BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 10:40 AM

What appears to have happened in this case is that Polk rode this slogan to victory, but partly since he knew there was also friction with Mexico (which he was not tamping down), he was in fact willing to compromise with the UK on the Oregon border, and in fact did so after his election.

But as you can no doubt see there was no "special relationship" at this point--just rivalry.

   Nor was there smooth sailing in US-UK relations at the time of the Civil War.   If you want to actually be serious about the topic, you might want to try leaving the pig alone and looking up "Trent Affair", not to mention the "Alabama".

At the time of the "Trent Affair", no doubt there were quite a few in the UK who did not look with disfavor on the prospect that the US would split into two parts permanently--and they would be willing to aid in that endeavor.   Lincoln realized his admininstration would have to back down and did so.

If you read enough history you have a better chance to avoid rash generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 10:22 AM

Well, Kevin, it seems to me that if somebody wants to consult Wikipedia, the first thing is to be clear on what the question is. Wikipedia does not deserve the scorn certain Mucatters have lavished on it.   But you do have to to consult the footnotes on Wikipedia and decide, especially in questions of history, whether you trust the source.

However in this case the problem is much easier:   all you have to do is read carefully--not a hallmark of Mudcat posters, admittedly. I have said more than once that the crisis I have in mind in this case is best known as "54-40 or Fight".    If a poster just types this into a search engine, you get the answer clearly--even on Wikipedia.   It appears you have not done this.

It was not 1859, but rather the 1844 campaign, and had to do with the border of the Oregon Territory.   As far as as I can tell, no pig was cited as a casus belli in this case, colorful as that would have been. I also have heard about the pig factor in the friction you cited, but for my question you are barking up the wrong tree.   No pig will come down.

There were in fact, as I have noted more than once, quite a few Americans who around 1844 wanted war with the UK unless the 54-40 border were acccepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 18 Aug 13 - 03:23 AM

And does history record who got to eat the pig?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM

I don't know what John was thinking when he wrote "Canadian" rather than "English" (I don't think the pig had a passport). The farmer who owned the pig was English, as I understand it.

Local folklore has it that the English farmer and the American farmer (each considering the other an interloper) had had words several times about its rooting up potatoes in the American farmer's garden. The American would yell, "You keep your pig out of my potatoes!" in response to which the English farmer would yell back, "You keep your potatoes out of my pig!" Cutler finally warned the English farmer that the next time he saw the pig in his garden, he was going to shoot it. The following morning, there was the pig again, so he made good his threat.

I also understand that the English farmer was going to sue the American for the $100 he felt the pig was worth, but the problem was—under who's jurisdiction? The resulting argument over who got to try the case led to the thirteen year stand-off, with American troops on the south end of the island and British troops on the north end.

I also heard that the British and American troops used to party it up together while people in other parts of the world were yelling at each other.

As mentioned, once it was settled, it was determined that the only casualty in the hostilities was the gluttonous but unfortunate pig.

If you're going to have a war, I'd say that's a good way to do it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 06:49 PM

Lovely stuff. But since the pig's identified as Canadian in the second verse, maybe that last line should have been

And the only one got killed was that poor Canadian pig

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 13 - 06:24 PM

Egad!! We're into family history here, McGrath.

I was going to do a whole riff on the Pig War, then remembered that I had already written a bit on in on the "John Dwyer – Songs & Stories" thread some years back.

Subject: RE: John Dwyer - Songs&Stories
From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 04:38 PM

Outrageous! Howdy, Mark. I remember, you and I rode up to San Juan Island together (in 1985 I think it was -- thanks for the lift, by the way) for the songfest at English Camp. And well do I remember Maggie in her park ranger's uniform and Smoky Bear hat, who, I think, set the whole thing up. Marvelous afternoon.

