Pronunciation of Irish language

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,kath
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:53 AM

looking for the phonetic pronunciation of:

"suaimhnigh sibhse!"

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 03:27 PM

I'm told that that unusual pronunciation of "liom" is largely confined to use in singing - it's not common in speech.

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:46 PM

Theodore:
Yes - the Waterford intonation can be quite different from others. In particular, first language Irish speakers from An Rinn (the Gaeltacht area concerned) have a number of what I would call very "diphthong-y" sounds! That pronunciation of "liom" is a case in point. Also - how do you think "An Rinn" is pronounced?!

Regards

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:14 AM

`Course that's true of what we all call the English language as well.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:12 AM

Ask 5 different speakers of the Gaeilge and you'll get 5 different pronunciations.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Theodore
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 12:22 AM

I've noticed that singers pronounce what I'll call the "h-mutation" differently in several recordings, and apparently in disregard of the spelling. So, Ciaran O Gealbhain in singing Casadh an tSúgáin pronounces féin as /hen/. In fact, in this recording, he seems to aspirate practically everything...a lovely sound, but confusing. He's from Co. Waterford. Does that impart a particular accent? In the same song, he very consistently pronounces liom as /ljaum/, a distinct "ow" sound, which is different from the Bothy band and Sean o Sé.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Declan
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:31 PM

Mick is right on the nail for one pronunciation of the word.

In a different dialect, more Munster I think, it would be more like G-yurr-ee-ah.

The language can sound differently in the local accents of the area it is spoken, so there's rarely one right answer to questions like this.

And if Dave in NZ is still waiting for an answer after all these years ádh Mór is pronounced Awe (as in John Wayne) More or Moore (depending on the dialect again).

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:04 PM

girr-ee-ah with a hard G sound, would be close.

Mick

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Cecil
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:49 PM

I was searching on the web for the pronounciation of giorria (hare), and since you mentioned it here, I've read through the page, but unfortunately I couldn't find the answer. :(

So would anyone be so kind as to help me how to pronounce giorria?

Many thanks in advance!

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Brían
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:23 PM

Here is a link with some sound samples that might help with pronounciation: Daltaí na Gaeilge

Brían

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,gaedilgeoir
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:54 AM

There are 3 main dialects of Gaedilge. They are heard in the News broadcasts of Radio na Gaeltachta. They differ a little and systematically in pronunciation. Native speakers of one easily understand the others and Scots gaelic. The northern dialect was spoken north of a line roughly joining Dundalk and Bundoran. Its sounds reflect the nearness of Scotland. It is the second-largest in everyday use.
The main population spoke a central dialect a line joining Wexford to Ennis. It remains the largest in everyday use and literature.
A southern dialect was spoken in the south.
Mixtures occurred at the borders. A phonetic type spelling is taught since 1976 and learners vary in sounds.
a as uh   accented as aw    e as e accented a 'jay' without the 'j'
i as ih   accented as ee    o as uh accented as 'oh'
u as uh   accented as oo   bh & mhas 'v' before i,e, 'w' to aou

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,dave in N.Z.
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM

Forgive me for being ignorant, but, how is "adh mor" pronounced. Phonetically would be easiest to understand if anyone can help?!!

Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,keef
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:38 AM

Just wondering. Here in "Girt By Sea" we now have lots of sheilas called Caitlin which of course we pronounce as Kate Lin . Just wonderin if this is perhaps the gaelic spelling for Cathleen, pronounced Cath Lean. Same as equal numbers of Sheilas are called Megan pronounced Mee Gan whereas the original? Welsh name is Megan pronounced Meg Ann.
Yors pedantically
Keef

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:37 AM

Or it could be that names have changed over time, as English came to be universally used and Irish declined. Thuas seal, thios seal...

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: belfast
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 05:18 AM

Mind you, it would be foolish to assume that the Irish names given in O'Neill are the "real" names of the tunes. I have spent many a night in the company of musicians and have never heard any of them (including fluent Gaelic speakers) use the Irish name of a tune. And I would strongly suspect that O'Neill himself knew these tunes by their English names and translated them into Irish for his book. There are, of course, some pieces that arre only known by their Irish name- An Coolin and Roisin Dubh, for example.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM

Well, the offer's open; if you want to learn the pronunciation of the phrases you mention, I'll record them.

Tell the missus that it's thinking like that stops the English from learning French, German, Japanese, Chinese, etc, while the rest of Europe chatters away multilingually. Can do, Pavane.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: pavane
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 02:28 PM

No, I am still here.

But Mrs Pavane says I can't even pronounce the names of the Welsh tunes properly, (I am a Londoner, after all) and thinks I should stick to English, so I won't be able to use any of this :-(>

Thank you all anyway, it has been most interesting.

(I may still try to sneak some in though.)

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 02:00 PM

What Bill says.

Incidentally, the dot over a consonant to soften it was a shorthand adopted in the 18th century by the poets who had been thrown on to farmwork by the loss of their aristocratic Gaelic patrons. After work they'd go back to the bothy where the farmhands worked, and write by rushlight, copying out by memory their own compositions and also the traditional stories, songs and poems that had been in the oral tradition, sometimes for many hundreds of years. They formed a kind of shorthand of which only the buailte - the dot over the consonant - survived.

