mere knowledge of the mechanics does not suffice to illuminate. Science tells you what, where, when, and how. Poetry and spirituality tell you why. And that is the most interesting question of all. (and I do not mean "why" in the sense of cause and effect, but in the sense of consciousness and intention).

I say this as a great respecter of both science and spirituality. Science is the highest means of observations using the five senses, and equipment that extends the reach of the five senses. Spirituality is a means of inner experience that goes considerably beyond using the five senses. Science can build you a better vehicle. Spirituality and poetry can build you a better human being. (depending on what kind of spirituality it is...!)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:31 PM

God is a wonderful excuse. It's also how some people explain their own goodness. Others, their vileness.

There is no evidence that Mumbo Jumbo is not the one, true, jealous god. Refusing that, I will believe in no other. Lord Whitehead

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:43 PM

Good for you, Lord Whitehead. I hope your new Mumbo Jumbo church attracts thousands of deluded Mumbo Jumbo aherents as quickly as possible and gets 'em off the streets for at least an hour a week.

It doesn't matter what you call It. Not at all. It matters what you learn from It, and how you apply what you learn. Same goes for science.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: khandu
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:48 PM

He who beholds me has beheld the Father.

ken

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:59 PM

True enough, Khandu.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:01 PM

With all due respect, this stuff has all been run through, and long, long ago, by better minds than we are likely to find here--

Here Thomas Acquinas' fifth proof, from the Summa Theologica, article II Whether the existance of God is Demonstrable:

The fifth proof arises from the ordering of things for we see that some things which lack reason, such as natural bodies, are operated in accordance with a plan. It appears from this that they are operated always or the more frequently in this same way the closer they follow what is the Highest; whence it is clear that they do not arrive at the result by chance but because of a purpose. The things, moreover, that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent; just as an arrow is sent by an archer. Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God.

--in other words, order is impossible without intellect, so the fact that there the universe is ordered proves that there is a maker or planner behind it all--

This gem of reasoned thought is the underpinning of modern science, because it reconciled science with the idea of faith--without it, it would have been impossible to study science in Christendom--

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:41 PM

I dunno, John. With you starting all these religion threads, I'm really starting to wonder. Are you some sort of undercover evangelist, or something??
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Padre
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:20 PM

Yes
Padre

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:26 PM

Padre-How do you know, ie have your family [parents/grandparents etc] always believed in God, so you do, or God spoke to you, or some other reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:32 PM

It just depends on how you define God, John. By the by, how DO you define God?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:37 PM

From what I have heard and seen in my life's experiences, it is very common for those of no faith like Clinton Hammond or John from extremely Dull to have found God very quickly when they are on their deathbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Padre
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:08 PM

jOhn - it would have done me little good for my family to have believed (they did by the way) since we all have to find Him ourselves. If by 'speaking to me' you mean did I receive a sudden phone call from God one night, (the 20th century version of St. Paul's calling) the answer is no. It was because I majored in biochemistry and came to realize how utterly complex was the web of life. That led me (inexorably, I believe) to faith in God, the ultimate source of that life.

As to how I came to be a priest in the Church, I'll save that for another time.

Padre

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:11 PM

Don't hold your breath in my case MG...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:34 PM

well, if you MUST wallow in this over & over, you might as well have some really turgid stuff to play with.

Not enough? ..here's more. ..and more .....oh, yes...another one...math, this time

and I guess that if THOSE don't convince you, this surely will!

(I repeat...we don't NEED more threads on this. There are umpty-leventeen which debate the topic on all levels, from petty prosyletizing to stimulating theories with reasoned responses....but be my guest...uh...I mean, go right ahead.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:58 PM

Obviously, some of us just enjoy the subject... :-)

For me it's simply a way of honing my own thoughts regarding this kind of thing. Besides, it's important to me. People naturally tend to want to discuss things that are important to them.

It's also fun hearing skeptics use exactly the same kind of articulate reasoning I used so confidently myself between the ages of say, 6 and 24 or something like that, when I believed in nothing spiritual (except ghosts...I saw a ghost once...of a CAT, no less!). I was sure puzzled about that incident, cos it did not fit my scientific view of things in the least. I sort of filed it away as "just one of those inexplicable things".

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:25 PM

Hmm. There went another one...!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:41 PM

Not not.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:42 PM

Who isn't there?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:56 PM

"Pay no attention to that *** behind the curtain

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 12:00 AM

You will only find out, IF there IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:39 AM

It might be a good idea to define "God."

Way too many people in this country -- this world -- know that power (often in the form of one of its major aspects, money) is God.

clint

(And I don't understand why monotheism is considered a more reasonable and advanced concept than polytheism.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:42 AM

The thing about Bush is........ oh... sorry, wrong thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:05 AM

I know that there is a part of us all that belongs to god or the creator - its called the soul. We are loved, we deserve that love and we are not alone. This is a knowledge that took a long time for me to achieve, no overnight realisation, more like a constant drip. I don't use the words belief or faith because for me its a kind of knowing. I started to read about different religions and how similar the beliefs of the afterlife. The last two years have brought me to this state of knowing. I know I am here for a reason, I just wish I knew what that reason is.

Pat x

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:05 AM

SHE says of course I exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dewey
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:24 AM

"I think, therefore I am"

Descarte

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 04:45 AM

"From what I have heard and seen in my life's experiences, it is very common for those of no faith like Clinton Hammond or John from extremely Dull to have found God very quickly when they are on their deathbed."

A good observation, but why personalise it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:36 AM

"I am therefore I think"
PP
God of the Gaps
Paleys Watch
Feminist whit

Yawn Yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:56 AM

"I think I think, therefore I think I am."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:09 AM

not

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:27 AM

If ' god ' existed and was as great and good as christians and other believers would have us believe then he is indeed cruel in the extreme. Would a merciful god allow bad people to kill children and babies for political purposes ? and if you trot out the old argument
about him giving us free will I ask you this, why did he let my old man die, a man who never harmed anyone or anything in his life and died in pain leaving a wife and four kids ?
There are no gods.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM

eric the red:

Your arguement is a good one for the idea that there is not one god- but allows for several gods in conflict with each other...

But I have to say that LH's comment is the most significant so far-

"It just depends on how you define God, John. By the by, how DO you define God? "


I think the pharse is that "each of us define God in our own image."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:49 AM

eric, I believe that when we come into this life, we came with certain soul promises. You have heard the saying, no pain no gain? Ok, think of it this way, as you progress through school, each class is a bit harder than the previous one until you attain the top. Ok, we must go through "hell" to gain enlightenment, and all sorts of slings and arrows of outrageous fortune will be visited on us on the way. Each incarnation is tougher than the previous one.

Or, if you prefer, "I saw starving children and I screamed at God. Then I realized that those starving children were God screaming at me"!

Finally, if you prefer, nature is not cruel; nature doesn't care.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:53 AM

I don't define god, I have been an atheist since my old man died fifty years ago.
Incidently though, I do respect other peoples rights to believe any creed or religion they chose providing it does not affect or encroach on my or other peoples lives.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:05 AM

Wanna hear God laugh? tell him what you have planned for your life.
I've lost many dear friends and relatives in my life, some died way too young but that doesn't mean there is no God! Just because I don't get my way I'm supposed to believe there is no God? That would require quite an ego.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: IanC
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:08 AM

So, Eric

If the god we believe in makes it clear that we should be affecting other peoples' lives for the better (for example if they are starving or being murdered in Sudan) then we had better not do anything about it?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:27 AM

NO of course I don't believe that, but that religious zealot Osama Bin Laden does and Irish catholics and protestants have been trying to kill each other for generations, just don't shove your religion down someone else's throat.
I'm an atheist and if I can help someone during my day it has not been wasted, regardless of race creed or religion.
eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:54 AM

Yes...but It is a absentee Landlord, and we tenants live in the Projects

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:11 AM

When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I
realized that The Lord doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked him to forgive me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:35 AM

I don't know about you all--I posted a very good proof of the existance of God, which also includes a definition of God, and you blew it off---that is pretty cold--

Eric the Red said:
>I'm an atheist and if I can help someone during my day it has not been wasted

Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:55 AM

M Ted:

"The things, moreover, that do not have intelligence do not tend toward a result unless directed by some one knowing and intelligent; just as an arrow is sent by an archer. Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God."

I think that this point, which is assumed, can be argued.

Is water intelligent? Does it run downhill, as oppoesed to uphill? And where is the intelligent direction?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,SueB
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:01 AM

Love the way Kendall turns a phrase - where can I get me one of them god suits, Kendall?

Also love the one about "that's like getting up from a banquet and saying there's no cook." Of course, the existence of a cook is easier to work out, just stick your head in the kitchen and watch them scurry. Hmm, multiple cooks, multiple gods - an argument for pantheism. The lesser gods chop vegetables day in and day out and scream at waitresses when they're not screwing them in the walk-in.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Stu
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:02 AM

Of course there is a god - but we call him Martin Carthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Gervase
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:11 AM

M.Ted - order=intellect therefore there is a divine purpose? Aquinas is not offering proof, merely an observation.
For me the fact that there is an apparent order within the universe - from the periodic table to the Fibonacci sequence - does not constitute any 'proof' of a god; merely that, for example, a tetradhedron makes best use of the bonds of the carbon atom. There is a logic there, but I'm afraid I don't see the hand of god at work.
As for the Aquinean 'proof' opening the doors to science; yes, but only insofaras it allowed an interfering and proscriptive church brought up on the 'because I said so' arguments of St Anselm to'ease up on the persecution of those who prefered observation and experiment to the blind acceptance of scripture.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:22 AM

Why is that ? Mr Ted, because I like to help people don't you.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:30 AM

Thanks, SueB. I sometimes wonder if anyone really listens to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: dunkel_esel
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:38 AM

M Ted,

St. Aquina's theory is all very well, but it has one main flaw... it assumes that the world does have order and a clear design. It doesn't. Natural disasters aren't orderly, neither is cancer.

We are all here due to chance, not design.

mjxx

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Displaced Camelotian
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:55 AM

On 9/11 I heard shell-shocked people in New York trying to comfort each other by saying, "God is in control. God is in control."

Given the circumstances, I didn't find that very comforting.

I have a good friend who insists that God allowed the Black Death, chattel slavery, and the Holocaust "to prevent something much worse."
I suppose if general nuclear war ever breaks out, the argument will be the same.

And if those starving children are God screaming at you, it would seem that God reproaches some people by having others die in agony.

