BS: America WAS a Christian Nation

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

Either that, or Mogen David!

Stay cool!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM

will you know him because he turns water into Manischewitz?

(that's a JOKE, son..)

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

Many millions, myself included regard Jesus Christ as a giant flop as the Messiah.

I think I will continue to wait for the real one to show up.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: belter
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:41 PM

America WAS a Free Nation!

I seem to recall hearing in school that america had religious freedom. The founding fathers may have been nominally christion, or at least deist, but also were willing to discuss religion frankly. They had an open mindedness that was perhaps odatious for the time. If what they meant by "religious freedom" was actually the freedom of choosing your brand of christianity, then who cares? True religious freedom is essential to our way of life. Anything less gives the lie to our claim to being a free country.

I don't understand how calling something christian, like a country for example, makes it a good thing. If its good and it's christian then christians may be proud of it, but if its not and it's christian, then they should be assamed. Not call it christain as if that makes it good. Christianity, no dought against the teachings of jesus, has been used to justify all maner of war and atrosity for the last 2000 years. In this it is not alone among religions.

I'd like to sugjest that greater good will come from tollorence than from exclusion. I can tollorate chuck hemrick's close minded supersitious deist dogma. Opps, did I say that out loud?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:30 PM

Not reading--just differentiatin' ....

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:22 PM

"The functional clause was ". . .one nation under God . . .", not one nation under Jesus."

Christians have a hard time reading?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:18 PM

Well said, TAH! But Upthread Chuck was just reflecting something someone else wrote, and that incompletely to the point of unclarity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:56 PM

At the risk of spoiling a perfectly good rant from Brother Chuck Hemmick, the Fathers of Our Nation were mostly Deists, NOT Christians...might want to research this, so as to be better informed.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 02:35 PM

I hadn't noticed that the first message was a copy-paste. I should have known. It's less than our one-screen limit, so I won't hassle with it. This Google Search shows that the very same article appears in at least 285 other places on the Internet.

Our copy-paste limits apply only to non-music items. If it's about music, please post the entire text, if at all possible. For non-music articles that you want to copy and post, our limit is one screen of text, which is a lot of information. If the article is longer, post excerpts or a summary in your own words, plus a link to the source of the text. Whenever you post information from other sources, please tell us where you got it from - this is especially important when you are posting lyrics, because it helps answer a lot of questions. Generally, we ask people NOT to post lyrics that are copied directly from the Digital Tradition (or Yet Another Digital Tradition), or from messages already posted in the Forum - it confuses our song harvesters.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:56 PM

The original essay from which the incoherent excerpty that started this thread was taken was apprantly from someone devout Christian named John F Morrison. It is rabble-rousing SOuthern-Baptist flavored intense ideology. I consider it is not in keeping witht he founding spirit of this nation. That is my own opinion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,Duane D. at work
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:40 PM

There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Some folks here seem to think that reference to God automatically means Christian. There are many religions that reference God and followers who believe in God and are not Christians. Afterall, this thread does say BS, does it not?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:27 PM

The belief systems practiced in the Americas prior to colonization were/are "authochthonous," meaning they rose and evolved with people in specific landscapes (the online dictionary says "originates where they were found") and they respond to the particular natural and cultural environment that exists in that place. They include ontological material such as origin stories; strict practices to do with living in the world and who does what; and a structured eschatological (death and afterlife) practices and beliefs.

Christianity was at one time autochthonous--when it was a small belief system in the deserts of an area on the southeastern end of the Mediterranean. Now as an organized religion (i.e., "institution to express belief in a divine power") it acts like an institution or a corporation, expanding it's power base and always working on the promotion end of things. (Interesting also, that the other two industrial religions happened to arise in the same small area? They certainly learned to share the prostelatizing and recruitment behaviors.)

What christians today are practicing is something that has been translated, rewritten, and retranslated by powerful men for powerful rulers. It is in no way shape or form tied to the land or a sense of place--it has merged with science and business but is still disguised as simply a religion. It has migrated and colonized many parts of the world and has been the cause of many wars and land grabs.

Beardedbruce says Anyone here is free to try to convert others to his/her religious or political belief- Just remember that that means that the person trying to convert others is fair game to the efforts and comments of others. Only fair... but a lot of people practicing other religions in the world don't feel that way--they live and let live. The big three industrial religions don't--christianity, judaism, and the moslem religions. But they're based on an overt power base and of course want to convert new recruits--they're part of a vast and legal pyramid scheme. Marx didn't call religion "the opiate for the masses" for nothing--billions of people are to some degree controlled by their religions. The religions leaders at the top have a lot of cash to burn when their flock coughs it up every week in church, synagog or mosque.

That was a funny line, Bruce, about Jesus overreacting. Just thought I'd mention it since I haven't given you much slack in the past. And I'm not likely to on this, either, with all of the chapter and verse being ladled into this thread, even with the diversion of humor.

