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28 Nov 09 - 02:39 PM (#2775678) Subject: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies Could be bad news for Riginslinger. One of his last champions, Lou Dobbs, appears to be seriously wobbling. He's now--per WSJ--come out to support a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants whose only crime is illegally entering the US. He's evidently trying to appeal to viewers of Telemundo (Hispanic channel)--very likely to prepare for a run at political office. Of course he may succeed in doing nothing but muddying the water so that nobody on any side of this issue trusts him. And certainly if he does plan to reach out to Hispanics, he has a long record to try to explain. |
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28 Nov 09 - 02:47 PM (#2775685) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Amos To begin with, characterizing as felons those who have committed what is properly speaking a minor misdemeanor, as though each of them had committed some bloody murder or robbery merely by coming over an imaginary line looking for better pay and a safer life. Demonizing people does not make them likely to want to vote for you. A |
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28 Nov 09 - 02:57 PM (#2775697) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) Dobbs appeared as a bigoted ass on CNN. That news site is the better for losing him. Now if CNN closes down...... |
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28 Nov 09 - 04:24 PM (#2775744) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: John on the Sunset Coast Yeah, Dobbs especially hates Hispanics. That's why he married one. Peddle your smears elsewhere. |
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28 Nov 09 - 04:49 PM (#2775756) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Joe Offer Adding to what Amos says, I think it's a logical fallacy to ascribe moral strictures to the breaking of laws. This is a very American thing that has been drilled into many of us since childhood - to think that people who break laws are bad people, and thus are not morally suitable to become American citizens. I get this from my talk-show-addicted mother-in-law all the time, about how it's morally wrong break the immigration laws. Well, I think it's very important for us to remember that morality and legislation are two different things. Things that are immoral are harmful or unjust. Things that are illegal are simple failures to obey the mandate of the legislature. Sometimes criminal and moral law can coincide, but oftentimes criminal and civil law are simply arbitrary. It is rarely a moral wrong to immigrate, even if the immigration is illegal. Sometimes, it's the immigrations laws themselves that are immoral, and I think that the US has a long history of immorally discriminatory immigration law. -Joe- |
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28 Nov 09 - 05:34 PM (#2775776) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) This thread seems likely to repeat much of thread 101780. Bush and Democrats to legalize criminals |
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28 Nov 09 - 05:36 PM (#2775777) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies "...likely to vote for you." Bingo. That's what it's all about, I bet. Lou has finally figured out that alienating the Hispanic vote is putting yourself squarely on the wrong side of demographics. And throwing away a lot of potential supporters. In fact since the 2004 election was so close, a good argument could be made that GWB ( or his handlers) was smart enough to realize that the Hispanic vote, in places like New Mexico, could--and did-- put him over the top. Since a good many Hispanics are actually pretty conservative on issues like patriotism, attempts to remove "In God We Trust from coins", homosexual marriage (and some other pet Mudcat causes). In 2008 the economy trumped everything. But conservatives, if they play their cards right, can win back a good portion of the Hispanic electorate in certain circumstances. First, however, they have to disavow Riginslinger's "Brown Peril" idea. |
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28 Nov 09 - 05:43 PM (#2775781) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies The question obviously becomes: to what extent has the political environment changed since 2007? If I were President Obama I'd make the path to citizenship for illegal immigrants a top priority after the economy and health care. It's the right thing to do. Also, he has an opportunity to anchor the burgeoning Hispanic vote in his column--and it will outflank any attempt by conservatives to use a conservative stance on other social issues to eat into his Hispanic support. |
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28 Nov 09 - 06:02 PM (#2775791) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) Ron, a lot in what you say. He obviously cannot perform on the promise to get the U. S. out of the Middle East and another effort to get votes is necessary for him to continue. Rather than New Mexico I would put Florida as the example (much larger population with a large number of conservative Hispanics and also lost by a small margin, 51% - 48%. |