I don't find that very comforting either.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:08 PM

Eric, as an atheist (which I was for a long time too) you DO define God in some way. You define God as an idea that someone else came up with...which you regard to be a mistaken idea. So...how do you define this idea of God, the God which you believe does not exist? You cannot deny something until you have established in your mind what it IS that you are denying! Define that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:36 PM

stigweird... Martin Carthy is God?....gee, on this page they use almost the same argument, but they worship Eric Clapton. Does this support Polythesim?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:42 PM

Actually, Gervase, STA did offer that, and four other arguements, as proof-- and he did say "Therefore there is something intelligent by which all natural things are arranged in accordance with a plan---and this we call God."

You see order in the Universe, the various and sundry laws of science, the only reason that you don't see it as the hand of God is very simply that you prefer to call it something else--STA called it God, long before you decided that it was something else--you of course, are more than welcome to provide another definition of God, or may, simply may want to clarify what it is that you don't believe in-

Your comment that "a tetradhedron makes best use of the bonds of the carbon atom" presumes the existance of other possibilities, and they way that you use the word "best" implies that there is a higher value that has been imposed--

The Acquinian proof opened the doors to science because it presented the idea that there was an order to the universe that was logical, and therefore, knowable--this is a tenet which is implicit in the pursuit of science--



dunkel esel: You said" St. Aquina's theory is all very well, but it has one main flaw... it assumes that the world does have order and a clear design. It doesn't. Natural disasters aren't orderly, neither is cancer. "

Scientific examination shows that both natural disasters and cancer do have an order to them--but it doesn't make them easier to deal with--we are born, we live, and we die--a clear design, and one that repeats itself without exception--(unless you believe that Christ was the one exception, but in that case, you wouldn't be inclined to refute STA)--

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:50 PM

The Baptist recognised the phenomenon which confronted him. He also described God in one word. The ONLY word that holds all truth; he said "God is Love".
Love does exist. Accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:57 PM

All what I have seen here offered as arguments or plausibility considerations for the existence of a god starts from the assumption that there is at least one god (I have never understood, BTW, why the existence of a single god, instead of many, should follow from the design argument).

Plausible to those sharing the assumption, unplausible for others.

I think it is better when what I have learned in religious instruction when I was young is followed: Basically, it is a decision by/of faith and nothing else, a strong personal belief without, but also not in need of, the last bit of evidence which would make an intersubjectively valid certainty out of a personal faith.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:15 PM

All what I have seen here offered as arguments or plausibility considerations for the existence of a god starts from the assumption that there is at least one god (I have never understood, BTW, why the existence of a single god, instead of many, should follow from the design argument).

Plausible to those sharing the assumption, unplausible for others.

I think it is better when what I have learned in religious instruction when I was young is followed: Basically, it is a decision by/of faith and nothing else, a strong personal belief without, but also not in need of, the last bit of evidence which would make an intersubjectively valid certainty out of a personal faith.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:23 PM

exactly, Wolfgang...the very structure of language supports what you say. We ask "do you BELIEVE in God?" God is not something that is proven, or obvious. One has to decide that he/she accepts supernatural forces, and the basis for decision is not always well thought out.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:35 PM

Wolfgang, the religions which have espoused the idea of many gods have generally done that because those many were symbols of the various aspects of the overall Divinity. Therefore the many were in fact, the One, but expressing through many aspects. That is certainly true of Hinduism. More serious students of that religion understand that the many are different aspects or facets of the One, while people with only a rudimentary understanding may not grasp that, since they are more literal thinkers.

The One is considered indescribable...but you can split it up into a pantheon of individual gods and goddesses which then are somewhat describable, as they relate to certain aspects of life.

Bill - "Supernatural" is a word that people normally use for a natural process that they don't understand. Everything is natural, but not everything is yet understood. They may, of course, also use it for something that they made up which in fact doesn't exist at all, except in their own minds. That often happens in religions.

Catholics, for instance, made up an idea a long time ago about "Papal Infallibility", a supernatural notion which I regard as utterly fictional.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: s6k
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 06:54 PM

if there is a god, then he must post a message here, or show himself at the euro mudcat gathering.

if not, i am not going to waste my life going to church etc, in someone i dont even know exists or not

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:02 PM

LH..one of best grades I ever got on a History paper was on Papal Infallibility and the 2nd Vatican Council...

I do agree with one sense of the idea that everything is natural, but you and I may differ just a teeny bit about what is included under 'everything'...*grin*
Are delusions 'natural'? That is, in what sense do delusions 'exist'? The idea of Papal Infallibility exists, as does the idea of fairies... and trolls who eat Billy Goats.

The supernatural simply refers to stuff which, by definition, cannot be measured, weighed, photographed, compared...etc...by known natural means.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:58 PM

What if someone could see faerys, Bill? What then? What if they could see the faerys while someone else could not? Would this prove...

1. That one of the people was hallucinating?

or

2. That one of the people had heightened abilities when it came to seeing a certain spectrum of reality?

Your initial prejudices, plus your trust and confidence in the person witnessing the faerys would determine your opinion on that...assuming you were able to form a firm opinion on it. I have met the occasional person who was able to see faerys and various other nature spirits, and I have read some good books on the subject. You don't see them with the physical eye, you see them with what is called in Asia "the Third Eye". It's an energy center in the general position of your pituitary gland. When it "opens" fully, meaning when it is fully activated, you can see spectrums of reality that are not normally visible to the physical eyes...and there are numerous such spectrums of reality. This isn't a miracle or a supernatural occurence, it's just a heightened level of conscious awareness and perception.

I've know about this stuff for so long now that I just shrug when people tell me it's impossible. It's impossible for them all right...so far. That could change at any time.

Are delusions natural? I don't know the answer to that...but they do exist! :-)

Here's a common delusion: "My political party is the good one, and can be trusted to save our nation. The other political party is the bad one and will lead us to hell in a handbasket."

Here are some more: "My religion is the best religion. It is the only true religion. God will punish all those who do not join my religion."

And yet another: "If I could just become rich/famous, my problems would be solved."

And another: "My happiness depends on pleasing other people and doing what they want."

And: "If my nose was smaller and my breasts were larger I would be happy and fullfilled and find Mr Right."

And: "If I had a 12-inch dong I would be happy and have a great sex life!"

Man, there have gotta be thousands of those stupid self-defeating illusions out there...mostly driven by propaganda and insecurity of one kind or another.

Those illusions do tremendous harm to people and society. Seeing faerys does no harm to anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pogo
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 09:55 PM

okay...

here's the thing...

I'm pretty secure in my own beliefs and they haven't steered me wrong yet and have in fact got me through a great many difficulties in my life.

I do not believe " Christians " should be lumped together into a soulless whole any more than Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus or any religious groups for that matter. My faults and shortcomings are my own, they should not reflect on the next person OR their belief system.

I believe in a loving Heavenly Father and in his son Jesus Christ and many more things that I do not feel inclined to go into great detail on.

BUT I understand too that other people do not and probably never will believe as I believe. That is fine. I do not push religion down people's throats. I only ask that you respect my right to believe as I will and I most certainly will respect yours.

The thing is that you can argue all day long about whether or not God exists but I guarantee you that by the time everything's all said and done, the ones that believe firmly in God will still believe firmly in God and the ones that do not believe in God will still not believe in him. So I ask you (that's the rhetorical 'you' by the way :) )...what then is the point of asking something like " Is there a God or not? " if not to spawn a never-ending cycle of debate and arguement?

Well if that's what you want...go to it. If you're the kind that loves debate for debate's sake well...nothing wrong with that, I guess. But I dunno...basically it seems you're spinning God around in the rinse cycle, hoping to find a dollar and somehow make it worth your while.

Doesn't that sort of cheapen the whole notion of God that you are trying to prove (or disprove as the case may be?)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:39 PM

Sing, "Deck us all with Boston Charlie, Walla Walla Wash and Kalamazoo! Norah's freezin' on the trolley, swaller dollar cauliflower, Alleygarooo!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:50 PM

You can't cheapen the notion of God, because it is impossible to alter God in anyway--and God is greater than any notion. anyway--

It doesn't matter what you believe or disbelieve, except to you--and that doesn't really even matter-- you don't need to believe in Gravity(and there are people who don't), it effects both the believers and non-believers the same way--

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:07 PM

That's true. Millions of people and animals have gotten by fine for millions of years not believing in gravity. It still works even IF they don't believe in it, and it's completely invisible.

People are 100% free to believe or disbelieve in anything they desire. That's what I call "democracy". :-) God is the ultimate democrat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:08 PM

"Don't we know archaic barrel
Lullaby, Lilliboy, Louisville Lou.
Trolley, Molly don't love Harold,
Boola, Boola Pennsycoola, hullabaloo"

..then there is "Bark us all, bow-wows of folly"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:12 PM

Ahhhhh, in answer to the question? Sho nuff... and I know Her/Him...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:20 PM

"What if they could see the faerys while someone else could not?"

this would show that fairies were one of those issues that belonged to the untestable realm, and therefore SUPERnatural. And, as always, the burden of proof is on the assertor --that is, see all the fairies you wish, but if you make a claim about them and their 'reality', those who don't see them can only shrug and ask YOU to explain why we should do more than shrug.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pogo
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 11:26 PM

Yes LH! My point AZACTLY, son!!! {O) how'd you know? ehehhe

MTed: *nods* good points...I think what I was trying to say in a roundabout way is that debating over God's existence simply does not do justice to who and what God is.

Provided of course, you believe that a higher intelligence governs the universe....Which you might not. Which then renders that point moot I guess...

Eh...where explanations falls short, faith takes over, I guess. Me personally I believe faith to be a purer and higher intelligence. But that's a whole 'nuther thread...

Having said that I think I'm gonna go eat me some collards, hang from my tail from a tree and take a nap. Deep ponderin' alluz makes me sleepy...

<{)3

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pogo
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:01 AM

Also going with the faery metaphor thing...

why do those who can't see the faeries

keep asking the ones who can see faeries

why they (the non-faerie seerers) should be expected to believe in the existence of faeries

when really the ones who can see faeries

are just happy with being able to see faeries

and don't really care WHY in fact they can see faeries?



Okay...going to sleep now. Really. I'm starting to see faeries too o_O

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:02 AM

Seems to me we are awful spun up trying to express a notion of something that we define as greater than any notion, and to put in to words that which is beyond all language and even all thought in the normal sense.

