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Flandyke Shore - meaning

16 Mar 00 - 06:08 AM (#195961)
Subject: Lyr Add: THE FLANDYKE SHORE
From: GMT

I've just worked out this lovely song, but would really like to know it's origins and meaning.

To me the lyrics seem to be a bit metaphysical in nature but I'm not sure. Does anyone out there know the origin and meaning ?

THE FLANDYKE SHORE

I went unto my love's chamber window
Where I often had been before
Just to let her know unto Flandyke Shore
Unto Flandyke Shore
Never to return to England no more
Never to return to England no more

I went unto my love's chamber door
Where I never had been before
There I saw a light springing from her clothes
Springing from her clothes
Just as the morning sun when first arose
Just as the morning sun when first arose

As I was walking on the Flandyke Shore
Her own dear father I did meet
My daughter she is dead he cried
She is dead he cried
And she's broken her heart all for the love of thee
So I hove a bullet on to fair England's shore
on to fair England's shore
Just where I thought that my own true love did lay

I found it to be q 3 chord trick. I use G C D, if anyone knows better let me know.

Cheers
Gary

16 Mar 00 - 06:58 AM (#195970)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: Malcolm Douglas

As recorded by Nic Jones, of course.  Hereis some information.

Malcolm

16 Mar 00 - 08:37 AM (#196012)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: GeorgeH

I'm fairly sure I've a tape of Nic singing this (must have been for a radio broadcast) where he introduces it as being a fragment, but too good a fragment not to sing! (A fact which he expresses in a slightly more convoluted way . .)

G.

16 Mar 00 - 10:52 AM (#196088)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: GMT

Thanks for the responce.

At least it explains some of the oddness of the lyrics; but I still think there is an other-worldly explanation for them.

Has he been killed in battle and returned in spirit to his love? What is the symbolism of the light springing from her clothes and the hoving of a bullet ? Something was intended to be construed from this but I can't get a grip on it.

Cheers Gary

16 Mar 00 - 01:22 PM (#196192)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: Malcolm Douglas

Perhaps; but as a rule I'd be wary of reading too much into these things.  Usually they were meant to be taken at face value, however strange the imagery may appear to us now.

Malcolm

17 Mar 00 - 03:39 AM (#196651)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: GMT

Ok Malcolm, I'll content myself as Nic Jones did by concluding the song is too good not to play. But I do like to know what I'm singing about (in case someone asks you understand, although what they would be doing in my bedroom I don't know ;).

Many thanks for the link.

Cheers for now. Gary

29 Jan 02 - 04:27 PM (#638150)
Subject: Tune Add: THE FLANDYKE SHORE
From: Snuffy

The song has been discussed here and here and here, but does not appear to have been harvested for the DT. Anyway, here's athe tune from Nic Jones recording.

MIDI file: FLANDYKE.MID

Timebase: 480

Tempo: 180 (333333 microsec/crotchet)
Key: G
TimeSig: 4/4 48 8
Name: THE FLANDYKE SHORE
Text: S:Nic Jones
Start
0000 1 67 127 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 127 1919 0 74 000 0001 1 74 127 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 74 090 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 72 127 1439 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 0479 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 1919 0 67 000 0481 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 79 090 0959 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 1439 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 0479 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 1919 0 74 000 0961 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 0479 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 1439 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 090 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 72 127 0959 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0959 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 1919 0 69 000 0001 1 72 127 0959 0 72 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 67 127 0959 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 66 090 0479 0 66 000 0001 1 62 127 2399 0 62 000 0481 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 127 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 76 127 0959 0 76 000 0001 1 74 090 0479 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 1919 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 1439 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 1919 0 67 000 0961 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 1439 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 0479 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 1919 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 1439 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 2399 0 67 000 1921 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 127 1919 0 74 000 0001 1 74 127 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 74 090 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 72 127 1439 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 0479 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 1919 0 67 000 0481 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 79 090 0959 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 1439 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 0479 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 1919 0 74 000 0961 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 0479 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 1439 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 090 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 72 127 0959 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0959 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 1919 0 69 000 0001 1 72 127 0959 0 72 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 67 127 0959 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 66 090 0479 0 66 000 0001 1 62 127 2399 0 62 000 0481 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 127 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 76 127 0959 0 76 000 0001 1 74 090 0479 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 1439 0 71 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 1439 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 1919 0 67 000 0961 1 79 090 0959 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 1439 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 0479 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 1439 0 71 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 1439 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 2399 0 67 000 1921 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 127 0479 0 74 000 0001 1 74 090 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 74 127 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 74 090 0479 0 74 000 0001 1 72 127 0959 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0959 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 0479 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 1919 0 67 000 0961 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 0959 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0959 0 67 000 0001 1 79 127 1439 0 79 000 0001 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 0959 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 0959 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 1919 0 74 000 0961 1 79 090 0959 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 0959 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 0959 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 74 090 0479 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 090 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 69 127 1919 0 69 000 0001 1 72 127 0959 0 72 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 67 127 0959 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 66 090 0479 0 66 000 0001 1 62 127 2399 0 62 000 0481 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 127 0479 0 74 000 0001 1 74 090 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 76 127 0959 0 76 000 0001 1 74 090 0479 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 1439 0 71 000 0001 1 69 090 0479 0 69 000 0001 1 69 127 1439 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 2399 0 67 000 0481 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 79 090 0479 0 79 000 0001 1 78 127 1439 0 78 000 0001 1 76 090 0479 0 76 000 0001 1 74 127 0239 0 74 000 0001 1 74 090 1679 0 74 000 0001 1 71 127 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 090 0959 0 74 000 0001 1 72 127 0959 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0959 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 1919 0 69 000 0001 1 72 127 0959 0 72 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 67 127 0959 0 67 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 66 090 0479 0 66 000 0001 1 62 127 2399 0 62 000 0481 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 74 127 1439 0 74 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 76 127 0959 0 76 000 0001 1 74 090 0479 0 74 000 0001 1 72 090 0479 0 72 000 0001 1 71 127 1439 0 71 000 0001 1 71 090 0479 0 71 000 0001 1 69 127 1439 0 69 000 0001 1 67 090 0479 0 67 000 0001 1 67 127 2399 0 67 000
End