I know this is a bit of "thread creep" which I don't want to do, particularly on this thread, but I just have to stick this in: I have a family connection with the Pig War and all that. When the British were trying to establish a presence on the San Juan Islands (they claimed everything down to the Columbia River, while the Americans were yelling "Fifty-four-forty or fight!") they asked the Hudson's Bay Company in to see if they could use the islands somehow. In 1858, my great-grandfather, Robert Firth, who worked for the Hudson's Bay Company, was appointed by Governor Douglas in Fort Victoria to head the Belle-Vue Ranch at the south end of San Juan Island with the idea of running about 6000 head of sheep on the island. By the time the thing finally got settled by Kaiser Wilhelm and the San Juans stayed on the American side, my great-grandfather had settled in, was raising a family, and decided to stay. My grandfather (another Robert Firth) and my father (also Robert Firth) were both born in Friday Harbor (my great-grandfather came originally from the Orkney Isles, as did many Hudson's Bay Company employees, and I understand that, even now, every third male in the Orkneys is named "Robert Firth"). I learned some of this from Maggie, some from another park ranger on a later trip to the San Juans, and some from a couple of books on San Juan history.

John's song is factually right on! That's what happened -- names, events, everything! I'm amazed at the accuracy, but since it was written by John, I'm not at all surprised.

Incidentally, the Captain Pickett, who was in command of American Camp on the island, resigned his commission after a year at American Camp, went home, and joined the Confederate Army. This is the same George Pickett who led the heroic but ill-fated "Pickett's Charge" at the battle of Gettysburg.

By the way, Stewart, you wouldn't happen to have the tune for this, would you?

Don Firth

And here is the song, written by the late John Dwyer:

An 1846 agreement extended the boundary between the U.S. and Canada along the 49th parallel to the west coast and from there to the "middle of the channel" through the islands southeast of Vancouver Island. A war between the U. S. and England almost erupted in 1859, triggered by the killing of a pig and disagreement as just where the "channel" went — whether the San Juan Islands were British or American.
SAN JUAN PIG — John Dwyer, 1978

Let me tell you of a story of a San Juan pig.
It wasn't worth much cause it wasn't very big,
But it rooted in a garden and it nearly caused a fray,
Between the King of England and the U. S. A.

Now the Pig it was Canadian, the settler was a Yank
What the pig did to his garden was more than just a prank,
For it dug up his potatoes and it tore down his fence,
Since it wasn't just the first time Cutler's anger was immense.

When he saw the pig a-rootin', Lyman Cutter, he got sore.
He grabbed up his musket, for the pig he tore.
The pig saw him comin' and headed for the woods,
But he stopped at the edge, and Cutler shot him good.

Then Cutler felt regretful and went down to Hudson's Bay,
And told the clerk in charge of the porker he would pay.
Griffin said, "One hundred dollars, he's a prize breeding boar."
Cutler told him "I'll pay three, and not a penny more."

Then up stepped A. G. Dallas, and said, "See here, my man,
You're already trespassing upon Canadian land.
You know it's British country from Rosario to the west,"
"Not so," said Lyman Cutler, "East of Haro is U. S."

Well, the settlers they backed Cutler with their muskets in their hands.
The British thought it wiser not to make a stand.
The stars and stripes were hoisted to celebrate the day,
And were seen by General Hamey a-sail in' on the bay.

The general came ashore and he listened to their tale.
He was a man of action and to help he did not fail.
To Fort Bellingham he sent 'ere he sailed away again,
And down came Captain Pickett with a company of men.

Then up sailed the British with war ships one, two, three,
Which made a few too many for Pickett's company.
They had to find a way to even up the score,
So he sent to Fort Steilacoom and got five hundred more.

Well they argued in the Senate, and in the House of Lords,
And they didn't make much progress but they used a lot of words.
So they asked the German Emperor the boundary to define,
And tell those treaty makers where to draw the line.

Now the Kaiser gave his answer in 1872,
And said that Haro Strait was where the line went through.
Well they called it a war, but it wasn't very big
And the only one got killed was a little British pig.

Midi file of the tune.