Why not give it a rest? You are n't going to get any closer to the reality, or get anyone else closer to it, by heaping rhetoric onto rhetoric as this thread does. Reason being that it is not a lesson of words, but a lesson of the world.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 03:28 AM

Pogo---"faith" can be an excellent thing; it can also be the other extreme--a terrible and dangerous state of mind. It all depends on the object of such faith. Faith in the abilities of another person--or a "god", if you like, can result in some seemingly miraculous situations. When Jesus of Nazareth said "Your Faith has made you whole" , he was probably telling the truth. When his disciples said that they saw Him walk on the waves, they were probably telling the truth too---but nothing will ever convince me that He actually DID. Anyone who has ever been involved with a hypnotist will have no trouble understanding this. I once saw the "Indian rope Trick"---a young lad climbed to the top of a rope---which had no apparent anchorage at the top end--and disappeared. I saw it; but I know it did not happen. The man with the power TOLD me to see it. And I did.
   There is no "supernatural". There are things which we do not understand. Think of an eighteenth century clergyman hearing the sound of a jet engine above him, and looking up, seeing a jet propelled airliner. What would he have made of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:04 AM

Little Hawk, I find it impossible to define something I find impossible to believe in the existance of.[ I think ]

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Terry K
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:42 AM

I think one of the main problems is that people are unable to separate "creation" from "god". Whatever set of circumstances created this whole thing, one thing is certain, it didn't create "god". Man created "God" to fill a need.

Theism (a modern concept, in real terms, given that the earth is generally accepted amongst scientists to be around 4,600 million years old) is the creation of, and thenceforth a belief in, a deity.

And a deity is, of necessity, something that is worshipped. The difference all lies in whether or not you are theist (and therefore worship, or atheist (and therefore do not worship).

Little Hawk's consistent view is a fairly standard pantheism, which to me makes much more sense than the monotheistic doctrines with which most "religious people" have been indoctrinated. I therefore share Little Hawk's view but without the worship element - in my case it's more a consciousness and appreciation of all around me. The lack of a theistic element simply proves my atheism.

Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:52 AM

Guest Boab...Forgive me if my interpretation is wrong..or my definition of supernatural is way out..but I always thought the supernatural consisted of happenings which the human consciousness could not understand because they were above the realms of "normal understanding". So I have difficulty with your expression. "There is no supernatural. There are things which we do not understand"
I went to a Church 280 miles from my home, as a complete stranger. A man got up at the front and called several people who had ailments...not by name but by ailment.....to the front, where he prayed over them and they went back to their seats.
At the time I had suffered 10 years of constant pain after a jaw operation...the pain was a pre-occupation in my life as it was always there.
The man said. "There is a man here who had something done to his jaw many years ago and still suffers pain in the right side of it"
My wife and my sister both nudged me to go forward...I was prayed over in tongues by that man and returned to my seat minus the pain!
I believed he must have hypnotised me as I did not understand Gods power at that stage of my life.....over the next four or five days I expected the pain to return but it didn't and hasn't to this day.
To me, in spite of what any critics may say, that was a supernatural act of God as I have no other explanation for it.
In no way could it have been a coincidence or hypnotism...I was healed.
I believe there is a God! Many things have happened since to cement that feeling of there being a God. As my understanding grows so does my faith.
I can't imagine my life without God.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:59 AM

There's a God alright.

He lives in a cupboard in the back room of my local dry cleaning shop along with the Loch Ness Monster, a perpetual motion machine, an organic herbal cure for cancer, a bunch of aliens and a load of weapons of Mass destruction.

It's a fairy story.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:03 AM

MofA...I believe that it was God..for whatever reason... brought you to a Downs Syndrome child and improved the quality of life for that person.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:38 AM

:o)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:24 AM

Bill - Go ahead and shrug. What do I care? The "burden of proof" only rests on the shoulders of those who wish to wear such a burden in the first place. I carry no such burden when it comes to either faerys or God or reincarnation or anything else of the sort. I talk about these things not out of any compulsion to prove them, but merely because they interest me and inspire me.

I cannot fathom why you must prove everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:28 AM

And the untestable realm is not supernatural, it's just supposedly untestable...so far. There are plenty of things that are testable now, and yet were untestable not very long ago, historically speaking. None of those things are or were supernatural.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:34 AM

yes there is/no there is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:35 AM

Little Hawk:

In the case that they interest and inspire you, there IS no need to prove anything-

It is when one expects someone else to accept something that proof is required, if the other person has no first-hand experience.

"that is, see all the fairies you wish, but if you make a claim about them and their 'reality', those who don't see them can only shrug and ask YOU to explain why we should do more than shrug. "

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:38 AM

Terry - I do not believe that God, by definition, must be worshipped. I do not believe there is anything anyone must do in regards to God. We have free will. Absolutely free. There are no restrictions or demands placed upon our use of it. The only restrictions are those that rest upon natural law as governs the use of physical forms and energy patterns in nature. Example: I cannot jump higher than a certain rather limited distance, given this physical body and the existence of gravity on this planet. Therefore, there's a natural limit placed on my free will in regards to how high I can jump.

Those restrictions are basically the rules which establish the borders and structures of "the game" we are all playing here. You can't have a game without rules and structure of some kind. Except for those rules, we are free to make any move we want at any time, and we are most certainly NOT required to worship God.

It's the friggin' organized religions which require people to worship God, and people created those religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:48 AM

I don't necessarily expect others to "accept" the notion of faerys, God, or interplanetary visitors....I just expect them to keep an open mind about it....not to deny it uncategorically the moment it is mentioned, and ridicule the person who mentions it. And that often happens when these matters come up.

I think it's a control issue with people. They want to be in control of the agenda in some way. They want their version of reality to rule and be sovereign at all times. That's a control issue.

Why should it bother someone if I believe in God or in faerys?

And why would people think that anything they can't "prove" is not worth talking about? Because they want to control everything? I think so.

I am perfectly happy knowing that I can't control everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,shycat
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:02 AM

hi guys

i talked about part of this experience once before on the cat. here it is again, as the reason for my own belief in a supreme being.

i practised a form of meditation which was similar to Tibetan buddhism, although it was an indian practise. I spent over a dozen years practising meditation, four times a day, and yoga twice a day. I visited my spiritual teacher in India in 1976. He placed his hands hovering over my head, and at the time i felt nothing. I went through a difficult time from 1978 - 82, for various reasons, with my health and a bad marriage. the marriage had fallen apart the week before. I went to a group meditation, one evening a few days later. this is my experience:

At the beginning of the meditation, I had a feeling or perception that my spiritual teacher (who was in India at the time) had entered the room and walked across to me. I felt his hands hovering over my head, just as he had done when I visited him six years earluier. I meditated, eyes closed, concentrating until my mind became so still that my sense of observing self withdrew to a point of non- presence.

Suddenly I am in the night sky, space. A huge ball shoots away from me, becoming smaller, until it becomes a small dot in the universe and disappears in space. I have just zoomed from my planet towards a huge light, shooting through the universe. A hole in time, a pause.
I fly through the night sky, emerging from the closest star, the sun. From a huge mass of burning light that is conscious, explosive, vibrant. I zoom through the universe, towards my body which is now collapsed on the floor. Returning, I see myself in a totally detached way, my personality traits, faults and strengths, as if observing a genetic program.

I observe that I will enter that body, that genetic pattern, that I'm going to be that again, then I plunge straight back into that body and personality.

Now I am lying stretched out on the floor. My body feels saturated in light and is so conscious, and I am so drunk with ecstasy, that I cannot move. My mind is not limited to a point within my skull. My whole body is conscious and my mind is perceiving from my whole body. My body is made up of a sea of atoms/cells, each cell is glowing with golden light. Each cell is its own conscious entity. Each cell of my body is consciously perceiving. My mind is dwelling in my body, a sea of billions of little minds.

My three month old daughter is placed in my arms. I hold her, and she too becomes saturated in the golden cocoon of awareness. Some time later, my muscles are so relaxed that they don't function
properly. I have to be helped to sit up and walk because I can't
co-ordinate myself properly.

This happened in February 1982. It was not the result of imagination or visualisation. If it was i would do it every night. it felt real, like my spirit had left my body and the planet, flown through the starry sky and into a huge ball of conscious light (the sun?), a conscious entity, before emerging, returning, re entering my body, which was by now saturated with joy and in a state of complete ecstasy.

many years later, my daughter has grown up to have a very happy, almost charmed life. my own life was full of a huge amount of struggle and and many challenges, which were resolved about twenty years later. i now feel mostly at peace and feel I've had a lucky life, altho its been very difficult at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:28 PM

alright..once more, and, I hope, simply.

The point is not about 'proving', nor are fairies these days a major issue, but they represent a class which IS an issue. As you indicate LH, I do not 'need' to prove everything, and I do not rush about expecting everyone to submit every slightly unusual experience for analysis.

But, at one time in some cultures, fairies WERE an item of serious cultural concern, and were believed to affect the lives of the people. What do you suppose would happen in court if a person were asked to explain why he/she was dancing naked in the garden in violation of local statutes? "The fairies promised me a magic ring if I would dance naked with them." ...If the judge and jury didn't believe in fairies, it would be a problem.

Today, we have other things which are 'beliefs' which are items of moderate to serious concern. Fortune tellers extract money from people by claiming to 'see' things in crystal balls. (moderate concern) Practictioners of 'alternative medicine' dilute herbs & suppliments to one part in a billion and sell them as 'cures'. (moderate to serious concern). Murders are committed "because God told me to!" (or voices, or whatever) (pretty serious concern). And entire nations and cultures engage in atrocities and war based on various belief systems or distortions of belief systems .."don't worry about blowing yourself up...you will go directly to Paradise"..."God is on our side" (pretty damn serious concern?) Various hoaxes which require gullibility are perpetrated every day, some by folks who actually believe what they say..(is it still a hoax?...ask victims who figger out the truth too late)

We teach children various things to keep them safe (until they are old enough to figure it out for themselves, hopefully)..."Stay away from bottles which have Mr. Yuck on them" "Don't talk to strangers when I am not there." We don't try to explain all the details...we expect them to BELIEVE us until they learn discernment.

But we do so very little in teaching the basic rules of reason and understanding, because if we did, the kids would be questioning other things.."ummm..how do I KNOW there is a Paradise and that Allah will take me there if I kill some of our 'enemies'?" "Are you sure that if I take extract of peach pits and put magnets in my shoes, I won't have to undergo that nasty, expensive cancer treatment?"

I could, of course, go on.....but that, briefly, is why I keep hoping that people will begin to see the subtler points about what the difference is between 'believing' and 'knowing', and why I remind folks that IF they make claims about their experiences that might affect others, even indirectly, they need to be clear about that difference. *IF* you might be wrong, and you influence others to belive as you do, without YOUR experience, you might be perpetuating a myth with consequences far worse than dancing naked with the fairies.

