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18 Nov 02 - 10:40 AM (#828959) Subject: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: wilco I attended a Jean Ritchie concert last week in new Haven, Ct (USA). When Jean sings those old songs, unaccompanied by insturments. she sings in a style that "wanders all around" the melody. What is that called, and did that arise out of the traditional style of psalm singing? Thanks!!!! Wilco in Tennessee |
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18 Nov 02 - 11:52 AM (#829013) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: GUEST,Richie Back in the early 1900's when Cecil Sharp collected ballads in the Appalachian region he noted that none of the ballads were sung with any instruments. There were a few dulcimers, banjos and fiddles around but they were not usually used in the singing. The guitar arrived in Appalachia around the time Sharp visited in 1916. It seems hard to believe now but the traditional style of ballad singing used no instruments. Doc Watson occasionally sings a song or two without playing at his concerts, singing in the "old way." Yes, the shape note singing is similar except the texts are usually prepared. -Richie |
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18 Nov 02 - 12:02 PM (#829023) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: masato sakurai Listen to songs of the Old Regular Baptists (Click here). ~Masato |
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18 Nov 02 - 12:07 PM (#829029) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: Mary in Kentucky wilco48, I had the same question for Noreen (I think it was her) who was singing Irish ballads for us one day in PalTalk. I didn't have the words to describe that style, but I had heard black students of mine sing gospel that way. Then when I heard Noreen sing the Irish ballads that way I wondered if the style had a name. PS You lucky dawg! Got to hear Jean! |
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18 Nov 02 - 12:21 PM (#829045) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: Burke This style is directly decended from the psalm singing that the earliest settlers in this country were doing. If done with a song leader quickly giving out the lines before the singing, it's generally called lining out. If the words are sung from the book or memory 'old way' is the most consistenly used label. The texts are primarily the old psalms, Watts' psalms, Wesleyan hymns, & some folk hymns. I found an article in the Google cache If Jean's church did not sing out of the following book, they probably used a similar one: The Sweet Songster, A Collection of the Most Popular and Approved Songs, Hymns, and Ballads by Edward W. Billups. "This is one of the hymn books used by the Old Regular Baptists. It was evidently first published by Billups in 1854. It contains 350 pages on which we find 285 numbered hymns, followed by five "choruses," then six more hymns that are not numbered, then "A Form of Matrimony" (a short marriage ceremony), and a first lines index." A soft cover reprint is available from Lillian M. Arrowood, P.O. Box 398, Wayne, WV 25570 and costs $4.00 per copy, plus postage of $3.00 for up to six books. |
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18 Nov 02 - 12:38 PM (#829060) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: Burke Here are more resources about this style of singing. In her concerts, Ginny Hawker also usually sings a couple of hymns in this style as well. |
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18 Nov 02 - 12:44 PM (#829066) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: Declan There is a style of singing of Irish ballads unacompanied, which may be the style Noreen was using (Mary's post above) which is called Sean Nos. The litteral translation of Sean Nos is Old Way. Is this a co-incidence or what ? |
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18 Nov 02 - 05:02 PM (#829296) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: wilco I was concerned that I had asked a "stupid question," but I didn't know how to phrase the question. Mary in Ky. observed that some American Black "church singing" might be similiar. Now that I think about it, it probably is true. But, the "old way" of jean Ritchie sounded very different. There has to be some kind of "form" or "structure" to it. I wonder waht it is? Maybe you flatten a note on specific counts or points of phrasing? Does anyone know? Several years ago, when i was reading a James Fenimore Coooper novel (I think it was the Deerslayer), a figure in the novel was a psalm singer on the American frontier, who had absolutely no other skills. I think Cooper was poking fun at the "church" with this figure. I asked someone to sing the psalms like that character, and they sounded like the "Old style" of Miss Ritchie. Once again, thanks to all!!!! |
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18 Nov 02 - 06:06 PM (#829336) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: Burke That page I linked to has 2 books that discuss the music & the way it's done. One is Benjamin Lloyd's Hymn Book: A Primitive Baptist Song Tradition At $18 for the softcover, it's worth the purchase just for the CD. The second is The Sound of the Dove: Singing in Appalachian Primitive Baptist Churches, by Bev It's more expensive, but being from a university press you'll have an easier time getting it through your local library. Part of the structure is that even if the tune comes from a composed source, the note values are stretched way out & ornamentation is added. Most of these churches were small & centered on just a couple of families. The singers really learned to sing with each other to such a degree that they might not be able to sing it very well with others, even though to our ears it is quite similar. Patterson's book in particular covers it. Note wise it's probably what often gets labelled 'mountain modal.' The intervals are not quite what you get in a 7 note diatonic scale. More likely to be pentatonic, but then 3rds might be somewhere between minor & major. Lots of sliding through notes without ever quite landing on one as well. It's hard to notate. |