Here's more on the "Pig War" from HistoryLink.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

It may not have been about a pig, but that's it appears to have picked up that nickname, and a dead pig appears to have played a significant part:

"The crisis came on June 15, 1859, when Lyman Cutlar, an American, shot and killed a company pig rooting in his garden. When British authorities threatened to arrest Cutlar and evict all his countrymen from the island as trespassers, a delegation sought military protection from Brig. Gen. William S. Harney, the anti-British commander of the Department of Oregon. Harney responded by ordering Company D, 9th U.S. Infantry under Capt. George E. Pickett (of later Civil War fame) to San Juan. Pickett's 64-man unit landed on July 27 and encamped near the HBC wharf on Griffin Bay, just north of Belle Vue Sheep Farm..."

That's from this site For all I know it might be folklore rather than history. Anyway it never came to a war, any more than any of the other differences that might have blown up over the years.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has heard about it. I think I read about it in some believe-it-or-not article in which the unfortunate pig was the main interest. There really is very little awareness of historic disagreements between the USA and Britain, in either Britain or Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

It may not have been about a pig, but that's it appears to have picked up that nickname, and a dead pig appears to have played a significant part:

"The crisis came on June 15, 1859, when Lyman Cutlar, an American, shot and killed a company pig rooting in his garden. When British authorities threatened to arrest Cutlar and evict all his countrymen from the island as trespassers, a delegation sought military protection from Brig. Gen. William S. Harney, the anti-British commander of the Department of Oregon. Harney responded by ordering Company D, 9th U.S. Infantry under Capt. George E. Pickett (of later Civil War fame) to San Juan. Pickett's 64-man unit landed on July 27 and encamped near the HBC wharf on Griffin Bay, just north of Belle Vue Sheep Farm..."

That's from this site For all I know it might be folklore rather than history. Anyway it never came to a war, any more than any of the other differences that might have blown up over the years.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever met anyone who has heard about it. I think I read about it in some believe-it-or-not article in which the unfortunate pig was the main interest. There really is very little awareness of historic disagreements between the USA and Britain, in either Britain or Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 10:39 PM

I repeat, "54-40 or Fight" was not about a pig.

Also, it was not the only time aside from the Revolution and the War of 1812 that war with the UK was pushed for by US hotheads.   And there is also at least one when war with the US was advocated by UK hotheads.    You have some too, just not as many as we do.

And flippancy is not a good attitude when talking about a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM

An enormous amount of ignorance about history in the UK. In a sense more awareness of it in Ireland, but only some aspects.

Every now and then the BBC homes in on programmes about some period, but it tends to be rather comic book stuff, with little effort to knit the periods or the themes together.

But as for 1812', when I did my A levels many years ago that period was one of the ones I had to cover, but it was European History and it never got a mention. First time I heard anything about it was when Lonnie Donnegan recorded the song, and I got curious.

I don't know when I heard about the Pig War. According to Wikipedia the only casualty was one pig. That's what I mean by not significant.

A fair amount of irritation,, distrust and bad blood, but that's normal enough with any foreigners in any country. Just, it's not the whole story.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:05 PM

One more thing: if you want to be effective, it pays not to have a flippant attitude towards problems. At least in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 02:00 PM

And I'm sure there's a lot of ignorance of history in the UK. Here too, of course. And it doesn't help in making the right decisions--at the ballot box, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 01:57 PM

Don't underestimate the power of demogogues.   " 54-40 or Fight" was not over a pig. Kevin, you may not understand the appeal of militarism in the US.   After all, the largest group of our presidents trace their ancestry to the Scottish-English border in the 16th century: violence as a way of solving problems. It paid off at the ballot box.   Still does--see GWB.

And people wind up in a political campaign being pressured in directions they may not want to go--and find they cannot back away. I have read Madison did not want to start the War of 1812. But it sure happened. And the start was a surprise--to the American military--when it did.

Pacifism was an also-ran in the US--at least until the 20th century.   And though the US did not want to get involved in what was seen as European quarrels, if we felt personally threatened, as military response was always close to the surface.


But it's much too glorious a day now to spend more time on this.

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:43 PM

Hotheads calling for war doesn't add up to much. Never came to blows. I believe there some row about a pig in Oregon wasn't there?