The real point is, careless belief is a bad habit, even if certain instances of it are mostly innocuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:34 PM

(oh, I NEVER said "anything (I) can't "prove" is not worth talking about" It is often very important to sort out..and I certain have no desire to control everything...but I sure do wish not to BE controlled/affected by fallout from beliefs that I cannot share and that cannot be tested)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:43 PM

Shycat:

Yo!! That's what I'm talkin' about, man!! Good on ya!! Best description of God I have seen yet!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 03:33 PM

So BillD...how do you test a belief? You study it until it becomes so obvious to you that it is not real that you drop it like a hot potato!
Which beliefs have you studied and why have you dismissed them?. A belief is a belief whether you care for it or not...Your words cannot change beliefs.
You say "I sure do not wish to be controlled/affected by fallout from beliefs that I cannot share and cannot be tested". So what does it take for you to believe anything???. If the news tells you a hurricane is approaching you(wherever you are) which could wipe out all your community, what would you do?......it cannot be tested or proved that it will happen but can be predicted by modern technology which we all know may be accurate or not. From what you say though, you would know the answer because you are not controlled/affected which means you have all the answers...I wish I did.
There are things I believe which some on the Cat will try to destroy or put down, because their framework of life does not allow for it...( proven by reactions on other threads). What would I have to do to prove my belief to you?. You, as for all other Catters choose what you believe, so get on with it...if your beliefs are right all will be well...if they are not..they perhaps won't.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM

100

I bless you all my children

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:45 PM

Thank you God...is that really you????

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

I'm sorry, Georgiansilver, but you have missed a couple of the points I made and distorted others.

I can certainly test news about hurricanes, both by photographs and by reliability of the predictions the news brings me. I, personally, get the leftover rains from these storms, and I see pictures of the damage done elsewhere. We are not arguing about whether I am obligated to doubt everything because I doubt some things.

I have studied MANY beliefs, and though I have not necessarily disPROVED them, I have dismissed some because they turned out to be hoaxes (like the gentle one of Santa Claus) and others because there were conflicting beliefs which could not ALL be true, and others because they required me to ignore other things I did know to be true.

As to being affected by others beliefs...suppose YOU were told that "the earth is the center of the Universe, and no other theory will be tolerated"? This happened to Galileo, and it certainly affected him! Giordano Bruno also had problems making HIS ideas fit with any of the church leaders of the times, and it got him burned at the stake, even though his ideas were closer to the Church than to Galileo.

Today there are still those who would impose their beliefs on the rest of society if they could, and that they can't does not make them 'right', and neither does NOT trying to impose on others.
   I 'mostly' agree that, as you say, " A belief is a belief whether you care for it or not...Your words cannot change beliefs."...but what I write MAY eventually affect how someone thinks or believes, just as your witnessing and being a good example for your beliefs MAY help others to believe similarly. But, with this situation, we need a system where the rights of both sides can be respected. This should not be a matter for 'majority rule'-- I am sure that if 99% of your country became atheists, you would at least like the privilege of continuing to worship in your way....and if 99% of my country became Christians, I should still have the right to not be intimidated by the majority and have their reasoning preached directly at me, in school, at ball games, or any where else!

I advocate a type of testing/reasoning/thinking that allows you to believe anything you wish, but which still makes clear that certain beliefs are ONLY beliefs. Subjective experiences like that written about so clearly by shycat above cannot be ignored--the experience was real...but it WAS subjective, and literally, **no one knows** how or why it happened or whether it has more 'reality' than the intense dream I had last night. I think I can explain how experiences like dreams and 'out of body' experiences like shycat's (and other's) might happen, but I certainly can't PROVE it....and I am not trying to. She felt this intensely, and it meant something to her, whether it was real or not. So do my dreams! They are MINE, and I see aspects of me in them...but I do not claim that my dreams come FROM anywhere but inside me...because I can't defend that position!

I don't know if all that makes any difference....you may never agree with me, but I sure hate being misunderstood and my ideas mis-represented!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:42 PM

So please, with your infinite knowledge BillD. Disprove Christianity. With of course the great knowledge you have of the subject as with other things....I wait with anticipation.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:09 PM

BillD.-bottom line is, if it is illegal to dance naked around the fountain, and you did it, you will have to pay the fine, whether you did it because faeries told you to, or for serious reasons(like to get your state nudist lisense)--

As to the fortune teller, it is my money, and I can spend it however I want--As to homeopathy, it's cheap, it often works, and it doesn't kill nearly as many people as conventional medicine does--As to the suicide bombers, maybe you believe that is why they are killing themselves, but that doesn't make it so--

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:28 PM

Georgiansilver...you continue to miss my point, but now you are doing so with sarcams added....I have no infinite knowlege. I have no need to disprove Christanity--I never tried to. I am not convinced by it, but I see why othere might be. I am quite willing to co-exist with Christians, I just do not wish to have tenets of ANY religion directly introduced in the laws and practices of my country...right now, they ARE in many places.

M. Ted..yes, I'd have to pay the fine, but that has little relation to the point.

Yes, you have the choice of spending your money anyway you want, but if you KNEW there was a hoax involved, you'd probably rather not, and you might want others protected.

I have watched documentaries with interviews with young Muslims who SAID that they believed that suicide in the 'cause' was right, and other explanations by experts who explained it in deatil....I didn't invent the idea....

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:33 PM

Nor did God!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:35 PM

BillD...where are these tenets being introduced as law....please? and what are these laws? Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:43 PM

Aren't jurors sworn in by placing their hand on the bible, maybe that can be declined though?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:47 PM

It can be declined if the persons belief allows for it. Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:47 PM

Jurors have the choice of taking an oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:56 PM

Thanks you are quicker than googling!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:59 PM

In case that 'there is no god' is the wrong response why do all posters seem to believe that there is one one of them?

Why is it always the dichotomy one-none and not the question 'how many' with none or one just being two possible of many responses?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Uncertain...
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:58 PM

If im not religous, or just unsure about what lies ahead, Being a generally nice person, would that send me to hell rather than heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:30 AM

Georgiansilver...I believe you are in England? Doesn't the Church of England rule in various secular matters? (I could be wrong about this, but I do remember hearing that England has an 'official' church..)

In the USA, beside having "In God We Trust" on our money and "one nation under God" recently inserted into our Pledge of Allegience, we also have prayers offered at the opening of Congress, 'usually' straight Christian ones.....and in various Southern states, admonishments against prayer and religious teaching in public schools are routinely ignored, and specifically Christian prayers are offered over loudspeakers at ballgames. Add to this the practice of the current administration of promoting "Faith based inititives", wherein religious organizations(almost always 'conservative' organizations) get public money to "do good works"...and note that some science and medicine is severely restricted based primarily on 'moral' grounds which gets its definition from conservative religious principles. (Stem cell research is largely banned because of religious fears about 'souls', as are many abortion procedures).....

If it was not after midnight here, I could point to other laws, practices, Presidental 'decrees', court appointments, official negligence and local laws that support what I say...(In the state of Utah, the Mormon church manages to influence the law to forbid the sale of not only alcohol, but also tea and coffee in many public places...not just to Mormons, but to anyone.

I, obviously, do not care for these intrusive practices, whether they are DIRECT laws or simple intimidation. If I were in charge, YOU could worship as you pleased, avoid alcohol, not have abortions, and give your money to any church you wished....now, if YOU were in charge, could I buy alcohol, refuse to say "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegience, indulge in medical abortion when it seemed necessary and allow stem cell research on the aborted fetus and refuse to have my taxes go to religious groups?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:44 AM

My research has led me to the strong suspicion that God and the cosmos are one and the same. The creation and the creator. A self-regulating organism.
This of course requires intelligence, but not intelligence as we would be able to understand it, one that is quite beyond our comprehension.
In my model the cosmos keeps itself in balance by constant ebb and flow - where there is life there is change. For a constant but moving quantity of what we think of as "good" there is an equal non-static quantity of what we think of as "bad".
This could explain things like SIDS and other apparently random atrocities otherwise attributed to an unfeeling or non-existant diety.
It could also explain things like compassion, art, etc.
I should stress that these are suspicions, not beliefs. My research is ongoing and this model has not yet been road tested to the extent that I can confidently say "I believe".

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:40 AM

I'm not sure God is the creator of anything. I think we may have created God because we need a reason when all logic and reason fails.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:08 AM

"We" have definitely created all kinds of gods (or versions of God) in our religions and creeds, Dianavan. No doubt about it, and most of them are just bigger more powerful images of US. That's what you find in most people's religious concepts of God...a projected image of themselves, imbued with additional strengths and powers that they feel they lack.

However, that doesn't indicate to me that there is no God. I know better than that at this point. It indicates to me that most people's religious ideas about God are exceedingly primitive and overlaid with tradition and superstition that they have swallowed without question or analysis. They haven't really though about it or investigated it in any depth, they've just bought someone else's story of it.

The only way one can know God is to directly experience God. I have not quite done that yet, in a fully conscious way, but I have directly experienced contact (and conversation) with an Angel...and that was pretty impressive, I can tell you. So impressive that in the light of that experience I would not even consider the notion any longer that there is no God. That Angel was a bearer of a powerful message. One that most people are incapable of really believing....because they feel too vulnerable and fearful. I'm still working on fully actualizing what that Angel told me. I may be working on it for the rest of this life.

And no, I do not experience hallucinations. Nor do I take any hallucinogenic substances.

shycat - Thank you! For a superbly evocative story that demonstrates spiritual truths I have known about and heard about and been studying for quite some time. What you describe is perfectly in line with what I have heard from a variety of sources. You are very fortunate to have had that experience, and you must have worked hard to earn it, I would think.

Bill - Yes, I understand your concerns about charlatans, people being led astray, and so on. I understand that and I agree with you. I share those same concerns, both with regard to misuse of esoteric information and methods (like some you mentioned) and misuse of conventional methods and information (in medicine or science, for example). In other words...I fear the abuses and misuses of the unconventional and the conventional alike...and I watch very carefully for them. Such tricky people are usually after money...or power...or both. I keep a close eye on them, believe me. I am cautious of both medical doctors and new age healers. I deal with each case on its own merits, using all the powers of logic, intuition, knowledge and judgement that I possess. Malpractice and incompetence occurs in many, if not all fields of human activity and belief. So does outright falsehood.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:18 AM

It seems to me that many people have a need to 'belong' and that can be a powerful reason for their joining any of the religious sects that exist. For me the problem is that those religions, whatever they are, have their own set of rules and their own view of God that come from a human being, not a divine source. I find living with someone else's take on a subject like that not to my liking.

I have my own faith and belief in a god, a view I have come to over the last fifty years. It is is a belief that keeps me going through the difficult times and brings me joy and contentment as well. I would not dream of insisting that my belief was the only was to salvation, I do not feel that I am qualified in telling anyone else how to worship. I am happy to discuss my beliefs with others and to listen to their own thoughts, just don't try to tell me that I'll go to hell if I don't follow the rules set down by another human being - I will not accept that arrogance.

