 sj |
||
|
||
THE WINNER
|
|
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: The Shambles Date: 09 Nov 00 - 02:14 AM The ballot paper could easily explain the difference btween the exit poll figues and the actual ones. A lot of voters would have believed and stated that they had voted for Gore, when they may not have? Maybe the networks did not get it so wrong after all? |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Margo Date: 09 Nov 00 - 01:32 AM Hey Bartholomew, What interesting points you have brought up! America is not supposed to be a democracy, rather a republic! There's a huge difference, and I think you understand it. Margo |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: GUEST Date: 09 Nov 00 - 01:05 AM If DuMbya gets in it will be a sad, scary day for this country. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: katlaughing Date: 09 Nov 00 - 12:32 AM Charlie, I heard that same woman. She was a young woman and this was her first time ever voting. We need young people to be involved, but with that kind of first experience, when she said there were signs all over telling people they had the right to change their ballot, if they thought they'd made a mistake, is not going to build their confidence in the system which needs them to participate so badly. That doesn't sound like a red herring to me, Doug. Her mother had the same confusion with the ballot. Thanks for the link, Miriam. I've done eough graphic layout to know that the holes for the righthand side of candidates SHOULD have been placed to the far right, just to avoid such confusion. It would have been a simple thing. Stupid to have them all running down in the middle row. I also heard that the people were going door to door getting a petition signed for a new election there and that two lawsuits had already been filed on behalf of the voters. THIS is what democracy should be about. The people organising by grassroots and demanding that their concerns be handled legitimately, instead roling over like meek lambs and taking whatever is dished out. It would be interesting to know about the company which designed the ballots. kat |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Thyme2dream Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:59 PM Buchanan did well in West Palm Beach...better than in other counties in the state--BUT, I heard an interesting fact on NPR this afternoon (you know they aren't slanted for Bush!) During the last presidential election, Buchanan also did well in that same county--it was the third highest vote for him in the state-couldn't you figure he got more votes there this year cos the same faithful crowd stayed loyal? Gee, maybe people voted for GORE by mistake! |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Charlie Baum Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:50 PM What most disturbed me today was a story from Palm Beach County, Florida (All Things COnsidered, NPR). A woman was presented with the confusing ballot. She brought it to the election official to ask if she had marked it for Gore or Buchanan. The election official said she had punched the hole for Buchanan. The woman said that she had wanted to vote for Gore and asked for a fresh ballot. The election official denied her a new ballot, saying "one per person," grabbed the incorrectly marked ballot from her and thrust it into the ballot box. This is a clear violation of election rules, which specifically state that every voter who believes a mistake has been made or wishes to change his mind is entitled to a new set of punch cards until the voter is content that the ballot correctly represents his vote. This complaint is the most blatant case of election violation, and I wonder how many times the election official was able to repeat it during the day. It's not just that the ballot was confusing, but that voters were denied the right to correct their mistakes. --Charlie Baum |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Bill D Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:59 PM I don't expect any new elections in any of those places...I can stand losing, if it is REALLY losing....but when it is so damn close, you want it totally fair. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Bill D Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:51 PM I heard a guy on a call in talk show who said HE voted in Palm Beach, and now that he sees it, he is NOT sure how he voted.....he ALSO said that there were not NEARLY enough poll helpers to deal with everyone...especially with the many 70 & 80+year old voters there..... yeah...technically, DougR is right...they are supposed to read VERY carefully and pay attention, but ballot designers oughta be more careful not to make it so easy to miss! Buchanan got 3400?? or so there, and no one can find 75 people who admit to voting for him....enough to change the Florida totals. Now, suppose that mistake had cost Bush rather than Gore.....how red would that herring be then, Doug? |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Troll Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:38 PM Isn't this FUN? And in only four years, we get to do it all again! troll |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Troll Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:29 PM There would also have to be a new election in New Mexico where a "data glitch" threw out 68,000 ballots. And in St. Louis where the polls stayed open AFTER the court-mandated closing. There have also been reports that some troops overseas did not get their absentee ballots. And what about the medias announcment predicting a Gore victory BEFORE the west coast polls closed. I'm sure that had an effect on voter turn-out. troll |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Lonesome EJ Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM I have heard several commentators suggest Al Gore "do the right thing" for the country and concede the election.Consider this- Gore won the popular vote,and a Bush Presidency will be by vote of a MINORITY of Americans.Could Bush have stolen the Florida election? there are widespread stories of missing ballots,misleading ballots,and Jessie Jackson has said that there were many closures of polling places in black precincts where hundreds of Gore voters still stood in line. If,in fact,there were improprieties,Gore would do America a disservice by conceding.If the irregularities are accidental and inadvertant,perhaps he should be magnanimous and bow out. I would not be at all surprised if there is a new election in Florida,or at least Palm Beach County.Imagine the spectacle of both gigantic political machines grinding down on the 60,000 voters of Palm Beach County.Hey,we should do the whole thing live on NBC...let Gore,Bush, and Nader live and work with the folks there,and they could vote one out each week. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Troll Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:26 PM There were sample ballots sent to every registered voter in the state. If anyone had a problem understanding the ballot they had an opportunity at that time to complain. This situation is kinda like the fellow who told the golfer who told the tournament officials on the 17th hole that he had been entered in the wrong handicap group. "Why'd you wait until now to tell us?" asked the official. "Up to now I was winning." came the reply. troll |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: bflat Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:15 PM And now for a Tom Paxton encore....S**T! |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: MiriamKilmer Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:13 PM Here you will see a picture of the faulty ballot. Sorry I forgot to make the clicky, the other place to which I post does them automagically, so if you make them clickies yourself, they come out looking like garbage, My sister has a friend who thinks she voted for Buchanon by accident.