Seriously I doubt if too many people outside the US or Canada have even heard of the War of 1812. Even if you did History of the period it gets crowded out by bigger conflicts. 1812? That's Napoleon in Russia isn't it?

Lonnie Donnegan fans have heard of the Battle of New Orleans, but I'd suspect most who haven't studied the lyrics too closely would think it was about something in the American Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 12:22 PM

Depends on your definition of serious disagreements.

There have been in fact several times when hotheads in the government or outside--on either side-- have pushed for war between the US and UK.   Not including the Revolution and War of 1812. More times when there has been considerable suspicion of the other side. And I'm somewhat surprised Kevin that you say that outside pub quizzes few in the UK would recognize the War of 1812.

The "special relationhip" is a recent phenonenon.   And even that "marriage" has not been without its squabbles.

More later--no time now.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 11:49 AM

I somehow doubt if that little episode would be too familiar to very many people it Ireland. Or indeed anywhere, including Vermnt.

The remarkable thing is that there haave been so few serious disagreements over nearly 250 years. Undercurrent of mutual dislike sometimes? True enough, though perhaps that's a bit too strong a word, but accompanied by the reverse.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Stu
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:47 AM

Thanks Ron - I might well look into this a bit further. I'm ashamed to say I'm largely ignorant of the earlier history between the two countries (apart from the big events) as in our schools here in nasty England we weren't taught much about many of the UK's past conflicts and campaigns as it didn't fit in with the concept of 'glorious empire' (at least that was how it was in the late '70s).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 15 Aug 13 - 04:31 AM

Can't someone ask the playwright , Conor McPherson?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 10:48 PM

"he claimed were..."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 10:13 PM

US-UK friction:    quite a list. Some incidents direct clashes between the governments;    often private citizens creating uncomfortable situations for the governments.

And some of them are really colorful.

Perhaps my favorite so far is the United Columbia scheme in 1796.

Ira Allen, brother of Ethan, of "Green Mountain Boys" fame, got the French to procure him cannon and 15,000 muskets which he claimed was for the Vermont militia.    The British suspected they were in fact intended for the United Irishmen.    The ship, the "Olive Branch"--perfect name for a conspiracy-- carrying them was intercepted 200 miles south of Ireland.   Allen's real intent:   smuggle the arms into Canada to promote a rebellion in support of a French invasion by sea.   Then Vermont would secede from the US and, with Canada, form a new republic called United Columbia.

Allen's chief partner:   John Graham.    "After studying divinity, Graham shifted to the study of law, which better suited his tastes for women, drink, and money." Civil War of 1812 p 78.

However, when the British caught the "Olive Branch" he felt for some reason compelled to betray Allen by revealing the actual destination for the arms.

At least one American was executed-- by firing squad--for participation in the United Columbia scheme. Both Graham and Allen survived.

The Adams administration, bent on good relations with the UK, disavowed any knowledge or part in this.

But there certainly are more incidents of friction other than the obvious ones, the Revolution and the War of 1812.   I can give you more of a list sometime soon if there is real interest--but you can easily make your own list.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 11:11 AM

Adjective
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) Able to replace or be replaced by another identical item...

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Stu
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

"It's amazing how many there have been historically. "

I'm interested. What are these falling outs then?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:51 PM

Heck, Kevin, a lot of people know about mushrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:49 PM

Maybe Americans know about stuff like that. But if there are many people anywhere else who are aware of it I'd be astonished.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:45 PM

That's right. And the mushrooms are also protean.   As opposed to the people eating them, who only think they are.    And when the people try to fly out of windows, for instance, that can be a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 08:01 PM

"Fungible" -- capable of growing mushrooms?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:20 PM

I assure you lots of Americans are aware of others. It's amazing how many there have been historically.   Of course it depends on your definition of "significant"--a very fungible term.