There is no way that I can prove the existence of god, I just know what I believe and that is enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:37 AM

BillD. Yes the Church of England has some say in secular matters but so do many other Churches.. What it does not do to me,as a Christian, is make laws that I need to abide by. I try, (probably very unsuccessfully as with most Christians), to live a Christian life by the example set by Jesus in the NT.... and by what I understand to be Gods expectations of me.
With regard to US money...yes you have "In God We Trust" and "One Nation under God" but what is on the back of your one dollar bill?.
The eye of horus sits as the capstone of a pyramid...certainly not of God but arrived as one of the two seals which represent the back of the one dollar bill.....two seals, received by Thomas Jefferson from the illuminati....There was a recent thread on the illuminati, on which I put a website for people to peruse if they wished...I will repeat it on here as I think it has much significance:-
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/
Take a look if you have time and see what has been happening in our world for many decades.
Some Christians are in a battle against the dark powers, why? Not for me to say but always worth a bit of research if you have the time.
England used to be called a "Christian" country and many people worshipped God. Times have changed and so have attitudes....but have they changed for the better? Moral and emotional values have been watered down, to such an extent, that almost "anything goes" is the modern attitude.
I am not sure about you but I would love to see a world where man lives in peace with his neighbour/brother( that includes women ). Where we all worked for the common good. Is that ever possible and what would it take. Whatever anyone might think of Christianity...the message from God has always been quite specific and if all lived by His expectations we would have no killings, no drug addiction or alcoholism, no sexually transmitted diseases etc etc.
No I am not trying to preach to anyone but your description of people...flouting the "non religious" laws just demonstrated to me that there are Christians still around 2004 yrs after the death of Christ and still struggling to maintain some kind of balance in the world.
Incidentally, If I were in charge..I could see no reason why you should not buy and consume alcohol, I do in moderation. I would also not expect you to pay towards religious groups when taxed.
As to interfering with the human life form whether abortion or other....I would be totally against it.
What I certainly would do is respect your right to choose who or what you worship whether I agree with you or not. We all have the right to choose....the freewill.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:00 AM

then, what should I say to the Mormon church? There is a woodworking company the sponsors events in Utah regularly, and many people feel they cannot attend because they cannot even have a coke with caffiene in it on premises....But this is not a major problem....there are other issues which really divide the society.

"As to interfering with the human life form whether abortion or other....I would be totally against it."

I quite understand that you and others would be against it, and I would NEVER expect you to do something against your beliefs...but would you have it written into law, so as to forbid ME from using the procedure? There are ongoing attempts here to use religious principles to tell the NON-religious what they are allowed to do. As you may have read, murders have been committed by extremists in this cause. How can we have freedom for everyone to exercise NON-belief, as well as belief?

I guess that if we both believe and practice what you say in this, we may be able to al least get along...."I am not sure about you but I would love to see a world where man lives in peace with his neighbour/brother"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:16 AM

after building the next supercomputer, all the knowlegde know was fed in, and the question was entered: "Is there a God?".......







































The answer came out:



















"Now there is."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:50 AM

Hi BillD. Where I think that my beliefs are an important part of my life and that I should live a certain way...I could not see me imposing those beliefs in any way shape or form on the rest of Society as we all have choices.
The fact that some of the practices are against Christian principles is not the reason for the laws being made as I see it, or should not be anyway. However, I would expect any Christian group to have some say in any discussion before proposals are finally put into force for anything which goes against the natural order of the world or interferes with human life. In short, Christians are not responsible for the laws of the land but should have the same input as anyone else in any debate.
Governments make laws...often flawed ones these days but they still make them. What I would like to see at the head of this country is a Patriotic Board of Directors with business minds, headed up by someone like Richard Branson....with a view to doing their best for the Country as a going concern. It would surely be better than factions of the Government, or parties, battling against each other using false promises to get elected and then failing to run it successfully. I would like to see a Christian on the Board but so would every other "religious" set up.
I guess there's no way either of us are going to change the world but perhaps we can help to make it a better place to live in some way.
I will sure be trying in whatever way I can.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:12 PM

Just doodling ...1, where's the God of Folklore Mr Nerd?

And 2, if people are brave enough to be computing with DeCartes' spell, should they not first think before making complete fools of themselves?

As in ' I am therefore I think' ? gee what do you mean 'think'? perhaps you might have said ' I am therefore I do shit' also rubbish.

Anyway the obverse is surprising - isn't logic always sobering! - but something rather shocking for a Humanist adegenda. "When I am not thinking I am not" or "No unthinking things exist".

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:34 PM

God knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:44 PM

Littlehawk - I didn't say I don't believe in God. I just don't think he/she is necessarily the creator nor do I believe in divine order. I do, however, know that there is a web of life to which we are all connected. The chaos of today is related to the fact that we have all created a God of War. A God that protects his own and urges the annihilation of others who do not hold the same beliefs. I also believe that God is not all powerful or this wouldn't be happening. If there is one, true God, he speaks to each of us and it is our duty to listen.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:07 PM

Yeah, Dianavan, I see what you mean. But what does "all-powerful" actually mean in that context?

Lets say that I designed a computer game of a whole world and set it up to be interactive. That is to say, the many little simulated people in the game would interact with each other and the rest of the environment in an intelligent fashion, and would have absolutely free will within the limits of that environment (so I wouldn't actually know for sure what any one of them might do in the next moment).

That's what a really good computer game is actually like! You don't know for sure what's going to happen, even though you may have designed and created the whole game.

That makes it interesting.

Am I, the creator of that computer game all-powerful in regards to that game or am I not? Think about that and see what you come up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

As the designer and creator of the computer game you are not all powerful because, as you stated, you don't know for sure what is going to happen. In other words, you are not in complete control.

I don't think God is the creator or the all powerful one that has complete control. I think we create God to meet our own needs and that God is within each of us. When we reflect and listen, we know what is right and what is wrong. We choose to act accordingly.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:30 PM

from my post here of
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM


I think the pharse is that "each of us define God in our own image."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

You just wait until you get home!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,god
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:41 PM

Look here people. I wrote the answers to all this down in my book. Didn't any of you read it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:47 PM

which book?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,god
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:10 PM

the thick black one with the dust bunnies all over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:11 PM

I have lots like that... can you be more specific?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:16 PM

oh, wait- here it is.... Sonnets to my Muse" ... Thick black one with dust-bunnies...

My Qur'an is green; the New Testements are red, maroon, thin black, white, and cream; my book of Mormon is blue, my old Testements are blue and dark red, my Egyption Book of the Dead is a tan paperback, my Tibetan Book of the Dead is tan, ......

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:48 PM

Okay, Dianavan, you are quite correct that AS the creator of the game I described I am not all-powerful within the context of the game, which is what makes the game interesting for me. But...I exist outside of the context of the game I made...and from my point of view it IS just a game. I could choose not even to play the game or to turn it off, thus ending it! That's up to me. If I want to see the game play itself out then I will not turn it off. Therefore, although I am potentially all-powerful in regards to the game, that doesn't mean that I let the fact that I am all-powerful get in the way of the game, assuming I am content to let the game play itself out.

To be all-powerful does not necessarily mean that you use that power to interfere in the free will of beings less powerful. In fact, if you love those beings, you don't do that at all, you let them work out their own destiny.

This is true of good parents in regards to their children also...in a general sense (excepting that a good parent will intervene to protect a child if it is truly necessary).

To be all-powerful is not to feel emotionally threatened by allowing others to exercise their own power in their own fashion.

Thus God is really quite democratic in nature. (In my opinion.) God is not afraid. Those who are afraid will always use what power they have to restrict the activities of other potentially free beings.

People would do well to follow this example and stop trying to trample on other people's sovereignty in order to feel "safe". Real power is self-mastery, not mastery of others. He who is really all-powerful will not in the least attempt to control others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:46 PM

The small-g god(s) we humans create is a seperate creature altogether from the large-G one which instigated life, the universe and everything - the unmoved mover?

Who or what is that, and how do we (each of us and/or all of us) relate to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pogo
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:43 AM

BillD

:)

Can I ask you please do not bring the Mormon Church (which is my religion) into this conversation or well any specific church or religious group for that matter?

Just for the record...we are advised not to drink beverages with caffiene not ordered to and we do not (well should not but I can't speak for everyone :) ) impose this healthstyle on anyone. Personally if someone was to drink a coke in my presence I certainly would not drop dead of shock or knock it out of their hand and tell them they were going to hell :) but I really cannot help it if someone feels uncomfortable drinking a coke in my presence.

And I suspect that since so many people out in Utah are in fact members of the Mormon Church it would not surprise me that a store owned by a Mormon would not sell alcoholic beverages, tea, coffee etc. but I imagine that is the personal choice of the storeowner not a law officially enforced or influenced by the church. Now I may or may not be wrong (since I don't live in Utah) However I hardly think it is difficult to find such beverages there if you look hard enough :) so there seems to be no real problem

Anyways...I'm done. Yawl can get back to figuring out if God exists or not. Good luck

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:16 AM

Littlehawk - I didn't say I don't believe in God. I just don't think he/she is necessarily the creator nor do I believe in divine order. I do, however, know that there is a web of life to which we are all connected. The chaos of today is related to the fact that we have all created a God of War. A God that protects his own and urges the annihilation of others who do not hold the same beliefs. I also believe that God is not all powerful or this wouldn't be happening. If there is one, true God, he speaks to each of us and it is our duty to listen.

Diana:

I think God is every atom of hydrogen, and matter in the universe.

Here is the taosist concept of the Tao. They do not consider the Tao to be the creator of the universe. According to Taoists the Tao was in the void, and was there for an indetermitable amount of time. At some point the Tao reached awareness, and realized it was alone, and lonely; so the Tao created two companions Yin and Yang. Then Yin and Yang began interacting with each other, and the physical universe was created without intention to do so.

I am not a Taoist, nor a Buddhist, nor a Christian, nor a Gnostist, Nor an Eckist, and others; because I see, talk to, and receive messages from the Creator every day.

I do believe in divine right order. If the earth was 5% closer to the sun; we woud burn. If we were 5% farther away; we would freeze, from the earth the sun and moon appear to be the same size of the sun (total solar exlipse), the earth's shadow is the correct size to completely cover the moon. and there are about 100 things we need for life as we know it to exist.

I believe there is a Creator, and I do not believe there is only one right religion. I think all religions are right for some people.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:28 AM

GUEST God-Are you the real God, or are you just another mudcatter messing about?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:31 AM

PS=If you are the real God, then waht did you make ants for?, they are rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:34 AM

another PS=waht sort of cakes do you like?
and waht do you think about Uri Geller, ie is he a wanker or not, and will you let him go to heaven?
[ i wouldent if i was you, he;s crap].