|
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: DougR Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:09 PM Yeah, it must be pretty difficult for folks who cannot read, or cannot see arrows pointing to the correct space to punch, to use a ballot like the one used. That's why there are people at the polls to help such people vote. It's a red herring, in my opinion. DougR |
|
Subject: "THE ONION" GETS IT RIGHT From: Jim Dixon Date: 08 Nov 00 - 07:09 PM 8 November 2000 BUSH OR GORE: 'A NEW ERA DAWNS' AUSTIN, TX, OR NASHVILLE, TN--In one of the narrowest presidential votes in U.S. history, either George W. Bush or Al Gore was elected the 43rd president of the United States Tuesday, proclaiming the win "a victory for the American people and the dawn of a bold new era in this great nation." "My fellow Americans," a triumphant Bush or Gore told throngs of jubilant, flag-waving supporters at his campaign headquarters, "tonight, we as a nation stand on the brink of many exciting new challenges. And I stand here before you to say that I am ready to meet those challenges." "The people have spoken," Bush or Gore continued, "and with their vote they have sent the message, loud and clear, that we are the true party of the people." With these words, the crowd of Republicans or Democrats erupted. © Copyright 2000 Onion, Inc., All rights reserved. http://www.theonion.com/ To see more of this article click here. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: wysiwyg Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM I know-- let's all pray an exact tie in Floh-ree-duh...... do they do a runoff then (right into the swamp) or do the electors get to play grabass then???
We got the the Alligator 'Lector blues... |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: MiriamKilmer Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:38 PM http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,sunsentinel-nation-82373,00.html Here you will see a picture of the faulty ballot. My sister from Palm Beach (not the ritzi part) said she looked VERY CAREFULLY at that ballot before casting her vote for Gore. There's more good stuff at the site where I found that link: http://www.tompaine.com/ |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Bert Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:06 PM The price you pay for gas! not bloody likely Squeaks.
|
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Jim the Bart Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:06 PM As a student of history, particularly that of my people (the Poles), I find this turn to our discussion very interesting. One of the reasons that Poland was such a mess for so long was that it was a pure democracy; any landowner could vote. They elected their king, who ruled til he died. Any individual citizen (landowner) could kill legislation. It sounded like a good idea at the time. Unfortunately, it led to total gridlock and extreme corruption. Every "citizen" who was down on his luck put his vote up for sale to the highest bidder. The result was predictably chaotic; the King of Sweden was once "elected" to rule Poland, and proceeded to pillage his new realm. What a mess. None of this was news to the founding fathers, who had good reasons to insist on things like representative democracy and the electoral college. If any of the 'Cat's scholars could add to my comments, I'd appreciate it. I'm at work and "shooting from the lip"; some of my facts may need buffing up. Pax Bart |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Liz the Squeak Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:04 PM Fat lady won't sing until the postal votes are in - you guys could be in for another week of this!! So hands up who wants to be a colonial again!! *BG* LTS |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Peter T. Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:47 PM How about this alternative: Back to the ancient Greeks,not to mention the jury system. People should be allowed to sign up, by paying $10.00 to a lottery, indicating their willingness to be decision-makers for a year. They would have to pass a simple competence test (more than GWBush ever did), not be too lunatic (more than Richard Nixon ever did), or senile (Ronald Reagan). The $10 million dollar prize would be paid to each of the 100 winners, $100 thousand each as salary. They would be the legislators. Think of the new perspectives, the interesting debates, the possibility that any citizen could have a real say in running the country. 100 would mean that the law of averages would flatten out the looneys. Worse than the present system? I don't think so. yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: MichaelAnthony Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:26 PM I'm all for new parties. The media and those parties in power don't give some a chance. I hope Nader gets the 5%. I like folk. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: DougR Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:07 PM Hi there, bbc! It's nice to see a posting by you again! Been doing anything interesting lately? DougR |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Midchuck Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:54 PM Why do we need a legislative body when we have the web? All we need is a sufficiently secure password system to make sure nobody votes but once, and every piece of proposed legislation could be subjected to a referendum. You would need some constitutional safeguards, of course. Probably be a good idea to provide that any new law needed considerably more than a simple majority to enact, but repeal of any existing law needed less than a majority... Peter. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: L R Mole Date: 08 Nov 00 - 03:01 PM "...I'm sure it wouldn't interest anybody, Outside of a small circle of friends..."the sainted Mr. Ochs. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Bert Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:42 AM Bagpuss, you're on |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Jim the Bart Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:39 AM Good thoughts, Little Hawk, but you underestimate the power of greed and corruption. A new system would just mean the wealthy and corrupt would have to find new ways to use their money and influence to screw the regular guy. Yeah, I'm more than a little bitter about this election (like I've been about almost every election since I was old enough to think). Yes we need a new way to pick our leaders, but what stops your "committees" from becoming parties? Oh well, we need to keep those cards and letters coming in - all suggestions should be heard! |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:14 AM My condolences as well to my friends south of the border. We are presently having a Canadian election which is every bit as silly as the one you have just completed...just doesn't last one tenth as long. It will be over in a short time from now, and little, if anything, will really change, except that the rich will probably get richer, and there will be a few more homeless on the streets of Toronto and other cities...regardless of who wins it. Someone said "Democracy doesn't work!" Well, of course not! Not the phony excuse for democracy that we have at present, because it ISN'T REAL DEMOCRACY AT ALL. It would be better to ban all political parties and simply have individuals run for election on their own personal merits as human beings. Those individuals could be funded from a pool of public money, rather than from private (read: corporate) funding. Each individual, up to a maximum of 5 candidates per riding, would receive EXACTLY the same amount of money to run his campaign. The campaign would be limited to 40 days maximum. The individual receiving the most votes would win that riding. The winners of the ridings would form state committees of a non-partisan sort. The state committees would elect from their membership a national committee, after a period of holding discussions. The national committee would elect from its membership a federal committee, which would appoint a cabinet and a chief executive. The PUBLIC would have the right to vote any member of that government out of office at any time...by a 66% vote of dissaproval. This would make those in government think twice about abusing their privileges. Now think about it. Eliminate political parties, eliminate your ridiculous electoral college, eliminate BIG MONEY behind the scenes, and you have eliminated all the graft, corruption, and divisiveness of your present system. Your present system CANNOT work. It is not democracy, no matter who wins your election...because the RICH and only the rich control and run your present system. And they distract you by dividing your attention between the Republicans and the Democrats and putting you at each others' throats...until the day after election...and then they cynically tell you it's time to "heal the wounds and unite the country". What utter bullshit. Democracy indeed! By the way, I looked outside this morning, and the world is still beautiful, thankfully. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Alice Date: 08 Nov 00 - 11:12 AM Here is a message from the discussion going on at the professional illustrators forum regarding the Florida voting... interesting...
--- It's been reported that in Broward county Florida, confusing graphic design on the ballot has resulted in over 3000 Gore voters mistakenly voting for Buchanan.I've seen it. It's confusing to me and I'm no octogenerian. With Georgie ahead by about 1700 at this time it's possible that bad design could throw this thing. Amazing. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: GUEST,Bob S. Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:55 AM The recount in FL will probably take a week at least. They have to wait for the overseas ballots to show up. In the meanwhile whoever is responsible for the recount has yelled for her lawyers. I guess she doesn't know what her job is. Now we will have recounts and challenges until some judge can be persuaded to validate the results. We will never know who won. Bob S. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: katlaughing Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:45 AM You say you want a revolution.... |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Mrrzy Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:35 AM I'm just glad I didn't lose a night's sleep waiting up for the returns... but the pundits are right, at least it isn't BORING! But I still fear, I fear... |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Jim the Bart Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:23 AM Oy Vey...If I had only gotten in one more really clever quip, if I had only made up one more scandalous story, if I had only sedated 1,000 more blue-haired ladies... |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: L R Mole Date: 08 Nov 00 - 10:18 AM Put the acoustics away and plug in the electrics, folks. Time to turn it up again. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Pseudolus Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:08 AM Florida, the only state where the election is best out of three!!!! So far, Gore 1, Bush 1. I think the best line of the night was from Bob Dole of all people who in response to the question, Could the electoral vote end in a tie said, "If it does end in a tie and they can't pick a president, I'd be glad to serve."