Hey, Pavane seems to have disappeared once I made the offer. Weird! My Irish isn't *that* bad!

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 09:25 AM

More-uh Nee Ha-uh-see

some might say Moy-ruh, and the Ha, as in hat has a bit of the 'ch' in 'ach' sound

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:24 AM

I see I made an error transcribing "buidhe"! but honestly, anyone can do it - no need to know any Irish (unless you want to substitute the modern spellings). Basically, you just substitute a dot above a letter with an "h". "An Pluiméir Ceolmhar" gives a handy link on his message of 18 June.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:54 AM

JTT, Máire Ní Chathasaigh is the singer and harpist "weedrummer" refers to.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 12:58 PM

The Celtic Fake Book
Publisher: Hal Leonard Corporation
ISBN: 0-634-01727-6

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 10:11 AM

How do you spell her name, weel?

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 10:47 PM

Guest, do you have a copy of the Celtic Fake Book. If you were able to scan the index then someone here could post the details for posterity.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 08:08 PM

How do you pronounce the lady's name who sings with Chris Newman?

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:41 PM

By the way, the word for a hare in Irish, giorraí, actually means "short deer". If you've ever lain on a hill and watched hares (or deer) below, you'll see why.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM

There are three dialects of Irish: Connacht, Munster and Ulster; though there is blurring where the borders meet.

Mostly it's to do with *slight* differences in pronunciation - no greater than the difference between, say, a Northern Irish accent and the accent of someone from Cork, which seems huge to anyone Irish but almost indecipherable to Americans.

In very commonly used phrases like "How are you" there are also variations in these dialects, as there are in the English of the regions. (For instance, a Belfast person speaking English would be likely to greet a friend with "how's about ye?", whereas a Dubliner might say "how's it going?"; in Irish the northerner would say "Cad é mar atá tú?" and a Connacht person "Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú". Big deal. Once you've learned the basics of the language, all this kind of stuff is taken easily in your stride.)

Indeed, come to think of it, I was learning Mandarin a couple of years ago, and learned xie-xie for "thanks"; talking to a pal recently I was told "Dosyeh" was also commonly used. This is the kind of level of differences in Irish dialects.

Again, dialect differences in pronunciation - where someone from West Cork might say "thaw" for "tá", someone from Connemara would say it more like "taa", and someone from the North more like "tay" - hence all the people called "Shane" rather than "Shawn" in America - they're descendants of Northerners who pronounced the name Seán like that.

Anyway, the offer stands, Pavane; if you want a simple mp3 file or two on how to say the phrases you're looking for, send me your email address - email me at drnua at yahoo com - and I'll email you the files of the phrases you require.

I've now downloaded a program that allows me to record my voice as an mp3 file on my Mac, so it's easy enough. But no pressure - plenty of good advice from others here.

By the way, I assume that everyone here knows that Raidió na Gaeltachta is online (as is RTE Lyric FM if you like classical music and occasionally some traditional - they're currently playing a lot of the music referenced in Joyce's books, and have a Joyce music CD out) and RTE1 and 2. A google should lead you to any of them.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 10:20 AM

Problems in pronounciation of Irish are greatly exaggerated by people who haven't been taught or never bothered to learn how to pronounce the vowels in Irish first. Naturally it is impossible to make words sound even halfway right if the vowels are pronounced as if the reader was reading English. Any good book on learning Irish will give the correct pronouncations and the question of the various dialects is no more difficult than is listening to English dialects as spoken by a Londoner and a Yorkshire person.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: pavane
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 07:37 AM

SO I presume there is no 'Standard' Irish pronunciation, just the regional versions?

I don't really mind which, as I will be using it in Wales anyway, and only for a few words. The same kind of difference occurs in Welsh between North and South Wales (But I don't speak either version)

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 06:47 AM

Pavane - you are right to seek the help of the talented and helpful folk here, but there is a readily available tool that would likely help as well. There is a music book called "The Celtic Fake Book" with some 450 or so songs and tunes from a variety of Celtic cultures. More to the point here, is that the book includes a very helpful pronunciation guide to Irish Gaelic, designed to facilitate pronunciation of the titles. It's available here (FL)for about US$20. I wouldn't take as an authoritative manual, but it may serve your needs (which many of us share). Thanks for starting this most inetresting thread.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: Fiolar
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 05:20 AM

A word of caution folks. The pronounciation of Irish will all depend on which part of Ireland you come from. Some years ago I got a postal course from Lingophone with the idea of brushing up on my Irish. I learned Munster Irish. The course was in Leinster Irish with some words pronounced completely different to what I learned. I gave up.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 03:47 AM

Forgot to mention that the source for some of the Irish language roots is the Oxford Book of Australian Slang.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 12:16 AM

Maybe slightly off topic, but was listening yesterday on Radio National to an Irish lady who works in the English Faculty at University of Adelaide.

Her main theme was how old Irish words have become part of Australian slang and were often used initially as secret words. The most interesting assertion was that the word 'didgeridoo' was the concatenation of two Irish words meaning 'black man' and 'trumpet'. While she did give the original words I have no idea what they were.