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:04 AM

I made ants so people would not drop sugar on the floor. It is a dangerous practice. People could slip and hurt themselves.

Uri was a mistake. I meant to make Chicken Piri and the recipe went wrong. It had ants crawling on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:07 AM

waht sort of cakes do you like then?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:22 AM

I like all cakes. I pass no judgements. But am partial to a nice moist carrot cake with thick creamy topping.

Don't do hot cross buns. Too close to home.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:23 AM

oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:38 AM

kay.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:58 AM

(chuckle) Good conversation there between God and jOhn from Hull. Very nice! I think God makes an excellent companion for you, jOhn.

Two Bears - Very well put. I agree entirely. All religions are suitable for certain people. No religion is suitable for all people. Therefore, let people alone to enjoy the religion that suits them best (and hopefully they will let you alone as well :-).

I didn't know that Mormons had a health advisory in their faith against drinking caffeine drinks. This shows wisdom on their part. Good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:24 PM

but is it a good idea to insert health advisories in everyone else's religion or lack therof?

In any case, health is not their primary concern, they interpret certain Bible verses as prohibiting it,

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:18 PM

that is, prohibiting 'strong drink', not health....*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 05:03 AM

Morning jOhn.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 01:36 PM

Contrary to some proganda of a couple of thousand years ago, I am not a real estate agent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:04 PM

No gods, no demons.

As I told my kids when they were repeating the You can't prove there is no god they were hearing in school, I don't need to - I can prove that anything you think was done by a god, wasn't, and that's enough.

It is the extraordinary claims that require extraordinary proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 04:55 AM

I had the opposite problem, Mrrzy.
My daughter (6 years then) told me once she knew how to prove that there was no god: Pray for someone you don't like to die and if he doesn't die then there is no god.

Then I, the atheist, on the one hand had to praise her for an in principle clever idea (for that's how ideas are tested in science) and on the other hand had to tell her that if there was a god he'd most surely not answer such prayers.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 06:11 AM

Mrrzy...so you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the healing I had was not of God??? Well can you?
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:19 PM

Is there a God? Heavens NO!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 12:25 PM

Heavens KNOW?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 01:06 PM

Extraordinary experiences do not require extraordinary proof for the one who has them. If someone else wants extraordinary proof, that's his problem. :-) I don't frankly care whether or not he wants proof. What difference does it make to the one who had the experience?

We are not all required to believe in the same things in order that the World keep turning comfortably on its axis.

It's nice to have proof if you can get it...don't get me wrong. But there are some things that no one will ever be able to prove...or disprove...because they are not within the realm of matters that are measureable or detectable by the five physical senses. And it is precisely those things that lie beyond the five senses that one is seeking to work with when on a path of spiritual evolution...those things in addition to all the stuff that IS detectable and measureable by the five physical senses.

The physical world is a reflection of the spiritual world that lies unseen behind it. It's spiritual thought-energy condensed into recognizable waveforms (such as light, heat, radio waves, ultraviolet, sound, and so on) and recognizable objects. The order that exists in Spirit is reflected and reproduced in lower forms of manifestation...the physical worlds. So the physical worlds are allegorical constructions of the thoughts which emanate from Spirit in the first place.

All this goes totally beyond conventional religions, by the way, but conventional religions have tried to express it and deal with it as best they could, while often erring in creating gods that are like bigger more powerful humans, complete with all too human characterists like jealousy, anger, and so on.

Science is the highest form of disciplined observation and applied knowledge that has been accomplished within the framework of physical existence. Because science necessarily is confined within that framework, the science community has tended to be of the opinion that that framework is all that is. They are mistaken about that.

Thought did not arise spontaneously and mysteriously at some point out of inert matter. Thought created the physical worlds by making light...then slowing the light down enough to form physical realities that exist on a temporary and ever-changing basis in time. Spirit is timeless.

And no one will ever be able to "prove" it empirically through science, because empirical science is itself contained within the spectrum of the physical space/time realities and cannot get past them...except by a theoretical breaththrough in the mind of a great scientist. (and that has been happening here and there)

Mind is the arbiter of reality. Mind is the doer, the creator, the interpreter of all reality, and the original cause. Without Mind you would not even be able to disbelieve in what I am saying or have any opinion about it and you would have no science or personal identity. Mind has given you everything. God is Mind. You are a little fragment of Mind that imagines itself to be separated and alone, and reacts accordingly, but you are not alone.

However, as long as you think you are separated and alone then that is precisely what you will experience. So you're in charge of your reality. Totally. You live the reality you choose to inflict upon yourself...and if you like it, that's just fine. If you don't, then you have the means to set about changing it at any time. People on a consciously spiritual path are people who have decided to set about changing their reality...from the inside out.

People who don't believe in anything spiritual usually attempt to change their reality from the outside in. They have a different notion about where the Power in Life lies. They think it's found in outer circumstance. It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:37 PM

"What difference does it make to the one who had the experience?"

well, I for one would be interested in knowing whether I had been drugged, hypnotized, tricked, was a victim of my own wishful thinking,..or had REALLY seen a dragon. The point is not whether I had an 'experience'...if it was intense and clear, sure I did...but that does not explain causality.

" It's spiritual thought-energy condensed into recognizable waveforms".....ummmm, and this thought-energy was condensed from what?

"Thought did not arise spontaneously and mysteriously at some point out of inert matter.".....not exactly- it arose from 'ert' matter. And not 'mysteriously'-- when matter gets 'ert' enough, (like a human brain), thought IS what happens, and experience is continuity of thought stored in little repetitive bio-chemical patterns of great complexity.

Hey....I'm beginning to like this making broad statements that sound authoritative! I just have to avoid 2nd guessing myself.....or do I?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:02 PM

I understand your basic assumptions, Bill. But I see it exactly the other way around. One of us is probably right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:38 PM

yep, as my Daddy used to say, "it's the same, only different"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:48 PM

"I am the Lord thy God is a good commandment--depending on who says it."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:53 PM

That's not a commandment, it's a statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:55 PM

"If God did not exist, Man would have to invent Him"

Voltaire

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:02 PM

"Man, on the other hand, is hardly indispensible to maintaining a smoothly running Universe." - God

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM

"God is Dead"

Nietzsche



"Nietzsche is Dead"

God

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 11:13 PM

Yeah, I love that one... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:02 AM

" Then one old greybeard of a god stood up and said 'I am the Lord, thy God...thou shalt have no other Gods before me!'...and all of the other Gods died laughing."
(I think that was the 'commandment' guest referred to)

....(Nietzsche...Also Sprache Zarasthustra)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:08 PM

On the sixth day god created man
On the seventh day man returned the favour.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 03:43 PM

On the seventh day man returned the favour...by coming up with his own very limited and all too human definition of "God". And so limited it was, that thinking people with a strong reliance on their own powers of reason and observation were driven to fits of laughter and disbelief...like me when I refused to return to Sunday school class at age 7.

Right, Wolfgang? I only went once. I could see that the fundamental Christian stuff was unlikely to the point of absurdity. I rejected religion for the same reasons you do.

And yet...I now believe in God, but I follow no religion that you have any name for. And what I believe in is totally obvious to me, but apparently opaque to you. What did Darwin and Einstein know that you do not, Wolfgang? What did they see behind the surface appearances of physical reality?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 08:31 PM

"If God did not exist, Man would have to invent Him"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 10:57 PM

There's an echo here. Fascinating.

If man did not exist, I think I would almost feel compelled to invent him, just to see what silly, dualistic religions and equally silly anti-religious philosophies he could dream up to keep his mind engaged and his ego pacified.

At any rate, I'd be tempted to...that's for sure. Man is very intriguing. He's most often like an egocentric fish that doesn't know there's a living ocean all around him and even within him at all times. "There is no ocean!" he declares proudly, swimming about in its eternal embrace, and he pats himself on the back for his cleverness and independent spirit in the face of a seemingly uncaring and insentient Universe. Almost deviod of any real meaning within, reacting merely to outer stimuli and chaotic inner mind-chatter, he looks outside himself and sees what he thinks is a meaningless world. He is thus seeing his own fragmentary consciousness reflected in the great living mirror of Life itself.

Life observes him with Love, but remains unseen to his eyes. He is a sleepwalker lost in a dream of his own making.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:04 PM

He is a sleepwalker lost in a dream of his own making.


Charming rhetoric, but this is true of all dreams, I suggest.

Perhaps this also true of God.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:39 PM

Perhaps it is. That is a thought worth contemplating, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 11:47 PM

Ah, yes. Worlds within worlds. Dreams within dreams. When having a dream, most people believe it is real until they wake up. That's exactly what waking life is like for most people too...only it's of considerably longer duration. When they wake up from it, then they realize it was just a dream after all. You can even die in a dream...but then you wake up and find out you're not dead. :-) I know, I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Goddess
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:32 AM

i heard there was a place called Mudcat. i searched and searched. all i got was an error message. i don't believe it exists, its just a delusion.

but delusions can be fun!



The Mother of All Delusions...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,sensible person
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 03:24 AM

no, there's no such thing as god.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 05:08 AM

I kinda got taken with the banquet/cook idea proposed by kendall early on in this thread. I got God in a Julia Child suit. Don't think I could go so far as to worship, but I sure could delight in a God like that.

If God exists and really is *G*O*D* it ain't Tinkerbell. God's reality does NOT depend on my belief. In fact, maybe, vice versa...

I am blessed to have 4 grandchildren. A few years back, once when I was telling some folks after a church service what was so great about that, our minister (at that time with NO grandchildren) chided me with the "fact" that God had no grandchildren -- all of us His sons and daughters, first generation only. My rejoinder was if there are no grandchildren in Heaven it wasn't. And I wouldn't go.

Shycat (thank you, dear) knows. Eternity has already started. Heaven is now. Whether you believe or not, you're there. Tune your harp, pull up a cloud and sing. God's asking for a chorus of "I Can't Stop Loving You"...    Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 06:34 AM

So which Oriental Religion is it in which our world is just a dream until the Supreme Being wakes up?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 12:40 PM

It is not I who must wake up, Foolestroupe! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 01:13 PM

And to think eveyone has been straining their minds on this thread all this time because Sir jOhn tried to type in "Is there a dog"...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Eric the Streetsinger
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:22 PM

Late as usual-

I took the subway the other day. And older gentleman
was there with his grandson. The kid asked him why
he walked so slowly. "Everyones passing us, Grampaw,"
he said.
Grampaw looked over me witha long-suffering expression
and said "Old age is proof positive that there is a God-
and that she hates us!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 17 Sep 04 - 02:40 PM

frogprince you're wrong he was trying to type "Is there a bog"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:40 AM

If you live your life as if there is a God and there isn't you've lost nothing...If you live your life like there isn't as God and there is..what then?? Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Cruiser
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:20 AM

Why live a lie?