Frank |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: SINSULL Date: 08 Nov 00 - 09:00 AM 4 years of "subliminable messages". I don't think I can take it. Is our children safe from illiteracy with Bush in office? |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Peter T. Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:50 AM How are things in the banana republic this morning? The light on the shining hill, the beacon of the world, the ballot boxes in the swamps of Dade County? yours, Peter T. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: MiriamKilmer Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:49 AM I found you! (I had left my browser open on the old thread, and when I refreshed it, everyone was GONE! I posted there. Now I'm here. Kat, there are two midi file links at the link you gave me, but my player rejects both of them. However, "The Wearing of the Green" is entirely familiar... and green is so appropriate as a color for "le variateur d'ambiance du concombre saumuré."
|
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: kendall Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:41 AM They are ALL sleeze bags. Its vital to be a politician. Does anyone really think that Nader is the savior? Got news folks, he is just another power hungry politician. that is the only reason anyone runs for high office. That guy in NJ spent 6o million dollars of his own money. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: GUEST,Bob S. Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:27 AM At least the people in Gore's "home state" of TN had the sense not to vote for him. They know him. Bob S. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: kendall Date: 08 Nov 00 - 08:25 AM Is it, or is it not well known that Bush lied?That newspaper reporter asked him if he had been arrested after 1968, and he replied "NO". Is it or is it not well known that he was arrested not once, but three times? Then he takes the moral high ground, attacking Gores credibility. This bird couldnt qualify for a regular Civil service job, yet he can be president. What a country! |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Dave the Gnome Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:58 AM Never forget that anyone who thinks they can run a country and therefore stands for election cannot be sane. What makes matters worse is that people know this and still vote for them anyway....;-) Alternative to democracy? ANARCHY RULES OK!!!! BTW - the OED primary definition of anarchy is absense of government and I'm all for that!!! Dave the anarchic gnome |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: InOBU Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM Polar Bears turned black Roe v Wade turned back. Ralph Nader gains a little ground, But the world turns upside down. God we hope not... Larry (it is still in play at 6:30pm) |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: The Shambles Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:32 AM Come on stop 'beating around the Bush'. Who won? |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Ringer Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:05 AM Democracy is the worst possible way of getting a government... except for all the alternatives. |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Banjer Date: 08 Nov 00 - 06:02 AM It ain't over till the fat lady sings..And she won't sing till all the Florida votes have been recounted...Does it really make a difference though?....One is as bad as the next one, maybe just in a different way! |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: bbc Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:44 AM Although my radio is still saying it isn't final, I dearly hope that Bush has won. I have been ashamed to admit to being an American during Clinton's terms & Gore doesn't seem any more moral, just more inept. It's a dark day in NY--that's for sure! Moving to CT or MA is looking like a more pressing goal!!! This may even more me to buy a bumper sticker for my car for the 1st time--"Didn't vote for him; didn't vote for her!" Where's DougR? Let's get a drink, honey! bbc |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Bagpuss Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:43 AM Alternatives to democracy? I volunteer to be your benevolent dictator :-) Seriously though, you should know better than to take the unofficial results of the tv stations. The difference in Florida is small enough to be withing the margin of error and a recount could change it all. With so many more votes to recount there, though, it may take a day or so. never trust exit polls, my friends lie in them, just to make the forecasters look stupid! Bagpuss |
|
Subject: RE: THE WINNER From: Thyme2dream Date: 08 Nov 00 - 05:30 AM I for one have been ashamed and disgusted by our leadership in the last eight years. Whatever the issues, I think Gore personally is a fairly intelligent, but nasty man. He would not be a leader I could be proud of, and I am hoping against hope that I can wake up sometime in the next few days and be proud again. If Bush is elected, I hope that he will follow through with his ideas of bringing the nation together, and really working with both parties on solving problems. I don't think you all have as much to fear or swear about as you think you do if he is our next president...with this sort of split vote, no one has any kind of dreadful power until they prove themselves in reality...and with a split congress as well, every major decision will be a battle for either man. I respect you all and your right to swear at me now, and will try to stay friendly and cheerful, but with all the stress I finally just had to put in my tuppence! |
| Share Thread: |