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28 Nov 09 - 06:19 PM (#2775798) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies Question however as to how many Florida Hispanics would react positively to legalizing illegal immigrants, who would be in large part coming from other places than Cuba. Cuba policy is amazingly complex politically in itself. Out west the Hispanic vote is a bit more predictably in favor of the idea. |
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28 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM (#2775840) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) True. A lot depends on the pitch. Many illegals in the fields and orchards of Florida; their contribution to the state economy is large. States like California are also important- Congressmen elected from areas where the Hispanic vote is large, although the state may go the other way, could influence Congressional votes on the issues. |
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28 Nov 09 - 11:51 PM (#2775887) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: EBarnacle The point I made in another thread is that if we can regularize everyone who comes across the border to work--or not--we gain in several ways. First, we can gain in collecting taxes. Second, if everyone is eligible for health care without fear of arrest and deportation. This means that when an immigrant becomes sick, he can go to a hospital for care instead of becoming a focus of infection. Third, it means that when they work, they can do so without fear of exploitation and abuse because they will have legal recourse. There are those who fear that Social Security will not have the money to support the next generation. If we provide legitimate jobs for people who wish to work this problem will be minimized or eliminated. Finally, while Dobbs is off CNN, his is still on quite a few talk radio venues. |
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29 Nov 09 - 11:02 AM (#2776070) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies One of the many ironies of the "Brown Peril" attitude towards the problem is that the illegal HIspanic immigrants working in the US are lopsidedly young--not even close to drawing on Social Security. But the point of the thread is that though Dobbs is still on quite a few radio outlets, according to the latest information he is (or appears at least to be) trying to shake off the mindless anti-immigrant fever he himself was so successful in spreading. |
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29 Nov 09 - 01:20 PM (#2776146) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger Dobbs has been unfairly lumped in with people who are anti-immigrant for different reasons, like Tom Tancredo for instance. Lou Dobbs has really been a champion for the American middle class. He comes into conflict with illegal immigration because the illegal immigrants lower American wage and benefit standards. Many of us who are concerned about illegal immigration would be less vocal if immigrants were paid a fair wage and payroll taxes were being applied. Once they grant the 12 million illegals who are here now equal wages and benefits, they will lose their competitive edge in the market place, and in times of economic downturn they will find themselves drawing unemployment compensation at the tax payer's expense. At that point, industry might very well import 12 million additional illegal immigrants to take their place in order to keep the prices of their products and services low. |
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29 Nov 09 - 03:31 PM (#2776229) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies So, Rig, you are also now in favor of providing a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants--without requiring them to leave the US? |
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29 Nov 09 - 03:56 PM (#2776239) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger No, Ron, I am not in favor of granting illegal immigrants a path to citizenship. I saw what happened in 1986. I am in favor of paying people an honest days pay for an honest days work. |
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29 Nov 09 - 04:06 PM (#2776245) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies If you are not in favor of a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants whose only crime is illegally entering the US, it appears Lou Dobbs has now parted company with you. This is exactly the point of the thread. |
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29 Nov 09 - 04:48 PM (#2776270) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) Many of the illegal immigrants are paying taxes, but not getting benefits. The total is in the billions. The IRS even provides an alternative to the Social Security Number so that it can collect taxes from foreign workers. Illegal workers are subject to withholding taxes. Many end up paying more than they owe. A proper registration system and route to citizenship is necessary to clean up the contradictions in policies and let these productive workers apply. See Associated Press article, msnbc, "At tax time, illegal immigrants are paying too.": http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024/ Proposals to regularize the system are dead for this session of Congress. Lies, many by omission, from widely audited personalities who are interested only in their ratings, have killed them - Lou Dobbs rants on CNN showed his propensity to make untrue statements that would shock rather than inform. He may have moderated his views since being separated from CNN, but I would trust him no farther than I could throw a mature crocodile. |