George Bush lives his life "as if there is a God" and we've lost many lives in Iraq (much more than "nothing").

One can live a very moral life "like there isn't a God", because there isn't a God.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:38 AM

George Bush's idea of God is as out of whack as Osama Bin Laden's idea of God. That is not a reflection on God in the least. It's a reflection on Bush and Osama.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:02 PM

Billions of people, who represent diverse sociological, intellectual, emotional, educational makeups...believe that there is a Creator, a God to be worshipped. Now, the fact that so many people believe something certainly doesn't make it true. But when so many people through the ages are so personally convinced that God exists, can one say with absolute confidence that they are all mistaken?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:08 PM

One can if one has sublime confidence in one's own view, I suppose... :-) Or if the idea of God is somehow offensive or threatening to one's concept of reality. Everyone instinctively defends what they think is true....atheists and spiritual believers alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Cruiser
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 12:11 PM

Little Hawk,

Why call your philosophy of fair play, humanity, goodwill, kindness, etc., God?

Credit or discredit for any act should be given to the person, not to some abstract untestable thought that gives false hope and reasons to kill others if you "believe" in "him" and that "he" is on your side.

Call your ideas (ideals) anything but "God", because that one word has evoked more suffering and misconceptions than any other word mankind has devised.

Coin a word or phrase for your fine philosophy instead of lumping it under "God". You have already coined one of my favorite words:   dipwallow!

Is there a God?   Dipwallow!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 02:59 PM

Yes, but it's only a word, don't forget that. It is other people's historical misuse of that word and how they interpreted it that has you concerned. What if I were to call God "Life" instead? Would you then object to my having a loyalty to Life, and drawing inspiration from it? I don't think so.

And I do give credit to the person. We all have free will, therefore we deserve credit when we use it wisely.

There clearly is no God similar to the one you are objecting to Cruiser! :-) I will definitely agree to that. God (Life) does not in any way lie behind people's desire to inflict death upon each other over differences of belief. It's fear that lies behind that.

And Life does not demand or expect worship from anyone. It just requires a certain amount of effective participation if you want to secure a good result.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 09:08 PM

"If you live your life as if there is a God and there isn't you've lost nothing...If you live your life like there isn't as God and there is..what then??"

Pascal's wager ....interesting, but there are more than two possibilities, and many problems with the proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 09:35 PM

I personally, though I am not religious, prefer to see someone believe 'just because' than to use an awkward reason like Pascal's wager. If one 'believes' based on self-interest, it is not much of a belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 09:42 PM

There is a God--one God--in my paradigm. The proof of His existence is manifest and requires no gymnastics; I believe because it is self-evident to me, like the self-evidence that freedom is good, that people are worthwhile and that love is more than another four-letter word. There are arguments against all the above, and I am not smart enough to deal with all the arguments. However, I fortunately don't HAVE to deal with all the arguments because I know what I hold to be true. In lotsa words I just agreed with BillD in the post just above this.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Cruiser
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:43 PM

Thanks Bill D for that link (it always helps to have a philosopher around Mudcat). I could not recall the term assigned to the belief Georgiansilver stated. Many of the good, fine Christians I know have that same belief and it never seemed rational to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:01 PM

I also am a philosopher, Cruiser. And you're right that Bill D is one. I like and respect his philosophical nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:04 PM

And good philosophers at that, LH, both of you guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:24 PM

no, there is no god, there is nothing. absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Kaleea
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:15 AM

God? Him? Aren't male & female earthly human concepts? If God is all knowing all seeing all omnipotent, God is either both female AND male OR neither. Hmmmmmm.   As for killing babies, whom or possibly what shoots the gun/smothers/drowns/etc? Humans? Perhaps God is neutral and we are here to learn how to better ourselves & others?

If God is a male, then obviously, he is the gorgeous hunka hunka burning love of a guy I once met from Greece.

If God is female, she is shaking her head & finger at us & patiently waiting till we learn our lesson--if we ever learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:33 AM

Male and female and neither one of those all at the same time is the answer. Human and not. Here and there and everywhere. Your version and mine. Define existence itself and you will get reasonably close to defining God.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:52 AM

My reference to God as a masculine entity is not from that particular conviction; rather, it's from the lack of an English pronoun other than 'it' that encompasses both 'sexes'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 01:13 AM

post number 200!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 08:12 AM

and so it all boils down to.....










post number 200!

or number 201........................

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Eric the Streetsinger
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 01:09 PM

"George Bush's idea of God is as out of whack as Osama Bin Laden's idea of God. That is not a reflection on God in the least. It's a reflection on Bush and Osama."

George Bush's real idea of God is that he's a nice, fanciful idea,
and as such a useful tool to bamboozle a significant portion of the
American voting public into reelecting him. He picked this tool
very carefully. The segment of US Christians he's aiming at are
already half-bamboozled, by the Religious Right, which does their
thinking for them.
The frightening thing about Bush's "cosmology" is that I also think
he sees the book of Revelations as a charming myth, and a useful tool.
Why else pick a fight in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 01:17 PM

Really, what did this thread prove? Has anyone really changed their opinion since post#1 by the guest who thinks he has the right to portray God. George Burns has already claimed that role. But that was entertainment, not soul searching on the Internet.

You either carry God in your heart and soul or you don't.

You either have faith in a supreme being and turn inwards toward Him (yes, ladies, Him) or you don't.

Many find God, many lose God.

Anyone keeping score who's winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:05 PM

It's not about winning. You don't make spiritual progress by getting the "right answers" from someone else or by proving something to anyone...you make it by asking the right questions, and looking within yourself for the answers. This conversation has stimulated various people to give some thought to the matter, and that in itself is enough justification for having a conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:21 PM

In order to continue on a sensible footing, let's outline a 'sketch' of God that we can all relate to in general terms. This God created the universe, His son, Jesus, was born in Bethlehem, the mother of Jesus was Mary. God and Jesus both performed miracles. Jesus died on the cross. God is in heaven.

I won't add more to this definition because the more I define God the more chance there is that we will disagree on some minor point or other. The idea is to simply agree on a very broad definition in order that you all be of the same mind when you talk about 'God', otherwise you will be on the roundabout again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:31 PM

I have difficulty relating to that 'sketch' of God in general terms. :-) It's far too narrow a viewpoint. In fact, it sounds exclusively traditional Christian to me.

I'll give you a broad sketch of God: God is energy, consciousness, existence, being, awareness, love, and life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:35 PM

. . . and Creator.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:42 PM

Uh-huh. People always wonder, "What was there before the Creation?" That is something that one who is part of the creation can't really expect to ever have an answer to. It would be like one teeny little digital man ("Tacitus") in a computer game like Ages of Empire asking another teeny little digital man ("Marcus"), "What was there before our world, Marcus?" Good luck finding the answer, because the only place they can look for it is inside the game! (and they are not going to find the answer to their question inside the game)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 05:52 PM

OK, Guest Martian Gibbon:

Minor point? Women don't get pregnant without sexual intercourse. At least not 2000 years ago.

Jesus is not the son of God. To this day, people are still trying to figure out who Mary was fooling around with.

Jesus was a man, nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:00 PM

And what makes you think that ordinary conception is not immaculate, Martin? Or that the term "immaculate conception" may not refer to a spiritual aspect of the conception rather than a physical one? Or that any human being might be termed "son of God" or "daughter of God", therefore Jesus' title may be getting misinterpreted by certain exclusive-minded people to mean something other than what it was intended to mean.

I assert to you, Martin, that EVERY living human being is the son or daughter of God...and that this is part of Jesus' actual message. So you're on good ground there calling him an ordinary man...but he had an extraordinary degree of awareness of what he was. That's something most ordinary men do not have.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:17 PM

Martin Gibson
"Women don't get pregnant without sexual intercourse"
Correct, it only happened the once.
"Jesus is not the son of God"
He/She is
"Jesus was a man, nothing more, nothing less"
Agreed

Sometimes I believe, sometimes I don't. But just sometimes I have this little nagging doubt, and that's because I was taught as a young child to believe in God. So I ask myself this question: Had I been raised in a secluded society where nobody believed in God or had ever heard of religion, would I, by my own experiences and philosophy, have come to believe in the existence of God? The answer is, I believe, no. I would have no reason to. The next question I ask myself is: Having been raised in total ignorance of any religion or God, when I die, would I go to heaven? The answer to that, I think, is yes. If there is a God, why should He prevent me from going to heaven (providing I had led a decent life of course) just because no one had told me about it? Not my fault is it. If He refused me heaven that presumably means I would go to hell (I don't know of any in between place) and I would consider that to be grossly unfair. And God is just! so I would go to heaven. So, on appeal, He lets me in. Just as He does all those people who attend church on a regular basis, pray, worship, donate money to the church, etc etc. Bet they wouldn't think it fair!
Is there a court of appeal for admission to heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM

What is an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac?

Someone who lies awake all night, wondering if there really is a Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 09:32 PM

I never said that I do not believe in God but I say it did not happen even once Guest Martian. Jesus had a human father like you and like me. Immaculate conception is probably the greatest superstition that ever lived among mankind.

I am not going to even say that Jesus was not a good man, for I believe he was, but I really do not need him at all to get to God himself.

I accept no substitutes, no man or alleged prophet.

The real Messiah is yet to come. This current one does not have all of the world united and is failing miserably.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:20 PM

Ah hah!!! And how do you know that I, yes I, am not "the REAL MESSIAH", Martin??? Are you gonna rely on some rabbi to tell you who the real messiah is or are you gonna keep an open mind on the matter and trust your own judgement? Well?

*(Chongo can be heard in the background saying, "Trust me, Hawk, you ain't the messiah. And Martin? The real one ain't gonna unite the world either! And it won't be his "failure" when he doesn't...it'll be human failure. What kinda saps are you guys, anyway? You're both crazier than a Chinese haberdasher!")

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:02 AM

Really! you shouldn't insult haberdashers like that - Chinese or not!

Christianity is a great plagiarist.

"Do not do to anybody things that you do not want them to do to you."

Confucius
500 B.C.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:16 AM

Robin ... as in "dylsexics of the world, untie!"

(Disclaimer:   not meaning to offend dylsexics, dyslexics, haberdashers, agnostics, or anyone else) ;)

T

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:20 AM

I'm a latent heterosexual and I am NOT offended.

DNA? National Dyslexics Association.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 12:58 PM

It is not that Christianity is a plagiarist...it is that the most basic and essential spiritual teachings, such as the Golden Rule, can be found in all great spiritual traditions. Accordingly, every great spiritual teacher repeats them, often in virtually identical words. This is as normal and natural as for several different people to say: "It's dangerous to play with fire." or "Two plus two equals four." or "Like attracts like."

