BS: Another question for Brits

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:18 AM

Stigweard - I think I recognise that village! Is it Alderney Edge?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 06:38 AM

and the noble was a third of a pound (80 pence or 6/8 - six shillings and 8 pence.) HuwG seems to have mixed up the noble and the groat in an earlier post.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,Guest without cookie
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:43 AM

Nobody's mentioned the groat. i think it was 4 (old) pence

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,misty eyes
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:28 AM

Not forgetting, the two billing shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Newport Boy
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:24 AM

Guinea pieces were minted from 1663 till 1817, after the sovereign had been reintroduced in 1815. It continued to be used notionally for some kinds of prices throughout the 19th century and into the 20th - for example tailors or lawyers, or for watches.

The guinea (not the coin) was in common use through the 1960s. In the late 50s/early 60s, a favourite eating place in Leicester Square was "The Guinea and the Piggy" (dreadful pun) a help-yourself buffet. You ate as much as you could for 21 shillings.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:24 AM

So whats a quarter of six 5.45 or 6.15? Half six is just a lazy way of saying half past six.

In England I've never heard anyone say half to six - it always goes 5 past, 10 past, quarter past, twenty past, twenty five past, half past (or half six for example), twenty five to, twenty to, quarter to, ten to, five to,

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Stu
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:09 AM

I lived for a while in a village in Northern England (when I was a teenager) that demonstrated the difference between the classes beautifully. Basically, four types of people lived in this affluent little patch:

- What I termed the 'old' money, people whose families had a few quid and had handed it down or been beneficiaries of. All well spoken, excellent manners and that unpracticed air of detachment that makes them unfathomable to the rest of us. The Amenities Society was made up of these people, and they were fighting a rearguard action against everyone else who were encroaching on their precious village. They ran the local Conservative Association (mostly these were 60 plus blue-rinsers al la Mrs. Thatch) and were often very nice, but vaguely disdainful of all newcomers (until a newcomer said something they disagreed with, when they would all tut loudly and look to the skies for deliverance with overt disdain).

- The second lot were working class come good. People who through their own endeavors had made a few bob and moved to the posh village down the road to take their rightful place alongside the wealthy and famous. Often found at the Cricket or Squash Club, or perhaps braying loudly in one of the villages two pubs. Their superiority complex knew no bounds and they were supremely confident in their place at the top of the food chain. Often headed up Church-affiliated organisations i.e. Youth clubs and always got in the local paper when they took turns to be lollipop man when the actual chap was on holiday.

- Thirdly, the aspirational middle classes - often upper middle or senior management who moved into the not-quite-so-big houses on estates (this was my dad). Badminton and Round Table members to a man (Ladies Circle for the wife), all had top-range saloons as part of the company package and organised discos and mediaeval banquets etc for charity (to the utter dismay of the old money types who were convinced there was no place for such things in the social calendar - I actually heard a group of them say this). Would dine in one of the expensive restaurants in the village on special occasions only.

- Finally, the people who lived in the token council estate and old-people's bungalows. These became the real winners when Thatcher started letting people buy their council houses and the lucky residents found themselves sitting on a bit of prime real estate in a sought after location. Found in the village club with snooker, doms and subsidised beer (a haven of sanity). Often mixed with the second lot as basically the only difference was the amount of bunce they had and the size of their cars.

Eventually the house prices got so inflated no young families could afford to move there and the decimation of the local social housing stock meant the village became a sort of haven for the very rich. Even as we speak wealthy premiership footballers with class pretensions (as Richard suggested, they confuse wealth with taste) are tearing down the fine old houses that the village is made up of and throwing up chav palaces of the most dubious architectural integrity - basically penis extensions in brick and stone cladding. Bling for boys with a wad.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:58 AM

'Posh' is also the Romanes (Non-Irish Travelling Folk) word for 'half'.

So someone born of one Romanes parent and one Gawjer parent is 'poshrat' - lit. half-blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:33 AM

'Posh' an abbreviation of the French phrase 'poches profondes', meaning 'deep pockets'- a reference to wealth.

Well, actually, I just made that up. But it's as good as any other theory.

The practice of payment in notional guineas continues right to the end of the old coinage. A friend tells me that for her first job in an office in the mid 60s she was paid three guineas a week.

For a while after the introduction of the pound coin, they were sometimes referred to as 'maggies'- after Thatcher- they were brassy, hard, pretty worthless, and trying to pass themselves off as a sovereign.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:46 AM

Posh = of good class.