But we do have an armistice now.   Don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 05:22 PM

Incidentally I think the American Revolution is about the only significant falling out beween the US and British government of which many people in Europe are aware. Even the war of 1812 wouldn't win many right answers in pub quizzes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 04:34 PM

We'll take "tolerant amusement".      Probably similar to the attitude of US westerners towards Britons on dude ranches.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:29 PM

" Tolerant amusement" towards Yank tourists is about right.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:27 AM

The anti-irish prejudices of certain backward British people thankfully hasn't stopped Donegal locals being any less friendly to English visitors .

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:09 AM

And of course the subsidizing of the IRA by some Americans did not help smooth relations between the US and UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:05 AM

"American attitude toward the Irish"

And the American Revolution is only one of a long series of points of friction between the US and UK---and therefore identification with the Irish struggle against the British.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you about the long-running love-hate relationship between the US and UK--continuing even today with British resentment of US "cultural exploitation" and the resulting perceived dumbing down of UK culture, and possibly on the US late entry into the two world wars.   And on the US side with the continuing inferiority complex felt felt by some Americans, based primarily on language.   It's only recently that villains in Hollywood have been other than lopsidedly those with a posh British accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 10:50 AM

Point is, Kevin, that since about 40% of Americans feel kinship with Ireland, they are likely to treat the Irish with respect and possibly affection.   And this is noticed.    Perhaps noted with tolerant amusement, but that's better than feeling exploited, which is evidently how at least some Irish felt about "the Germans". You live neither in the US nor in Ireland. I at least have some concept of the American attitude toward the irish--romanticized or not. And long memories are involved here, as any Englishman should know.    We still have evidence of it here on Mudcat--and of course friction between Britons and Irishmen is not in fact a distant memory.

And who knows, perhaps the investment of US tech firms in Ireland plays a role here--as opposed to what is perceived--rightly or wrongly-- as manipulation of the Irish banking system, in which it seems UK banks were heavily involved. Were US banks involved also? Probably, but due to the different histories of the countries involved, the reaction may be different.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 06:02 AM

We heard her say, "No, they're not Germans, they're Americans." We took this to mean literally that we were not from Germany but now we have a better understanding of what she was talking about.


Well she was exactly saying that. You were Americans, not Germans. I don't see why you persist in seeing a hidden meaning where there isn't any.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:32 PM

Thanks for all the info and opinions. We once were in a tourist information place somewhere in Ireland and the lady there called the owner of a B&B for us. We heard her say, "No, they're not Germans, they're Americans." We took this to mean literally that we were not from Germany but now we have a better understanding of what she was talking about.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

I'd doubt if solidarity with the American Revolution is too significant in this context. Or indeed that outside of direct family connections there's too much difference in the way people in Ireland view rich Tourists from America and elsewhere, as against how they actually behave.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 12:03 PM

"justified or not"


And of course historical struggles against Britain by the Irish and the Americans play a role in the perceived kinship.

But this is all probably rather obvious.

Sometimes it's hard to answer questions without being seen as lecturing.   Wonder how Dale Carnegie got around that.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:53 AM

Ireland's economy appears to have been a real rollercoaster.

If this play takes place during the 80's, that may have been a low point.    Irish Independent 24 Oct 2004 (is this the voice of the business community?):    in the 80's Eire was a "land of high tax, high unemployment, high debt, high emigration, one of low growth, little opportunity and less hope". It's no wonder there would have been bitterness.

Then came the period of high foreign investment,   including lots from the US: Dell, Intel and Microsoft all invested heavily.   Partly due to this, employment went up.

Next was the housing bubble (and the banking crisis)--and its bursting, with those consequences, exacerbated by the worldwide recession.   Irish Times   22 Dec 2013:    "By 30 Jan 2009, Ireland's government debt had become the riskiest in the euro zone."

It did not help that it appears that the gap between the highest and lowest income households actually widened during the period of the "Celtic Tiger".

So it's understandable that the bitterness may well be back--though perhaps not directed at Americans, perhaps partly because of the US investment and jobs resulting (and perhaps since US tourists may spend more heavily than others). Also quite a few US tourists--supposedly 40% of the US population traces ancestry to Ireland--feel kinship, justfied or not, with Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:24 AM

The OP's question seems to be answered comprehensively.