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29 Nov 09 - 06:08 PM (#2776325) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger "...it appears Lou Dobbs has now parted company with you." I does appear that way, but one would have to know what Lou Dobbs means by "a path to citizenship" to be sure. He might grant citizenship to somebody who would volunteer to spend 8 years in the military, for instance. |
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29 Nov 09 - 06:09 PM (#2776326) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger "Many of the illegal immigrants are paying taxes, but not getting benefits." While many more are receiving benefits and not paying taxes. |
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29 Nov 09 - 10:18 PM (#2776452) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies No, Rig, Dobbs is talking about citizenship for all illegal immigrants now here whose only crime was illegal entry to the US. He does not require military service. Point is that you are on the wrong side of history and demographics--and he wants to be on the right side. Your champions of restrictive immigration are falling fast. A considerable number lost in the last election. But don't worry, you'll have Sarah or somebody equally deserving to vote for in 2012, though you no doubt won't vote for President Obama, since he will make his stance clear long before then--and will probably lay out a clear path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. |
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29 Nov 09 - 11:20 PM (#2776479) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger Ron - I think you are missreading what Lou Dobbs has said. Being on the wrong side of demographics simply makes the point that whoever was running Ronald Reagan in 1986 wanted to see this turn of events come to fruition. The larger point, of course, is whoever thinks that illegal immigration to the US and other developed countries is a good thing, and should go on unhindered simply doesn't care anything about the environment. That, of course, would certainly include James G. Watt and Ronald Reagan. |
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30 Nov 09 - 12:29 AM (#2776493) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies Rig-- I'm sorry to say, that in common with much you write--as for instance pointing out that Hitler had to be a mass murderer since he was raised a Catholic--what you say above is 100% drivel--or worse. You have set up one of your favorite straw men--nobody has ever said illegal immigration was a good thing. We are trying to make it legal immigration--and thereby regulate it. Those of your ilk are, to put it mildly, not helping by your absurd scare stories. We are also prepared to deal with reality--which includes about 12 million illegal immigrants now in the US. You are living in a fantasyland imagining that they can or-- should--return to country of origin. But sleep well. I hope the illegals don''t come and get you tonight. |
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30 Nov 09 - 05:48 AM (#2776596) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: kendall All our ancestors were illegal immigrants. They were allowed to get away with it and look what happened to the natives. |
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30 Nov 09 - 09:03 AM (#2776697) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger Ron - I don't know where you came up with that Hitler idea. It seems to me you've tried to hang it on more that one poster on this forum. But to use your favorite word--it's drivel. All the government needs to do is to enforce the laws that are on the books now. If the illegals who are here can't find employment, they can decide for themselves what to do. It wouldn't make sense to waste a lot of tax payer money shipping them out of the country. They would simply turn around and return. |
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30 Nov 09 - 03:15 PM (#2776971) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) Ron, not much point in trying to reason with Rigslinger, his brain is frozen. |
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30 Nov 09 - 04:31 PM (#2777021) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Bobert Well, let's get real here, folks... Politics is all about power which in turn is all about money... The ultra-right is looking around at their tent emptying of the folks with money and in are coming all the angry people who are too lazy to work for a living shoutin' at the top of their lungs that they hate this and they hate that??? Hmmmmmmm??? Where did the money go??? Out the friggin' door is where and it ain't comin' back until you get the bouncers to empty the tnet of the freeloading rednecks... So, it is my guess that a number of stances will soften over the coming months if the Repubs expect to do any serious fundraising other than from the corporation-de-jour that is being held accountable in Congress... What??? You thin the health insurance companies are going to continue to pour billions into the Republican party after health care refo9rm passes??? Hahaha... Even the Repubs are gettin' it... Rednecks don't exactly make it is "strange bed-fellow" material for the corportists when the rednecks are so filled with hate... So if Dobbs is playin' a new tune it's because he discovered that the old one wasn't getting no bucks dropped into the guitar case... B~ |
