BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 09:35 AM

You see, this is the problem.

There may well be more arguments against than for, but when weird beards and people in ethnic skirts join the politicos and space cadets in shouting conspiracy, most people turn off.

Something that politicians are having to think about these days is that people are far more sophisticated than they used to be. Donkeys with red rosettes just aren't enough to get the votes and philosophies out. Ditto Col Blimp standing for the Tories. it just isn't that simple any more.

Start politicising it and you may as well piss in the wind. And you know, that would be sad. As an ex miner who then went into vibration for a living till first retirement, I have a few technical questions myself before I am won over by the reassurances of the fracking companies. But like many others, I am not going to be swayed by "all Tories are disingenuous bastards."

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:28 PM

Conspiracies are not theories, they're crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 08:14 PM

"The fundamental question is do you want your freezer defrosting overnight, to be fumbling for your matches & candles in the evening & morning?"

Perhaps the question should be, "Do you want to die from air and water pollution when there are far better solutions?"

Fuck this never ending circle of bullshit. The info is available on the internUt if you can be arsed to educate yourselves. Fracking kills. If it was just those uneducated that proffer silly arguments that would die from fracking, that would be fine with me on accounta they are part of the problem. That's it for me. I haven't the time for such tripe and lard. gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 05:28 PM

Consider the possibility that you may be seen as promoting your own form of "conspiracy" in your last post Raedwulf:)

I suspect one mans reality can be easily seen as anothers conspiracy, depending on your perspective and experience on any issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:51 PM

The fracking companies in the UK aren't going to speak because there isn't any point. Just look at the microcosm here. The first few posts were conspiracy heaven - "it's all ben sorted out behind closed doors; bribes you know" - oh, sorry, I should have said greased palms, a much nicer description.

That's aside from the knee-jerk enviromentalist "It'll bring on Doomsday!" reaction. Don't get me wrong. I'm mostly green inclined & I've no opinion on fracking either way. I do know what people are like, though. Quick to label things, especially if said things will affect themselves. Slow to listen to anything that might force them to embarassingly have to change their mind. And very vocal on very little information...

Fracking in the US has no more influence on UK fracking than, for example, US employment law (which is far less generous to the employee than the employer) has on UK employment law (which is the opposite). So there is no reason to link US fracking practice to what might happen in the UK. Fracking might be a disaster in the UK, but it's more likely to be better regulated (note: I do not say "well regulated"; only "better").

What will be a disaster will be running out of energy or having to pay extortionate prices for it. Green energy, alas, remains comparitively expensive. Nuclear & fossil are castigated & reviled for a variety of reasons.

The fundamental question is do you want your freezer defrosting overnight, to be fumbling for your matches & candles in the evening & morning?

It's not a question people like asking. Even less do they want an answer. The reason the fracking companies don't answer is not because they're scared, but because they see no advantage in doing so. If everything they say will be buried in an avalanche of NIMBYism (which it will be), they might just as well wait for a better time to state their case. Though I do agree that saying you'll turn up & then failing to do so is shite!

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:33 PM

Oh... one more side effect... it takes a LOT of water and some people, even towns, are going dry because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:21 PM

"Gnu, I bow to your superior knowledge of the subject."

Not required. What is definitely required is for everyone to educate themselves. This is some serious shit and it affects millions of people from a local to a global scale. On the local level, all fauna and flora are affected or possibly affected, including sickness and death. Once the air and water are poisoned, ya can't fix it. The side effects, as if any need to be discussed, are 24/7/365 noise and light pollution, constant tanker truck traffic, pollution which includes many carcinogens all they way up to radioactive crap that will be a problem for thousands of years, and others.

The volume of (dis)information is staggering, indeed daunting, and, more so, damning, of this method which has only been used for a little over ten years. Horizontal hydraulic fracturing of rock strata for gas extraction is unadulterated evil for profit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 01:00 PM

How about asking the Tory MP:

1. Do you believe in man-made climate change?

2. Do you support fracking?

3 (a). If he answers 'no' to 1. and 'yes' to 2., ask him why you should believe him rather than 95% of the world's climate scientists and what qualifications does he hold in climate science? In addition, if the community he represents is harmed by fracking, will he be prepared to resign as that community's MP?

