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performing in churches ? |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: GUEST,mg Date: 16 Oct 10 - 11:46 PM I don't know if you are or not but you are in line with the Catholic church of my childhood which forbad us to set foot in a Protestant church without permission from the pastor. That was for weddings and funerals basically. Don't bother asking if you can go just to attend a service. We also could not use the YMCA for similar reasons because they had religious activities there. So you would be following a long tradition of avoiding other churches for fear of spiritual contamination or something. mg |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Deckman Date: 16 Oct 10 - 11:44 PM But wait ... there's MORE ... "If you wanna' get in trouble, let me tell you how to do it, Just go to a church concert, and then you're into it, 'cause the room is big, and the seats are wood, and the music doesn't really sound like it should ... ... kinda muffled .... tame ... and there ain't no wine! The intermission is the time to beware, You never know what to expect in there, You're surrounded by bibles and tithing cards, Everyone whispers it's no place for bards ... ... kinda quiet ... no joy ... spooky! I'll grab my coat and hat and find the back door now! bob |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: DebC Date: 16 Oct 10 - 11:40 PM I have performed a number of concerts in churches and it really depends on the space. I recall a time when I performed in a church and the performance space had a HUGE cross behind me. I was very conscious of the symbol and because of that did not perform certain songs that I would have normally done. BTW-that decision was mine and mine alone, but I was still influenced by the symbol. Debra Cowan |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Deckman Date: 16 Oct 10 - 11:23 PM Thanks for the post Laurel. BUT ... if I willingly walk into a church am not I giving tacit approval to that church's activities? bob |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: open mike Date: 16 Oct 10 - 11:00 PM one event comes to mind and that is a bluegrass concert held at a ranch which is sponsored by an evangelical church. They are not at all interested in any other style of music being presented at this venue.. only musicians whose music is predominantly gospel -- no "secular" music. On the other hand, churches often will hold concerts, especially in their social hall...not always in the sanctuary. And as was mentioned, their facilities are often rented to presenters who have no affiliation with their denomination. In Sweden, since churches are experiencing lower membership numbers, they often hold concerts in the main sanctuary. The places usually have good acoustics, ample seating (if not overly comfortable seats)for audience and serve as a good public meeting place or venue. There often is a good kitchen, as well, so preparing and serving food is convenient to do (to feed the multitude). |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Deckman Date: 16 Oct 10 - 10:43 PM I've re-read your post several times and I think I'm getting your drift. I'm NOT avoiding this concert to protest. And I did e-mail the performer to say how dissapointed I am and why. I think when "churches" open their doors for non religious events such as concerts, usually for a fee, they are trying to wear two hats that don't really fit well. bob |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Deckman Date: 16 Oct 10 - 10:28 PM Your answer confuses me, and I'd REALLY like to understand your point? bob |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Oct 10 - 10:24 PM I don't think it helps to try to send a message by being more isolationist and exclusive than that which one wishes to protest. It's just not an effective way to make the statement... and if it hurts an artist's bottom line by narrowing their audience and CD purchases, who is helped there? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Deckman Date: 16 Oct 10 - 10:14 PM Joe ... quite a wonderful post! You must be stuck at home on Saturday night without any gigs! Actually, if you were to switch a couple of your observations around, put it in the key "G" ... it would make a really good talking blues! I am appreciating the comments. I think some folks are getting my thrust. bob |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Slag Date: 16 Oct 10 - 09:44 PM Interesting post Joe. All churches have an "agenda" just as all businesses have one and all embassies have one (or two;)) as well as any other organization. Just visiting shouldn't tarnish your reputation or theirs but it is wise to learn of their agenda and any hidden agendas they may have. You are right to be concerned that some may be using your appearence or visit to promote something which you do not support. Do your homework and if there is any doubt ask and make known your intent. It is always easier to not go than to have to explain yourself at a later date. Having said that, I think that most community churches really just want their neighbors to know that they are regular folks too. They are not eating babies or stalking former members. Mostly, they are trying to overcome the bad publicity that rains down on all when some minority outfit does such things. At these special meetings where entertainment is provided they are all there to have a good time but don't be surprised if they have a couple of "commericals" inviting folks back. After all that is why they are there, same as a business having a special event. They want cutomers to know where they are and what they can get. That's all. |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 16 Oct 10 - 09:38 PM Mr. Deckman