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01 Dec 09 - 07:50 AM (#2777427) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: kendall What if we could gather up a load of illegals and fly them to SOUTHERN Mexico instead of just dropping them on the other side of the Rio Grande? If this economy gets much worse the problem will cure itself. I heard that recently it's so bad a truck full of Americans was caught sneaking INTO Mexico. |
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01 Dec 09 - 06:12 PM (#2777964) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) Kendall, there are so many that is would cost more to export them than to citizenize them. Besides, many are from southern Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, etc., so they know the way. For New York, apprehended aliens from Mexico accounted to only 18% of the total, so lots of others have come in from the cold, so to say. There, I heard a teen use citizenize; I am adding it to Mudcat vocabulary without charge. Lots of jobs that locals won't take. Near Calgary is a large slaughter and meat packing plant, the workers all Somalis except for the boss man. Don't know if they are all legal or not. Less stressful than pirating. Good workers! |
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01 Dec 09 - 09:12 PM (#2778062) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger http://content.usatoday.net/dist/custom/gci/InsidePage.aspx?cId=ozarksnow&sParam=36917842.story |
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02 Dec 09 - 09:56 AM (#2778473) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies Rig: "I don't know where you came up with that Hitler idea". Try this: Riginslinger: Nurse Suspended: 8 March 2009 11:51 PM "....there is no way somebody could be as diabolical as Hitler without being addicted to some ancient superstition or another--cocaine wouldn't do it--and if he started out Catholic...." To coin a phrase: You can run, Rig but you can't hide. Maybe someday you will learn the Net is the opposite of Love Story: you always have to say you're sorry---and even then you may be hanged again for the same crime. All you have to do is actually start thinking before hitting "send". Seems a modest request. Perhaps you might try it--- someday. |
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02 Dec 09 - 10:03 AM (#2778479) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Donuel Dobbs can deny anything he has ever said to be his opinion and claim that editorializing for CNN was just his job. Let him run. He and Fred Thompson make a good pair of geezers that can not even capture the imagination of AARP members. |
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02 Dec 09 - 10:20 AM (#2778487) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger Ron - Read again what I said, and then look at the way you interperted it. The two comments are way different. |
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02 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM (#2779010) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies You read it again, Rig. You linked Hitler, Catholicism and Hitler's crimes. Your attempt to weasel out, is, I'm sorry to say, pathetic. Try harder. As was said in another context, your anti- Catholic bigotry--and not just in that quote-- is clear to any reader: "like rotten mackerel by moonlight, it shines and stinks." Hey, maybe it's because some Mexicans might possibly be Catholic that you're so afraid of them. Be sure to watch those shadows carefully. You never know when one might be a Catholic. You and Pat Robertson are kindred spirits. But you're without question a wonderful spokesman for the militant atheism with which Mudcat is amply graced. A true poster boy. No wonder atheism is as popular and strong in the US as it is. |
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02 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM (#2779021) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) Canada is more concerned with Asian illegals since they are sometimes associated with criminal activity. Here in Calgary today, the police arrested one group who were trying to sell two teen age girls from Asia for $5000 apiece. Another group was hit, holding sex slaves. |
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02 Dec 09 - 09:46 PM (#2779120) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger Well, Ron, I think you've misinterperted what I was trying to say. Maybe I didn't say it well. In any event, Q's post seems to present a more compelling problem. |
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03 Dec 09 - 08:49 PM (#2780145) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies "misinterpreted"? Not likely, Rig. You were quite clear. But as I've suggested, all you have to do is start thinking before hitting "send". It would be refreshing. And you are rather lucky the moderator of this site is a VERY tolerant Catholic. If I had been in charge you would have been bounced off the site immediately--and I'm not even religious. First of all, ..."you've tried to hang it on more that (sic) one poster." Wrong again. You maintain your perfect record. I noted who said it at the time, and have never fingered anybody else. Then it also appears you need some help with English, the language you supposedly speak. Perhaps not as well as some Mexican immigrants. Let's go to the tape, as they say. ..." there is no way somebody could be as diabolical as Hitler without being addicted to some ancient superstition or another--cocaine wouldn't do it--and if he started out Catholic....." 