("Religion comes from the oppressed, but benefits those at the top," and other interesting quotes, appear here in a study-aid online from the UK.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 07:48 AM

The love of money is the root of all evil. Just ask Cheney, Halliburton, Harkin and Enron.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:34 AM

Welcome back, Chuck. I can't say I agree with your political or religious views, but I've certainly enjoyed your music that I've heard.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,The Allmighty Dollar
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:14 PM

Oh, sure, it WAS a Christian nation. Once. Now I am in command. I rule. Believe it. You all live to serve Me and worship at My $Feet. You will all die and pass away as the grass that withers and the day that ends. I will rule on. I am the Allmighty Dollar, and everything you do is done of, by, and for Me. I am the Unreal become Real, the Fiction made Flesh. I am the power of life and death, the reason behind all productive and destructive activities, the arbiter of all trading, the creator of weapons of mass destruction, the alpha and the omega. I am the Corporate Seal, Omnipotent, Deathless, and Eternal. Bow before me and tremble, ye CEOs, lawyers, bondsmen, and slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM

I think we have been had. What Guest Chuck Hemerick posted looks like Spam to me. Look at what I have italicized. It seems he has cut and pasted someone else's editorial and turned it into a chain letter. It doesn't even appear that he included the stuff that was erased form the textbooks.

We seem to be spending a lot of energy and animosity on a hit and run post.

Today, we are asking God to bless America. But, how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him? Prior to September 11, He was not welcome in America. Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots.   Because the Muslim faith is so sensitive to the fact that the United States was founded on Christian principles and the politically correct left are doing everything that they can to force Christians underground, I suggest that the following bears repeating.

Since the middle 1960's, the United States has embraced almost every concept imaginable that has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Apostles. The U.S. has embraced the occult, middle eastern religions, far eastern religions and have made up some of our own. We have decided that it is appropriate to kill our unborn children and that the family structure is whatever each individual decides that it should be.

We have forgotten the words of the U.S. Constitution and have chosen to make up our own rules in spite of the vision of our founding fathers. I think that it is appropriate every now and then to revisit our founders and appreciate the sacrifices that they made for us. Then, we need to ask ourselves, what are we willing to do to continue the freedoms that they gave everything to secure for us?

You are encouraged to make copies, and share with others, so that the truth of our nation's history will be told.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:31 PM

American Christianity today is hardly Christianity: it is less about the New Testament than it is about the Old Testament. No love, tolerance, peace, gentleness, respect for women, cheek-turning -- none of that wussy stuff.

American Christianity today is all about judgment, control (look out, women!), power, retribution, smiting, wrath, and imposition of all these things on others.

Abortions are not okay, but wars and executions are okay. It's not death itself that is bad -- only certain types of death.

Jesus Christ would not recognize what some Americans -- fundamentalist Americans -- call Christianity. He would be the first one judged and found wanting by these dipshits.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:25 PM

Well, Chuck Hemrick, I have never hidden the fact here at Madcat that I am of Christain Faith but would take exception to your assumption that the "left" has much of an influence on the church or the policies of the government. You chose the 60's as the turnining point. To me and many other Christains, yes, the 60's was an important decade because many of us saw first hand what's behind those nice suits, dresses abd pot luck dinners at the church in Thursday nights and what we found wasn't at all pretty... Yep, I'm not sure where you were going to chucrn then, or if you were going to church but in thre church I grew up in, our fine caring minister was run out of the church for, ahhhh, being against the Vietnam War. So were many families, including my own where my father was a decon. Yep, this is what I saw and, rwll ya what, it was ugle and so unlike anything that I had been taught about the way Jesus wants us to live.

And it wasn't just my church that purged itself of them "commie bleeding heart peacenics" but churches across America as intolerant heathens showed loving compassionate folks to the door... Now I'm not going to say it was like that in every church but I don't think you would find too many liberal Chrisatins who went thru it that don't have similar stories about their churches.

Now, just in case an pinkos goy thru the first purge we have the anti-gay movement spreading thru what's left of Christain churches, further isolating anyone who might actaully believe in tolerance and love so that these folks will next be shown the door.

Now as Jerry Rasmussen pointed out this has not hit the black churches and I can honestly say that as a white Christain the only church I have felt comfortable in since the 60's are black churches, Oh, I'm sure this will get some folks going but, hey, its the truth. Seems that Jesus has holed up in them while white Christains figure out how to either get their churches back or start new ones...

As per usual, MO...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:14 PM

I just attended a wonderful and enlightening lecture and tour at the Old Manse in Concord, Massachusetts.

It is clear that many of the colonial settlers, and colonies themselves, were founded by Christians, in particular, nonconformist Christians. The Puritans who settled New England were of the same sect that led to the overthrow of the English King during the Revolution in 17th Century England. The Quakers were instrumental in the founding of Pennsylvania. During the American Colonial Era, the Puritans gave way to the Congregationalists, who distinguished themselves by electing their leaders (and refused to call where they worshipped 'churches'). The Congregation split when the majority voted to become Unitarian.