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Crowhugger Date: 16 Oct 10 - 09:24 PM I expect the likelihood of proselytizing to be lower when someone has rented the building for the event, of course depending on who that someone is. And, sometimes 'passing the plate' isn't about supporting the church; it can also be that the performers are simply charging whatever you can afford; this I've seen mostly when the performer is a member of the church and gets to use it at little or no charge. |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Oct 10 - 08:14 PM "Safe" churches, Bob? Well, I've always found Unitarian and Reform/Conservative Jewish and Congregationalist (United Church of Christ) services to be delightful. Most United Methodist churches on the West Coast are nice, but not the East Coast. Most Lutheran churches, but not the Missouri Synod (although I have been to wonderful Missouri Synod churches). Episcopalian churches are usually quite nice, but some are overly formal and some are angry about the nationwide Episcopal Church accepting gays and women priests. Presbyterians are a mixed bag - many tend toward the born-again side, but some are very open and intellectually stimulating. Some Baptist churches defy the born-again stereotype and are absolutely wonderful (and have music to die for). Most Black churches are very welcoming, and have amazing music and legendarily musical sermons (the Pentecostals can be a bit much, however). There is usually at least one Catholic church in every diocese that is the "liberal parish," and a number of others that can be quite nice - stay away from Catholic churches that have anti-abortion propaganda displayed, because it's a sure sign that anger is a dominant aspect of their agenda. Catholic Churches run by religious orders, especially Jesuits and Franciscans and Capuchins, tend to be very open - but there are some religious (dis)orders that are horribly doctrinaire. I'm a bit hesitant to invite people to my own parish, because I think of it as a "work in progress." My pastor and I have our disagreements, but I have to say that he does a wonderful job in contact with the public, especially at weddings, baptisms, and funerals. I am an Associate Member of the local province of the Sisters of Mercy, a wonderful group of Irish-born nuns - and I'm proud to invite anyone to activities at their convent. For the most part, they are brilliant women with a passion for social justice (Glenn Beck wouldn't like them). My (Cork-born) pastor had Jimmy Crowley perform at the Mercy convent a year or two ago, and it was wonderful to have great Irish music with all those earthy Irish women there. I've never been to a Quaker meeting, but I've been to lectures and song gatherings and a Quaker music camp that are very folkie-friendly. Orthodox Jews can be a mixed bag, too - but I've had a wonderful time associating with Orthodox Jews, and I can't get used to the female rabbis and cantors in Reform congregations. Tootler mentioned doing recorder performances in churches. There's an annual Twelfth Night recorder performance in an old Lutheran church in Sacramento, and it's just perfect; as are the performances of a cappella Christmas music in the Catholic cathedral and the Franciscan church in Sacramento. I can't imagine them anywhere else. We have the advantage of having at least one Chanticleer concert a year. I would imagine that most of the members of Chanticleer must be gay, but somehow they have no problem finding old Catholic churches to perform in. For most of my lifetime, the Catholic Church had an unofficial "don't ask, don't tell" policy about gays, but conservative forces have lately forced the Catholic Church to tighten up on that and a number of other issues. Still, most Catholic parishes don't go out of their way to be offensive about gays and abortion and other things. If you don't make an issue of it, they won't. I guess I wouldn't have too many qualms about attending most concerts in churches, but I've found that born-again churches have a hard time resisting the temptation to proselytize (and pass the collection plate) during performances. Most other churches are very welcoming to people who attend concerts, and they're usually very generous with cookies, coffee, and jello mold. They usually won't push their religion on you - but they do like it if you eat hearty. Don't expect gourmet coffee - I don't know why, but churches are tied to those godawful percolators. This is an important thing to know about churches - they really want you to eat, far more than they want you to believe what they believe. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: olddude Date: 16 Oct 10 - 08:01 PM I am not a Baptist, yet one of my biggest fan's (his words not mine) is a Baptist Minister ... Faith is one thing, my faith is serious, just because I don't attend someone else's church doesn't mean they can't like the music and enjoy it, they would not ask you if they did not ... people are people. But if you are uncomfortable with it then don't do it. As far as attending someone's service. I been to a lot of beautiful services of all denominations. My one rule, start preaching on politics and not the Lord and I walk out ... that means my church also. For the most part, I never hear anything but the Lord and that makes me smile |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Leadfingers Date: 16 Oct 10 - 07:54 PM Richmond VA has an excellent Traditional oriented Concert series in a Synagogue , well supported by the congregation , but NO religious connection at all = and its an excellent venue . No Problem for me as a Catholic to have played there . |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: GUEST,Russ Date: 16 Oct 10 - 07:15 PM Deckman, If you feel that entering a church validates it,and that troubles you, don't do it. This seems to be a situation where letting your conscience be your guide is the best approach. Although I feel differently, I don't see any point in trying to bring you around to my point of view. Russ (Permanent GUEST) |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Deckman Date: 16 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM Thanks for your thoughtful postings. Joe ... your response addresses another delemma ... which churches are "safe churches" to attend, and which should I avoid. bob |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Tootler Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:58 PM I belong to a recorder group and we regularly perform in churches. Although I am not a religious person, it doesn't give me any problems. Mostly we are performing music as part of a concert of essentially secular music but I have been involved in performing as part of a service. While I agree with you about the problems of extreme beliefs and we are seeing the consequences of this too often in the world just now, I am happy to support people on a personal level and to respect their beliefs. On a purely practical level, churches often have excellent acoustics and there is something magical about performing a renaissance fantasy in the type of acoustic you often get in a church, especially an old one. |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:55 PM Hi, Bob- Sometimes, churches can use a non-religious concert to advance their religious purposes, and that makes me uncomfortable. Most times, that's not the case unless the performance is "sacred music." I guess I do feel a level of discomfort in most church concerts, even in my own church - because I view the space as "sacred space" intended for worship (and on the other hand, I feel very comfortable at the religious services of most non-fundamentalist religious denominations). Unitarian churches and Quaker meeting houses work well for concerts, because they're usually quite devoid of religious symbolism. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: performing in churches ? From: GUEST,andrewq Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:53 PM A church is its congregation not a building. If you're not attending a service I can't see how you are giving validation to its beliefs. Church buildings were used for markets and all kinds of things in earlier days; until recently they were always multi-functional buildings. Isn't it great that they make their often fantastic acoustic available for the wider community? Andrew |
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Subject: performing in churches ? From: Deckman Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:39 PM I realize that I might be starting a discussion that will upset some folks. That's NOT my intent. I wish to pursue a SERIOUS discussion of the plusses and minuses of performing in a "church." For your background ... I am NOT a believer in "churches." This does NOT mean that I don't have a faith. I have a faith and I follow it carefully. I have, over the last few years, come to believe that "churches" are places that gather groups of believers of a particuliar faith/sect/denomination/cult/congregation. I have also come to recognize the downside of extreme beliefs. It was just four years ago that I willingly shared a Seattle "church" venue for a concert with the wonderful Don Firth. This morning I decided to NOT attend an upcomming concert of one of my most favorite folk perforems, because he has changed his venue to a "church." In all honesty, I feel that if I enter a "church", I am giving validation to that faith/sect/denomination,cult/congregation. Does anyone else out there agree with me? bob(deckman)nelson |
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