Alas this will cause further puzzlement, for as far as I can see, in the USA and Australia class = wealth, which is not the case in the UK.

Class is the product of breeding, family background, education (public school, ie private boarding school: prep school = private boarding school for the under-13), accent above all things (think Prince Charles, Brian Sewell, although Scottish accent is allowable if you can demonstrate aristocratic genesis), and all the things like knowing which cultery to use and which ornaments are valuable antiques and which are not (similar to "taste").

If your landed estates and your antique furniture have been handed down to you over many generations you are likely to be posh.

As Clarke, the old Tory grandee, once said of Michael Heseltine "He is the sort of chap who bought all his own furniture" - ie he was a parvenu.



Which is why "Posh Spice" was a total misnomer - she was jumped up middle class (indeed perhaps lower middle class) who happened to have a moderately rich father.

Similarly the "taste" element enabled courtiers to say with absolute truth of Sarah Ferguson that she was "Vulgar, vulgar, vulgar"

You can be of good class yet poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:29 PM

'Posh' has several meanings.

In the sense of smart, classy, 'swell,' etc., the OED says there is no evidence for it standing for 'port out,.....' This usage first appeared in Wodehouse, "Tales of St. Austin's," 1903. It appeared again in 1918 in Punch.
Chowdharay-Best discussed 'port out, ...' at length in "Mariner's Mirror," 1971, and dismissed this interpretation.

Posh means mushy ice to sailors (Davis, "Polaris Expedition," Melville, etc. 1876 ).
Posh to Galsworthy meant rubbish (1924).
Posh is a coin or money of small value (1830, slang, Sessions Papers, Old Bailey).
Posh was a term for smashed fruit, etc., or the sound of such-like smashing into a hard surface (English Dial. Dict., 1790).
Posh was slang for a Dandy (Fitzgerald, 1867).

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:05 PM

No -- not just expensive -- upmarket is different to that......Brits, HELP.....you can be poor but upmarket.......it is to do with lineage (sorry!!!) rather than wealth......

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 10:20 PM

exactly what IS "posh"? Rich? Fancy? Snobbish? Elegant? All 4? None of the above?
Posh is up market
as in 'expensive'?

"Yes" is the easiest answer to your second question and "All 4" to your first, Bill.

The apocryphal Port Out Starboard Home which is the best place to be on a fat cat fancy ocean liner! apparently derives from the ships of the East India Company between Britain and India but I suspect it to be in error.

From England to Rio, starboard cabins get the pm sun.
From Rio to India, port cabins get most of the sun, whether am or pm.
And vice versa on the return run.

But I'm certain the British 'catters will dig a lot deeper than I could in such matters.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:51 PM

as in 'expensive'?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:45 PM

I have heard it is based on Port Out Starboard Home which is the best place to be on a fat cat fancy ocean liner!!!! Posh is up market -- hope that clarifies everything.....!

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:38 PM

now that we are this far, exactly what IS "posh"? Rich? Fancy? Snobbish? Elegant? All 4? None of the above?

(secretly hoping to get then at each other over regional differences in 'posh')

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:37 PM

And you should have been there when we were trying to learn long multiplication or division based on L S D....Class take 3 pounds 6 shillings and tuppence and multiply by 8!

OK ... so 8 x tuppence is 16 pennies which of course is 1/- and 4 pennies so you carry the shilling over to the shillings column and hold the four pennies.

Then take 6 shillings x 8 == 48 shillings plus the one you carried which is 49 shillings and as there are 20 shillings in a pound, move 40 shillings into the pounds column, for two pounds and hold the remaining 9 shillings.

Then three pounds x 8 = 24 pounds plus the two you carried over

EQUALS......

26 pounds nine shillings and fourpence -- and NONE of it divisible by 10. You guys don't even begin to understand math anxiety!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Leadfingers
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:32 PM

As far as my two brain cells remember , the only thing regularly in Giuneas these days is Quality Horseflesh !

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:44 PM

Good advice, Walrus; I've pleased many Canadians by such behaviour.