It is not quite PC to name an international group of persons by the nation of the majority. (From time to time, the old question arises whether Canadians are Americans; my atlas clearly suggests so ...) However, in colloquial speech, as quoted in the play, it can be tolerated, all the more so if no specific slur is involved.

"The tourists will love it" may sound like "... will be stupid enough to waste their money for/at it" - a worldwide phenomenon, often reflecting envy of the perceived affluence, but essentially harmless.

Selling out the country is a different topic, the blame being more on the sellers than the buyers. Whenever a genuine such problem arises, ideas like Luke Kelly's are not likely to solve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:25 AM

And yes - "Germans" was really a generic term for such tourists. They were (and to to some extent still are) mainly German, Swiss, Austrians - with a sprinkle of others. I remember sitting in a sailing dinghy in one of the big locks, surrounded by hired cruisers - and not a word of English to be heard. They were often keen fishermen and would bring home freezer boxes full of pike - a favourite delicacy!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:10 AM

And, we made an error in saying that the location was in Carrick in County Donegal. It is in fact in Carrick-on-Shannon in County Leitrim. Carrick is an anglicized version on the Irish word for weir, is it not?

The Irish name of the town is Corra Droma Ruisc - and the first word does indeed mean "weir". Anglicisation as "Carrick" is a bit misleading because that word is usually derived from "carraig" - which means rock.

BTW, the switch of county from Donegal to Leitrim is very significant! Some of the earliest consistent German tourists to Ireland (as distinct from the first wave of escapees to the edge of Europe, mentioned elsewhere) were people hiring cruisers on the Shannon river. They had a distinct impact on the culture of the riverbank. When I went to live in Athlone (further downstream from Carrick) at the beginning of the '70's, the only decent delicatessen in the town was within two minutes walk of the marina. I remember being told that, in Ireland, you could only buy sauerkraut within about a mile of the river!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: gnomad
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 03:38 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=119645 has a few 1960s thoughts from Luke Kelly which might be germane. Foreign visitors/immigrants seem to have been occupying the thoughts of at least some Irish people at that time.

Luke did a fine recording on the LP "Revolution", the bitterness is almost palpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:37 PM

Grischka--

Ebenfalls.

Und danke vielmals.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:23 PM

I'm Irish. I never heard "German" used as a slang term.

A "German" is somebody from Germany.

Maybe it has some other meaning further north in the country, but I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:06 PM

Why see it as any kind of slang?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:52 PM

If the actors don't know what it means, how is the audience supposed to know? Apparently it's slang that has lost its meaning. The director should rewrite the lines without it so the play will go smoothly.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

The play is "The Weir" by Conor McPherson and was copyrighted in 1997.

And, we made an error in saying that the location was in Carrick in County Donegal. It is in fact in Carrick-on-Shannon in County Leitrim. Carrick is an anglicized version on the Irish word for weir, is it not?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:21 PM

Good piece by the Irish novelist Hugo Hamilton here, by the way>

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Slang: 'The Germans'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 02:15 PM

From the 1960s on the west of Ireland was aflock with Germans. It started, I think, from an article in a German news magazine about the safest places to live after a nuclear war, and then there was Heinrich Boll's Irisches Tagebuch (Irish Journal), which pictured our country as a land of dreamy, sweetly innocent peasants driving donkey-carts. German idealists took this hook line and sinker, and proceeded to visit Ireland annually, with many moving in.
The tourists were perhaps a little less popular than those from other countries, because of a perception that they took more than they gave - even the cycle tourists often thriftily brought their own food with them, and stayed in hostels or campsites rather than giving business to local B&Bs and shops.
So any sharp references to "the Germans" in the play are probably the Donegal people feeling a certain reserve about being treated like a human zoo in a beautiful landscape by people who may not wish to form any real exchange.
(All this has largely changed with the tourists coming back year and year and growing older and richer - in their fifties and sixties they now tend to be sensible and stay in B&Bs and buy from local shops. And those who have moved in largely went native; I remember visiting a friend in west Cork some years ago who had been waiting three months for a local German carpenter to come and mend the window.)