1) Hitler was evil. I imagine we can agree on that. 2) So the question becomes: what caused his evilness? Your answer: "addiction to some ancient superstition or another..." Then you observe that this superstition must be more powerful than cocaine. 3) You hit on the answer: "if he started out Catholic..." 4) So a person who can read and reason--perhaps that excludes you-- sees clearly what you are saying: the ancient superstition that caused Hitler to be so evil--including of course mass murder---was Catholicism. I assume this is clear even to a gentleman from the shallow end of the gene pool--like your good self? Though I can certainly see why you at first wanted to deny having said it, and now would like to sweep it under the rug. Just start putting brain in gear before hitting "send" and you'd be amazed at the improvement. A gentle suggestion. |
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03 Dec 09 - 09:27 PM (#2780160) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger You seem to have trouble finding your way out of the maze, Ron. Of course Catholicism could have been the fuel that fired Hitler, but towards the end he was trying to convert his followers to Norse Mythology. We've seen first hand that Catholicism isn't the only superstition that perverts men's minds. The 9/11 attackers were addicted to Islam, and the maniacal Israelis who happily shoot their neighbors every day are addicted to something else. Rational reasoning, it seems, is the best way to solve problems. Of course, you have to have a clear mind to engage in that. |
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05 Dec 09 - 01:41 PM (#2781423) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Ron Davies "Catholicism could have been the fuel..." You never learn, do you, Rig? Still blithely slandering. You owe an apology to all Catholics. But don't worry, nobody expects you to actually give one. Your kind never does. Smearing an entire group comes easy for you---just like it did for Hitler with the Jews. But taking responsibility for your actions? Not likely. "...shallow end of the gene pool" QED Be sure to watch out for Catholics (AKA Mexicans) lurking outside your house. Not that anybody wants to imply your paranoia has destroyed your brain. Perish the thought. |
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05 Dec 09 - 02:14 PM (#2781453) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) If there are 12 million illegals in the United States, that would be less than 4% of the total. Hardly enough to affect employment of citizens. There are many groups contributing to the illegal total; estimates of Salvadorans range up to 2 million, many illegal. Latin Americans exclusive of Mexico are about 25% of the total. Many illegals from eastern Asia simply are not counted because they disappear into a society which lives and works together. Estimates are 10% but this is probably low. I haven't looked into this to any extent; just quote Wikipedia and similar estimates. It is impossible to estimate the number of illegals paying federal and state taxes because these figures are confidential, but I would guess that the majority contribute since nearly all are on payrolls of some kind. The few not declaring probably would be mostly domestic help. |
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05 Dec 09 - 02:28 PM (#2781466) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) An article in the American Bar Association journal, "Tax Lawyer," contains an estimate that illegals contribute more in taxes than they cost in social services. They contribute some $7 billion in Social Security payments. Chidren of illegals are reported to cost $29 billion in education, but many of these children were born in the U. S. and thus are full citizens. The illegal immigrant problem is complex and lacks easy solution; it is one faced by all countries of the world where there are jobs available. |
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06 Dec 09 - 05:41 AM (#2781946) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: GUEST "What if we could gather up a load of illegals and fly them to SOUTHERN Mexico instead of just dropping them on the other side of the Rio Grande?" Well, if you did that, who's gonna build your wall?. Rog |
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06 Dec 09 - 08:29 AM (#2782022) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger "...the number of illegals paying federal... I would guess that the majority contribute since nearly all are on payrolls of some kind. The few not declaring probably would be mostly domestic help." Actually, Q, almost all of the jobs in agriculture can be execmpted from payroll taxes as well, and are. In addition to that, those small contractors picking up illegals in front of Home Depot every day do not pay any taxes either. In fact, I would bet that fewer than 20% of the illegals working in America pay any kind of payroll or income taxes. That's one of the things that makes them so cheap to the crooks who hire them. |
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06 Dec 09 - 02:16 PM (#2782234) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Q (Frank Staplin) See post of Nov. 30, 2009, 03:15 pm. |
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06 Dec 09 - 03:42 PM (#2782294) Subject: RE: BS: Dobbs: Citizenship for Illegals From: Riginslinger Better frozen than nonexistent, Q. |