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18 Nov 02 - 06:29 PM (#829351) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: TNDARLN thanks for the links, Burke- I've been meanin' to get a Lloyd's. Glad to hear about the cd, too. T |
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18 Nov 02 - 07:28 PM (#829398) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: toadfrog For a really outstanding exponent of this style, see HELENA TRIPLETT. If you don't believe me, ask Dick Greenhaus. The secular and religious styles from the Southern Appalachians are probably very close. That does not necessarily mean that the secular style "arises from" religious singing. My understanding is that Southern Applachian music is basically rooted in Scotland "Scotch-Irish." Bronson, on analysing a few hundred old tunes and comparing English, Scottish and American tunes on the basis of mode, etc. concluded that the American tunes were Scottish than the Scottish ones (presumably because more isolated from outside influence). It seems to me that the old singing style does not "wander around" the tune, but ornaments it. One notices in particular a lot of high grace notes, especially at the end of a line. Ornamentation if done just right can add a lot of power to a song, but it is extremely hard to do just right. Another advantage to a capella singing is that it lends itself to extremely subtle use of rythm, which is impossible when accompanied by a chinky-chinky guitar. Some Appalachian signers make extremely good use of these rythmic possibilities. (And some guys I know just ignore the fact that a song has a rythm at all.) Irish singers (off the top of my head, Joe Heany and Sean Mac Donnchadha) also have ways of ornamenting an a capella tune, but the kind ornamentation is quite different. And Irish a capella singing also has a kind of rythmic ornamentation that seems unique (and which gets annoying if used with non-Irish songs). To me also, West Virginia singers sound quite different from North Carolina singers, but maybe that's because my sample is so small. |
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19 Nov 02 - 01:19 PM (#830013) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: wilco As usual, great info on Mudcat. Thanks to all!!!! |
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19 Nov 02 - 07:50 PM (#830265) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: Janie The difference between the North Carolina singers and West Virginia singers may simply be the difference in the tonal quality of our speech, which would make a distinct difference in the ornamentation. We West Virginians tend to have a nasal twang to our voices, (and also eastern Kentucky.) Most of the people I know from the North Carolina mountains have a softer, southern but not real nasal twang. Hazel Dickens is an excellent example of what I grew up thinking of as the "old way" of singing. My grandfather, from eastern Kentucky (and a primative Baptist to boot!) sang in the same style with very similar ornamentation. Both are very nasal. Similar singing that I have heard here in North Carolina is tonally different because, I think, it is not as nasal. Janie |
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19 Nov 02 - 09:41 PM (#830325) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: southpawfiddle I grew up in the mountains of North Carolina with Scottish roots. It wasn't until I was in scotland listing to the gaelic words and tunes and playing scottish fiddle vs old time that I heard what that "wandering" on either side of the note was. It is really part of the gaelic/celtic pronucataion of the word to the tunes. It doesn't just have one sound. Singing the tunes without instruments they were singing the way it was played or sung and passed down with the Scottish clearances and Scots/Irish immegration to the south where so many ended up in the Mountains. Then in an Alasdair Fraser workshop in Oct at Loon Mt New Hamphshire he also talked about playing gaelic... made us hum in "gaelic" before we could play the tune. The notes had severaltwists or stepts to one side or the other. Someone called it ornamentation and he said "NO" its the celtic soul of the song. Again I could hear where the old old mountain singing be it religious or secular came from. It was a fascinating discovery after all these years of hearing it. |
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19 Nov 02 - 11:30 PM (#830387) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: toadfrog Janie: Thanks! I've never lived in the Appalachians. I have lived in Western Kentucky, and suspect that the twang is just plain Kentucky all over. (Never understood why it is called "nasal"- never heard Kentucky persons actually talk through their nose, as they do in Liverpool!) Southpawfiddle: Some of us are pretty dubious about the Lowland Scots, who are the ones that came to America, being Gaels. I suspect everybody wants to be "Gaelic" because it's fashionable. What's wrong with Anglo-Saxon? |
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20 Nov 02 - 07:37 PM (#831165) Subject: RE: Appalchian Singing / Psalm Singing. Same From: Burke See the thread Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza for a fair amount of discussion about this style of singing. See especially Jean Ritchie's discription of her mother's church. I've looked at a couple of books, and am reminded that the black churches that sing in this style often called it "Dr. Watts singing" even if Watts had nothing to do with it. I have a 1906 word book published by a Baptist group shortly after published a hymn & tune book. It describes the hymns as "old meter hymns" and "old meter songs." It was to satify the demand for "the old style pocket edition, as each member desired to have his or her own pocket hymn book, and select and sing the old meter songs of his or her choice Wilco, if you're in eastern TN, it seems like you might be able to find some churches nearby that sing this way. |