Sorry, Kevin; when I described prices in guineas as "posh" I was referring to their use in Oz. But you're right; this thread is about the UK situation, where only some of the Oz conventions overlap. As far as I know, no currency was minted in Oz in the early part of C19 (hence the holey dollars) and, while sovereigns may have been minted here later, I'm pretty certain guineas never were. Posh shops had prices marked in guineas and art auctions dealt in nothing else, which all ended with dismal guernsey.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:11 PM

Guinea pieces were minted from 1663 till 1817, after the sovereign had been reintroduced in 1815. It continued to be used notionally for some kinds of prices throughout the 19th century and into the 20th - for example tailors or lawyers, or for watches. Not necessarily posh transactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: The Walrus
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:11 PM

Canadians in Oz get a bit exercised if, because of their accent, locals assume them to be from south of the border.


Rule number one: If they sound Northern American (as opposed to Southern states), ask if they're Canadian - Americans won't care, but you get Brownie points from Canadians - Likewise, if they sound Antipodean, assume New Zealander, same result Aussies don't care, Kiwis are flattered.
It does make matters slightly easier. ;-)

W

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 07:10 PM

Yours must have been special, Peace. Canadians in Oz get a bit exercised if, because of their accent, locals assume them to be from south of the border.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:50 PM

I know that because my grandparents were Brits and they spoke just like everyone else in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Peace
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:47 PM

When ya wake Britons up at 3:00 AM they talk just like Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:45 PM

yeh and 'quid pro quo' is a cheap prostitute rock fan....

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:26 PM

"Quid" and "guinea" are both slang/informal names for "pound," right?

Not quite, PoppaGator; you're spot on for the quid (20 shillings in old terms) and the guinea was 21 such shillings (and used in posh places).

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:18 PM

"Quid" and "guinea" are both slang/informal names for "pound," right? Much as a "buck" means a "dollar" here in the US.

In the US, a "fin" is a $5 bill. I intended to also provide the corresponding old-time slang name for a $10, but am having a brain-fart at the moment.

A $100 bill is a "c-note" (for obvious Roman-numeral reasons, not anythning to do with music) or a "benjamin" (because it displays a portrait of Mr Franklin).

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM

Both Sovereigns and Guineas have had different face values. I found a numismatist's site while looking for something else, but have no idea where it is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:00 PM

My last OED update is 1987- and I suddenly realize that was some 20 years ago! Have to save my pennies!

The sovereign gold coin was (is?) very attractive, with George and the dragon on the reverse. It was a popular gift item here in Canada.
[Canadian banks can deal in foreign money, U. S. banks are not permitted to, except for reserve banks. Very convenient when bidding on small items from England on Ebay; sterling money orders easily obtainable. For travelers, the banks will sell one the small amount of foreign currencies that it is handy to carry along with one's plastic, and cash in any leftover currency when one returns.]

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:53 PM

Although I'm from Oz we had many of the coins and (differently coloured) the notes mentioned above, although the slang was usually different; many have fallen into disuse since we got dismal guernsey.

"Eighteen pence"- where was that quaint phrase in use, so redolent of powdered wigs? It were always one-and-six when I were a lad. The price of fish and chips at Kidd's.

PMB, I vaguely remember the schoolyard rhyme that mentioned 18 pence, even in Oz. It started

When I was young and had no sense
I took a girl behind the fence
I gave her a penny but she wouldn't have any
I gave her a trey (thr'pence) and she said she may
I gave her a zack (sixpence) and she showed me her crack
....

but I don't recall the rest.
As you can tell, it relies on Oz slang for the currency names.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:13 PM

If Quidditch isn't yet in an OED supplement no question but that it will be soon. "Muggle", has been in the OED since 2003. (See here)

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: RangerSteve
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM

Thanks. I got the info I needed and a whole lot more that I'll never remember. At least I come back to this thread and use it as a reference when I have more questions about British money.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 02:09 PM

>(The game 'quidditch,' mentioned by Megan, above, is not cited in the OED. No such?)

Don't know the wagering conventions surrounding it, but I understand it is played with broomsticks.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: The Walrus
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 01:12 PM

The name 'Tanner' for sixpence came from Victorian London

The Victorian nickname for a sixpence was a 'Thin' or, in rhyming slang a "Tanner and Skin", which became "Tanner".