I don't call that plagiarism, I call it common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:02 PM

MAADD: Mothers against drunk drivers
DAM:    Mothers against Dyslexia

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:30 PM

In an earlier posting LH speaks of God's comprehensiveness.

Several years ago a seminary student taught me something about the Hebrew God. One of the descriptive terms used to refer to IT (using the "real name" would invoke the Actual Presence and was DANGEROUS) comes down to us as the letter string YHWH, spoken as Jehovah or Yahweh. In Hebrew this is a form of the verb TO BE, and its closest translation is ALWAYS IN A STATE OF BECOMING. Its only use is as an euphemism for God. This is a continuing eureka moment for me. Gives real meaning to the first line of the hymn:
   "New every morning is the LOVE our waking and uprising prove..."

Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:46 PM

Very appropriate. God is that which is always in a state of becoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:49 PM

If there were conclusive proof of the existence of God, what would be the value of faith?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:54 PM

Faith is the result of experience. It would still be valuable, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:56 PM

Little Hawk, I asked my Rabbi if you were the Messiah and he said that the real messiah would never come from Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM

Absolutely! I believe in the existence of George W. Bush and have conclusive proof of it. Does that mean that I have faith in him? :-) Well...nope!

Satanists believe in God, but reserve their faith for Satan. There you go.

Lots of people believe in God, yet pay scant attention to God most of the time. Obviously, their faith is not very strong.

When faith is strong it produces results. When it isn't, not much happens. You can believe in something, yet have no faith in it at all....God included.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM

Boy, talk about prejudice, Martin. :-) I think your rabbi is wallowing in the depths of spiritual obscurity, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:18 PM

Ha ha ha ha ha! MG, the only other place I would have heard that statement is on the CBC!

T

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

Little Hawk, my rabbi is a very wise man!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

Ok, I suppose i'd better be something other than a prankster on this thread.

I have my own personal beliefs. I am an agnostic: I believe there's some kind of intelligence at play here, making all this wonder and craziness happen. However, I would not impose those beliefs on anyone else.

Also, I don't think science is needed to "prove" its existence, although that would be fun and wonderful if it happened.

Just suppose that there were folk who were indifferent to music, and had to find a way to "analyze" its effects on others who believe in music's power to change moods, inspire creativity, etc. That would not change music's affects on those who get enjoyment from it.

Well, awkward analogy, maybe, but that's my take.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:31 PM

You're on a good track there, Teresa.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 06:59 PM

( Translated from: "Ungrateful Sorrow (Grief)" by: Rabindranath Thakur (Tagore), in Lipika (means- Notes) : Collected Works, Vol-26, p. 105. )


At dawn shey(1) departed
My mind tried to console me -
" Everything is Maya(2)".
Angrily I replied:
"Here's this sewing box on the table,
that flower-pot on the terrace,
this monogrammed hand-fan on the bed---
all these are real."

My mind said: "Yet, think again."
I rejoined: " You better stop.
Look at this storybook,
the hairpin halfway amongst its leaves,
signaling the rest is unread;
if all these things are "Maya",
then why should "shey" be more unreal?"

My mind becomes silent.
A friend arrived and says:
"That which is good is real
it is never non-existent;
entire world preserves and cherishes it its chest
like a precious jewel in a necklace."

I replied in anger: "How do you know?
Is a body not good? Where did that body go?"

Like a small boy in a rage hitting his mother,
I began to strike at everything in this world
that gave me shelter.
And I screamed:" The world is treacherous."

Suddenly, I was startled.
It seemed like someone admonished me :" You- ungrateful ! "

I looked at the crescent moon
hidden behind the tamarisk tree outside my window.
As if the dear departed one is smiling
and playing hide-and-seek with me.

From the depth of darkness punctuated by scattered stars
came a rebuke: "when I let you grasp me you call it an deception,
and yet when I remain concealed,
why do you hold on to your faith in me with such conviction?"



(1): "Shey" in Bengali can mean either he or she.
(2): "Maya" meaning Unreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 10:11 PM

Acually Teresa, your analogy works perfectly if you change the word 'Music' to 'Politics'... ;-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 10:42 PM

Rabindranath Tagore was and is an inspired poet. And Teresa's analogy could indeed by applied to many things, politics included.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 10:42 PM

LOL Robin!

Ok **story alert**

I was teaching folks to use computers. A woman came into the computer lab in her wheelchair, assisted by the agency's receptionist. She told me she wanted to do some writing; her own poetry. When I asked her name, I realized that I had a book of her poetry in Braille. She told me she had had some back surgery, and her hearing was going rapidly. She had been blind all her life.

At the end of her visit, she handed me a Braille booklet of Tagore's poetry and said, "I have always treasured this, but I think you will just as much."

Two months later, there was a notice that she had passed away.

You just never know who your spiritual teachers may be.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:07 PM

and here is another pice of inspiration!

The Spiritually Incorrect Blues

Woke up this mornin' I was feelin' real bad
I wasn't hungover – that ain't why I was sad
I drank me some coffee, I put on ma shoes,
And I sang those ole Spiritually Incorrect blues!
My little cat comes up to me and says 'miaow'!
I says to her 'Puss, are you tryin' somehow
'Cross the barrier of species with me to connect?'
Cos I want real bad to be spiritually correct.
Well Puss laid on her back and she showed me her tum,
She licked at her paws then, alas, at her bum.
Then she stood up and circled my legs and she mewed
In Cat, 'Forget THAT crap: gimme some food!
I went up the mountain and I walked round the Springs.
I got me some fresh air and exercise. Things
That my momma done tole me was real good for me
But I didn't get ENriched spiriTOOally!
I been to Jabiluka, and it was real nice,
But all I could think of was a drink filled with ice.
Couldn't feel no spirits – but I sure felt damn hot!
Cos spiritually correct – is one thing I'm not!
Woke up this mornin', wrote me a preamble
For dat ole constitution – I took me a gamble
That the guvvament would like it but they said 'Gal, you is
wrong.
You don't mention spirits – you don't get no Gong!'
Well I met me a nice boy – put a bun in my oven.
Sisterhood said Annie when time comes for pushin' and shovin'
Do it the spiritual way – without anaesthesia,
But I said bugger that, DRUGS make it easier.
Well I read of the marvels of deep meditation
How it leads to nirvana and soul revelation
How it gets you in touch with the entire universe
And I said to myself: Annie, you could do worse!
So I tried to sit - in the pose of the Buddha
With eyes closed and arms spread and if I could've I woulda
Put me ankles behind my head but I couldn't
And it hurt so much trying - I decided I wouldn't.
So I folded them under me and sat there for hours
Thinking spiritual thoughts – rivers, trees, clouds and flowers.
I chanted 'Om mane padme Om' once and again
Tried real hard to banish all thoughts - mundane.
I forgot about work, I forgot about shopping
'Om', I sang, and even forgot about stopping
For lunch! I've cracked it! I said, and rejoiced!
Prematurely, it turns out…. for I hoist
Myself onto my feet, which alas had no feeling
I stood up, fell over – so much for spiritual healing!
I sat there massaging my feet and my ankles
And thought: I gave it my best shot and that's what still rankles!
Well I ain't GOT no religion, and I ain't got no sign,
Never been astral travlin', and I cain't read no minds!
Got no karma or dharma, I'm beginnin' to suspect
That I'm truly and deeply spiritually INCORRECT!

From Page 20 - the Skeptic, Spring 2003
By Annie Warburton

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:58 PM

oh, wonderful, freda! I may have to learn that one....It's da' real me...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:30 AM

A Muslim was killed in a car accident and arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter says, "I'm St. Peter. Welcome to Heaven," The Muslim says, "Nice to meet you Peter, but I'm a Muslim and I want to meet Muhammad." St. Peter says, "Sure no problem. Climb up that ladder behind you and you will meet Muhammad." The Muslim climbs up the ladder, gets to the top and there is Moses. Moses says, "Hi I'm Moses. Welcome to Heaven." The Muslim is very excited - "Moses, its such an honour to meet you. But like I told St. Peter, I'm a Muslim and I really want to meet Muhammad." Moses says, "No problem. Climb up the ladder behind you and you will meet Muhammad." The Muslim climbs up the ladder, gets to the top, but he can't see anything except bright light. He sees this figure before him and asks, "Who are you?" The figure responds, "I am God. Nice to meet you. Welcome to Heaven." God walks over and shakes his hand. The Muslim is stunned - he can hardly speak. He says to God, "Sir, it is such an honour to meet you, I can't believe it, this place is great. But I'm a Muslim and, no disrespect intended, but I really want to meet Muhammad." God says, "Oh. You're here to see Muhammad. I see. No problem. Have a seat. Get comfortable. Can I get you some coffee or something to eat?" The Muslim says, "I would love a cup of coffee." God yells into the kitchen, "Hey Muhammad, two coffees!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:24 PM

Depends whether youre an aethiest

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:13 PM

nope...that's not what it depends on.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:32 PM

An atheist being: someone who doesn't believe in someone else's idea of "God", right?

I'm a political atheist. I don't believe in either the Democrats or the Republicans.

I don't believe in the flag either. More atheism.

I respect money and find it handy, but do not consider it all-powerful. More atheism.

I place very little value on fame. More atheism.

I like physical beauty, but I know that it will not last. More atheism.

I belong to no traditional churches. More atheism.

I have major doubts about romance and/or marriage producing lasting happiness. More atheism.

I respect science, but do not imagine that it can ever answer my most important questions about Life. More atheism.

I am highly skeptical of the AMA and the drug companies. More atheism.

See what I mean? Most people's gods do not impress me as being worth following.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:44 PM

playing fast & loose with the definitions there, LH. *grin*

most of those entities exist, whether you 'believe in' the values or not...(I even agree with you about many of those values, just not on your equivocation on the term)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:11 PM

Yeah, yeah, they exist! No doubt about that. Bill, there are so many false gods out there that you couldn't shake a stick at all of them...

What do you think that passage was about in the Bible that warned about having "no other Gods before me"?...it was about the many other worldly things that people choose to serve and worship in preference to Spirit...in preference to Love....in preference to the Golden Rule.

It was about selfishness, greed, acquisitiveness, ambition, lust, pride, ego, vengeance... and all those other self-aggrandizing things that people serve in their insecurity...including vicious and exclusionary religions and churches that serve not Spirit, but themselves.

Look at what a person DOES on a daily basis, how he acts, what he willingly gives his attention to, and you will see what it is that he truly worships and serves. He either works in favour of Life in general...or he depletes and damages Life in general. Spirit is all of Life, not just one privileged part that has been set up as a false god over the rest.