There were historical happenings known as The Great Awakening, and The Second Great Awakening. Some early luminaries such as Ralph Waldo Emerson gave up on Unitarianism and embraced Transcendentalism.

What this adds up to is that whatever you mean by 'Christian' was in fact a broad ranging exploration of the intellect that went beyond what many people, perhaps yourselves, regard as Christian in this day and age. When the Framers are referring to 'Nature and Nature's God' without mentioning Christ, I think you are hard put to make Jesus the center of some imaginary historical America.

That having been said, Americans have certainly put religion high in their personal lives. Early American villages were pretty much homogeneous and didn't perceive a difference between church and state. The buildings people worshipped in were the ones they conducted town meetings in.

My main point is that you can't properly put this issue on a bumper sticker. And if you want to sleep with a bible and a copy of the Constitution, fine by me. I just think a pillow is a bit softer.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:09 PM

And Claymore has a rapire for those who are!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:05 PM

Oh but I also have a Claymore for the folks who are not thinking!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 07:37 PM

Kendall doesn't need a sword. He is armed with a rapire wit.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:47 PM

I'd suggest sussing out truths rather than rules...they tend to retain their relevance a bit longer!

Our founding fathers did have swords, it is true...but I believe they also wore clothes.

Unless I have been badly misguided, which   is perfectly possible.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:27 PM

And, in case anyone was wondering, our founding fathers did have swords....

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:24 PM

How can you ask for anyone to base their behaviour upon the Bible if you are not willing to, yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:21 PM

This is your soul that you place at risk. What if you are hit by a truck?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:20 PM

so, why then should ANY of us follow any of the rules of the Bible?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:17 PM

It's a calculated risk, bb.

As long a death bed conversions are OK, I am going to wait until the last minute!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

And I shall convert him to the rightous path of armed nudism.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM

This thread appears to be a lot of trollishness. The original poster knows nothing about American history and less about the Constitution. He is a trolling proseletyser for HIS brand of christianity

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM

Or are you saying you get to pick and choose which of His words you want to follow?



And yes, I have a sword... Got one before I was ordained, so I still have my clothes.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:03 PM

Ah, but the (red-letter in my Bible) words of JC specify a sword...

And what does your physical comfort have to do with fulfilling your religious obligations?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:02 PM

beardedbruce,

No, and if that is what the Bible demands, it will be a difficult decision.

First point, it gets a bit cold here in the winter. Also, as another great philosopher once said, "I just don't look good naked anymore".

Second point, a 38 caliber or a 44 is a proper arm, at least out here in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:43 PM

pdq:

Have you sold your clothes and bought a sword?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:31 PM

As that great philosopher Peter Green once said, "Please don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answers that you want me to".

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:22 PM

BB,

That is the funniest line I have ever heard from you!! Thanks!

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:05 PM

ah, but those who are born again are without sin- and can throw all the stones they want...

"If Christ died for my sins, he over-reacted."

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:03 PM

And let him that is without sin cast the first stone.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

PDQ:

I was describing people I have met. If you have not, well, perhaps I've just been unlucky?
ANyway, sorry I offended you -- I am assuming you don't think the shoe fits, anyway.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:59 PM

Luke 22


35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:57 PM

Were the Pilgrims who hanged the Quakers Christians? Is George W. Bush a Christian? He has signed more death warrants than any governor in history.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:56 PM

Anyone here is free to try to convert others to his/her religious or political belief- Just remember that that means that the person trying to convert others is fair game to the efforts and comments of others. Only fair...

Are you an armed nudest, like the Bible tells you to be?

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: kendall
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:52 PM

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:51 PM

Amos...your statement of 03:28 PM is beneath contempt. I have never met a Christian who matches the model you have constructed.

I will back off and say "the post of 03:28 PM is the type of statement that usually comes from an asshole".

Chuck Hemrick made many positive post as Tar_heel. His family band is truly folk music, the reason that Mudcat was started. If there is no room for non-PC variance on Mudcat, it is not Mr. Hemrick's fault, it is the fault of a small band of PC Brown Shirts.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:34 PM

PDQ:

I refuse to stand up for the kind of bitchy intolerance the starter of this thread is promoting. If that makes me an asshole in your bnook, so be it -- I doubt it will sell many copies, though.

I think hateful and arrogant exclusionism such as promoted by Mister Humchuck upthread is unChristian in the extreme. I'm sorrry if you disagree with me.

Do you think Mister Bush is a Christian as well, then? On a Crusade, is he?

A

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Bert
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:30 PM

Well said Amos. And a lot more politely than I would have put it.

I learned a hell of a lot more about tolerance and love of one's neighbor, from a year living in an Arab village than I did from many years of "Christian" schooling.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM

How bloody christian of YOU, pdq!

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:24 PM

Matthew 24:

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
signs 2nd Thess 2:9, Rev 13:13

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:31 PM

Amos...you are not a Christian, you are an asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: America WAS a Christian Nation
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:31 PM

The sooner this globe bans all religions and flags (until we're mature enough to deal with them), the better for all.