3 (b). If he answers 'yes' to 1. and 'yes' to 2. ask him why he's supporting the extraction and burning of yet more fossil fuels? In addition, if the community he represents is harmed by fracking, will he be prepared to resign as that community's MP?

3 (c). If he answers 'no' to 1. and 'no' to 2., ask him why you should believe him rather than 95% of the world's climate scientists and what qualifications does he hold in climate science? In addition, ask him if he's going to vote against fracking in the House?

3 (d). If he answers 'yes' to 1. and 'no' to 2. tell him that if he wasn't a Tory you might even consider voting for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM

Well (pun kinda intended), the deal is that these frackers have lawyers, guns and money and they are not afraid to use em all because they want more money. They have used them all here in New Brunswick, Canada but the people still protect... we WILL win. We have something more powerful. Knowledge and purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:58 AM

Try "Will you be voting for or against the rights of your constituents to own their own property and the land it is built on?"

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:38 AM

I'm seeing my (Conservative) MP tomorrow; any suggestions for "to the point" questions to ask him.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM

I think it is far from said and done. When the boss of a fracking company says he will pull out of the UK unless the law is changed something has seriously rattled his cage. OK, someone has said yes, and probably been paid for it, but the companies are now seeing that it is a political hot potato and there is every chance that the laws will not be changed. That is, in my opinion, what Francis Egan is shouting about. Watch for some red faces when they have to give the money back for reneging on promises :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:33 AM

"So I'm not wasting any more of my time protesting, I'll be better off playing my guitars and mandolin and hopefully improving my skills on those. "

And burying your head in the sand. Might as well, you don't appear to be using it!

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 08:57 AM

Won't be when you can get free unmetered gas direct from your kitchen sink..... Can't wait. Have you any idea how much bloody gas the aga takes?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 08:49 AM

My point was that our government have already made the decision to permit fracking, the licences have been handed out to the frackers, fracking is inevitable, fracking will happen in the UK, and no amount of protestation will alter that one iota.

So I'm not wasting any more of my time protesting, I'll be better off playing my guitars and mandolin and hopefully improving my skills on those.

Oh, BTW Musket, my cooker's electric! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM

It is an uphill battle when, for economic reasons, the regulators are often in league with energy development proponents.

The promise of potential of cheap local energy to fuel lifestyles blind the public. Economic concerns increasingly outweigh environmental concerns. Few take the time to read vast amounts of research, prefering to rely on "marketing messages" for information. Well crafted industry and government marketing approaches are often effective in crafting public attutudes. Protests have a decreasing public impact, except with the converted.

Trust that government regulators will protect the environment has led to much environmental degradation in the past, and will likely do so in the future. Environmental protection laws increasingly serve the interests of development. Reduced government environmental research,and the muzzling of government scientists has limited objective research, with vested interests increasingly steering and funding research and the "research message". Fewer investigative journalists has "limited the voice" on the other side of many environmental research issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 06:31 AM

Gnu, I bow to your superior knowledge of the subject. But if you are right, then there is even more reason to evolve effective protest strategies.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 06:02 AM

"...the implications of fracking are a bit blurred at the moment..."

No. They are not. Research before you speak. When I said, above, that it would take one two months to review my compilation of research, I meant EXACTLY that. Two solid months - every day. The bottom line is, do not allow unconventional horizontal hydraulic fracturing of gas bearing rock.

Protest is a dirty word here. It's 'protection' and it works. Fracking is being banned in many countries and in areas within many other countries. The problem is, it is not happening fast enough to prevent water and air pollution that kills... immediately and for a very, very long time after the gas is gone.

I shall add, I have no intention of taking the time to edify any herein. The research is easily accessible to anyone who wishes to edify themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

If you're really concerned about fracking, form a local organisation. It need only consist of a few people but make sure that those people have relevant skills. You should exclude (often tediously vocal) moaners and whiners who are eager to identify problems but expect someone else to solve them. Everyone in the group should be prepared to take ownership of problems. The organisation should then set itself some limited goals and objectives

As Musket says above, the implications of fracking are a bit blurred at the moment. An initial key task of your organisation should be to do some objective research and to find out exactly what the country is letting itself in for. Also find out what your local politicians think - are they pro-, anti- or undecided. If they're pro- or undecided, can you motivate the local community to make them change their minds? Remember that politicians are primarily motivated by votes.