ABC format:

X:1
T:Flandyke Shore
M:4/4
Q:1/4=180
X: 226
T:Flandyke Shore
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:90
S:Nic Jones
D:Penguin Eggs
K:G
GBc |
d4 |d2d2 |c3B |AG3- |GzGG |
GG g2 |f3e |d4 |z2gg |
fe3 |(d3c) |(Bc)d2|c2B2 |A4 |
c2(cB)|G2(GF)|D4- |DzBc |
d3G |e2(dc)|B4 |A3G |G4 |z2gg|
f3e |d3c |B4 |A3G |G4- |Gz3 ||
%Verse 2
zGBc |
d4 |d2d2 |c3B |(AG3- |G)zGG|
GGg2 |f3e |d4 |z2gg |
fe3 |(d3c) |(Bc)d2|c2B2 |A4 |
c2(cB)|G2(GF)|D4- |Dz(Bc)|
d3G |e2(dc)|B3B |A3G |G4 |z2g2|
f3e |d3c |B3B |A3G |G4- |Gz3 ||
%Verse 3
zGBc |
dd3 |d3d |c2B2 |(AG3- |G)z2G|G2G2|
g3g |f2e2 |d4 |z2g2 |
f2e2 |d2(dc)|(Bc)d2|A4 |
c2(cB)|G2(GF)|D4- |DzBc |
dd2G |e2(dc)|B3A |A3G |G4- |Gzgg|
f3e |d/d/-d3|Bcd2 |c2B2 |A4 |
c2cB |G2(GF)|D4- |Dz(Bc)|
d3G |e2dc |B3B |A3G |G4- |Gz3 ||


WassaiL! V

29 Jan 02 - 04:34 PM (#638155)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: MMario

Thanx snuffy

11 Feb 04 - 10:53 AM (#1114066)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: GUEST,Lance

I'm interested in that comparison to light springing from "her clothes" like the morning sun when just above the horizon. It's just conjecture, but I'm inclined to think that the singer is dazzled by the radiance of his lover as her clothes drop from her - just like, if you stare at the sun just as it rises over the horizon, the earth can seem to drop away from the sun. I don't recommend staring at the sun, though. Even just above the horizon it can be too bright for comfort, and that is precisely why it can disorientate you and give the impression that the sun is the fixed point, and the earth is dropping away - and, no, I don't need the astronomical explanation.
Do we therefore surmise that the man enjoyed his true love's favours? Not necessarily.
Was the vision a true one? Who knows?
Was this a last attempt to keep the man from going? Possibly.
Is the image wonderful? Oh yes.

11 Feb 04 - 10:56 AM (#1114071)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: GUEST,Lance

But I'm also inclined to wonder whether the true-love's "broken heart" was perhaps death in childbirth? Or maybe partly dispair and shame at being single and pregnant.
Either way, it's a dark thought for such a beautiful song. I can quite see why the Albion Band added a happy ending.

11 Feb 04 - 11:16 AM (#1114081)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: Malcolm Douglas

You found the thread without much information in it. There are two other discussions linked to at the top of this page; have a look at Help: Flandyke Shore for an earlier chapbook text which fills in the gaps of the fragment recovered from oral tradition. There is also a broadside text of the late 17th century which I'll post at some point; but in that thread, not this one.

02 Oct 13 - 04:18 AM (#3563499)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: GUEST,John Brewins

Just heard this for the first time on Penguin Eggs - where have I been all these years?
So, my first impression is simply this . He goes to his love, to tell her he is gong away ( and by the way I am sure the words are to tell her "I'm to" Flandyke shore - in other words "I am going to" - and then "unto " Flandyke Shore) and never coming back ( I assume he is going to the Low Countries to fight). She is broken hearted, Next time he goes he is actually seeing her ghost because she has killed herself out of grief for his leaving. Hence the sun-like aura.