As there have been mention of 'older' coinage, there used, over the years, to be four gold coins:
The Sovereign - £1 - 20 shillings - Known during the Napoleonic period, by some, as "Pitt's Cavalry" as it featured St George on the reverse and was used to hire/support foreign armies in the wars against France.
The Guinea - £1 1/- - 21 shillings
Half Guinea - 10/- - Ten shillings and six pence
Quarter Guinea -   5/3 - Five shillings and three pence - Recorded by Francis Grose as "The Whore's Curse"

Although Sovereigns are still minted, they effectively were taken out of circulation during the Great War.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:45 PM

"Thrupp'ney Bi(t)"

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM

Nobody where I come from said 'thruppence', that's just for Southern Poofters. It was, and always shall be, 'threppence'.
And a quid was a Bar, so ten bob was 'Afe a Bar.
Five bob was a dollar. Two and six was either 'Afe a dollar or two-and-a-kick. Sixpence was a Tanner.

Ah, life was so much simpler in the Good Old Days! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:44 AM

I know people who still say 20 Sovs, for £20, when I was younger there was a fad for the £1 & 10/- notes to be called . a bar, and half a bar.
Then there was the 50 Piece, which they tried to nickname a 'Wilson' after Harold Wilson PM, because it was two faced, and many sided.
Nicker,and half a nicker, the list goes on and on.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:38 AM

No one's mentioned the old Florin - which was a two bob coin, one tenth of a pound, introduced back in the 19th century as a step towards a decimal coinage. So of course in a sense it's still with us, as the Tenpenny piece - except no one ever actually calls it a Florin. The same way no one calls the pound coin a Sovereign.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:31 AM

after that many slang terms for various forms of money, I'm not sure I want to ask Brits any more questions..... *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Splott Man
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:25 AM

Wasn't a silver threepence a Joey?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,HuwG at work
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:50 AM

Coins with Germanic rather than Latin origin were the Mark, 13/4 (thirteen shillings and fourpence), two thirds of a pound, and the groat (6/8, half a Mark). Try doing that in decimal. Is there a coin that represents three point three recurring pennies?

In armed forces slang, five-pound notes are "divvies", standing for "drinks vouchers". BDV (blue drinks voucher) was also used. Fivers were sometimes also "blueys" before the insipid turquoise version with Elizabeth Fry on one side, and ten-pound notes still are "brownies".

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: The PA
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:35 AM

Cor Blimy! hasnt anyone seen 'Mary Poppins'.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:26 AM

I also have a number of seagulls, pigeons, and a couple of bridges you might like?

And, co course, a pony is twenty five quid and a monkey is five hundred quid.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:24 AM

Then there was the marine biologist who had sick squid in a tank.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: RolyH
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:14 AM

Us posh people never used quids. It was guineas where we shopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: David C. Carter
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:12 AM

A friend of mine usually called a "quid" a "oncer"

A "Fiver" was a "flem?",and all money was known as "wedge".

Over here we call euros "Zero"
Which is what it's worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:53 AM

Anyone remember the name of the comic who, when the UK and Eire were about to go decimal (can't spell the other one - cent-summat-or other) who lamented the end of

'One, one and a hay, tup, thrup and a hiddley hay-penny' ?

A sixpence, when linked to a number of shillings was a 'kick' - so a half dollar was two and a kick.

'Tosh' comes, I think, from Thieves Cant 'Tosheroon', but I only ever heard that used on 'Dixon of Dock Green'.

Yes, the poshies said 'thruppence', and us plebs and paupers
'fripemce' (the 'm' is not a typo !).

And who could ever forget a 'pee shilling tooce' ?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: fat B****rd
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:25 AM

If your glass is usually half-full it means you're prety much optimistic, if it's half empty it means you're a miserable git.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Stu
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:15 AM

Five quid makes a Lady, and ten an Ayrton.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 03:57 AM

SO in the UK what does it mean if the glass is half empty?

That's why everyone is looking at you. It's your shout next.

"Eighteen pence"- where was that quaint phrase in use, so redolent of powdered wigs? It were always one-and-six when I were a lad. The price of fish and chips at Kidd's. Never heard a "stever", and 6d was a tanner. There was a definite middle- class aura, at least round where I was, about the pronunciation of threepence as "thruppence". Crowns fell out of use before my time, except for special commemorative issues for Churchill's funeral, for example. Farthings had too, but there were lots around in the backs of drawers. Half a crown was half a dollar, which was roughly the rate of exchange during WWII. A ten bob note was a bloody good birthday present, a pound note something parents had, a fiver something shops might refuse to change.

If I give you half a crown
Will you pull your knickers down?

But which has suffered more from inflation: the penny whistle, the tenner banjo, or the grand piano?