The segment was not long but the other slang she mentioned was 'kip' - the flat piece of wood used to toss pennies in the air in the gambling game of Two Up, 'cracking on' as in attempting to seduce (but not derived from 'craic'), and notably 'sheila' which in the earliest days of colonial Australia (when men outnumbered women nine to one) was an Irish word for homosexual - pronounced 'shayla' in those times. For those that don't know 'sheila' was a condescending term for a woman and largely supplanted by American terms such as 'chick'.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:30 PM

Tell me where to email an mp3 and I'll work out how to make one.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:00 PM

She byug, she more

tour us uh vlarney

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: pavane
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:52 PM

Guest JTT - it isn't as much as a song, just a few tune titles.
When I have finally decided which tunes, (to go with these two above) I will post the English names. That idea of an MP3 sounds great, and for a few phrases it should be quite small.

So far, then, from the posts above, two slip jigs

Ag Fiadhach an Girrfhiadh : literally 'Hunting the Hare'
deanfaidh port eile : Another jig will do

Also
Si beag, si mor (is that spelling right?)

The Blarney Pilgrim - would that be Turasa bhlarnaigh? My attempt at transliteration

That would probably be enough!







Thanks to all so far for the help.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM

Oh, and if I don't answer, ask Amos to give me a shout.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:56 PM

Oh, and most songs are available in both the traditional script and what Connemara people refer to as "na damanta haitch-anna" (the damned aitches), so if you just put in a title, we can probably come up with the words in Irish and English, plus an mp3 of how the words sound.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:54 PM

Post the words of a song you want to sing and I can email you an mp3 of me saying the words, probably.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:53 PM

Ag Fiadhach an Girrfhiadh
literally 'Hunting the Hare'

egg fyach an gurrah, rather than fee-och and gurry, I think,

now 'hare' is spelled in modern Irish convention, giorria, if that is any easier!

Déanfaidh port eile - as Barry has above, jane-fee purt ella, because of the fada on the e, the future from of the verb 'do'

so literally word for word

'will do jig another' or in English ' Another Jig will do!'

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: pavane
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:57 PM

Thanks for that.
I am English, so would interpret any phonetics as based roughly on what I think they call RP (Received Pronunciation?)

Of course, for REAL phonetics, we need yet another font/typeface...
The one with the upside down e and so son.

(I think I can manage egg & curry though)

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Barry
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM

Number 437

Another jig will do

deanfaidh port eile

pronounced
jane-fee purt ella

I'm sure I'll get in trouble with someone for my attempts but as I understand it pavane you want to be able to make a reasonable attempt to introduce the tunes on stage so I'm not too far off.
Barry

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:36 PM

To help people offering pronunciation guides, it would be useful to indicate if you speak Merkin or British English, because phonetic renderings from Irish will depend on how people assume you will pronounce the "English" equivalents.

Some of the Irish titles in O'Neill's can be a bit hard to read, but here's a website
that gives a straightforward comparative table.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,barry
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:23 PM

Hunting thr Hare

Ag fiadhach an girrfhiadh

Pronounced
egg fee-och on gurry

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: pavane
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 06:54 AM

Well, yes, if you know the rules!
Number 433, page 85, Hunting the Hare looks tricky though.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:10 AM

You CAN transpose the titles to a modern font

page 17 of O'Neill's 1001:
Cluig Sean-duin (Shandon Bells)
Aeridheacht na bPiobairi (The Piper's Picnic)
Rogha Ui h-Artagain (Hartigan's Fancy)
An Suiste Bhuide (The Yellow Flail)
Triallta Chaitilin (Kitty's Rambles)

I notice O'Neill doesn't include the elongation (accent) marks
(Uí h-Artagáin, Chaitilí, etc); there are a number of ways to keyboard these - see the old thread on "The Fada in Irish Vowels" - or sometimes people write the awkward looking Ui/ h-Artaga/in, etc.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: pavane
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM

Well, I did post a couple already - see above, but in English. Need the Irish name first

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:37 PM

I learned Irish in a Christian Brothers School. Fucking Great.
If a word begins with Bh or Mh then you covert that to "W". If it begins with Th the T is lost and it begins with a "H".
example "Ca bhuil tu ag dul? "= "Where are you going? "Phonetically sounds like "Caw will two egg dull? example 2 "An mhait leat bheith ar scoil?"="Do you like being at school?" Phonetically sounds like,
"On wah lat veh er scull?
I agree with the earlier suggestion from Dathai that you submit the titles of the songs you wish to perform and I (or some other late night Mudcatter) will "Transpose them to phonetic sounds for you.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: pavane
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 12:04 PM

Bill,
It is written in old script, so I can't post it directly

I only really wanted one or two tune names for a gig.

Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Irish language
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:23 AM

correction, as I proof read too late!,

in lenition or aspiration or séimhu (shay-voo)

sh - as h in hat
th - as h in hat OR silent at end of word

in eclipsis or úrú (oo-roo)

ng - as n

I'm sure many will contradict what I have attempted, but as I said it is a rough guide!