Her father , himself stricken with grief at the death of his daughter as a result of his having left her, never to return, seeks him out to rage at him or maybe share his grief with a man who had loved her.

The pathos of the last lines is the sheer helplessness he feels at the girl's death that all he can do is make a futile gesture and shoot a bullet back to England - perhaps as a last farewell to England and to her. For some reason, the futility and throw-away nature of this last gesture I find quite moving.

02 Oct 13 - 07:05 AM (#3563552)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: Artful Codger

See the thread that Malcolm linked. There's not a lot of question about the original meaning.

The partial song sung by Nic Jones is a corruption and abbreviation of a rather longer song preserved in broadside form. Mrs Notley, the singer from which it was collected, only remembered some of the verses, and not in the original order (though we can only guess in what form the song had come to her). From sketchy comments Hammond made quoting Mrs Notley, it seems she knew more of the song and story than she was able to provide; one line she gave is a direct quotation from the broadside text. In her version, the father encounters the young lover in Flanders, while in the broadside they meet only after the young man has returned to England, so it seems the song had evolved and probably shortened somewhat in the intervening century. (Incidentally, the father was responsible for having him pressed into service, and in the meantime locked his daughter up in her room "in a tower so high.") Although Mrs Notley sang "Flandyke", Hammond corrected this to "Flanders" (as in the broadside) in his notes. Nic Jones also later rerecorded the song with "Flanders".

FWIW, I sing a partially reconstructed version of the song.

02 Oct 13 - 11:24 AM (#3563632)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: GUEST,leeneia

forty years ago, I picked up a children's book on the architecture of American homes. One of the homes was a Dutch house from the 17th Century, it was made of brick, and on one end of the house, close to the ridge of the roof, a brick was missing.

Why? It was traditional to leave that brick out so that the souls of the dying could escape to heaven through the opening.

I doubt if the Dutch were the only 17-C people who thought about souls in that way. So I suspect that the light that the soldier saw, 'springing from her clothes' as she lay dying, was her soul, leaving her body.

(Since she's dying, the family allows him to enter their house and stand at her bedroom door, "where he had never been before".)

In the third verse, the father cries, "My daughter is dead...", but it's not news to the lover. He knows it already.   
======
FWIW, I searched for 'Flandyke Shore' on the Bodleian Broadside site, and they said they didn't have it. What's the source that quoted Mrs. Notley?

02 Oct 13 - 04:07 PM (#3563704)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: Noreen

leenia, I can only repeat what the late Malcolm Douglas posted, nine years ago and several posts above:

You found the thread without much information in it. There are two other discussions linked to at the top of this page; have a look at Help: Flandyke Shore for an earlier chapbook text which fills in the gaps of the fragment recovered from oral tradition.



That thread is also currently being posted to, so best to let this one fade back into obscurity.

02 Oct 13 - 06:47 PM (#3563751)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: Artful Codger

@leeneia: The daughter is dead long before the lover returns. Possibly a ghost, more likely a hallucination caused by fond remembrance and the morning sun, but I doubt it was her soul taking leave of her body, since she would have been long buried elsewhere. Otherwise, one would have to question the sanity and sanitation of the father—and the necrophilia of the lover.

The chapbook version (ca. 1800) is titled "The Ploughman's Love to the Farmer's Daughter", which is a major reworking of a long blackletter broadside from a century before "The Unnatural Mother: or, The two Loyal Lovers Fatal Overthrow" (1693). I'm sure the Bodley has the former, and I believe I also found the latter there.

As Noreen said, Help: Flandyke Shore is a far more informative thread.

02 Oct 13 - 08:27 PM (#3563772)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: GUEST,leeneia

I don't think so. In the first verse, he creeps up to her window -they are lovers meeting in secret.

In the second, he hasn't left for Flanders yet. He's allowed to creep to her bedroom door, because she's dying. He sees her soul depart in the form of a light.

When he meets the father later, the father claims it's his fault she's dead. The father's looking for someone to blame -- a common human failing.

Life expectancy was much shorter in the days of the old ballads because people kept dying of love. We don't seem to do that much nowadays.

02 Oct 13 - 09:49 PM (#3563794)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: Sandra in Sydney

Noreen's clicky leads to 'Help: Flandyke Shore' (thread 13405) where as Artful Codger's leads to this very thread 'Flandyke Shore - meaning' (19292)

very confusing

sandra (off to visit 13405)

maybe this thread could be closed?

02 Oct 13 - 10:53 PM (#3563803)
Subject: RE: Flandyke Shore - meaning
From: Noreen

leenia, if you go to the other thread....! you will see that what we have on this thread, and what Nic Jones sang as 'Flandyke Shore' is a mixed-up fragment of a complete song which can be found in the other thread: #13405.

The complete, original song makes far more sense- hence AC's explanation to you.

Get thee hence :)



(I've asked for this thread to be closed)