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BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals
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Subject: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 18 May 07 - 06:37 PM Not many details on the legislation Bush & the Democrats are crafting on the Amnesty, but that's the way the federal government does business nowadays--in secret. Apparently, though, they're going to build a "fence" on the Mexican border after they legalize the 30 million + illegals already in the U.S. PLUS, each of these criminals can claim amnesty for kids, parents, extended family members. Average of 10-11 people per person already in the country illegally. then after 4 years, those 10-11 can bring in 10-11 themselves. It's called chain immigration and is intended to destroy nations. The average immigrant pays $10,000 in taxes and usurps $32,000 per year in "entitlements." So, the government is going to legallize 30,000,000 x 10 foreigners x $32,000 per year drain on the Treasury. 30,000,000 (already here) x 10 (extended family that'll be following soon) ---------- 300,000,000 (new Americans) x $32,000 per year per person, in "benefits") ---------- $9,600,000,000,000 What the hell is that? Nine QUADRILLION, 600 trillion per YEAR to help our "new Americans" get by in their new environment? And that's just the result of ONE piece of legislation. We need to cut back somewhere. This stuff could start to add up. The group at the link below has been tracking immigration forever. Disturbing numbers. http://www.numbersusa.com/index This immigration assualt on the US is blatant, public treason by congress and the President.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 18 May 07 - 07:00 PM Comin' to get you are they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 18 May 07 - 07:01 PM Well, since both some Republican and some Democratic legislators think its a good deal, and some more conservative Republicans, some liberal Democrats, some Hispanic groups and the American Immigration Lawyers Association think it's pretty bad, I guess it's fairly well balanced over all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 18 May 07 - 07:07 PM Shill group. Token resistance to make Americans think it's not all bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 18 May 07 - 07:16 PM Where are your facts and figures from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Little Hawk Date: 18 May 07 - 07:19 PM Heh! After 200 years of being abused, robbed, and kicked around, it looks like the Mexicans are gonna finally get their revenge on El Norte. Quiver in fear, gringos! You will soon be forced to eat frijoles every day and make your children learn all about Benito Juarez instead of Abe Lincoln! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 18 May 07 - 07:26 PM If Lopez Obrador had won the election in Mexico--some still say it was stolen--I wonder what the discussion would be. And if 20 million of his supporters hadn't run off to the US, he probably would have won. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 18 May 07 - 07:30 PM A bill is being presented to Congress. This is standard practice in this country for enacting a new law or getting an old law changed. And, actually, there is quite a bit about it in the news today. In fact, I heard an hour-long discussion of it on my local NPR affiliate today, in which all sides of the matter were discussed. Hardly "in secret." And as far as the legislators are concerned, it's not just Democrats, it's bi-partisan. And your facts and figures are asinine in relation to what I just heard in the discussion an hour or so ago. Get your bloody facts straight!! Don Firth P. S. This does not mean that I think this is a good law. Many aspects of it are not particularly fair to the various parties involved, including illegal immigrants seeking amnesty and citizenship. What I am objecting to, Aunty Em, is your hysterical and inaccurate portrayal of the legislation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 18 May 07 - 07:35 PM Din't hear any crybabies during the 90's when Hispanics were very much part of the engine that fueled a robust economy... Yeah, fir all you crybabies... Why are you so pissed off now and why were you sittin' on yer thumbs 10 years ago when you were benefiting??? Nevermind your crybaby rationalizations... It's too later for them to sound even half credible... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 18 May 07 - 07:37 PM The average immigrant pays $10,000 in taxes? Man, that's pretty good for some poor dude who's picking peaches for $2.00 a day. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 18 May 07 - 07:43 PM Yeah, Don, folks will write anything... Comes with living during the Bush erra... Just make the lies ***real*** big and maybe someone will believe them... Hitler said that but as for the stats that were given above??? A joke!!! Maybe too big to believe... Might have done better trying to link Hispanics to al-Qeada... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 18 May 07 - 07:49 PM "Din't hear any crybabies during the 90's when Hispanics were very much part of the engine that fueled a robust economy..." You must not have been listening. The 1986 Reagan amnesty was the biggest disaster in history. A lot of people said so, and the current proposal will just make things worse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 May 07 - 07:54 PM Projecting the drop in birth rate in USA, we need every one of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Little Hawk Date: 18 May 07 - 08:15 PM Just wait. The Mexican are gonna hit ya from the south. Canada's gonna hit ya from the north. You will all be made to eat refried beans with maple syrup on them!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 18 May 07 - 08:47 PM refried beans with maple syrup? oh, no... I haven't read the bill yet but we were told the other night that it legalizes 12 million, not 30 m, already in the country, provides for a guest worker program but stops illegal entry (yeah, right!) I understand it does not address the danger of splitting up families. And someone said the other day that each applicant for entry will have to pay $5,000 before getting in. That part doesn't sound logical. Or legal. Above, Q remarked that we need immigrants to close the shortfall between our retirees and those fewer innumber who will be working to support them. I agree. Immigrants may be our ticket out of that jam. But $10,000 in taxes? Guest Anti-Jim, when in your whole life have YOU paid a $10,000 income tax? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 18 May 07 - 09:08 PM Ahhhhhh, not to be splittin hairs, rigster, but I said the 90's... ...not 1986... This was not only the decade with the largest immigration but also a decade where Hispanics playued a large role in fueling a red hot economy... Where were the send'um-all-back crybabies that we now hear crying at the top of thier little lungs today back in the ****90's****... It wasn't on their radar... This is just another round or racism disguised as well-Ralph-we-gotta-respect-the-law folks who don't have a clue what they reaslly believe or they would have been on Clinton's butt over this... Problem is that history don't lie and the crybabies who now so indignantyly ***demand*** that the law be followed to the tee didn't say jack in the 90's... Hey, ain't like most of us weren't here in the 90's and they didn't say jack... Oh, but now we are to get on their 10-years-too-late-bandwagen??? Hey, I could get this if these folks had spoken out 10 years ago but I don't get it now other than it sniffs of followerism and racism... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 18 May 07 - 10:11 PM The $5,000 was for illegal immigrants who are already in the country who want to become citizens. They will have to pay a $5,000 fine, leave the United States, and then move to the back of the queue of those who are trying to enter the country legally. I can see a lot of illegal immigrants just jumping at the chance to do that!! Great law, that one. "The law is a ass!" —character in a Charles Dickens novel. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 18 May 07 - 10:11 PM Well, I'd like to know where the facts and figures are from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 18 May 07 - 10:13 PM Arcturus 12, I think. But it would be interesting to know where Aunty Em got them. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Rapparee Date: 18 May 07 - 10:18 PM I think that the folks who were here first should send ALL the johnny-come-lately immigrants back to where they came from: the Irish, the Germans, the Swedes, the English, the Spanish, the Chinese, the whole bloody lot! That's what I think, by God! America for American Indians! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: katlaughing Date: 18 May 07 - 10:31 PM I like our senator, Ken Salazar, from Colorado and I respect his judgement. He is Hispanic and a rancher who employs migrant workers. He is reaching out in a bipartisan effort, but also waiting to see how the new bill shakes out: Sen. Salazar Statement on Today's First-Step Agreement on Immigration Reform WASHINGTON, D.C. – United States Senator Ken Salazar today released the following statement announcing a broad, bipartisan, first-step agreement on immigration reform legislation: "Today, we have finally reached broad agreement on immigration reform. "I have spent countless hours working with my Republican and Democratic colleagues to reach an agreement on a plan that first and foremost secures our borders. "This bill secures our borders, has tough enforcement of our immigration laws on the border and in the interior, brings the 12 million undocumented workers in our Nation out of the shadows and creates a real immigration system for the future. "This compromise includes an agreement on a guest worker program that will help our farmers, ranchers and businesses across Colorado and the Nation. "While I still need to see the final language, today's agreement is an important start in the process of moving this bill forward. This is a compromise that we can take to the floor process where I look forward to working with my colleagues to further improve it." And, he will improve, I have not doubt. As to the originator of this thread...phffffft! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Rapparee Date: 18 May 07 - 10:38 PM Send 'em all back, I say! If they didn't evolve here, why, send their butts back to where they came from! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Donuel Date: 18 May 07 - 10:45 PM the mex election was stolen in classic W fashion. They stopped all counting closed down media and VOILA 2 weeks and 4 days later they had a winner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 18 May 07 - 11:59 PM "Hey, I could get this if these folks had spoken out 10 years ago but I don't get it now other than it sniffs of followerism and racism..." 1986 is when it really got going. If you didn't hear all of the protest against illegal immigration in the 1990's, I can't imagine where you were. The amnesty legislation of 1986 was just one of the many efforts Ronald Reagan made in his never ending attempt to destroy America. So far we've survived it, but this Senate proposal might finally be the end of the world as we know it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 19 May 07 - 12:02 AM "That's what I think, by God! America for American Indians!" Those of us who are direct descenents of Kennewick Man want to send the Indians back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 19 May 07 - 01:29 AM The bill is still "secret," so nobody's sure what's in it. It will be presented at the last minute so all the people in congress can say they didn't have a chance to read it, and some of the riders to the bill will be bank-busters. And every time you spend money you pay a tax--gasoline tax, road tax, licensing fees, and so on. The trade-off of paid in to paid out for the average immigrant is 1:3. This will bankrupt social security, for starters, with each criminal illegal suddenly able to import 10 family members. Chain immigration worked in Europe, so now it's being used in America. The Norta American Union pact was signed in May of 2005, at Waco, Texas, and this is a way to help the plan along. For you people to be REALLY politically correct, even American Indians should leave, so the bison can have it back. What a bunch of philosophers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 19 May 07 - 01:33 AM What is the source of your facts and figures? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 19 May 07 - 01:47 AM OK. Likely not going to get an answer to the question, so I will leave with the following stated: There is NO WAY the bill will get the votes it needs to pass. Have a nice evening, all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 19 May 07 - 01:51 AM Figures? We don't need no stinkin' figures. This is the new America, man. Maybe I'll get you some figures manana. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Little Hawk Date: 19 May 07 - 01:59 AM Rather than trying to figure out who was where first, which can never be sorted out to anyone's satisfaction, why not establish more equitable standards of living and more equal rates of pay and generally good conditions around the globe? Then people would not by under so much pressure to emigrate out of poor countries into rich ones.... ;-) Oh, but that would mean acting like one united human race, wouldn't it? Hmmm. Too radical an idea, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 19 May 07 - 07:53 AM Yeah, LH... If the consumption countries were to come up with a "value added tax", meaning that labor would be taxed as a "value added" part of manufaturing at levels that were equal to what labor would cost in the consumption countries, then corporations would take a second look at having goods produced in sweat shops... Globalization has become another name for exploitation... One of the reasons that there are so many folks on the send-um'-back-bandwagen is that as Hispanics have become assimilated and aren't willing to work for slave wages anymore... This isn't about law... It's about money... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 19 May 07 - 08:23 AM The US legislative process: (1) the originator(s) of an idea (in either the House or the Senate) come up with a bill, (2) this bill is discussed in the appropriate Committee, or is agreed upon in some kind of closed-door session, (3) the bill is introduced on the House or Senate floor, (4) is debated, (5) is (probably) amended, and (6) finally is either passed or not. Then the entire process is repeated in the other side of congress (7-12). After the two Houses of Congress have each passed their bills, which are certainly different, they (13) go to a joint Senate-House Conference Committee which (maybe) reconciles them and (14-15) sends them back for a vote on the compromise legislation. Assuming both houses agree on the compromise, which is far from certain, the approved legislation then (16) goes to the President for signature. This bill hasn't gotten to (3) yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 19 May 07 - 09:16 AM "...why not establish more equitable standards of living and more equal rates of pay and generally good conditions around the globe?" "Hispanics have become assimilated and aren't willing to work for slave wages anymore..." I agree with all of this, but I've been reading about the "Mexican Billionaires," and while there don't seem to be a lot of them, they have all the resources tied up so the working people don't have a chance. That's why I think the world would have been a much better place if Lopez Obrador. All of this is beginning to look like Florida 2000. The people vote and somehow the champion of the globalists emerges as the winner, and... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Dickey Date: 19 May 07 - 09:36 AM Bobert: I hope you have your scapegoats all lined up for the time when your taxes triple and your standard of living goes down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: katlaughing Date: 19 May 07 - 10:18 AM but I've been reading about the "Mexican Billionaires," and while there don't seem to be a lot of them, they have all the resources tied up so the working people don't have a chance. I hope this was posted tongue-in-cheek? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 19 May 07 - 10:45 AM Dickey, My standard of living has been going down steadily for the last 6 years... I don't know who has changed the definition of "inflation" under the Bush/corporatist/globalist administartion but it sho nuff ain't the same when "inflation" was one of the things the Repubs beat Jimmy Carter over... Gasoline prices 2000 were about $1.50... Now they are over $3.00 a gallon... Health insurance in 2000 was $300 a month... Now it's over a $1000 a month... Food, electricity, cars, farm machinery, housing, perscroption drugs, etc, etc have all risen much faster than the so called 3% a year that the Bush statisticans have thrown out as if Bush has actually kept prices in check... He hasn't... You know it... I know... Donald Duck knows it... The standard of living for the average American has been in decline for the last 20 years and especially so under Bush... No, I'm less worried about taxes than I am "Boss Hog" having unfettered access to power and my money... And, fir the record, how many Hispanic immigrants are there out there who have become billionaires, por favor??? Sources, por favor??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 19 May 07 - 11:54 AM Dickey-- Neither Bobert nor anybody else needs to line up scapegoats--we know you have the art of lining up scapegoats mastered. Since that's your answer to any problem you have. At some point you might want to start thinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 19 May 07 - 12:05 PM Yes, let's make everyone get along. And those who refuse should be killed or locked away from the good people. The world could be a beautiful, peaceful heaven if we just got rid of the troublemakers. Half the people I see every day are hispanic. Their ancestors came from Mexico. A quarter of the couples I know are hispanic/anglo. The problem THAT ALL OF US HAVE with the Bush/Kennedy blanket amnesty is that the illegals don't want to live here. They're here TO EARN DOLLARS, which they send money back to their families in Mexico. We, as Americans, resent them taking the jobs that our families would be doing if there weren't so many freakin' illegals around (construction jobs, food service jobs, "manual" type jobs). Also, Mexican nationals (through no fault of their own) tend to be INCREDIBLY racist. America's been leash-broken on "political correctness" issues, but Mexicans have been media-fed hatred of whites and blacks. They call blacks "blackbirds" and see nothing wrong with it. I have no doubt that the hispanics are being sucked into the country to be used as pawns in race wars. When Paris Hilton and Britney and the others lose their diversionary appeal, the media will start hyping the "unforseen difficulties" that have arisen from legalizing 30 million criminals. Tuberculosis and leprosy will then be revealed as the epidemic it is (brought here by unscreened criminal illegals), and internment of the "diseased" will begin, then the CIA will stage riots and more hispanics will have to be locked up, and they'll start filling up the concentration camps that litter America with "undesirables." Then the CIA will stage some killings by "Christian hate groups," and THAT'S where they'll make their mistake. Whites and blacks will unite and that'll be the end of the tension between whites and blacks in America, thank goodness. We have more in common than we have differences. Unfortunately, we'll have to unite in order to destroy an aggressive foreign occupation force brought here by our own treasonous government. Listen to the Terry Anderson Show. He broadcasts on the internet. Black man from southern California. His single issue is immigration. "If you ain't mad, you ain't payin' attention!" He says if he parks on the street in front of his nice little suburban house he gets a ticket. Has to park in his driveway. But just a few blocks away is a huge area of land the environmentalists succeeded in making off limits to building. A nature zone or whatever. And he says it's crawling with hundreds of illegals camped out, cooking, crapping, etc. Broken down cars in the weeds, goats, chickens. And the police are under orders not to bother them, while Anderson gets a ticket if he parks on the street in front of his house. Illegal immigration and amnesty have nothing to do with race. It's all about waging war against America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 May 07 - 12:21 PM A direct impact of unfettered illegal immigration in the US: Most illegals are working "off the grid", and don't have health insurance or the funds to pay for medical treatment. Hospitals in the United States are compelled to treat, at no charge if necessary, anyone who enters their emergency rooms. Because of this fact, E rooms in most large hospitals in major cities are clogged with illegal aliens seeking treatment for everything from the flu, to minor cuts and sprains. Emergency rooms are often treated as Doctor's offices would normally be, for repeat treatments and visits. The impact has several facets. For one, Emergency Rooms are so crowded that standard procedure for someone who is in need of actual emergency assistance is to take a number and get in the back of the line. In addition, between the stress of handling actual emergencies and dealing with scores of routine minor ailments, the E room is becoming an area that many Doctors avoid at all costs, an unfortunate situation since E rooms provide a vital contribution to a Doctor's decision-making and triage skills. But perhaps the biggest negative is the cash drain on hospitals. Many have eliminated Emergency Room service because of the funds hemorrhage that happens there. And the ones that continue Emergency Services must cover this cash loss by jacking up fees in other areas, resulting in sky-high medical costs, out of control health-insurance premiums, and so on. Illegal immigration is not the sole factor in the escalating crisis in our hospitals here, but it is a major one, and anyone who thinks the presence of 20 million mostly uninsured illegals in this country is only resented by ignorant rednecks, needs to delve deeper into the issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Little Hawk Date: 19 May 07 - 12:39 PM America isn't important enough that the whole world has to figure out how to invade and destroy America. Sorry to tell you this, but you're just not that important, okay? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Charley Noble Date: 19 May 07 - 12:45 PM Send "Anti-Im" back to his home country, assuming they'll let such slime back in. Are we all having fun? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 May 07 - 01:14 PM America is actually pretty important to those of us who live here. I don't think illegal immigrants are out to destroy America. They are doing what makes sense to them. If I lived in a country where I made $10 a day, where there was no health care, no social safety net, I would probably hike three miles through the desert to get to one where I could make $8 an hour and have a guarantee of at least minimal housing and health care. The question is whether the United States, as a sovereign nation (Like Canada, Great Britain, and, well, Mexico) has the right to establish its own rules about allowing immigrants in. Despite any nebulous theories about one world government, such a thing doesn't exist, and governments are supported by the effort and money of their citizens, and have an appropriate obligation to them. We have as much right to maintain our border with Mexico as Canada has to maintain their border with us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 19 May 07 - 01:36 PM Nobody argues that use of emergency rooms by illegal immigrants is not a problem. However, the solution is not some neverland idea of sending them all back, or presenting them with a list of absurd preconditions for becoming citizens--like "touch-back"--or huge fines--but rather a more reasonable process: a proficiency in English, no criminal record (the act of illegal immigration itself should not disqualify), etc. And a push to raise the minimum wage should be part of it. This would help get them on the road--as so many immigrants before--to climbing the economic ladder. And would eventually allow them to have their own health care--as would universal health care itself (which is of course another topic.). The poor in the US already use emergency rooms disproportionately--as their last resort. And taxpayers pay for it. But trying to deprive them of it is no solution to the problem. As I've said before, it's because the illegal immigrants are are illegal that employers can exploit them. The solution is not to try to punish them, but to make them legal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 May 07 - 01:39 PM The American colonies, and their successor, the United Sates, were and are only there in the first place as a consequence of illegal immigration from Europe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 19 May 07 - 01:41 PM I can understand anyone's concern about a large influx of people. However, if indeed the situation is inevitable, then someone in the USA ought to get proactive and educate the new rash of folks to BE Americans and not some marginalized sub group that keeps to itself. Anothere however however is this: the bill will not reach Bush's desk because there is no way Congress will pass it that far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: DougR Date: 19 May 07 - 02:01 PM I don't think it is a good law. Those who entered the country illegally will be rewarded and those who have gone through the legal process to obtain citizenship get the shaft. The illegals are a drain on our healthcare system and our educational system. I am not opposed to legal immigration. That's what this country was founded on. Both McCain and Kyle (who I voted for in the last election) are on my s---t list. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 May 07 - 02:13 PM Ron, good points. But isn't a Minimum Wage requirement based on employers complying with law? And if they are hiring illegal aliens, they are unlikely to break one law and comply with another, are they? And I am not saying "the poor" should not be using emergency rooms. They must have recourse. But hospitals are not equipped to handle the numbers of poor citizens PLUS millions of another nation's poor. Also, E-room treatment is NOT a taxpayer issue. This is a cost primarily absorbed by private industry, then passed on to Insurance companies, and then to employers and their employees, employees who, should they need emergency care, may not even have reasonable access to it. This is fair how? And McGrath, come off the "The American colonies, and their successor, the United Sates, were and are only there in the first place as a consequence of illegal immigration from Europe" stuff. Ireland has experienced many waves of "illegal immigrants" from the Norse, to the British, to the Celts, to whoever pre-dated them. Somehow I think the Irish Republic also has borders, visas, and checkpoints that demand passports before entry. Maybe if Ireland shared a border with Nigeria, Vietnam, or Romania, the problem would be a bit less philosophical. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 19 May 07 - 02:23 PM GUEST,Anti-Im, you are a mine of misinformation. "Secret?" Then how is it that everybody knows about it? And last night, there was a lengthy discussion of the ins and outs of it on PBS's "Washington Week in Review." It has not been passed yet. And it is bi-partisan. Bush wants it. Some Democrats like it, some Democrats dislike it; some Republicans like it, some Republicans dislike it. So your thread title is misleading. It's a bad law from a number of viewpoints, but for Chrissake, Anti-Im, try to learn some facts before you point with alarm and scream like an air-raid siren! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 19 May 07 - 03:51 PM LEJ-- I agree you need some type of enforcement mechanism. But ask yourself: in the case of hiring of illegal immgrants, who will turn in the employer? The employer itself will not, nor will the illegal immigrant hired. But if the employer does not pay mimimum wage, the worker has powerful incentive to turn in the employer--and will do so--if the worker himself or herself is legal--and therefore does not fear deportation if they rock the boat. Which is why they should all be made legal--through a gradual process of citizenship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 May 07 - 04:33 PM Ireland does share a border with Romania, politically if not geographically. If you are Romanian you can come to Ireland any time you want and live there, in the same way that if you're Irish you can go and live in Romania. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Little Hawk Date: 19 May 07 - 04:50 PM Speaking of the Irish, there were once the same hysterical fears being expressed about massive Irish immigration to the USA. That was back in the mid-to-late 1800s. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 19 May 07 - 05:51 PM But don't worry--not only are dead-enders like our own dear Doug R, totally opposed to the deal, but quite a few illegal immigrants have concerns too. So would I, if I were an illegal immigrant. The $5,000 fine is a problem, but surmountable. But all heads of household would have to return to their "country of origin" for the stupidly artificial "touch-back" provision. Then they have to trust that the US will let them in again--and very quickly, since otherwise they may well lose jobs and their families will suffer. The government will carry out a brand- new bureaucratic procedure with exemplary efficiency. Right. About that bridge I have to sell Teribus..... And that assumes that illegal immigrants will trust the government at all. And what reason have they been given so far to trust the government? If I were an illegal immigrant, no way would I sign on to a procedure that requires me to leave the US. I wouldn't come out of the shadows for this. So, all you giant intellects who wave the bloody flag of "amnesty", don't worry. The bill as it stands is going nowhere---especially since Pelosi is insisting on a guarantee by the White House of 70 House Republicans before she'll bring the bill up. For a glimpse of the likely reception in the House, look for instance, at the calm measured response by that paragon of clear thinking, Doug R, to support of the bill by Senator Kyl. We'll just have to wait a few more elections, til the growing electoral influence of the fastest growing ethnic group--legally-- has its results. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Lonesome EJ Date: 19 May 07 - 09:13 PM McGrath, does the open door policy just apply to Romanians, or are all immigrants welcome regardless of nationality, criminality, valid passport or lack thereof? Is there any such thing as an illegal immigrant in Ireland? Do you have an extra room? "Speaking of the Irish, there were once the same hysterical fears being expressed about massive Irish immigration to the USA. That was back in the mid-to-late 1800s." That's true. But the government and the taxpayers of the United States weren't asked to feed, house, and provide health coverage for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 19 May 07 - 09:51 PM Okay, let me restate my question once again... Where were you folks who ***now*** want to enforce the law 10 years ago when the economy was flourishing with cheap Hispanic (not necessarially Mexican) labor??? I mean, isn't this the corporate model???... Use people and then try to dodge any benefits that these folks might have coming??? I see little difference between the Hispanics who are now under attack by "Boss Hog's" goon than the labor union folks who were beat up in the 30's by "Boss Hog's" goons, or the UAW folks who are about to get a butt whup put on them by the new owners of Chrysler... Like I said... This ain't about enforcing laws or not enforcin' 'um... It's about money... And, BTW, emergency rooms have become the poor man's only access to health care regardless of race, cred or where you are from... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 19 May 07 - 09:59 PM "...but I've been reading about the "Mexican Billionaires," and while there don't seem to be a lot of them, they have all the resources tied up so the working people don't have a chance." "I hope this was posted tongue-in-cheek?" No it's not tongue-in-cheek. It's factual. Forbes has a list of Mexican Billionaires. I've never been able to make that "blue clicky" gizmo work, but google them. They're out there, and they control so much of Mexico's economy that virtually no capital is made available for other activities. Call them Mezo-American robber-barons. They need a Teddy Rossevelt; it's a large part of the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 19 May 07 - 10:27 PM Mexican Billionaires. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Rapparee Date: 19 May 07 - 10:42 PM Taxes in the US are going to go up, probably with the next president, because we have this tiny little debt to pay off.... Get used to the idea -- we can't continue with this "borrow and spend" economy. Personally, I like the "tax and spend" concept, because at least you're paying for for it up front instead of foisting it off on those who come after. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Dickey Date: 20 May 07 - 12:11 AM Bobert: Obviously you are a shill woking for Boss Hogg. Just tell the cheap bastard you want a raise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: katlaughing Date: 20 May 07 - 12:39 AM And, BTW, emergency rooms have become the poor man's only access to health care regardless of race, cred or where you are from... Thanks for pointing that out, Bobert. It has been that way for far too long, imo. Wow, TEN Mexican billionaires to America's FOUR HUNDRED, oh my! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 20 May 07 - 12:56 AM 'but I've been reading about the "Mexican Billionaires," and while there don't seem to be a lot of them, they have all the resources tied up so the working people don't have a chance.' Must have been a short read . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 20 May 07 - 04:37 AM If they are made legal, they will have to pay a fine of $1000.00 right off the bat. Then, after a series of trials and a number of years, they can return to Mexico and apply for citizenship after paying another $4000.00 fine, passing an English proficiency test, and accumulating points based on their education, skills or profession. SUCH A DEAL! Leave it to Bush to take a very good, Liberal rationale (amnesty) and turning it into a cash grab. How many illegals do you think can afford to pay the fine just so they can be denied citizenship on the basis of poverty? What a stupid system! The hard-working father trying to feed his family will never be able to scrape together the money while the drug dealer will have no problem, as long as he does not have a previous record. The current attempt to solve the problem of illegal immigration will solve nothing. It will only provide another level of bureacracy. The only way to solve this problem is to fine employers for hiring illegals or to give the illegals amnesty so that they will have to be paid a a minimum wage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 20 May 07 - 09:36 AM "'but I've been reading about the "Mexican Billionaires," and while there don't seem to be a lot of them, they have all the resources tied up so the working people don't have a chance.' Must have been a short read . . . . " I'm going to give up on this. I don't seem to be able to make the point. You have posted individuals with billions, but the problem, as I understand it, is families with billions. In any event, most of the land and capital is in the hands of a very few people. It's getting to be that way in the US, and it got to be that way just before the Great Depression struck. One could make the point that Mexico has been in a Great Depression since its inception. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 20 May 07 - 10:39 AM Ringinslinger- Nobody denies that income in Mexico is not equitably distributed. Tell me, how would you describe the distribution of income in the US? And why should poor Mexicans not have the opportunity to work for better wages in the US if they cannot get good wages in Mexico? Or would you like to suggest that the US dictate how Mexico should improve its economic situation? I'm sure many Bushites would agree with you. They were never big on national sovereignty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 20 May 07 - 12:25 PM It seems to me that people have been denying the reality of the distribution of wealth in Mexico since I first brought it up. But that aside, one of the primary reasons there are not better paying jobs in Mexico is because most of the capital is so tightly held, nothing is available for economic development there. I agree the comments that employers of illegal aliens ought to be charged, convicted, and jailed. Further, I would agree that all people who work should be paid a decent wage. In addition to that, payroll taxes, insurance for industrial accident, unemployment and health should be paid as well. If that were happening, employers would find hiring immigrants over American workers a lot less tempting. Add to that, taking away the threat to turn immigrants into the authorities if the don't do things just exactly the way the employer wants--work overtime for nothing and ect.--and the appeal to hire them becomes virtually nonexistent. Finally, supply side economists would like to suggest how Mexico could improve its economic situation, but I suspect the Bushites like it just the way it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 20 May 07 - 12:42 PM "In any event, most of the land and capital is in the hands of a very few people." That remark doesn't just apply to Mexico. It applies also to the USA, Canada, England--hell, the whole rest of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 May 07 - 12:49 PM You brought up the Romanians, Lonesome, so I just put the record straight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 20 May 07 - 02:41 PM Reginslinger, I don't think anyone is denying the reality of the distribution of wealth in Mexico. Rather, everyone is basically ignoring that comment as irrelevant to the rest of the discussion. As Peace said, inequities in wealth distribution is a world-wide reality and, even though it is a well known (and well publicized) factoid in the US, it has always been more true in third world and fringe economies than elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 May 07 - 02:54 PM McGrath, I'm actually genuinely curious if Ireland has a special relationship with Romanian immigrants, and why. Does it have to do with a Cold War sanctuary concept? RE: The health care question. Manufacturing companies in the US have difficulty competing with other nations, and one of the principle reasons is the cost of worker's healthcare. The following from hospitalimpact.org... "Let's take a look at this car - the good old American Ford Taurus. What is the single most expensive raw material in this car? It's not metal or computer chips - it's healthcare. In fact, ~$1,800 of healthcare costs goes into each of these cars. Compare that to a Japanese car, let's say the Toyota Matrix. For the typical Japanese car, healthcare costs are ~$200." This model also applies to American Manufacture versus Mexican Manufacture. One of the principle reasons for movement of American manufacturers south of the border is not only cheap labor pay rates, but the fact that manufacturers pay little or nothing for healthcare for workers. As we lose our manufacturing base, and face the accompanying unemployment and loss of tax revenue, isn't it ironic that Mexican workers come to this country to take advantage of availability of free health care, worsening our out-of-control health system costs, putting added pressure on an already unsteady structure, and increasing the manufacturingcost disparity with our competitors? The healthcare crisis in the US is many-pronged and the repercussions are myriad, and unfortunately, there are many who have a vested interest in keeping it at status quo. Look at the way Republicans shot down the Clinton attempt at restructuring the Healthcare System in the 90s. It's time for a hard look at healthcare in conjunction with a stern approach to immigration reform. These are not Republic/Democrat issues, nor are they Liberal?Conservative issues...they are issues of national survival. LEJ (stepping down from soapbox) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 20 May 07 - 03:36 PM So for those of us who might be curious as to why George W. Bush seems to be so concerned about the Mexican immigrants. There was a guy on "Book TV" this morning who'd written a book on Jeb Bush. He stressed the point that, if Jeb Bush were to run as VP in 2008, and then--assuming the Republicans lose--as President in 2012, his Mexican born wife, Columba Bush, would deliver the Latino vote for him. That being the case, it's in the Bush's best interest to turn as many illegal immigrants into citizens as quickly as possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 May 07 - 05:23 PM Romania is one of the 27 countries in the European Union. We've all got the right to go and live in each each other's countries any time we want to. Here is a list. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Rapparee Date: 20 May 07 - 06:43 PM What I greatly fear will happen is that the American car makers will fold and, like so many other companies, leave the taxpayers to pay off the pensions the workers were promised. Spend the pension fund, close up shop, screw those who worked for you for forty years. Check out the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation -- like Fanny Mae, a branch of the US gummint. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 May 07 - 06:53 PM Thanks McG. I'm always learning something on Mudcat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 20 May 07 - 08:56 PM McGrath- I've read, however, that though the UK was very open to Polish workers coming into the UK to work--- (in contrast to the attitude of France and Germany)--, it does not plan to be so welcoming for the new members of the EU. Is this so? (at the risk of egregious thread creep) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Dickey Date: 21 May 07 - 09:06 AM Mr. Terrazas, CEO of TerraHealth, Inc., the No. 1 ranked company on the 2006 Hispanic Business 100 Fastest-Growing Companies directory, uses the elk hunting in Montana caveat to demonstrate how important it is to have the knowledge and foresight needed to navigate challenging business terrain. Much of TerraHealth's 8,338 percent five-year growth rate is due to the specialized knowledge Mr. Terrazas gained while working as a Medical Service Corps officer while on active duty with the U.S. Air Force. His knowledge of the Department of Defense procurement systems and military healthcare missions drove TerraHealth gross sales figures from $180,000 in 2001 to $15.19 million in 2005. Founded in 2001, TerraHealth provides medical staffing, consulting, and IT support for hospitals and other healthcare providers. A separate division, organized in the company's third year of operations and named Total Warfighting Support, literally bolsters Department of Defense war-fighting missions through IT, engineering, staff augmentation, consulting, and training. http://dinero.aol.com/especiales/hispanic-heritage-month/hispanicheritagemonth_canvas/_a/terrahealth-no1-on-fastest-growing/20060906182809990001 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Dickey Date: 21 May 07 - 09:44 AM Bobert March 23 2005: "Life is good and if any Catters ever gonna be in the Shanandoah Valley fir anything, ya' let me know an' we'll hook up" Bobert May 19 2007: "My standard of living has been going down steadily for the last 6 years" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Dickey Date: 21 May 07 - 10:28 AM I am against this immigration bill. We don't need a new set of laws to try to enforce. What we need is enforcement of the ones we have and improvemnets in the immigration process. Before people here start in calling me a racist, my stance on Immigration is that is a good thing if done legally. America needs the workers and it needs them to follow the laws. This whole country was built on immigration. Remember the Great American Melting Pot? Instead of a wall on the border, there should be another statue of liberty welcoming Hispanic immigrants. That said, Illegal Immigrants should not be forgiven for being here illegally. They should be made to go through the legal channelsm that exist. But those channels should be widened and speeded up and quotas raised while businesses that hire illegal aliens should prosecuted for violating the law. Whatever money that would be spent on more border agents and a multi-billion dollar wall should be spent on speeding up the immigration and naturalization process and screening for criminals. Last but not least, the minimum wage should be raised to at least $10 per hour for Americans and legal Immigrants. This alone would be an incentive for ilegal immigrats to become legal but the immigration system is a bottleneck that should be streamlined. Here is an interesting article on the problem |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 21 May 07 - 02:05 PM "...if Jeb Bush were to run as VP in 2008, and then--assuming the Republicans lose--as President in 2012, his Mexican born wife, Columba Bush, would deliver the Latino vote for him." Many of the supporters of this bill are behind a "draft Jeb Bush for president" movement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 21 May 07 - 02:10 PM What's to say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 21 May 07 - 02:23 PM If you like George W., you'll love Jeb. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 21 May 07 - 02:39 PM LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 21 May 07 - 03:05 PM Would he have a chance running against Obama? HC? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 21 May 07 - 04:14 PM Yeah, as long as he carries the Latino vote, and providing his brother makes them all citizens first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Stringsinger Date: 21 May 07 - 05:04 PM bush has already legalized himself. now then how 'bout Lie-berman? F. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 21 May 07 - 05:10 PM Does anyone know the status of House Resolution 333? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Willie-O Date: 21 May 07 - 06:26 PM "Many of the supporters of this bill are behind a "draft Jeb Bush for president" movement. " Except the Democrats, them, not so much for Jeb. Yeah, whatever. I'm gonna give Americans the benefit of the doubt here. Which I am loath to do since 2004. But things being what they are, unless there's a whole bunch of good news out of Iraq (right!), and the economy that W has wrecked by pretending his world-domination-by-force hobby was more important, I don't think we can anticipate yet another President, or even nominee, named Bush in the next couple of decades. Jeb would need a lot more than a Mexican-born wife to pull that off. But look out for either of the twins (I'm guessing Barbara, she seems to be able to avoid the trouble light better) around 2030. Even Michael Moore likes them! W-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 21 May 07 - 06:33 PM Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary on 4/24/2007, Peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 21 May 07 - 06:36 PM How long before they can act on it (if they do) Art? (Thank you, BTW.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 21 May 07 - 07:06 PM They can act any time, but don't hold your breath. Since it takes a 2/3 vote of the Senate to convict, a vote of the House to impeach would basically be a symbolic waste of everybody's time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 21 May 07 - 07:38 PM yo Dickey, Why can't one look at one's standard of living as going down while still no thinking that life is good???... Life and standard of living are not the same... But you probably wouldn't understand that... Ask you parents of garndparents who came thru the Depression... There is something about having to live a little closer to the land to eat that brings a higher "quality of life" while one's "standard of living" might be going the other way... Like I said, you prolly don't understnd that... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 21 May 07 - 07:52 PM "2/3 vote of the Senate to convict" OH. Then this ain't about to happen. I guess the thread title should then include Republicans, too. Thanks for your help understanding this thing. In Canada, the government 'falls' when there is a dismal vote on an important bill proposed by the ruling party. If the bill is defeated, it is assumed that there is no-confidence in the ruling party and they have to call a general election. Is it 2/3 in the House or 3/4? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 21 May 07 - 07:54 PM "Even Michael Moore likes them!" The Bush twins? That's kind of hard to believe. One of them wrote a book, or at least, had somebody write a book for her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 21 May 07 - 07:58 PM "Does anyone know the status of House Resolution 333?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 21 May 07 - 08:00 PM Whoops, sorry. "Does anyone know the status of House Resolution 333?" "Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary on 4/24/2007, Peace." What are we talking about here? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 21 May 07 - 08:37 PM There is no "Democrat" and "Republican" in the Senate or in the Executive Branch. Both parties vote for big government. It's a bureaucracy, and bureaucracies survive by expanding. Why are you folks still working at cross-purposes on this simplest of all issues? Ted Kennedy and GWBush are both FOR legalizing 30 million criminals. That doesn't "benefit" either of the so-called parties in America. But what it does do is kill Social Security, for starters, and then put a permanent drain on the U.S. Treasury. And American taxpayers will be told that the amnesty was a "mistake" later on, and taxes will have to go up, etc., etc., etc... You've heard it all before. Reagan's 1986 amnesty was going to be a "one-time amnesty," and over the past 20 years we've heard what a mistake it was, and NOW THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT ON A SCALE 20 TIMES LARGER. The US dollar is now falling in value at about 2 cents per week. A year from now your dollar will buy half a dollar's worth of goods and services. And this is happening because you've put your trust in one of the "parties." THEY'RE WORKING TOGETHER to destroy America. America will be reduced to a Mexico-level country in the very near future, and when your "standard of living" means working all day to earn a tamale and a bowl of beans, don't even THINK about going up to the hacienda on the hill to steal a tomato. Blackwater mercs will blow your ass away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 May 07 - 09:07 PM "THEY'RE WORKING TOGETHER to destroy America. " Nope. They're not "working at it" They're all so incompetent (because they can't see beyond the end of their selfish rich noses) that they will just stuff it up .... as usual... Never ascribe to malice what is more easily explained by mere stupidity... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 21 May 07 - 09:58 PM A little realism might possibly be called for here. Ringenslinger-- Do you honestly believe that the wife of a candidate can "deliver" an entire ethnic group? I have this bridge I was saving for Teribus but... Offhand, I'd say that the outcome of this fight on overhaul of immigration laws might just possibly have more of an impact. And unless Jeb comes out NOW against "touch-back" and the $5,000 fine--and in favor of a bill without either---, he can kiss the Hispanic vote goodbye---since both of these seem to be just fine with GWB. They're not just fine--and anybody named Bush will have to learn this. It's also not clear that Hispanics and their supporters will sign on to a bill where the emphasis changes from the current family preference to skills desired. Particularly since all Hispanics have to do is wait a bit--demographics are their friend--and nobody else's. There's no question that both the Democrats and Republicans will need Hispanic votes progressively more--and that won't change any time soon. Handing the presidency to Jeb Bush is just a bit premature. It may take a while--like forever--unless he makes the changes I've outlined. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 21 May 07 - 10:04 PM Riginslinger, HR 333 is the resolution to impeach Dick Cheney. Peace, I'm pretty sure that the vote to impeach requires only a simple majority. In the US system, the House impeaches (which means about the same as indicting) and the Senate trys and finds the party guilty or innocent. No sitting President or VP has ever been convicted after being impeached. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 21 May 07 - 10:18 PM Thank you again, Art. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 22 May 07 - 12:23 AM Yes, thanks on HR 333. "Do you honestly believe that the wife of a candidate can "deliver" an entire ethnic group?" And no, I suspect Latinos think for themselves like everybody else, but that's what the journalist from Florida who wrote the book on Jeb Bush said that's what he thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 22 May 07 - 12:50 AM Currently, it's a crime to knowingly hire an illegal immigrant, and the fines range as high as $10,000 per offense. But those laws are rarely enforced, and employers are rarely prosecuted. No new laws, legislation or fence is needed. Its already a crime to hire an illegal immigrant. Enforce the law and the problem will be solved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Dickey Date: 22 May 07 - 02:10 AM Bobert: I can understand when somebody contradicts themselves and tries to backpedal their way out of it. What was in the rest of that post hummm? Not a word about how bad things were getting worse all the time like you claim now. Yeah, I'm in touch. You keep fading in and out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Dickey Date: 22 May 07 - 02:17 AM And Bobert, this Immigration Reform is the perfect wedge issue, even better than Iraq, for splitting off a big hunk of voters. Then the Politicians will be adding up the possible votes if they are for war in Iraq and against amnesty or against Iraq and for amnesty. Or they are for both or against both. It's all about votes, not what is best for the country and you/we foot the bill, not Boss Hogg and he is the one that wants the cheap labor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 22 May 07 - 02:32 AM Here's a pleasant little bit of video, a little over 3 minutes long. In the "politically correct" community of Seattle last year, illegals took over the streets in a way that would land citizens in jail. But police all over America are under orders not to touch illegals because, well...they're here doing a job, dammit. They left their own stinking countries so they could destroy ours. So anyway, hundreds of illegals swarming around the streets, blocking traffic and breaking the law, and an American citizen showed actual defiance. So the police had to put the hurt on him. Watch the video...this is how American police treat Americans over the issue of "immigration." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOe5uYFcXzY Fortunately a lot of communities have their police trained better. This is just how the gutless freaks in Seattle allow their cops to behave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 22 May 07 - 02:42 AM You "liberals" are told you need to eliminate your genes with one-child policies, abortions, even suicide. Lots of stories on that the past couple of weeks, especially from Britain. White people telling other whites to quit breeding and die. But on the other side of the coin, here's what the hispanic perfessers are saying: "We have an aging white America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population... I love it. They are sh!tting in their pants with fear. I love it.... We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him." ~ Jose Angel Gutierrez, professor, University of Texas. "Our devil has pale skin and blue eyes..." "To the gringos in the audience, I have one final message to convey, 'Up yours, baby. You've had it, from now on.' " ~ Jose Angel Gutierrez, professor, University of Texas. "We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos... non-Latinos aren't watching, they aren't raising questions" ~ Fernando Guerra, professor, Loyola Marymount See, Mexican nationals haven't been schooled in the niceties of political correctness. While we Americans impose it on ourselves, and while Al Gore and the others sell us the bullshit that we need to commit suicide to "save the planet," Mexicans are being taught a whole different set of values. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 22 May 07 - 08:39 AM "No new laws, legislation or fence is needed. Its already a crime to hire an illegal immigrant." dianavan--You're right, that's all that needs to be done. That's a pretty powerful video, Anti - Im. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 22 May 07 - 08:45 AM Mexicans, huh?...both Prof. Guerra and Prof. Guitierez are US citizens, born in the US. The statements attributed to Prof. Guitierez are apparently paraphrases of statements made in an interview he gave in 1969. Personally, there are a lot of things I said or did 38 years ago that don't have much to do with me today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 22 May 07 - 10:26 AM Still, the Nation of Aztlan is very much alive today, as is the student group MEChA, and they get a lot of their political support and energy from Latinos in academia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 22 May 07 - 01:18 PM In the main, the demonstration in Seattle on May 1 st, 2006 was orderly. The idea that "illegals took over the streets" is disingenuous. Estimates of the crowds varied from 20,000 to 65,000, it was essentially orderly, and in most of the city, it was business as usual. The idea that all of the people—or even a large portion of them—were "illegals" is simply untrue. There were, of course, a number of hecklers, but their numbers were minuscule. And there may be more than meets the eye in that video, Anti-Im. From a KIRO-TV News report for May 1, 2006 about the demonstration in Seattle: Seattle Police bicycle officers made three arrests during the rally. Officer Debra Brown said that bicycle police responding to reports of a disturbance and found some people brandishing weapons. Police made the three arrests about 5:30 p.m.Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 22 May 07 - 01:27 PM Looking at the video, it was an obvious set-up (otherwise, why was it so carefully filmed?). The "American citizen show(ing) actual defiance" had his arm extended out of his sunroof - middle finger extended - clearly trying to provoke the marchers. An officer told him to lower his arm, and he refused. The officer repeated himself, and he refused again. At which point the officers took him out of the car and cuffed him. Sounds like a valid charge of inciting to riot could be made against him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 22 May 07 - 01:39 PM On the other hand, watching the video of the cop in LA hitting the Hispanic in the park with a night-stick was much the same thing. The cop told the guy to "Move on," the guy refused to obey, so the cop hit him in the legs with the night-stick. The following day, 60 cops got laid off so the mayor could launch an investigation. It looks like a one-sided deal to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 22 May 07 - 01:52 PM Guerra and Gutierrez are Mexican where it matters--in their minds. If they love Mexico so much, let them move there. They won't have the right to free speech in Mexico. And as far as a statement being in the past and no longer applicable, screw you artbrooks. There, that was a couple of seconds in the past, so let's just forget about it. And why isn't the "gringo" talk addressed by any of you brainiacs? That's a derogatory term. What would you do if I were talking about "niggers" or...what's that term arch-racist Jesse Jackson used to use...oh, "Hymie Town." Yeah, what if I were peppering my posts with those words--would that be defended on Mudcat? Below is a link to some other loving statements from hispanic community leaders: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=133597&Disp=8&Trace=on Man, the easiest people in the world to dupe are the academics and the "liberals." With liberals, you just have to focus their attention on an individual. Show little Juan suffering in the Arizona desert while he invades America for "a better life," but just don't mention the oppressive conditions that drove him out of Mexico. And don't mention that it's understood he'll work to "extend" Mexico because, well, the animals who drove him out of the country still patrol the streets of his family's village with automatic weapons. Just type in 'Oaxaca teachers strike guns' to see how Mexico treats its public servants. Here's a bit about a recent incident: ...Later that day, gunmen ambushed and opened fire on Triqui indigenous members of the APPO near Putla in the Mixteca region of the state, killing three people and wounding two; the Triquis were on their way to an assembly meeting. Also that day, federal and state agents dressed in civilian clothes and armed with AR-15 assault rifles, beat and detained a leader of one of the largest organizations in the APPO, the Popular Revolutionary Front (FPR), German Mendoza Nube. Nube has been wheel-chair bound since 1987 when he was shot in the lower spine. He also suffers from severe diabetes. Two friends and neighbors were helping Nube get out of a car and into his wheelchair when the armed men pulled up in three cars and immediately beat him and threw him into the back of a pick-up truck... The next day, Thursday August 10, the APPO convoked a march to demand the liberty of Torres Pereda and Mendoza Nube. Around 12,000 people marched toward the occupied CORTV station when they were ambushed in a narrow stretch of Morelos Avenue around 7:15 at night. Gunmen shot from both sides of the street, wounding three people and killing one. Jose Colmenares, a 50 year-old mechanic, joined the march to support his wife, a junior-high teacher from Ejutla. A gunman who ran out into the street shot Colmenares in the neck and heart. He died minutes later. Marchers detained at least 8 suspects, and found a pistol, gloves, police boots and jackets in the house and health clinic from which the shots had been fired. Protestors set fire to the house to force hiding gunmen out, but they appeared to have escaped, and within half an hour protestors allowed firefighters access to the house. Firefighters extinguished the flames within minutes. In the town square, tourists continued to sip coffee and listen to roaming mariachi musicians apparently oblivious to the gunshots and flames only a mile away.... http://www.corrugate.org/granito_de_arena/news/update_on_the_teachers_situation_in_oaxaca_august_14th At least the thugs who work for the Mexican government aren't nancy-boy bicyclists like they have in Seattle. And you smug Canadians better take note that Seattle is pretty close to you. And those angry Mexican mobs are being held by cops wearing shorts and riding around on bicycles between lattes. Looks like Canada is going to be part of Azlan, too. Get your asses back to Europe, gringos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 22 May 07 - 02:08 PM Inciting to riot. The same cameraman who filmed that incident had lots of footage of obscene hispanics cursing and spitting at him, too. I heard the cameraman interviewed on radio. So the hispanics were screaming at and threatening non-hispanics, but the nancy-boy cops didn't bother them. And what about the people in the background of the bit of film at the link--screaming and cursing and beating the man's car--why didn't the nancy-boys deal with them? The people in the background were breaking the law too. One man was sitting in his car...on streets he pays for with tax money...and he exercised his First Amendment right of freedom of expression. And he was smacked down by the gutless cops. You defenders of the foreign invasion of America make me sick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: robomatic Date: 22 May 07 - 02:13 PM In the broad range of pre-history and history, the beautiful flora and fauna and topography of the Americas was first usurped by the humans who came over the landbridge and attacked the peaceful animals to make houses out of their skins and clothes, tools, and weapons from their bones and sinews. Makes me gorge rise to think of it. After millenia of this kind of rampant abuse of their fellow creatures spread up and down the entire grand continent. Then came the vile Spanish and perfidious English to steal the land from under the existing inhabitants and enslave the populace in order to grow the murderous vegetable we call tobacco, and feed the poor of old Europe on inadequately processed grain, thus giving their own people pellagra when the indigenous population had on their own developed the processes to liberate all the nutrients that maize had to offer. After the conquest of South America by the horrible Spanish and Portuguese and their Church, the dominaition of North America by the awful Dutch, English, and French, and their churches, were brought forth the hosts of Europe as cheap labor to lay railroad tracks and blast big big holes through the scenery, not to mention dig up huge tracts of overburden to obtain gold, silver, copper, and coal. When Irish, Norwegian, German, Swedish, Russian and Polish labor failed to satisfy, the capitalists reached across the Pacific to bring in Japanese, Chinese, Polynesians, to toil in the fields, dig in the rock, scrub the dirty clothes, and cut down the forests. Througout this period, the original exploiters, the natives, had limited opportunities to play the plunder game or be exterminated. The other exploiters who had settled to the West and South had been for the most part dispossessed of their settlements to the West and forced South. But they could send their children north across the boarder to pick the fruits and harvest the grains, for very little money and practically no protection under the law. The above has nothing to do with what is right, or legal. It's simply the way things were. And by the way, bad as it might sound, it was a hell of a lot better than the way the inhabitants of Europe conducted their affairs. The 'system' as constituted has LONG permitted illegal immigration as a cost effective method of getting certain seasonal jobs done. More lately, with the commoditazation of labor, labor has taken advantage of the opportunities afforded, and the hardworking people of the south have expanded into territory that has rewarded them with pay. They have taken the opportunities to make their situations legal and been foisted off on a system that has purposely and cynically used them as a subterranean commodity within its huge economy. Comes now an honest attempt to regularize the situation. If it is done half intelligently (a miracle in the current political climate), it would be most welcome, because it is not just a matter of justice, but it is also a matter of national security. I have my doubts, because the necessary fallout of such a bill would be the necessity of enforcing it which would mean an honest enforcement of the southern border. I'll believe it when I see it. Spanish is a noble tongue. Mexican food is an underappreciated culinary achievement. Mexicans and South Americans are also underappreciated by most Yanks. We don't know how lucky we are. Bring 'em on! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 22 May 07 - 02:16 PM On the other hand, dianavan was right. All they would have to do is enorce the laws that are on the books now, and none of this would be happening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,diana Date: 22 May 07 - 04:03 PM Thats right, Riginslinger! Instead of arresting the real criminals (the businesses who hire illegals), they prefer to turn this into a racial issue. Divide and conquer is the oldest strategy in the book. As to the video the sound track was a little over the top. How do you know that the man gesturing was protesting illegal immigration, ifor? Its possible he was exhibiting road rage. Most people who object to peaceful demonstrations are those who are inconvenienced by the snarl of traffic. He should have been arrested for inciting a riot. btw - The Mexican in the park was not attempting to turn a peaceful group, hostile. Furthermore, there wouldn't be a "foreign invasion" if you enforced your own damn laws. You create your own problems so that businesses can get away with hiring illegals at half the price and avoid their responsibilities. Its the businesses who take advantage of the system and exploit other human beings who should be criminalized, not the Mexicans who are trying to feed their families. Either prosecute the business people who hire illegals (like the law says) or give them amnesty so that they can fully contribute to American life. Building walls is not an option. There is no wall high enough or long enough and it only increases the profit of smugglers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 22 May 07 - 04:04 PM I hate dropping my cookies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 22 May 07 - 05:48 PM Enforce the laws. Fine. DEPORT THEM! "Fining those who hire" is being done plenty--it's part of the war against the American middle class taxpayer. Illegals have no freakin' money, so there's no benefit to busting them. Enforce ALL the laws and deport the 30 million illegals. Simple enough. Good idea. Here's a page full of fun. Audio clips from the leaders of the hispanic community. My favorite is #14, Augustin Cebeda. It is my duty to die. http://www.theamericanresistance.com/race_industry/true_agenda_audio.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 22 May 07 - 05:48 PM "Either prosecute the business people who hire illegals (like the law says) or give them amnesty so that they can fully contribute to American life." I agree with the first part of this statement. People who are hiring the illegals are not only taking advantage of them, but perverting the market for business folks who are trying to play a straight game. As far as giving them amnesty, I'm afraid of the population explosion that would create, among other things, but I firmly believe that people who work should expect to make a living wage, and the benefits that should go along with working. If the employers had to pay a decent wage and benefits, the incentive to hire illegal aliens would dry up in pretty short order. When you got to that point, assuming you could, then I think a guest worker program would make sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 22 May 07 - 08:54 PM I guess giving California back is out of the question . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 23 May 07 - 07:27 AM Maybe not. If more of the pro-illegal-elements would admit that's what they're really trying to bring about, at least it would be out on the table. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Amos Date: 23 May 07 - 10:33 AM It is kind of unfortunate that the Bush administration has so conclusively demonstrated its inability to manage anything well, whether war or succor or anything in between. Otherwise the administration of an efficient amnesty for present residents combined with firmer controls for future admissions -- including merit based citizenships -- would be a balanced solution. I see no reason why an amnesty should cause a population explosion, except by reproduction, which is built in to the equation. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Dickey Date: 23 May 07 - 11:52 AM The disastrous Citizenship USA project of 1996 was a luminous case of politics driving the INS to sacrifice enforcement to "benefits." When, in the early 1990s, the prospect of welfare reform drove immigrants to apply for citizenship in record numbers to preserve their welfare eligibility, the Clinton (awwk awwk) administration, seeing a political bonanza in hundreds of thousands of new welfare-dependent citizens, ordered the naturalization process radically expedited. Thanks to relentless administration pressure, processing errors in 1996 were 99 percent in New York and 90 percent in Los Angeles, and tens of thousands of aliens with criminal records, including for murder and armed robbery, were naturalized. http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 23 May 07 - 12:52 PM "I see no reason why an amnesty should cause a population explosion, except by reproduction," Recent records show that most of the population growth in the US is caused by both immigration and offspring of immigrants. A lot of it is by reproduction, but that doesn't make it any more desirable. In fact, the situation that allows new borns automatic citizenship increases both immigration and the desire to have a child here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: beardedbruce Date: 23 May 07 - 02:29 PM Dobbs: New immigration plan ignores history's lessons POSTED: 9:10 a.m. EDT, May 23, 2007 By Lou Dobbs CNN Editor's Note: Lou Dobbs' commentary appears weekly on CNN.com. NEW YORK (CNN) -- There are times when reason carries the mind no further, when the mind is carried from the rational across the penumbra of the absurd. That is where the leadership of the U.S. Senate now resides. What many once regarded as the world's great deliberative body looks more like a clamorous bazaar in which senators feverishly hawk duplicity and deceit as bright jewels of public policy. Comprehensive immigration reform is just such a bauble, and buyer beware. Most beguiling among those merchants of mendacity is none other than Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, who has been peddling his wares at the Senate bazaar for more than four decades. Kennedy's counterfeit immigration views reach all the way back to his championship of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. In signing that legislation into law, President Lyndon Johnson promised it would not be revolutionary or affect the lives of millions, even as it overturned 60 years of U.S. immigration policy of national origin quotas and led to the creation of explosive chain migration. Twenty-one years later, President Ronald Reagan signed into law amnesty for more than three million illegal aliens who had entered the country. President Reagan then promised the new employer sanctions would "remove the incentive for illegal immigration by eliminating the job opportunities," and that the law's amnesty provision would allow millions who were hiding in the shadows to "step into the sunlight." And now, another 21 years later, we hear the same language as the pro-amnesty and open borders advocates demand that American citizens ignore history, reason and the national interest. They are again marketing the same false assurances about border enforcement and insist there will be no social or economic cost to the taxpayer or the nation. More than four decades of disruptive and destructive immigration policy initiatives should be a sufficient history lesson for all Americans. The essential truth is clear: We cannot reform immigration law until we control immigration, and we cannot control immigration until we control our borders and our ports. This president and the congressional Democratic leadership refuse to recognize that reality and will not honor that truth. President Bush and Sen. Kennedy pass for political stars in our tortured times, and that is sad enough. But if we follow the course they've set, true tragedy awaits us. And the fault will be ours. The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the writer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 23 May 07 - 02:58 PM For a somewhat more centrist perspective, here is Ruben Navarrette's column for today. I take no credit or blame for the site itself - it had the column available with no log-in requirement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: beardedbruce Date: 23 May 07 - 03:14 PM Art, That is a reasonable commentary. I agree with most of it. There SHOULD be SOME penalty for having ignored the law, when so many others DO follow the rules and are still waiting to be granted status. There SHOULD be a means for those who came illegally to pay that, and get in line with the others who wish to come here. There MUST be enforcement of the present laws, both on immigration AND on the fines for employment of illegal immigrants. I have no problem with a guest worker program, but if there will be citizenship granted, ALL people should have to meet the standards imposed on any particular group- such as Eastern Europeans and others who want to come here. Not fair having that those who came in illegally get in line ahead of those who have been trying to get here legally, and have been made to wait. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 23 May 07 - 04:17 PM Canada used to have what was called a 'landed immigrant status'. You could apply for it inside the country. In other words, you could cross into Canada and then apply for legal immigrant status. You were entitled to most of the same benefits as citizens (excluding welfare) but you couldn't vote. Its no longer a policy in Canada but it might work in the U.S. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 23 May 07 - 04:22 PM "For a somewhat more centrist perspective, here is Ruben Navarrette's column for today" Navarrette is one of the most extreme voices out there. He seems like a "Nation of Aztlan" bomb thrower to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST Date: 23 May 07 - 04:25 PM Jay Leno on the Tonight Show last night said, on the subject of paying a $5000 fine before being able to 'touch back' commented that those who were here working at minimum wage jobs would not be able to pay but those who were dealing in drugs, no prob. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 23 May 07 - 08:26 PM Since when did the word "amnesty" become a four letter word??? I fear that the right wing has put eough PR $$$$ to do to this word what it did a couple decades to the word "liberal"... This is what the right wing does... It uses maga PR buck$$$ to reduce anything or anybody to a ***bumper sticker*** target of ***hate***... But, hey, that is one advantage that the right wing has over thinking and compassionate people: thier constituency which is, by in large, ignorant and angry white people, of which there is no shortage... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 23 May 07 - 10:05 PM OK, Ringinslinger-- Would you mind giving us one piece of a bomb thrown by Navarette? Did you even read the article Art linked to? For instance "These folks (the illegal immigrants) broke our laws and they need to make restitution on our terms". Why do so many people around here feel compelled to shoot from the hip? Sometimes it seems Mudcat really is, as somebody put it recently, a site that uses the WORN protocol----Write Only, Read Never. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 07 - 12:11 AM Actually, I've been reading Navarette for a while now. He has a political agenda that shapes up over time. He almost never writes anything that doesn't promote the Aztlan/MECha story line. But I'll agree, until you get on to him, he seems subtle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 24 May 07 - 12:28 AM The white/black thing is kind of moot at this point in American history. I mean, we have La Raza to deal with. Good article below: Prudhomme was murdered because he identified himself as black (he was in fact mixed-race) in a neighborhood occupied by one of the many Latino street gangs in Los Angeles County. Incredibly, even though these gangs are fundamentally criminal enterprises interested mainly in money, gang experts inside and outside the government say that they are now engaged in a campaign of "ethnic cleansing" -- racial terror that is directed solely at African Americans. "The way I hear these knuckleheads tell it, they don't want their neighborhoods infested with blacks, as if it's an infestation," says respected Los Angeles gang expert Tony Rafael, who interviewed several Latino street gang leaders for an upcoming book on the Mexican Mafia, the dominant Latino gang in Southern California. "It's pure racial animosity that manifests itself in a policy of a major criminal organization." "There's absolutely no motive absent the color of their skin," adds former Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney Michael Camacho. Before he became a judge, in 2003, Camacho successfully prosecuted a Latino gang member for the random shootings of three black men in Pomona, Calif. "They generally don't like African Americans," Pomona gang unit officer Marcus Perez testified in that case. "If an African American enters their neighborhood, they're likely to be injured or killed." http://www.alternet.org/story/46855/ The KKK is a brittle old memory now, but the FBI keeps propping it up to keep the black/white thing going, and Jesse Jackson and Sharpton stoke the fires, and that's the way the govt-owned media wants it. Look at the quote below: "We have Nicaragua, soon we will have El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Costa Rica, and Mexico. One day, tomorrow or five years or fifteen years from now, we're going to take 5 to 10 million Mexicans and they are going into Dallas, into El Paso, into Houston, into New Mexico, into San Diego, and each one will have embedded in his mind the idea of killing ten Americans." ~Thomas Borge, Nicaragua Interior Minister as quoted in the Washington Times, March 27, 1985 Notice he didn't say "killing ten whites." He said "Americans." White, black, Asian, doesn't matter to him. The worst racists I have ever known are hispanic. I see their opinions being fed to them by their media and community leaders, and maybe they have justified gripes, but I don't think we should legalize 30 million criminals who want to kill us. Just seems so...suicidal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 24 May 07 - 07:45 AM That's several quotes from an article originally written for the Southern Poverty Law Center about Hispanic vs. Black gang violence in LA, which has been going on for a very long time (and doesn't seem to have much to do with immigration), and a 20-year-old threat from one of the more rabid of the original Sandinistas. I am reminded of the Know-Nothing Party of the 1950, who were also anti-immigrant. Rather than being anti-Hispanic, they were anti-Irish and anti-Catholic; one of their "accomplishments" was destroying the stone that the Pope had sent for inclusion in the Washington Monument, then under construction. Like many of the current crop of anti-immigrants, hey also felt that the allegedly higher birth-rate among Catholics and the Irish in particular would destroy American culture. Aztlan? Yes, there may still be some Hispanics of Aztec (or Mexican) descent who think that the American Southwest and the Mexican Northwest should be split off into a separate nation. There are also fringe cases among African Americans, such as some members of the nation of Islam, who believe in black separatism, some militia members who would like to break off from the US (or to reform it in their image), some religious cultists who don't think the laws of the US apply to them, and so forth. However, those groups also don't appear to have much to do with immigration. The majority of Americans of Hispanic origin believe, like Navarrette, that there is a serious problem here, and that placing the illegals on a fast track toward legal status isn't the answer...but that immediate deportation (besides being impractical) isn't either. Where I live, in New Mexico (yes, that is a state in the United States, regardless of the name), many of the residents descend from families that have been here since some years before the Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts. Some isolated enclaves still have Spanish as their first language, and I am told that it is a very old dialect of the language; many others do not speak Spanish at all. Yet, very few of the letters to the paper from people with Hispanic surnames favor an unrestricted opening of the gates to people from the south. It is clear, I'm sorry to say, that at least two of the active participants in this discussion equate Hispanics with illegal immigrants (and vice versa). There are large numbers of illegal residents in the US from Ireland, China, Poland, and, yes, even Canada, but these people do not seem to be part of the problem. Are you as vehement about immigrants, legal or not, from Spain? Could it be that the issue is really with the fact that the majority of them, right now, are from Mexico and Central and South America, are part Indian in ancestry, and are darker in complexion? Please, don't lash right back - take a while to think about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 07 - 08:33 AM "The majority of Americans of Hispanic origin believe, like Navarrette, that there is a serious problem here, and that placing the illegals on a fast track toward legal status isn't the answer...but that immediate deportation (besides being impractical) isn't either." I think you've highlighted the hole in your agrument by including this observation. No one on the side of containing runaway immigration who I've heard is trying to make the case that all of these illegals should be deported. This is a point that Tom Tancredo makes over and over, but the corporate dominated media in America refuses to pick it up. Multinational corporations in America want cheaper and cheaper labor, and the more people they can get to bid on their jobs the cheaper that labor becomes. The mainstream media is an arm of this corporate animal and they do what is asked of them. One of their ploys is to continue to announce that "deportation isn't practical." This plays into the hands of people like Navarrette, Loretta Sanchez, the mayor of Los Angeles, and the lieutenant governor of California. All of whom want to see the Latino populations explode because that brings more political power to themselves. To indicate that Navarrette is an honest broker in this dialogue is naive in the extreme. I would agree that the huge majority of the immigrants are innocent pawns in this struggle, but so are native born American workers. I suspect there are solutions to these problems, but the bill the corporate hit-men are trying to pass in the Senate is most definately not the answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 24 May 07 - 09:32 AM artbrook -- you have a group of people running around calling themselves La Raza (the race). The race is going to take over this, kill that, etc. Look up some of La Raza's history and writings. They actually DO what liberals accuse the dead-and-gone KKK of doing. Racial politics being practiced in your face, and it's not a problem? Look at all the flak the "white extremist groups" get. Racism is racism, but the hispanic racism is the worst I've ever seen in America. The old "nigger don't let the sun go down on you here" mentality has been transplanted from the south to California. Hispanics killing blacks simply because they're black. And the southern California problem is FED by a constant influx of illegals. Homegrown gangs exist, but they might be manageable if recruiting weren't so easy. Shut down the borders and starve the gangs of at least that method of expansion. Illegal immigration is bad all around. Nothing good about it. And lots of hispanics belong to and support La Raza, which is a hate group based on race. Shouldn't be tolerated. People need to quit making excuses for what is sheer racism. La Raza is bad, illegal immigration is bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 24 May 07 - 09:49 AM La Raza |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 07 - 10:17 AM Yeah! There you go. You might have to read between the lines a little--the part about MEChA is absolutely laughable--but the truth is there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 24 May 07 - 12:43 PM I agree. In northern Alaska, the Inupiaq translate their name as 'The People'. I have no doubt that they are planning to take over the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 07 - 12:48 PM The Inupiaq might be a little short of manpower, but the Latinos deffinately are not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 24 May 07 - 01:18 PM Selective presentation of propaganda. That's really sharp. Any group that bases its very name on their race is, by definition, racist. As far as community service, Hitler's people were doing what THEY could to clean up communities, weren't they? I just don't like the La Raza part where they march millions strong on cue and threaten to kill Americans. I can link to some tired old stories about the FBI infiltrating and leading KKK groups, and then contrast that to La Raza and Mecha screamers going on about killing whites, but why bother? If you know the problem is there and choose not to face it, I won't be able to change your mind. Listen to some of the audio clips at the libertypost link above. There are millions of pages of that hate on the internet now, from "the tan klan." And I really do recommend you folks do a search for "The Terry Anderson Show" and go to his website...hell, I'll do it: http://www.theterryandersonshow.com/ Maybe he has some shows archived there. He's a black man in southern California. A conservative. He's watched his home being overrun by criminal illegals while the cops are under orders to look the other way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 24 May 07 - 01:57 PM The figure of 30,000,000 that seems to be being accepted is bullshit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 24 May 07 - 02:29 PM Any group that bases its very name on their race is, by definition, racist. You do know, I assume, that Hispanic/Latino/Chicano is a cultural/linguistic definition rather than a race, right? This same theory thus applies to the NAACP, the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, the American Irish Historical Society, the Chinese-American Citizens Alliance, the Catholic Church... Sorry, but the blatant bigotry is too much for me. I hope that you are able to find a nice cozy WASP enclave, with a good sheet laundry, and never need help from anyone who don't meet your definition of purity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST Date: 24 May 07 - 03:49 PM "I would agree that the huge majority of the immigrants are innocent pawns in this struggle, but so are native born American workers." - You got that right, Riginslinger. Anytime racism comes into play, the workers on both sides are conquered and the businessman wins. This is just a way for irresponsible businesses to avoid criminal prosecution for hiring illegals. If the politicians do anything, they should be seeking enforcment of the law which prohibits the hiring of illegals. Instead, they pit the workers against each other. Its an old game that appeals to racists and it works every time; especially in America. Its called exploitation of the ignorant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 07 - 04:10 PM "Its called exploitation of the ignorant." The really sad part of it is, there are a number of us out here who can see what's going on, but we seem to be helpless to do anything about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 24 May 07 - 04:32 PM You sure get pissy when confronted with reason, artbrooks. "La Raza." The Race. They are THE race, according to their self-identification. You don't have a problem with that? Then I guess you're fine with the Aryan Nation. It's just words, right? As far as "fine the employers," it's being done. But why isn't "deport the illegals" being done? The news shows you 13 here, 110 there, but what about the 100+ that congregate every morning in the post office parking lot where I sometimes stop, 30 miles away? I complain every time to the postal workers inside, and they couldn't care less. One day I heard a man sitting on the curb speaking freakin' Arabic into a cell phone, and the postal workers didn't care. The criminal illegals know they are protected by the federal government, so they congregate in the P.O. parking lot and wait for contractors to pick them up for day-work. The cops then ticket the contractors and NEVER ASK THE ILLEGALS FOR I.D. I walk over and complain to the cops when I see that happening near the parking lot, and luckily we haven't reached the point yet where they beat me down and arrest me--they just say they're "enforcing the law" and cannot even look me in they eye as they utter the words. By the way, you Americans, boycot Home Depot. They have "refreshment centers" for illegal aliens. The illegals can lounge around and wait for contractors to come out of the store after buying supplies. Home Depot actually provides accommodations to known criminals who are waiting to be picked up for day labor. I just found out about this. I'll never spend another penny there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 24 May 07 - 06:14 PM Send some of those immigrants to Canada. Shopped at Home Depot last night. Can't get a house re-roofed. Labor all tied up in the housing boom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 24 May 07 - 07:02 PM Wait a minute. It looks like the housing boom is about to crash. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 30 May 07 - 10:10 PM "I am reminded of the Know-Nothing Party of the 1950, who were also anti-immigrant. Rather than being anti-Hispanic, they were anti-Irish and anti-Catholic; one of their "accomplishments" was destroying the stone that the Pope had sent for inclusion in the Washington Monument, then under construction. Like many of the current crop of anti-immigrants, hey also felt that the allegedly higher birth-rate among Catholics and the Irish in particular would destroy American culture." artbrooks--I think you meant the 1860's. But one of the big differences is, in 1860 the world population was about 1.8 billion. Now it is about 6 billion. By the year 2050 it is expected to reach 9 billion. This population growth is largely coming from those parts of the world where ancient superstitions say population growth is a good thing. In parts of the world where reality has taken hold, population growth has dropped off. Therefore, human migration, from areas of intense population concentrations to areas of moderate concentration threatens the very continued existance of the planet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 30 May 07 - 10:48 PM "freakin' Arabic" Thank God there's nothing racist about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 30 May 07 - 11:40 PM As people get more educated, they realize their standard of living--and that of their kids--is higher when there are fewer mouths to feed. The days of more kids being an advantage-- to help around the farm--are to a large extent over. And believe it or not, they recognize the correlation between standard of living and size of family in Mexico too--as people join the middle class, size of family drops. The Mexican government even sponsored a campaign to that effect, to encourage the process. Yes, I know the Catholic church is a countervailing influence. But in the US, that has been the experience for many immigrant groups. There is no reason to think the 2nd or 3rd generation Mexican-Americans would also not have smaller families. We've had the "yellow peril", now it's the "brown peril". Same tired quasi-racist or baldly racist arguments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 31 May 07 - 12:58 AM Well, when the new invaders say they want to kill you, it's not the same ol same ol. Search the web for the next Mecha meeting in your area, go to it and tell them you're there for hugs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 31 May 07 - 02:09 AM Anti-Im is controlled by fear. Mecha is a student organization that believes that political involvement and education is the avenue for change in our society. Why is that so frightening? Are you afraid that instead of powerless, illegal immigrants; they might become educated professionals who are more successful than you are? Other than your first hand account, do you have a source to prove your that, "As far as "fine the employers," it's being done. How much are they fined? How often? Lets face it, if the fines to employers were substantial and the laws were enforced on a regular basis, there would be no reason to hire illegals and no reason for them to immigrate. The wall is a waste of money and manpower. Why are the National Guard building a wall? Don't they have something better to do? Is America so arrogant that they cannot see that the rest of the world is laughing at them? A wall between Mexico and the U.S. is ridiculous. Who's bright idea is this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 31 May 07 - 07:12 AM At least Anti-Im did choose an appropriate handle. As Art has pointed out, it's just the Know-Nothings redux--back to the 1850's. Good thing for the US that Anti Im's attitude has always lost in the end. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 31 May 07 - 08:46 AM "Mecha is a student organization that believes that political involvement and education is the avenue for change in our society." Yes, MEChA is a student organization, a racist student organization that is organized for the sole puppose of taking over North America by the weight of sheer numbers. Read their literature or visit some of their web-sites and see what they say. "Good thing for the US that Anti Im's attitude has always lost in the end." Probably not a good thing in the end. Ignorance is why we're heading for a world population of 10 billion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 31 May 07 - 08:27 PM My guess is that it wouldn't be many years before the newly-created citizens would be demanding decent wages. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 31 May 07 - 09:32 PM "Besides providing a legitimized, cheap labor force for big businesses, I wonder which way 12-20 million illegal aliens will vote in 2008 if a Republican president makes them all citizens?" I think his handlers are looking beyond 2008. There are pundits out there who make the case that if they can pull this off, Jeb Bush with his Mexican born wife will control the Hispanic vote either as a presidential, or vice-presidential candidate. If he runs as a VP in 2008 and loses, I think we can bank on a Jeb Bush for president campaign in 20012. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 31 May 07 - 10:29 PM There are "pundits out there" who say all matter of drivel. As I asked before, do you really think an ethnic group will be "controlled" by the wife of a candidate--ever? Pushing this prediction into the future is a copout. I know you don't seem to think much of Hispanics--but they do have minds. Added to which, they have no reason to be in the least grateful to Bush if the $5,000 fine and "touch-back" remain in the bill if it is ever passed. And they know it. I predict that if "touch-back" stays in the bill, virtually no illegal immigrants will even come out of the shadows. Trust the creaky machinery of government to let you back in once you leave--not likely. Especially with true friends of immigrants-- like Anti-Im--and some others---trying to find any excuse not to let them back in. So even if the bill as presently set up were to pass, nothing would change--it would be a complete bust from the immigrants' perspective. But the folks yelling "amnesty" would get some of what they want--more border patrolling and maybe even more wall. However, for many reasons, the bill as presently written is likely to crash and burn. Not even the WSJ likes it--and not because of "touch-back". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 31 May 07 - 10:30 PM Sorry--I think it should be "all manner of drivel". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianvan Date: 01 Jun 07 - 01:51 AM The bill as presently written is absolutely no solution. Walls and more border guards won't solve the problem, either. The only way is to grant those already in the country, 'landed immigrant status' which means they will be documented and have the same rights as U.S. citizens except the vote. After that, they can apply for citizenship if they choose. In the meantime, the present laws should be enforced, which means fines for employers who hire illegals. It doesn't matter how many laws you make if there is no enforcement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 01 Jun 07 - 07:57 AM We call that "having a green card" in the US, Dianavan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Jun 07 - 08:10 AM "As I asked before, do you really think an ethnic group will be "controlled" by the wife of a candidate--ever? Pushing this prediction into the future is a copout. I know you don't seem to think much of Hispanics--but they do have minds." Ron-I have nothing against Hispanics. I do have something against runaway population growth. But I think what is important as far as Jeb Bush's Mexican born wife is concerned centers around what the Republican politital operatives think will happen, not what really happens on the ground. If these people were reliably correct in their assumptions, Iraqi nationals would have happily greated American troops with smiles and flowers. "In the meantime, the present laws should be enforced, which means fines for employers who hire illegals." dianvan-I agree completely. The employers are the real culperts here. They are acting solely out of greed. I would go one step further and gleefully throw them in jail. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM Bush and the Democrats ARE criminals! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 01 Jun 07 - 03:57 PM Agreed, they are. Which means we should all be supporting third party candidates. We ought a have an election like low-ball poker where only third party candidates can run, and the guy with the fewest number of votes wins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 01 Jun 07 - 10:56 PM Ring-- You have something against runaway population growth. Fine. So do we all. But as I said earlier, as people get more education, the size of the family tends to drop. Case in point: I was just reading about the Speaker of the California Assembly. Hispanic, came from a poor family--1 of 12 children. I'd hazard a guess that his own family is much smaller. That's the way it goes. You cannot extrapolate huge numbers of kids indefinitely into the future. Also: a question for you. I'm just curious. Try to make the effort to put yourself into the shoes of an illegal immigrant. If you were told you'd have to leave the country--go back to your country of origin--in order to apply to come back, would you agree? Would you trust government bureaucracies to run efficiently--and trust the US government to let you back in? I sure as hell would not. How about you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Peace Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:03 PM Hell, I don't trust governments, period! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:02 AM Ron--I know as people gradually climb the education, socio-economic ladder they have fewer children, but I just don't think we have time for that. That transition needs to take place in their country of origin, and that is happening. If we could just hold off the hordes for another 15 to 20 years, I think we'd be over the hump. Actually, I think it verges on the criminal that one family would have 12 children. If I were the speaker of the Califronia Assembly I'd be embarrassed to mention it. The fact that he's not tells me something of his values. And you're right, I would trust the government for 10 seconds to let me back in the country if I left. That's just one more reason this proposed "guest worker" program is a bad idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM Ring-- You didn't read what I wrote. The speaker of the California assembly did not really have much of a voice in the 12 children. He was one of them. Maybe next time he'll pick parents who are more responsible. His family, however, is much smaller, I would guess. That's my point. That's the way it goes as people climb the economic ladder--especially since the old idea of needing a lot of kids to help around the farm dies out--as the US farming population declines. By and large, people are rational about this--as they get educated. Among other things, the "be fruitful and multiply" injunction of the Church tends to take a back seat to other concerns. Therefore you ought to be a strong supporter of public education for children of illegal immigrants. Are you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 02 Jun 07 - 05:02 PM Ron--I did get what you were saying. The problem I have with someone like the speaker of the CA Assembly--and I'm not saying he is one--is they often wear the size of the family they came from like a badge on honor on their sleeve. I'm saying people from those kinds of backgrounds would be better served to realize the peril that kind of behavior puts the rest of humanity in. "Therefore you ought to be a strong supporter of public education for children of illegal immigrants. Are you?" This is a hard question to answer, in that the education of the children is important both to the children and to the society of which they are members. Where it gets sticky is, once they're here, they're here to stay, so I would answer it this way: I'm all for educating children wherever we find them, but I would rather they be educated in their country of origin, and not imported to the US to become a burden on the public schools here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 02 Jun 07 - 10:16 PM Riginslinger - Do you have children? If you could only find work in Canada and Canada had a better education system than the U.S., where would you want your children educated? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 03 Jun 07 - 10:19 AM Yes, I have children. And yes, I can understand the huge number of reasons why people want to come here. But if the boat continues to pick up floundering people, which in the end causes the boat to sink, we'll all drown. The answer to these people's problems is to straighten out the situation in their own countries. In Mexico they almost pulled it off. Lopez Obrador almost won the last election, and probably would have if so many of his countrymen hadn't run off to the United States. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:47 AM Ring-- There's no reason to speculate that Obrador would have fixed Mexico's problems. One problem appears to be the inefficiency of many government-run monopolies. From his background, it appears he may well not have tackled this. (It's unclear if anybody has the clout to do so). Re: education of illegal immigrants' children: Sorry, there are 12 million (at least) illegals right now in the US. You don't have the luxury to wish they were back in Mexico. That's not an option--and you should be careful what you wish for anyway--their departure would show you immediately to what extent the US economy depends on them. It should be obvious that educating these kids is the right thing to do--among other things to bring in more tax revenue as they get better jobs---and that it has to be done in the US. I'd also like an answer to my observation that taking away birthright citizenship--especially if you also refuse to educate the children of illegals in public schools-- would create a young uneducated underclass with no stake in the country--as in France. Why would that be such a good idea? How has it worked out for France? And in France, the immigrants may not want education in public schools--but the illegals here definitely do---and it's essential for assimilation. ESL is another topic--I think a strong argument can be made for the end of ESL. English only in public schools--except if the subject itself is Spanish, for instance. And learning at least a bit of Spanish would be a good idea for all Americans. I actually find learning other languages to be very rewarding--and fun. Though obviously I can't expect everybody to share that attitude. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:00 PM Maybe its different in the States but in Canada ESL instruction is English language instruction. It does not mean that subjects are taught in the student's first language. Why would you want to end ESL instruction? Its our best method of preventing groups of alienated youth. The sooner a student learns English, the better. Otherwise you return us to the days of sink or swim which is no way to educate anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM OK Dianavan--many waves of immigrants have successfully assimilated--without ESL. Why should this be no longer true? There is a huge incentive in the US for children of immigrants to learn English--and there always has been. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM Also, when you get into ESL, you raise the spectre of special treatment. Why ESL for Spanish speakers--but not for Vietnamese, Russians, etc? And many school districts cannot afford to cater to each ethnicity that might be involved. Do you have any idea how many ethnicities there are in the Los Angeles area? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:37 PM I don't know how it is in the U.S. but in Canada, English instruction (ESL) is available to anyone who is learning English. Vietnames, Russians, etc. would have the same opportunity. In my ESL classes, there are many, many different first languages. They are all learning English and only English is used in class. Yes, "many waves of immigrants have successfully assimilated" but that does not mean school was a pleasant experience for their children. Without English, a child will struggle and feel alienated. The sooner they are able to learn English, the sooner they are able to take part in the full spectrum of educational opportunities and socially integrate with their peers. Otherwise, the schools are faced with sorting out the problems that are associated with discrimination. The 'gang' problem would be totally out of control if students could only communicate with those who shared their first language. Its about social integration. If you worked in France, would you place your child in a school where he/she was expected to learn French overnight? Do you really think it is fair to expect a child to sit in class and not understand a word that is being spoken? Far better to give them language instruction so that they can actually learn something and make some new friends. btw - most of my ESL kindergarten students are able to fully integrate by grade 2 or 3 and compete quite well with their peers. In fact, they usually do better. Perhaps that's the real problem. Parents don't want their spoiled, little darlings to have to compete with kids who actually value education. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:48 PM ESL, almost by definition is not first-language-specific. My brother teaches it; he is currently working in a program that teaches Puerto Rican Army enlistees enough English that they can go on to basic training. It isn't really different (except for being more systematic) from the English night schools that generations of our own ancestors attended (my French and German greatgrandparents and Jenn's Russian grandparents, for example). These people, whether they originate from Mexico, Ireland, Poland (the three top sources of illegal migrants) or elsewhere mostly want to either become legal US residents (and citizens, some day), and pay taxes and assume all of the other obligations associated with residency, or to work here as non-citizens (paying taxes, etc), send money home and return home themselves some day. Living on the dole and letting someone else (i.e., clean livin' nat'ral-born (that is, White) Amercans) support them isn't their intent-we have enough people here already who have that as their goal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:45 PM Thanks for the info on ESL. As long as English is the only language spoken by the teacher in instruction, that's fine. I remember a course I took in German--in Germany. Only German was spoken--Frenchmen, Turks, Americans, Spanish, etc. were in the class---and it worked fine. You're right--self-esteem as the highest good--meaning that a game must be never have losers, only winners--or no winners at all-- is a real problem these days--with some parents being willing to change the rules so their little darling's self-esteem won't be bruised. This does the child no good when he or she is away from home. But I think we may be sliding into dread "thread creep". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:16 AM Staying with thread creep just a bit, I'd like to point out that ESL simply means English as a Second Language. It means only that English is not the language they were born into. As a tutor, on occasion I had 5 different cultures and languages in the same group; there was a Pole, a Czech, a Russian, an Iranian and an American Navajo. Their ages ranged from 32 to 56 A couple of these people knew three and four other languages. and almost all of them learned fast. Although I always learned a few words and phrases of the different languages just for fun, only English was taught. English was not my own first language either but a dialect of German. When I started school I still didn't speak English but I learned very quickly and painlessly. I think that most children are like that, so I'm not convinced that English classes for them are essential. After all, the English speakers have to 'take' English right along. Maybe it should be like what was done with my daughter. She read quite easily before she started school so the school assigned a tutor to her for the first three months, just to make sure that she understood the concept and utility of phonics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:55 AM There seems to be a confusion in terms, and I'm not sure it has been completely cleared up and understood. There is very little controversy about ESL (English as a Second Language), which is a class that teaches English to immigrants - most times, the teacher does not speak the native language of the immigrants, and only English is spoken in the class. There is significant controversy about bilingual education - classes taught in English AND the native language of immigrants. I'm not sure what term they use for classes taught completely in the language of immigrants. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:54 AM Screw "educating" them. They're criminals. Deport them. Let them come in legally, THEN debate the niceties of how their kids should be educated. Best education in the world would be for them to see their criminal parents chucked out of the U.S. Make the kids learn there's a legal way to do things and an illegal way. All that you do by allowing their parents to stay is teach the kids that laws don't have to be followed. What the hell's wrong with you people? Home Depot has refreshment centers for criminals hoping to hook up with contractors for day labor. A criminal's a criminal, so maybe we should allow pedophiles to have refreshment centers in daycare centers. I mean, that's where they'll find what they're looking for, right? What part of "criminal" don't you folks understand? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:42 AM Anti-I think we all understand the word criminal but you cannot punish the illegals without punishing those that hire them. I haven't seen you come up with a way to chuck them out, Anti. As soon as they are out, they will come back in. Its a revolving door. A wall will not stop them. Prison will not stop them. In the long run, human smuggling becomes more profitable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:52 AM "I'd also like an answer to my observation that taking away birthright citizenship--especially if you also refuse to educate the children of illegals in public schools-- would create a young uneducated underclass with no stake in the country--as in France. Why would that be such a good idea? How has it worked out for France? And in France, the immigrants may not want education in public schools--but the illegals here definitely do---and it's essential for assimilation." Birthright citizenship was put into place after with Civil War as a means of preventing reactioinaries in the south from denying freed slave the right to citizenship. It has now become a cheap trick for people who want to bypass the immigration laws and provide themselves a means of staying in the country illegally. A pregnant woman is smuggled across the border to have her child on the American side, then the child becomes a US Citizen and qualifies for all of the benefits. The parents of the child, of course, are perfectly happy to exploit the status of their child to promote their own ends. In southern Arizona some small hospitals have simply shut down obstretic departments because they were simply overwhelmed by illegal pregnant women. Regular citizens who require this care are now compelled to drive to the larger cities further north. There is no reason why people who come here and have children could not go through the regular application process to citizenship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:27 PM Equating 'crime' with 'illegal entry' to my mind is a stretch. One may be a law-abiding, productive person with a good work ethic- when there is work. If there is no work, one cannot feed one's family- if one is not willing to break the law and sink into moral degradation by dealing drugs or fencing a burglar operation or maybe settng up a prostitution ring. What option would you take, if you knew that just over the border there is a place that needs the work you can do? As long as you are willing and able to pay big bucks to a 'coyote' and withstand heat and exhaustion, all while feeling great fear and stress- and knowing that you might have to do it over and over. If the US helped fund a string of factories that paid well on the other of the border, how many Mexicans would opt for the US? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM "If the US helped fund a string of factories that paid well on the other of the border, how many Mexicans would opt for the US?" If that should happen American workers would probably try to breach the border the other way in order to work in the factories. If they did that, I wonder how they would be received? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 04 Jun 07 - 01:39 PM No, Ebbie, escaping your country just because it's screwed up is a coward's way out. Jobs 'just over the border,' well why the hell aren't there jobs in Mexico? They took a large percentage of ours with NAFTA, and now they want MORE from us? They need to stay home and change THEIR society, not mess with ours. And it IS criminal to sneak across a national border. Crime is crime. If I planted an axe in my neighbor's skull and then argued that it's the same as splitting wood, do you think I'd walk away from the charge? Well, maybe I would--need a better analogy. Mexico has the MOST BILLIONAIRES OF ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. If the people of Mexico are so impoverished that they have to come to the U.S., then they need to confront their problems. Mexico has three times more natural resources beneath the ground than the US does, so why are the so 'poor'? They're not. They're just ruled over by tyrants. They need to stay home and fix their government, disperse the wealth more effectively. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:44 PM "There seems to be a confusion in terms, and I'm not sure it has been completely cleared up and understood. There is very little controversy about ESL (English as a Second Language), which is a class that teaches English to immigrants" That's absolutely true. While living in California, my son was a victim of "bilingual education." He was a native speaker of English and therefore could not take advantage of all the benefits, both from state and federal programs. Lavish amounts of money was available for these programs, and administrators wanted to get what they considered to be their fair share. The result was, every other aspect of education in California suffered. They were even issuing "emergency credentials" to speakers of Spanish, so they could qualify for the money. Children were simply being taught in Spanish. The text books were published in Spanish. In the end, the taxpayers finally went to the polls and mandated a stop to the program, which put non-native speakers of English in immersion classes and brought the system out of the dark ages, at least to some extent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:56 PM Anti-Im(migrant), should and could are two different words. We in the US also should do something about what is happening in our government's name - do we? Can we? As for US-assisted factories on the other side of the border- my guess is that the US would profit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:52 PM Those factories have been there for a long time now - google "maquiadoras". Of course, if Gringos went there to work, I expect that they'd be expected to learn Spanish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM Okay, I Googled it. They pay their workers 50 cents and hour. That's not what Ebbie was talking about. The discussion was about factories that payed well. These factories are slave labor camps run by multinational corporations that exploit both Mexican and Americn workers. The Mexicans are working for peanuts and American workers in places like Michigan and Ohio can't find any work at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM "I haven't seen you come up with a way to chuck them out, Anti. As soon as they are out, they will come back in. Its a revolving door. A wall will not stop them. Prison will not stop them. In the long run, human smuggling becomes more profitable." I think all you would have to do is enforce the laws that are on the books now. If they would prosecute the employers who have illegally hired immigrants, and prosecute immigrants for identification fraud when they've committed it, that would eliminate the lure of American jobs. Then if they would simply follow the law, and prevent illegals from accessing social benefits, why would they stay here. It would cost more to live here than the country they came from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:49 PM I've used this analogy before but let me use it again: I had a poodle once that rescued any baby animal in need ranging from other dogs' puppies to baby rabbits to kittens. This one Siamese kitten arrived, weak and way too young, having barely survived a distemper bug that killed his litter mates. I turned him over to my dog. Did you know that nursing brings milk? It does. The kitten thrived and my dog was a zealous mother. Time passed, the kitten became a half-grown cat - and he still nursed. When I bred the poodle for her own litter, I didn't want her energies drained that way so I worked at breaking him of the habit. It got so that when I came in the room the cat ran, while the dog looked at me helplessly, as if asking 'What can I do?' Then I had an epiphany. I punished her. I'll tell you, she broke him of the habit in no time flat. So: If we really are serious about preventing illegal entry into this country, forget about catching and punishing them. The first time illegal labor is found in a company, shut down the company for two weeks. Second offense: Shut down all of their stores in the region or in the nation. Tell me that Walmart would tolerate their stores being shut down for a month. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:55 PM Ebbie--I agree completely. Puhishing the workers is the wrong way to go. Punish the employers, after all they're the ones who are really breaking the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:04 PM Good on ya, Rig. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:15 AM Enforcement would be easy if we just branded a circle on their foreheads and then looked up the word "target" in the appropriate dictionary. Send them home after we're sure they grasp the concept, then if they show up again, pay a bounty to any lawful citizen who bags one. And the illegals don't NEED any stinkin' identification. Haven't you folks been following current events? Remember the stink a few weeks ago when it was reported that illegals could open bank accounts with NO I.D.? YOU need 3 forms of I.D., but they don't need any. A town in Texas recently voted to make it against the law to rent to illegals, but the courts have blocked that. The federal govt is importing illegals to break down American society. This is the gangster, multinational-controlled Republican/Democrat monster I'm talking about. They're job is to destroy America, and unchecked flooding by illegals followed by blanket amnesty is one of the ways they're going to kill the country. I know my brand 'em and bag 'em approach may seem overly humane, but it's the only sure method of controlling criminal immigration now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:44 AM Why would you want to brand and bag any human being? It won't solve the problem. Thank goodness Ebbie, Riginslinger and others understand that punishing Mexican workers will not solve the problem. The only way to approach this problem is to punish the employers of illegals. Nothing else will stop the flow. Get some anger management skills, Anti-im! If we branded and bagged you, we would all be alot safer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 06 Jun 07 - 04:39 PM The 'punish the employers' argument is about to become academic. The Democraps are about to get their beloved 'hate crimes' bill passed, and then you won't be able to discriminate in employment based on national origin. Then you'll HAVE to hire the illegals. Probably even pass an incentive package to hire them too. No, my 'blast a few now so we don't have to blast them all later' idea is the only approach that makes sense. Most humane approach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:31 PM anti-Im's first post to this thread, "Illegal immigration and amnesty have nothing to do with race. It's all about waging war against America." His last post, "No, my 'blast a few now so we don't have to blast them all later' idea is the only approach that makes sense." This guy is not worth talking to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:32 PM I think he just shot himself in the foot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:32 PM and I'll take 200. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:52 PM Please note, dianavan, that most people coming into America are OTMs (Other Than Mexicans, to use Border Patrol parlance). And please note that I feel the word "target" should be looked up in the "appropriate dictionary." People from all over the world are coming into America illegally. Lots come in through Canada. They just pass right through that country like a dose of bran and very few of them speak Spanish. But the people just to the south of the US present a special problem. They want to kill us. They say so. And national suicide is a bad idea. You are a typical liberal on the immigration issue. Your positions are fed to you as the needs of the corporate elite change. You will be for whatever they tell you to be for, even up to and including national suicide. But hey, you're an American, aren't you? If so, I defend your right to advocate national suicide. I'm personally against it, though, and I should be accorded the same right to my beliefs as you are. You're about to get protection for your beloved criminals with the most heinous immigration law to ever be shat upon America, and when some tubercular axe murderer is screaming at you in Spanish that he's taking over your house, don't forget that you invited him in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:17 PM "They want to kill us. They say so." Data source, please. I'd guess that the percentage of Hispanic migrants who want to kill citizens of the US is much smaller than the percentage of active posters on Mudcat who want to murder migrants. And, BTW, Dianavan is Canadian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:34 PM Canadian. Should've known. artbrooks...didn't we discuss your support of groups based on skin color? Was that you, defending La Raza ("The Race") and Mecha and all those pigs? I think we left that where I was pointing out that if you support La Raza then you're by extension supporting the Aryan nation. And the KKK, I suppose. Like I say, you liberals don't think things through. "The Race" is bad. They're bad people. Why do you support racist groups? Anyway, you America-haters will have a happy day tomorrow when the Amnesty bill is passed. Here's the first commentary on it I've seen. Read it and weep: http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=275456 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:45 AM Anti-Im - It seems like now matter which side of the immigration debate you're on, the Senate Bill is a disaster. It doesn't seem to do anything for anybody, and it will make immigration enforcement next to impossible. It seems to me that the questions people might want to ask are 1. Who proposed it? 2. What was their purpose in proposing it? and 3. Who benefits if it passes? The last question might be the hardest to figure out, but if we had the answer it might provide a target to vent your rage at. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM My rage is vented accurately. I've thought the immigration thing through. I know why it's being done, and I know who's pushing the legislation, etc. I also know that liberals are chowderheads and will parrot any nonsense they think is politically correct. I'm disappointed in "conservatives" who are turning out to be chowderheads too...supporting the Bush regime while they do this. Anyway, artbrooks can pop the champagne cork and embrace his fucking cutthroats now. All I can do is try to position my family safely and focus on the next America-killing legislation the Democrat/Republican monster will hit us with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM Anti-human, I ignored your previous comments as being too stupid to be worthy of a response. No changes, I see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 07 Jun 07 - 12:55 PM "I've thought the immigration thing through. I know why it's being done, and I know who's pushing the legislation,..." Okay, clue me in. It doesn't look to me like this bill in the Senate benefits anybody. Of course, it looks like it's going to fail now anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:42 AM You support La Raza, artbrooks. La Raza translates as "the Race." The group bases their ideology on their skin color. A racist group. And you are fine with that. Hence, you're a racist. I don't really care, because you have that freedom as an American. The problem I DO have with you is that you want to turn my country over to foreigners. The bill was voted down in the Senate today, by the way. A true surprise. It seems our elected officials still have enough fear of the voters to follow the will of the people when it comes to the nut cutting. The Kennedy/Bush team will come back swinging, though, such is their hatred of America. As far as who's behind the filling up of America with illegals, just read the news. The May Day pride bullshit of May 1, 2006 was coordinated by Rob Allen & company. They managed Bush's 2 presidential elections and Vicente Fox's (former president of Mexico), his last campaign. They were hired to stage manage the "spontaneous" protest of the criminal illegals in America in 2006. No attempt was made to hide who was behind the spectacle--Rob Allen instructed various hispanic leaders to throw a switch on May 1, and upwards of 20 million people were suddenly waving Mexican flags on the streets of America and shouting into cameras that they were going to kill the gringos. The event backfired on them too, and that's why it wasn't repeated in 2007. Anyway, Rob Allen & company are doing the staging, but the usual players are behind the larger agenda. Vicente Fox was a Coca Cola CEO. Chase Manhattan bank owns Mexico, they installed Fox, and run the country. International conglomerate banking consortiums own Mexico, the US and Canada, and they're forging us into a single governmental unit. Or trying to. Beyond that, the usual couple hundred owners of the world are forcing the unions of the continents, and then it'll be multi-continental unions, then a world govt. That wouldn't be so objectionable if the people driving the bus weren't inbred satanists. The Windsor/Saxe-Coburgs, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the Bushes, etc. Just follow the money and it leads back to the same couple hundred people over and over again. And they use religious and racial hatred to create turmoil. After the fighting is over and the races and religions have devasted one another, the elite move in and buy up things for pennies on the dollar, consolidate, then start over again. America is their big obstacle, though. The US constitution, with its gurantees of free speech, and the right to own guns to keep govt in check, well that just doesn't fit in well with tyrannical world government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:08 AM " Lots come in through Canada. They just pass right through that country like a dose of bran and very few of them speak Spanish." That is not true. Canada does not have a problem with illegals. Its the U.S. that needs to revise their immigration procedures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 08 Jun 07 - 03:11 AM Now THAT'S a high-powered rebuttal. Canada has an ENORMOUS problem with illegals. The problem is you let anyone in, and they just pass through on their way to the U.S. Canadians are so stupid they don't even realize they're owned by the Queen of England. Crowns on everything, "dominion" stamped on everything, and you people don't realize you're the physical property of the English royal family. You're not even a country, you're a dominion. You are also muzzled by an occupational communo/fascist government that doesn't allow you to criticize anyone but Americans. You people never fought a war of independence, and now the royal family has arranged things so you go to prison if you criticize "protected groups." The one steam valve you're allowed is America, so you twits pass judgement on us constantly. But since you're the property of a bona fide nazi monarch, do you think anyone takes your judgements seriously? You are a pseudo-country, and you are the craven chattel of Elizabeth Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Canadians know this too, and deep down you people hate yourselves for never having thrown off the English yoke. Until you do, your opinions about REAL nations are crap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:55 AM Dianavan, since I support La Raza, which is news to me, and you are a craven chattel of the British Royal family, which I'm sure is news to you, why don't we just give it all up and go have a good cuppa tea and a laugh. My place or yours? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 09 Jun 07 - 01:40 AM Well, Art - Since I live in Canada, I'm afraid if I go to the States, I might get tortured or shot. You should come up here but be careful when you try to return; the U.S. might think you are an illegal trying to kill them all for the crime of being White. Whatever you do, do not speak a word of Spanish at the border. Eat your heart out, Anti-Im - http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dnd.ca/site/Governor_General/images/M_Jean_512.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dnd.ca/site/Governor_General/index_e.asp&h=258&w=200&sz=13&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=rWsJIm1ua5ihvM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=87&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMichaelle%2BJEAN%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:28 AM "Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals" Politicians are already legal. That's the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:09 AM Sorry, you can't blame this one on politicians. They respond to their constituents--and rarely lead. And if they try to lead their constituents away from bigotry and fear, they often become a profile in courage out of a job. The problem is that Anti-Im's sentiments reflect more than just one person. In the US--and not just in the US--unthinking fear has always--and still is--a big part of the political landscape. Look at the brilliant successes of Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign (summer 2002 to March 2003) -- and his 2004 campaign. And bigots (and, it seems, sheep) can--and do--vote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:27 AM "Look at the brilliant successes of Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign (summer 2002 to March 2003) -- and his 2004 campaign." Ron--Wasn't that leadership? And when the truth finally came out, why would anyone be surprised that he wasn't allowed to lead on anything else? In all reality, though, the immigration bill that was proposed in the Senate didn't seem workable to me before it got out of the gate. And given the shameless way the 1986 laws were ignored, I don't see anyway they'll ever be able to do anything about immigration until they control the people coming into the country first. Once they can demonstrate they have control of the situation, I think most people would happily go along with a guest worker program. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:23 AM Ring-- What I should have said is that politicians rarely lead away from bigotry and fear. Bush actually had decent instincts--for a change--on the immigration issue. But didn't have the guts to actually propose a bill that made sense. Even though he will never run again--for which we can be eternally grateful. And even though he supposedly is concerned about his precious "legacy"--and since he's blown Iraq so badly and as a result may not have the strength to salvage Afghanistan, foreign policy is a total loss--while immigration reform is supposed to be something he actually accomplished. Fat chance. He should have pointed out that a fence is totally worthless--and come out against "touch-back"--which as I said earlier is just a tease--any sensible person is not about to leave his home and family--on the off-chance that the brand new government program to let him back in the country will work flawlessly--when there are strong forces in the US trying to keep him out. Anybody who says they like immigrants but is in favor of "touch-back" is just not honest enough to admit he or she wants the illegal immigrants gone. And, as I said earlier, should be careful what they wish for. The $5,000 fine should have been cut down to something workable--maybe $500. The people who predict the demographic "brown peril", amazingly like the "yellow peril", and the "Irish peril" etc. should start thinking. As I also pointed out, by and large, families go down in size with education. It's been that way with every group of immigrants so far--and there's no reason to think it will be different this time. Also, Spanish is not about to displace English in the US. I've recently read that 94% of 3rd generation Mexicans in the US prefer to speak English--and many can't even speak Spanish. This is a completely solvable issue--or it was before giant intellects like Dobbs and Tancredo started whipping the fearful into a frenzy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM For starters, legalizing 30 million illegals will kill Social Security. And the media focuses people's attention on poor little Maria or Vlad or Mickey and you forget what the featured individual really is--a criminal. Why do you think they call them "illegal" immigrants? You liberals have really had your thinking on this screwed up. You aren't very bright. A good example of this is dianavan's article. Something about the Governor General of Canada: "The Governor General is the Queen's personal representative in Canada and is appointed by the Sovereign upon the advice of the Prime Minister. As Canada's 27th Governor General, the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean carries out Her Majesty's duties in Canada on a daily basis." What does that have to do with anything? So Canada is a vassal state of England. So what? The U.S. fought a war of independence, and now a group of gangsters has taken over the government. They are more beholden to corporate and banking interests than they are to their oaths to the constitution. They are trying to legalize the criminal illegals they've encouraged to come to the U.S. American citizens are trying to stop the process because it's national suicide. The media tells liberals it's all about little Maria. The liberals whimper and beg to have their throats cut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Amos Date: 09 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM LEgalizing thirty million illegal immigrants will create more than twenty-million payers into Social Security. Most illegals are in their twenties, or thirties; it's necessary to have energy, endurance, courage, and a lot of hope to jump the US' borders, especially if you do it on foot through the desert wastes east of here (San Diego) -- it is not a sport for those contemplating retirement. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:07 AM By the way, Anti-Im, you were going to tell us what kind of music you like to play, sing, or listen to. We actually don't need any politics-only posters on Mudcat. We have a few members already who represent your political perspective--and make more of an effort to make sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:42 PM Believe me, Ron, Anti-Im is well known here. Under other names. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM Ebbie-- Are you convinced Anti-Im uses other names? I'm not. And I'd be curious to know what kind of music the person likes. Sounds like Aunty Em--but somehow I don't think so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:28 PM Good example of intolerance. People on mudcat whine that "outsiders" shouldn't be allowed to post, etc., but you want to give my country away to criminal invaders. So you 1) say criminal invaders should be given all the rights of U.S. citizens while 2) think guest posters should be regulated and denied rights on mudcat. Why is that? If you assign an exclusive mindset to one scenario, why don't you to the other? Possible answers: A) you're intolerant by nature but have been monkey-trained by the governmen-owned media to give away your country, or B) you're intolerant by nature but have been monkey-trained by the government-owned media to give away your country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:21 PM Yep. That's the one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 10 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM Sorry, Anti-Im--- On every website there are rules. If you don't like the rules on Mudcat, my heart bleeds for you--and you are welcome to find a site which caters to your specific needs. Good luck finding one. It is a perfectly reasonable requirement that a poster should stick to one handle. There was even a note to that effect after your first post. Interesting that you in fact have not said anything about your musical likes, lending credence to the idea that you are in fact one of our delightful politics-only posters. It may have escaped your amazing powers of perception that this is a music website--primarily "folk"--which is a controversial topic in itself. But though we also discuss political issues, we all have at least an interest in music--and many are quite talented. So, again, what are your musical interests? After that, we can resume discussing your unique theory that "my country" is being "given away" to, what was your charming description--"criminal invaders"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 10 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM So which ones are not among the talented? You're not very bright, Davies. It's known that immigration and more breeding choices improves the stock, so what went wrong with you? You got my interest now, so tell me, who on mudcat is untalented? You WANTED to talk music. Tell me, then we'll get back to talking immigration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 10 Jun 07 - 09:33 PM Anti-Im-- Somehow you forgot to tell us what your musical interests are. I don't have to establish that I have quite catholic taste in music--that's pretty well known here. You have yet to establish that you're not one of the more mean-spirited trolls we've been privileged to host on Mudcat. You can prove your bona fides by telling us about your musical interests. And if you don't you've proven that you're a troll--and we will draw the appropriate conclusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Jun 07 - 11:31 PM "This is a completely solvable issue--or it was before giant intellects like Dobbs and Tancredo started whipping the fearful into a frenzy." Ron--Frankly I think Dobbs and Tancredo are right. You are right too when you say this is a perfectly solvable issue. All we have to do is to enforce the 1986 laws, and the whole thing will straighten itself out. Once they have things under control, than--and only then--they can work on a "guest worker" program. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 10 Jun 07 - 11:39 PM Maybe I'm just an immigrant to this site. Maybe I just came here to crap on it and take screen space away from you. What's it to you? You call your other members no-talent bums and then try to exclude me? Music talk is supposed to take place above the line. I follow the rules, see, and the society benefits here from my presence. How dare you try to exclude me after all I've paid in to the system. You have stopped breeding new neuronic activity and WE will reconquer you because we're lousy with neuronic activity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:09 AM Anti-Im--- .."the society benefits from my presence". Interesting assertion. Still waiting for any evidence of that. So far, much as it pains me to say it, I'm afraid the facts point the other way. I've told you how you can remedy the situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:33 AM Ring-- You--and Tancredo and Dobbs--want to put the genie back in the bottle. We need some evidence--as opposed to wild predictions-- from any of you that this wave of immigration is more a danger than any of the preceding ones. Specifically, why do you not think that succeeding generations of Hispanic immigrants will assimilate, just as has always been the case in the past? And if you don't like illegal immigration, the obvious solution is to make more legal immigration possible. Instead, what I hear from Tancredo, etc. is exhortations to slam the door shut. Re: Social Security: many illegals are paying into Social Security, which as you know is a program funded by workers for retirees. As long as they are illegal, they will never see any benefits from their contributions. They are lopsidedly not of an age which would benefit from the program. So I would think the illegal immigration opponents would be pushing for a program to legalize them as quickly as possible--to encourage even more to pay into the program. Also, we both agree the bill as it stands is fatally flawed. However, if the restrictionists would start thinking, they would realize that when this one officially goes down in flames, the problem will not be solved. And-- legal-- Hispanics are the fastest growing ethnic group in the US. Both the Republicans and the Democrats will be pursuing that vote. The next bill will reflect that. So far more Republicans than Democrats seem to be restrictionist. To current Hispanics--thanks to Tancredo particularly-- it looks like the Republicans at this stage are more than willing to write off their vote. Hence my earlier thread: "Tancredo: Democrats' Best Friend". I'd be interested in any rebuttal of the above--from thinking individuals like yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM "Specifically, why do you not think that succeeding generations of Hispanic immigrants will assimilate, just as has always been the case in the past?" Ron - I think they will eventually assimilate, but they will assimilate to a culture much changed, and changed to their liking. There are a number of things the "pro-immigrant" side fails to take into consideration, or if they do, they don't talk about them. 1--Many of the Latino immigrants now are coming from south of Mexico, Mexico is merely a conduit through which they travel because she shares a border with us. Looking south, there are tens of millions of them. 2--The world population is growing exponentailly, the only way to get a handle on that, is to slow down human migration. 3--There are political factions within the American Latino community who simply want to take over. They say they do and they make no bones about it. Unfortunately, they come from the ranks of the most educated among them. It's been done before--Remember the Alamo. Their effect on Socail Security might be the one good thing they do, but once they're legal, they'll drain the system faster than anyone believed possible. As far as the Hispanic vote, see item number three above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:13 AM Social Security isn't only for retirees. Dozens of other classes of people draw from it too. And illegals pay taxes from menial wages into the system. They are a drain on the system. They do not benefit this society financially, and the sudden shock of 30 million new people needing immediate social services will kill social security. I read an article by a veteran the other day talking about SS and veterans pensions. Legalize the illegal immigrants, he said, and there will no more money for veterans' benefits. Say no to the criminals who want to crap on your lawn. Send them back from whence they came. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:17 AM It's been done before--Remember the Alamo. True-except that was illegal immigrants from the US "invading" the new nation of Mexico, which gained its independence from Spain after a long revolutionary war in 1821. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:47 AM "It's been done before--Remember the Alamo. True-except that was illegal immigrants from the US "invading" the new nation of Mexico, which gained its independence from Spain after a long revolutionary war in 1821." That's exactly right, and now they want to get even. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM I think this immigration 'problem' is a red herring. As I've said before, all that has to be done is legalize those who are already in the U.S. and then clampdown on employers who hire illegals. If you think Mexican immigrants are a problem, wait until the world demands that the U.S. take care of the Iraqi refugee problem it has created. I'm sure that the same people who are complaining about Mexican immigrants are going to be whining about giving refuge to Iraqis. "Over 2 million Iraqis have fled their homeland, most since the U.S. invasion four years ago. Each month an additional 20,000 to 30,000 leave, and that departure rate has swelled to more than 50,000 per month when more borders were open. The Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees has referred 8,000 Iraqis for resettlement in the United States since the start of the war -- yet merely 701 refugees have been admitted, including only one in April and one in May." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/10/AR2007061000950.html?hpid=opinionsbox2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM No, the Texas war for Independence wasn't at all like that. The Mexicans couldn't hold the northern territories against Indian raiders (Comanche and others), so the Mexicans invited Anglo settlers into the area to help secure the area. It worked. The lands were becoming secure against raids, but then the dictator Santa Ana violated the terms of settlement. The new landowners said no to his demands, and the war was on. Mexico got its ass kicked, and that's that. Later, in the 1840's, blond haired blue eyed Emperor Maximillian of Mexico made some noises about invading the US, then Mexico sided with the Germans in WW1 and did some border raids, then they sympathized with the Nazis in WW2 but weren't in a position to bother the US. Mexicans need to get away from their strongman rule mentality, then maybe they can make the country a decent place to live. But Mexico is just a bit of the problem. The Mexican border is a major issue, but many (used to be a majority) of the people coming across that border illegally are European, Asian, Central & South American, etc. A Swiss man I work with came into the US over 10 years ago, and we're still trying to explain the concept of income tax to him. He had a 10-year free ride on paying income tax in the US, same as all other immigrants. That's in the new amnAsty bill, too--a tax moratorium. So this talk about what immigrants "pay in" to the system is a lie. The whole bill is a lie. The Senate was talking about censuring Sen. Sessions of Alabama for making the bill public (remember the article about the '20 loopholes'). The Democrat/Republican criminals are hoping to pass this IN SECRET, it's so bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:57 PM "I think this immigration 'problem' is a red herring. As I've said before, all that has to be done is legalize those who are already in the U.S. and then clampdown on employers who hire illegals." Dianavan - That's exactly what they did in 1986, but there were only 3 to 5 million illegal immigrants at the time. But after legalizing the illegals, no effort was made to crack down on new illegals or the employers. That's why we have 12 to 20 million of them now. The American public does not trust the government to live up to its commitment again this time. That's why the resistance to this immigration bill is so widespread. The government is without crdibility on this issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM "A Swiss man I work with came into the US over 10 years ago, and we're still trying to explain the concept of income tax to him." See, not all immigrants are smart. Or maybe it's the teachers who are dumb. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM "But after legalizing the illegals, no effort was made to crack down on new illegals or the employers." Thats the problem, Riginslinger. You can't legislate unless you're willing to enforce. I agree that, as its written, the new immigration bill is not the solution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:37 PM "Thats the problem, Riginslinger. You can't legislate unless you're willing to enforce." dianavan - You're absolutely right, and that's one of the big problems. People living in places like California and Arizona at the time of the 1986 amnesty plan remember exactly that. They granted amnesty to millions of illegals then, and did nothing by way of enforcement--nothing at all--that's why so many people living in those and other border states don't believe a word the government says. Then when you throw in the intense degree of credibility that George W. Bush has earned to bring to the issue, you can see where folks are with the whole thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM Ring-- Many of the "Latino" immigrants come from south of Mexico? So they walk through Mexico on the way to the US? (Since we agree, I suspect, that they are mainly poor and undereducated.) Could we have some evidence of their origins? Factions with the Hispanic community want to "take over"? There are firebrands in every movement. John Brown was a firebrand and a murderer. Does this mean abolition was wrong? Do you agree with everything Tancredo and Dobbs say? I'll bet I can find something you don't buy. Do you agree that as people get more educated and less poor, they realize the benefits of smaller families? If so--and I would assert this--the best way to get a handle on world population growth is to educate the poor and try to help them climb up the economic scale. Once the illegals are legal, they'll "drain the Social Security system faster than anyone believed possible". Exactly how will they do this, if they are by a wide margin, of working age, not retirement age? Also, as I said, why are restrictionists trying to kill this bill, when the next one on the topic is guaranteed to be less to their liking--for the reason I cited? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:35 PM "Factions within" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:44 PM Well, back to the question: Where have all you anit-ims been the last 20 years??? Wonder why you all weren't screaming during the 90's when the economy was good, muchly being fueled by "illegal" immigrants... Secondly, are you anti-ims ready for food prices to increase a 100% or are you content letting prisoners, like in Colorado, become a new slave class for Boss Hog's agri-businesses... Thirdly, it seems that most of the folks who have become so enraged on late are conservatives whyo love nuthin' more than to tote out their "family values" BS every election cycle... How about the millions of Hispanic kids that have been born and lived their entire lives on US soil??? Send mom and dad away and put 'um in, ahhhhhh, adoption homes??? Family values, my butt!!! There is no Christain or moral basis for what the conservatives are demanding here... Just a lotta hot air and hypocrisy... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:30 PM "Do you agree with everything Tancredo and Dobbs say? I'll bet I can find something you don't buy." I'm not sure about Dobbs--I think he believes that "supply side" economics is a good thing, and I do not. But as far as Tancredo is concerned, I disagree with just about everything else he stands for, but this is an overriding issue. It makes all the other political problems shrink in comparison. He proved himself to be as idiotic as all the other Christ-freaks when he raised his hand in the Republican debate to declare that he doesn't believe in evolution. But this is more important. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:31 PM Under the bill they just tried to sneak through the US Senate, criminal illegals would have been given a FIVE YEAR NO-TAX period. No taxes at all. So, exactly how would they help Social Security and such if they pay no taxes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:39 PM So you'd be okay with a program that aloowed the some 12M "illegals" a gateway to citzenship if they were to pay into the Social Security system??? Yes _____ No ______ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:44 PM Have you read that bill, Anti? I have. Please provide the Title, Subtitle and Section that grants an exception to taxes. Section 245B(a)(1)(E)(ii), by the way, requires payment of retroactive income taxes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:25 AM "Wonder why you all weren't screaming during the 90's when the economy was good, muchly being fueled by "illegal" immigrants..." Bobert - I don't know where you are, but where I am the economy is a lot better now than it was in the 90's. I was in California in the 90's and the illegal immigrants were absolutely destroying the place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:33 PM I'm in Virgina now, Rigs... Up until 2 years ago I was in Wes Ginny... In both states, IMO, things were better in the 90's than they are now... Run away inflation is more of a problem than Hispanics, who BTW, have been responsible for keeping our food prices stable whilke everything else has jumped thru the roof... Take away the immigrants and then even food prices will go outta control... Unless the US decides that slave labor (prisoners) should be forced to grow our food??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:10 PM Ring-- Your fear of illegal immigrants outweighs your rather strong distaste for the "Christian Right"? Why? You'd actually vote for a fundamentalist if he promised to stop the flow of illegals? There must be some other factor. So far I've seen no actual facts by any immigration opponents--lots of incendiary predictions but no facts -- that illegal immigration is a danger to anybody--except the immigrants themselves. And as I've said, if you're against illegal immigration, you should be favor of increasing legal immigration substantially--(since one way or another, the immigrants will come.) But I don't hear that from the folks yelling "Amnesty!" And if we cut down on illegal immigration--by expanding legal immigration--the Border Patrol, etc. could do what they should be doing--combating crime and possible terrorism--not stopping people who want to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:13 AM "You'd actually vote for a fundamentalist if he promised to stop the flow of illegals?" I'm not sure, but I'd think about it. "So far I've seen no actual facts by any immigration opponents--lots of incendiary predictions but no facts -- that illegal immigration is a danger to anybody--" Here's a fact. When the world was populated by a bunch of hunter/gatherers there were not very many people and there was very little man made degradation of the environment. By the turn of the twentieth century there were a lot more people and a lot greater man made degradation of the environment. Now there is more degradation than there was 100 years ago, and the population has risen alarmingly. If we don't do something about human population growth mankind might very well consume the planet. The one best thing that can be done to slow human popultaion growth is to put a damper on human migration. If your going to put out a fire, you have to control it first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,AG Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:10 AM "Runaway Inflation"? What Country do you live in? Obviously not the U.S. Plus tax collections going to D.C. have recently been at record levels. You might see "runaway inflation" when the tax cuts of the past 6 years are rescinded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:32 PM artbrooks -- those sections, paragraphs, etc. are from LAST year's attempt at legalizing these criminals, aren't they? http://www.public.iastate.edu/~pol_s.359/immig.html I'll check, but I think we're into 2007 now. And according to one of the people who was expected to rubber stamp this: Last year's bill required illegal aliens to prove they had paid three of their last five years of taxes to get amnesty. This year, payment of back taxes is not required for amnesty. The bill requires taxes to be paid at the time of application for a green card, but at that time, only proof of payment of Federal taxes (not state and local) is required for the years the alien worked on a Z visa, not the years the alien has already worked illegally in the United States. Though Senator McCain's S.A. 1190, adopted by voice vote, claimed to "require undocumented immigrants receiving legal status to pay owed back taxes," the amendment actually only required proof of payment of taxes for "any year during the period of employment required by subparagraph (D)(i)." Since the bill does not contain a subparagraph (D)(i), nor require any past years of employment as a prerequisite for amnesty, the amendment essentially only requires proof of payment of taxes for future work in the U.S., not payment of "back taxes." [See p. 307, and p. 293 as altered by S.A. 1190, amendment p. 2: 19-20.] http://sessions.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=275456 The nasty thing about the bill they just tried to pass in secret is that it would give the government just 24 hours to make a decision on an application. One day to dig up an individual's convoluted history and say yes or no to legality. That's not enough time for the govt to do anything, so that means all criminals will get a free pass into the U.S., and the decision is irrevocable. This legislation is meant to kill America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:45 PM Yo, GUest, AG... What world do you live in??? Health care costs have almost doubled in the last 7 years... Energy costs have doubled in the last 7 years... (Oh, those kinds of things aren't factored into the Bush administration's inflation figures???) Unless you are posting from a cooectional or mental health facility and have been in it for the last 7 years then the only reason that I can think of as to mhy you are so outta touch with the real world is that you are a crack-head??? You certainly aren't living in ***this*** real world... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:59 PM "This legislation is meant to kill America." Anti-Im - Now all we have to do is figure out who has a vested interest in killing America, and we're on our way to unravelling the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:32 PM "put a damper on human migration". Sorry, that won't do any good in this world--if there is large economic--or other-- incentive to migrate, humans will migrate. A much better, and more practical, approach, would be to try to educate the poor--since with education comes a realization of the advantages of smaller families. It has certainly been so in the waves of migration to the US---which is the issue at hand. And to try to get them climbing the economic ladder--to avoid being a drain on financial resources--since that seems to be a main objection of the restrictionists--at least the rational ones--the ones not yelling about "blatant, public treason". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:51 PM Who benefits from killing America? Well, gee, whoever benefitted from killing Argentina a while back. The IMF/World Bank. You folks look up the World Bank and...here, I'll do it: http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTHRJOBS/0,,contentMDK:20991366~menuPK:1477662~pagePK:64262408~piPK:64262191~theSitePK:1058433,00.html The World Bank Group's mission is to fight poverty and improve the living standards of people in the developing world. It is a development Bank which provides loans, policy advice, technical assistance and knowledge sharing services to low and middle income countries to reduce poverty. The Bank promotes growth to create jobs and to empower poor people to take advantage of these opportunities... That's just a quick, random search of what's on the web about the World Bank. Look at some of the members of the Bank. Thousands of organizations have crumbs of the pie, but the big pieces are owned by the old royal families and the banking consortiums headed by people like the Rockefellers, Mellons, Morgans, etc. That quote about the Bank sounds pretty positive, right? Pretty "empowering." What they don't mention is that the way the Bank provides loans to a country like Iraq, say, is to seize all their oil, then loan Iraq money collateralized by the oil, and charge 40% interest on the money. The Bank calls this "empowering" poor countries. And what's being done in Iraq is about to be done in America. The U.S. is run by corporate concerns that have nothing to do with national political ideologies or politics. Those things are just masks and diversions to keep us from understanding what's really going on. And what's going on is that the U.S. is being prepped for dismemberment. We are no longer needed as the world's offshore bank. Hell, Hershey chocolate is evacuating, moving to Mexico. The other day I read that in the past year, more companies have fled the U.S. than in the previous ten. The field is being cleared for battle. Literally. Soon, the bankers will trigger "spontaneous" race wars. In the southwest. Witness the amnesty issue right now. Rioting will break out (CIA job), and the partitioning of the country will begin. The North American Union was begun two years ago and will technically end with a unified continent, but within that will be ten regional governments. Just like there are to be three in Iraq. This stuff is planned years ahead and then implemented methodically. The southwest U.S. will be under a pseudo-Mexican command most likely, to make the Mexicans and the American liberals happy, and the rest of the country will...hell, just look it up online. The Pentagon laid this out years ago. The U.S. is about to have its dollar killed. Bush or Clinton will attempt martial law, and millions will die. Many will die because they've lost their property and can't compete on the streets with the felons the Dems/Reps just legalized, and many will die fighting the "foreign assets" that Bush/Clinton "reluctantly" calls in because our troops are tied down overseas. American liberals will see the co-mingling of troops as a good thing right up until the moment they catch a Nato round between the eyes. Personally, I think we should just arrest all feds. They've entered us into World Bank contracts without our full consent and knowledge, so we have a legal right to default on our debts. Put the traitors on trial and execute them of course, and while the U.N. tries to claim "their" property that was put up as collateral for World Bank loans (the Great Lakes, the national parks, etc.), we need to secure the borders and then start building up our manufacturing again. Nothing else will save the U.S. And all this frigging concern over minimum wages and "inflation" when the dollar is fixing to be the world's next toilet paper is just sad. Pathetic. I'll never understand how the internet generation let this happen. All the answers right there at your fingertips, and you let this happen to our country. The best thing Americans can do right now is admit that we've been had. Get your kids out of the military and talk to cops about what's going on. The multi-trillionaires that run the world are about to foment a shooting situation in America, and our local cops and our troops need to be on OUR side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:47 AM Anti-Immigrant- you've got more than just the one problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:48 AM That is Senate Bill 1348, Anti - introduced 5/9/07. And Section (D)(i), which your quote says does not exist, reads as follows: (D) EMPLOYMENT IN UNITED STATES- (i) IN GENERAL- The alien shall have been employed in the United States, in the aggregate, for-- (I) at least 3 years during the 5-year period ending on April 5, 2006; and (II) at least 6 years after the date of enactment of the Immigrant Accountability Act of 2007. I am unable to find anything in the Bill that implies that there is a 24-hour requirement to complete all checks. The only thing I can locate that relates to background checks refers to migrants in the temporary worker program, which says: Sec 218(d) Background Checks- The Secretary of Homeland Security shall not admit, and the Secretary of State shall not issue a visa to, an alien seeking H-2C nonimmigrant status unless all appropriate background checks have been completed. No time frame is stated or implied. SA 1190 requires the payment of back taxes, rather thn "requiring proof of payment of future taxes". This is all, by the way, part of what historians refer to as "primary source documentation". That is, looking at the original documents, rather than relying upon what someone else, even the honorable Senator from Alabama, says that they say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:43 AM "'put a damper on human migration'". Sorry, that won't do any good in this world--" Ron - That's the only thing that will do any good, and in Europe they're trying to do it. We have a much simpler problem to solve than they do, but we have an administration that has no vision. Having immigrants come here before they decide to limit the sizes of their families only puts the burden on us and does nothing to help the places they came from. And to have them start climbing the economic ladder only makes "super consumers" out of them once they get here. Your proposals will destroy the planet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM No, that's subsection (D)(i) in the OTHER bill, the bill with McCain's special amendment. That's what Sessions is talking about. The subsection exists, but it says: ``(D) IN GENERAL.--The alien may satisfy such requirement by establishing that-- ``(i) no such tax liability exists; http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1846416/posts So McCain refers to a subsection that says the criminal illegal can claim no taxes are due. And the criminal illegal is provided free lawyers by the US taxpayers to argue the claim. McCain should be locked up for that. It's treason against the country he swore to protect. The source document on that is the Constitution. As far as the NEW "reform" bill and the 24-hour thing: Section 601(h) Treatment of Applicants (1) IN GENERAL —An alien who files application for Z-nonimmigrant status shall, upon submission of any evidence required under paragraphs (f) and (g) and after the Secretary has conducted appropriate background checks, to include name and fingerprint checks, that have not by the end of the next business day produced information rendering the applicant ineligible (A) be granted probationary benefits in the form of employment authorization pending final adjudication of the alien's application; B) may in the Secretary's discretion receive advance permission to re-enter the United States pursuant to existing regulations governing advance parole; (C) may not be detained for immigration purposes, determined inadmissible or deportable, or removed pending final adjudication of the alien's application, unless the alient is determined to be ineligible for Z nonimmigration status; and (D) may not be considered an unauthorized alien (as defined in Section 274A(h)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1324a(h)(3))) unless employment authorization under subparagraph (A) is denied. Read this any way you want, but after that period, they're in. And if they want to fight it, the US taxpayers have to provide them with free lawyers. That's in the bill too. This bill is meant to bankrupt America's social services. You old farts living off the tit better pull free long enough to castigate the McCain-like traitors on this. When they want to kick America in the groin they vote 100-0, like on the Real I.D. Act. Call your reps and tell them you will hold them PERSONALLY responsible if they vote for any bills like this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM You may wish to go to www.senate.gov and read the actual test of the Bill, with amendments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,AG Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM Thanks, boobert. Why not try posting PRIOR to 'smoking'. You might make more sense and you could do away your usual method of naming calling that you substitute for an apparent lack of knowledge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 14 Jun 07 - 02:36 PM I have read the bill artbrooks. I'm just trying to make it easy on you. What is incorrect in my last post? Nothing. The congress of the U.S. is trying to infest my country with the worst of humanity. I'm against it, you're for it. I accept your right, as an American, to be for it. I don't accept the likes of McCain, Kennedy and Bush being for the destruction of America. They swore to protect our interests. The proposed legislation is treason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: MMario Date: 14 Jun 07 - 02:42 PM What is incorrect in your last post? You say " a subsection that says the criminal illegal can claim no taxes are due" wheras the subsection states the person must establish that no tax liability is due. A "claim" and "establishment" are very very different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM Fine. Split hairs, Mario. Refinements, minutae, etc., while the US congress is hell-bent to legalize 30 million criminals. They just got shot down, and normally it takes a while to get back to another attempt to defy the will of the people (the next session, say) but this group is waiting ONE MONTH to try their treason again. So split hairs all you want about what is is. That's what they want. A legalization of so many criminals would wreck all social services in America. Such legislation is against the interests of Americans and treason to even propose. The politicians pushing this need to be removed from office, and you can't do it through the ballot box because they OWN the new voting machines. Hell of a fix. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM Anti-Im - I agree this legislation is bad for America, but what's in it for Bush, Kennedy and McCain (and now Jon Kyl)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Amos Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:56 PM What America Owes its 'Illegals' Barbara Ehrenreich Rush Limbaugh has been expecting liberals to start "whining" about the $5000 fine undocumented immigrants will have to pay to gain citizenship under the new immigration bill, but most liberals have been too busy chortling about the immigration-induced split in the GOP to make their own case against the bill. So let a mighty whine rise over the land: Undocumented workers shouldn't be fined; they should get a hefty bonus! All right, they committed a "crime"--the international equivalent of breaking and entry. But breaking and entry is usually a prelude to a much worse crime, like robbery or rape. What have the immigrants been doing once they get into the US? Taking up time on the elliptical trainers in our health clubs? Getting ahead of us on the wait-lists for elite private nursery schools? In case you don't know what immigrants do in this country, the Latinos have a word for it--trabajo. They've been mowing the lawns, cleaning the offices, hammering the nails and picking the tomatoes, not to mention all that dish-washing, diaper-changing, meat-packing and poultry-plucking. The punitive rage directed at illegal immigrants grows out of a larger blindness to the manual labor that makes our lives possible: The touching belief, in the class occupied by Rush Limbaugh among many others, that offices clean themselves at night and salad greens spring straight from the soil onto one's plate. Native-born workers share in this invisibility, but it's far worse in the case of immigrant workers, who are often, for all practical purposes, nameless. In the recent book There's No José Here: Following the Lives of Mexican Immigrants, Gabriel Thompson cites a construction company manager who says things like, "I've got to get myself a couple of Josés for this job if we're going to have that roof patched up by Saturday." Forget the Juans, Diegos, and Eduardos - they're all interchangeable "Josés." Hence no doubt the ease with which some prominent immigrant-bashers forget their own personal reliance on immigrant labor, like Nevada's Governor Jim Gibbons, who, it turns out, once employed an undocumented nanny. And as the Boston Globe revealed late last year, Mitt Romney's lawn in suburban Boston was maintained by illegal immigrants from Guatemala. The only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. First, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in America will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to Medicare and Social Security, and here I quote the website of the San Diego ACLU: Undocumented immigrants annually pay an estimated $7 billion more than they take out into Social Security, and $1.5 billion more into Medicare.... A study by the National Academy of Sciences also found that tax payments generated by immigrants outweighed any costs associated with services used by immigrants. Second, someone is going to have to calculate what is owed to "illegals" for wages withheld by unscrupulous employers: The homeowner who tells his or her domestic worker that the wage is actually several hundred dollars a month less than she had been promised, and that the homeowner will be "holding" it for her. Or the landscaping service that stiffs its undocumented workers for their labor. Who's the "illegal" here? Third, there's the massive compensation owed to undocumented immigrants for preventable injuries on the job. In her book Suburban Sweatshops: The Fight for Immigrant Rights, Jennifer Gordon reports such gruesome cases as a Honduran who died from inhaling paint while sanding yachts in Long Island and a Guatemalan worker whose boss intentionally burned him with hot pans of oil for not washing dishes fast enough. "Death rates for Latino workers," Gordon reports, "have risen over the past decade even as workplace fatality rates for non-Latinos have fallen." When our debt to America's undocumented workers is eventually tallied, I'm confident that it will be well in excess of the $5000 fine the immigration bill proposes. There is still the issue of the original "crime." If someone breaks into my property for the purpose of trashing and looting, I would be hell-bent on restitution. But if they break in for the purpose of cleaning it--scrubbing the bathroom, mowing the lawn--then, in my way of thinking anyway, the debt goes in the other direction. " (From The Nation) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:07 PM "'If someone breaks into my property for the purpose of trashing and looting, I would be hell-bent on restitution. But if they break in for the purpose of cleaning it--scrubbing the bathroom, mowing the lawn--then, in my way of thinking anyway, the debt goes in the other direction.'" That's got to be the stupidest quote I've seen in a long time. These people trash a lot more things than they clean up. And they wouldn't move a muscle to clean anything up if they weren't getting paid for it and putting American workers out of work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 14 Jun 07 - 06:04 PM Well, Amos, there we have it yet again. There is just no use in trying to talk reason to a block of concrete. (Sigh) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Bobert Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:35 PM Well, gol danged.... The only things worser than a nigga is a spic (spit)... They steal yer sh*t... No that's niggas... Okay, they won't work... No, that's them wops... Ahhhh, forgit it... Don't matter... (spit).... Wops, niggas, jews, spics, kinky headed hoes, honkies, hillbillies, rednecks, himmies... That's the problem... Plus the Cathlics... They are the big problem... Steal from ya and won't work (spit)... And the Poloks... Steal from ya, won't work and have bad breath... And camel jockies... Okay, these folks will steal from ya (spit), won't work and got bad breath, too... And commies and socialists... All they wanta do is steal from ya 'cauase they is all Democrats and all niggas and spics (spit) is Dermocrats and Democrats will steal from ya, won't work and have bad breath... Plus they is lazy 'cause they been 'round them union folks who is all Irish and lazy, will steal from ya and have bad breath... Oh yeah, what about these limies??? These folks weren't good 'nuff to be regular people... They is all theives... That's why they is limies...They are too lazy to steal from ya but if they could if they would just trt... But they sho nuff have the bad breath... And the Piscopalians is just thieving Cathlics (spit)... Now we all know that Cathlics is stealin' theives and have bad breath so these folks will steal even from the Catholics and the spics... Now when you gotta staeal from Cathlics and spics thats bad as it gets... They all do it... So, yeah, we gotta get rid of all these spics, Cathlics, Piscopalians, Poloks, niggas, towel heads (spit) Democrats, commie scoialists, limies and everything will be American again... (spit) A True American p.s. And get rid of them indians, too... Ain't they seen the movies??? They lost so screw 'um... Send 'um back where they came from... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:12 PM I grew up with Mexican kids. I'd rather live next to five of their families than one Anti - Im. He is the best example of (in his own words), "the worst of humanity." Where did your family immigrate from Anti - Im? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:13 PM Out! Out! I'm giving the whole world 24 hours to GET OUT!!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:25 PM lol That's a great line, Don Firth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:43 AM "There is just no use in trying to talk reason to a block of concrete." I think what might be going on here is, there are some people out there who want to view this as a "civil rights" issue. That's not what it is for a number of reasons. There are political activists who want to use what they perceive to be the "Hispanic Vote" to further their own political ends, and the concept of Latino immigrants as an American underclass works to their advantage. I don't think these people have America's interest on their agenda, and the country would be better off if they were just simply ignored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:26 AM Yeah, this is no civil rights issue. It's a matter of law. Criminal law, not civil. Someone broke the law. The media plays it up as a great human struggle, the bleeding hearts buy it and want to kill their country to remedy the non-existent problem. I have the day off so I'm going to chop cactus on my property. I don't need an illegal to do it either. No illegal would WANT to do the work I'm about to do today. And you people are so eager to give my scrubland away to criminals. You have had the concept of nationalism burned out of your thinking. The concept of internationalism has replaced it. And you're so busy hopping on the train of internationalism that you don't see it's being driven by the ghosts of Mao and Stalin. You people are so easy to dupe. So let's see, this carbon thing. Wild aliens crap in the woods and destroy "delicate ecosystems," therefore, according to Prince Albert Gore's enviro trade-off system, if I chop 1/2 acre or cactus and thereby destroy the evil carbon-breathing plants, I think I'm up by a carbon credit. But then I EXHALE a bunch more carbon than I normally would, so I'm down by two credits, right? And then there's the extra emission of methane on my part during all that, so how does this work? At the end of the day how much will I owe the United Nations for working on my own property? And if an illegal alien should happen by and demand his piece of the American Dream, do I have to give him cleared land or scrubland? There's been a bobcat on the place lately so I keep a rifle with me, so if I discharge a cartridge should I report that gas emission directly to Price Albert or just a local bureaucrat? I wish Hillery were already illegally installed in the White HOuse so she could simplify this process for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:02 PM Well, I think that pretty well establishes where GUEST,Anti - Im is coming from. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:46 PM Ring- "Your proposals will destroy the planet". Uh, that's just a bit apocalyptic. Au contraire. With education comes knowledge of the value of moderation. Konsumidioten, in the felicitous German ,--(even better than "shopaholics")--are not the highly educated. In fact who do you think both provides most support to environmental groups, and staffs them? Also not Konsumidioten. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Amos Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:30 PM Funny that when the immigration laws were set up in a way that ignored the realities of the situation, no-one accused the administration of arbitrarily creating criminals. This is not a matter of moral crime or even crimes against order or social well-being. The vast majority of people who arrive here are doing so in a desperate bid for freedom, and they work their buns off to prove worthy. I offer for consideration that most of those who wave their arms about criminal illegals are themselves well-established in American society, probably well-off or middle class, and mostly white. Thing is there are crimes and there are crimes. Some folks use the letter of the law to commit deeply immoral acts. Some folks will do the ethical thing as they see it, maintaining the spirit of the highest laws in the country, and ignoring the letter of the pettier rulings crafted by the bitter-brained politician. It's an index of your personal level of humanity. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 16 Jun 07 - 12:08 AM What crap. No one is well off in American society now. The dollar is falling at 2 cents per week, the govt has said it can disappear you at any time for any reason, torture and kill you, our jobs are evaporating, our industry fleeing, and on top of that our fraudulently elected "officials" are going to violate their oaths to protect us by dumping 30 million criminals onto the social services roles. And each one of those 30 million can bring a dozen family members into the country. No one's safe in America, pal. Conservatives crossed over to vote for your liberal candidates, and you people have done nothing to hold those candidates accountable. You don't give a damn about life (you support abortions, you support the war in Iraq), so don't pretend you care about some cretin following the ant trail to the honey pot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 16 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM Hey Anti-Im-- "You support the war in Iraq". That shows how aware you are of Mudcatters' attitudes. And you were going to tell us what kind of music you like. This is your last chance. If you don't do so, that clinches it for me. You will have proven to my satisfaction that you are nothing but one of the more mentally unstable trolls it's been our pleasure to host on Mudcat. And I will treat you as such. I hope the other posters will do the same--and you will then enjoy your soliloquy. But please continue to oppose the bill--you're right, it's a bad bill as it stands--though not because of any of the imaginative fantasies you have concocted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 07 - 10:29 PM I posted a comment earlier that hasn't seemed to survive, but I'd like to respond to this. "In fact who do you think both provides most support to environmental groups, and staffs them?" One of the most influential environmental groups in America is the Sierra Club. This organization is supported by people who have enough disposable income to make contributions. It is staffed, unfortunately, by a bunch of political opportunists who want nothing more than to bring public attention upon themselves. About one third of the Sierra Club's membership openly express concern about what runaway human migration is doing to the environment. The other two thirds are really more concerned about being seen as being politically correct than the environment itself. When the real environmentalists tried to make a move to change the direction of the club's policy, the political operatives went into high gear. Morris Dees got involved. And when it comes to making a political spectacle of oneself, Morris Dees puts Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to shame. The facts of the matter, however are these: Sometime in the late 1960's the Sierra Club did mention immigration as a threat to the environment in their literature. Once the political operatives took the club over, they changed their tune, and now refuse to comment on immigration or human migration. The people controlling the club's funds want to spend that money promoting their own personal agendas. Two thirds of the membership are so chicken-shit they're afraid somebody might think ill of them, so they let the club's management do what they want, and turn a blind eye to the degragation of the environment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:58 AM Guest--get a handle. Then you may be worth talking to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Jun 07 - 10:54 PM Ron - I'm sorry, that was me. Apparently my gizmos needed to be reset, and I didn't notice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:08 PM Sorry, Ring--opposing immigration is a loser for anybody who's aware of the history of the US--environmentalist or not. Are you aware of the US record-- during the 20's, for instance? It was "Orientals" then, it's "Mexicans" now. Same tired racism--either subtle or blunt. No wonder the Sierra Club is not lining up with giant intellects like Tancredo. If you don't think the environment on the border is now being trashed by the illegal immigration going on, you need to read a bit more. The answer is not some imagined means of slamming the door, but more legal--and controlled-- immigration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Jun 07 - 08:59 AM It has nothing to do with immigration on the border. It's the entire country that suffers environmentally, though the border is a small part of it. In fact, once you turn them into super-consumers, the entire world suffers. The Sierra Club was never in alignment with Tom Tancredo, but it did take issue with immigration until it became politically advantagous for the leadership not to. It still pays lip service to population growth, and human migration. It's just that, for political reasons, the leadership is trying to cut North America out of the equation. Still, a third of the membership is trying to get that changed. There is absolutely nothing racists about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:17 PM The Senate is at it again. The media tells you this bill is dead, then you read this: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flaimmig19nbjun19,0,1293895.story?coll=sfla-news-sfla The story is such crap. A death-to-America bill peddled as friendly. The truth is that the US govt will have 24 hours to say yes or no to an immigrant, at the end of which time the immigrant gets a social security card. The aggravated felons who've already sneaked into this country WILL BE PARDONED by this action. And so will the dozen people each new citizen is allowed to bring in. THIS BILL IS BEING USED AS A MAGNET TO DRAW THE MOST DEADLY PEOPLE ON THE PLANET TO AMERICA. Serial killers from Serbia, pedophiles from Kuwait, etc., etc., etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Jun 07 - 12:11 PM Anti-Im - I'm having as much trouble with this bill as you are. What was really frustrating was watching the pundits on television shaking their heads in disgust when it was announced about the death of the bill in the first place. It never seemed to occur to any of them that this bill going away might be a good thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 20 Jun 07 - 12:55 PM Riginslinger -- the "pundits" on television are in favor of the death of America. Most of them are members of the CFR, which is sworn to a world govt. The biggest impediment to a world govt now is the example of the Bill of Rights, the first 10 Amendments to the US Constitution. It's very rare in history for the citizens of a country to have true rights, and America has to be destroyed before a world government can be formed. Can't have pockets of freedom in the tyrannical new world. It occurred to the pundits that the bill is bad, alright, but they WANT that for America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:15 PM Just to clarify what GUEST,Anti - Im is talking about, Clicky. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:22 PM And this is necessary for protection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ebbie Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:31 PM Wow. Thanks for that link, Don Firth. I had no idea of how much knowledge I was lacking. And it explains chemtrails too! "It has also been theorized that seed crystals have been sprayed from military and possibly civil aircraft in the form of so-called "chemtrails", which then enter the body of a host via the food and/or water supply or direct dermal contact." No wonder there's so much fear in the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:52 PM That must be why the illegal immigrants have taken to starting wild fires on the border, to scare away the black helicopters and the people with tin-foil helmets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:26 AM "It occurred to the pundits that the bill is bad, alright, but they WANT that for America." It looks like the senators are getting cold feet. I think this bill is going to bite the dust again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Jun 07 - 07:20 PM IT'S BACK! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:23 PM "Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits ~ make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century—that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate." "Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant sympatric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them...." There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity.' American jobs are vanishing into the Third World as corporations create a Third World in America—take note of California and other states—to date, ten million illegal aliens and growing fast. It is reminiscent of George Orwell's book "1984." In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength." Governor Lamm, walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast. http://www.vdare.com/collins/070626_lamm.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Amos Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:44 PM What an unmitigated stream of rhetorical horse-patootie. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:53 PM "Governor Lamm, walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy is deeply in trouble and worsening fast." Anti-Im - I always thought that Ross Perot did the country a great disservice when he prevented Richard Lamm from running as a third party candidate in 1996. If he'd had the nomination then, this whole discussion would have been taking place a decade earlier, and the problems wouldn't be nearly as great as they are now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianvan Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM "I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws." That's simple. Don't make laws that you can't enforce. You have to wonder what is so difficult about fining the employers of illegal immigrants. "Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness." There are many other factors ripping at the foundation of educational services and multi-lingualism is not one of them. Most educated people can speak more than one language. It is enriching to be exposed to other languages and learn to respect the language and culture of others. Thats part of becoming educated. "Barbaric cultures that practice female genital mutilation are growing as we celebrate 'diversity." Thats a cheap shot. How many incidents of genital mutilation do you know of? How about some data. Nobody I know favours this practice. Make a law to stop it if there isn't one already. Don't forget that many believe that male circumcision should also be stopped - and that's practiced world wide. btw - Female circumcision is not practiced by all Muslims and seems to be confined to a few tribes in Africa. Do you really think the practice will spread to all corners of America? Basically, you thrive on fear Anti-Im. Remember that ignorance leads to fear and fear leads to pain. Quite frankly, most people are not afraid of others. Have you ever been to see a psychiatrist about your paranoid delusions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:09 PM Sir Cheney? Sir Wolfowitz? Sir Kissinger? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: pdq Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:41 PM This helps explain why people in the Southwest are concerned about illegals from Mexico and people from the Northeast are not. (note: the open areas in Arizona and southern Utah are Indian reservations) map |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: artbrooks Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:34 PM Nope, sorry. I live in the southwest, and I know that "illegals" have nothing to do with the percent of Hispanic population. In the first place, the ancestors of many of the Hispanics in New Mexico have been here for 400 years or so. In the second place, like African-Americans, Hispanics are defined as people with any percentage of descent from a Spanish-speaking country, so our governor (you may have heard of him-running for president), whose father's family is from Boston and whose mother is from Mexico, is Hispanic. Our mayor, Marty Chavez, has plenty of non-Hispanics in his family tree, but he is one of those whose family here goes back to the 1500s. Most of the "Hispanics" here in Albuquerque don't even speak Spanish! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Ron Davies Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:46 PM Please, all you "Keep America Pure" types, do your best to defeat this bill. It's a bad bill--for exactly the opposite reason that you think it is. And, just think, the next one will be even worse for you----and better for people who want a fair shake for immigrants. Since both parties will be angling for the Hispanic vote more and more. ( Not that we can expect you to recognize that fact.) So, by all means, have at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:50 PM Sorry about this post: Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 27 Jun 07 - 08:09 PM Wrong thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Jun 07 - 12:57 PM Well, for whatever reason, at least it's defeated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianvan Date: 29 Jun 07 - 01:47 AM Hooray! It was stupid and cumbersome. Maybe now they can get down to enforcement by fining the employers. Of course Georgie boy will try to convince the Mexican-Americans with a vote, that at least he tried. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:22 AM dianavan - I think you're right. If Georgie really wants to do something about immigration before the end of his term, he would need to go into high gear with enforcement now. That would mean fining employers. If he does it, he could come back to Congress with some degree of credibility. If not, I think it's a dead issue until he's gone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,Anti - Im Date: 29 Jun 07 - 09:25 AM From an email I got after the bill was defeated: Now that the Bush-Kennedy-McCain amnesty is dead and the open borders crowd is in total disarray, we must press ahead to pass the The Secure Borders FIRST Act of 2007, sponsored by Congressmen Peter King and Lamar Smith because the current status quo is unacceptable. We need to regain control of our borders and ramp up enforcement. This bill does it by: • Requiring mandatory detention for all illegal immigrants apprehended along the border; • Expedited removal for any illegal aliens apprehended within 100 miles of the border; • Deploying at least 18,000 more border patrol agents by Dec. 31, 2008; • Funding and reaffirming the authority of state and local police to apprehend and detain illegal aliens; • Mandating the use of electronic employment eligibility verification system (formerly voluntary); • Eliminating loopholes in current law that allows illegal immigrants to receive Social Security benefits from their illegal work, if they are later legalized; • Banning the use of Matricula Consular cards, identification cards issued to illegal aliens by Mexican consulates to enable them to open bank accounts, buy homes and obtain other forms of identification; • Making English the official language of the United States; • Mandating the full implementation of US-VISIT, the visa entry-exit system intended to track visa overstayers – a critical system to protect us from terrorism; and • Punishing employers who hire illegal aliens. As you can see, this is a powerful alternative to the Bush-Kennedy-McCain amnesty. In a few days, I'll send you some of the tools necessary to start building support for the King-Smith bill as well as other great House enforcement bills offered by real immigration reformers like Elton Gallegly, Tom Tancredo, Virgil Goode, Walter Jones and others. But for now, I hope you will enjoy your Fourth of July with a renewed appreciation of the fact of what it means to be an American and that we, the people, once aroused, can reclaim our government and bring to heel those elected officials who forget that, at the end of the day, they are answerable to us. Best Regards, Edward I. Nelson, Chairman U.S. Border Control (Bush and Kennedy were actually hoping to sign this America-killing bill on July 4, Independence Day. I don't know much about this group, though I signed a couple of their petitions. Some of the things in the above seem to be for show, like a mere 18,000 border guards, but at least this group is offering a chance to push back against the globalist/corporate elite crowd. Since Bush/McCain were willing to pardon the crimes of 30 million "new Americans" and give them a 5-year tax holiday, I want a bill that does that for middle-class Americans too.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 29 Jun 07 - 08:04 PM Why spend the money on "18,000 border guards" or "detention" when all you have to do is start "Punishing employers who hire illegal aliens"? Wonder why this is the last big idea on their list? The Secure Borders FIRST Act of 2007 will just add another layer of costly bureacracy and further criminalize a segment of the population who have contributed so much to America. Of course if you want to stir up hatred and punish people for trying to provide for their families, Congressmen Peter King and Lamar Smith will do a good job of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 30 Jun 07 - 08:35 AM "Why spend the money on "18,000 border guards" or "detention" when all you have to do is start "Punishing employers who hire illegal aliens"? Wonder why this is the last big idea on their list?" dianavan - I agree with you completely. The whole thing doesn't seem to make any sense at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush & Democrats to legalize criminals From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Jul 07 - 08:09 AM By Faye Bowers, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor Thu Jul 5, 4:00 AM ET Phoenix - Arizona leads the nation in population growth. More illegal immigrants cross its border than any other in the United States. Now, in an apparent backlash to those trends, the state is leading the charge to halt illegal immigration by cracking down on employers. |