Finally - and I hesitate to write this - if fracking goes ahead, and the perils we've been warned of are real, then environmental disasters may happen: Whole communities may be damaged by earth tremors, or others subside into sink holes, or water supplies might become contaminated. In such an event, could your organisation play a role? Is there a possibility that you could advise local people what to do in such a disaster happens or help them to claim compensation?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 04:09 AM

In the US, BNSF Railroad is marketing its ability to ship fracked crude oil by rail. As the Sacramento Bee reports, this poses a serious hazard for those of us who live along the railroad tracks. As far as I know, the Union Pacific is not shipping oil on the Donner Pass Route that goes past my home, but BNSF is apparently using the Union Pacific's Feather River Route, which goes through a Sierra mountain pass that is ecologically sensitive, the watershed of the Feather River that feeds into the Sacramento River. A derailment could poison most of the water supply of Northern California.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM

I'm not going to defend the fracking companies here, and many of the concerns about the possible real cost of extracting do seem to have foundation. The debate as to international independence from the likes of Saudi Arabia and Russia versus whether the cost in real terms is a subject ideal for such public meetings and consultations.

The fracking companies however, whilst conveniently not attending such debates are legally just the contractors. The government are offering the licences and it is with them and the local authorities that debate should be taking place with. If you reach a stage where you are discussing with the contractors, the debate has already been won and lost.

I suppose on a similar subject, we are surrounded by wind farms that we weren't asked about and the latest I hear is someone wishing to turn a field down the road from me into a solar panel farm. I must admit, I've got a few on my roof for that matter, but they are well hidden and nobody can see them...

The arguments against fracking include some statistics that don't really stack up in reality. Likewise, the assurances don't seem to either. More information rather than polarised opinion is needed. Hopefully before Backwoodsman has to connect the gas cooker to the cold water pipe....

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM

"The truth is that the decisions have already been made, the deals done, and the palms crossed with silver."

That is true, of course. That is how things work. But it doesn't mean that you should disengage from the process and stop protesting - that is handing victory to the evil, greedy ones on a plate! Remember that everything from slavery to the, seemingly, unassailable power of the tobacco companies to poison their 'customers' were all 'done deals', decided behind closed doors. If no-one had protested there would still be captive people being forced to work on sugar and cotton plantations and people dying from preventable lung cancer.

My MP once told me that there are not enough votes in the environment - well there won't be ANY votes if the environmentalists disengage! Environmentalism is a war - just as anti-slavery was a war. War is a risky business - you aim for victory but you constantly risk defeat. Wars can be won by adopting clever and novel strategies and tactics. But this particular war is not going to be won by endlessly telling people who agree with you what they already know - that's just a waste of energy and has no tactical or strategic advantage!

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 02:05 AM

It's pointless attending meetings, or signing petitions, or camping out at likely fracking sites, or any of the other things that anti-frackers involve themselves in. The truth is that the decisions have already been made, the deals done, and the palms crossed with silver. Fracking is here, it's inevitable.

My town is one that will be fracked beneath. Sold out by those bastards in Westminster. I wonder if they'll be fracking under Camermoron's home?

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:18 PM

"Why won't the fracking companies speak?"

Utah Phillips said, "The Earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses."

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:49 PM

BTW... in addition to NA links, you will find lots of UK links at Frack. And Australian and... nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:36 PM

BTW... here is the pinned post at Frack...

There is a lot of info on this page but I just want to rhetorically ask one question before I submit the body of this pinned post... if fracking is safe, why was it exempted from the requirements of the Clean Water legislation of the USA through the Haliburton Loophole?

This is a repository for news media coverage, reports, studies, ongoing debates, government actions/legislation, court cases, accidents, incidents, protests... whatever. It is NOT a discussion forum. It is meant to be a resource for anyone seeking information on fracking. Note that while I encourage people to inform members about protests/protections by sharing urls for such group pages and websites with brief descriptions, sharing posts of these is not permitted without an explanation of why they should be allowed. Thanks for your understanding.

Please send me a message if you want to be added to this group as I am sometimes busy elsewhere or forget to check for requests more often than I would like. I have had too many people request to become members who have no timeline, no friends and no observable reason to join this group. If you are not here to contribute meaningful posts in line with edifying members about fracking, don't bother to request becoming a member.

BTW... there are hundreds of links here in Frack so don't feel daunted when reading them. Read what you can and do what you can do to disseminate the info. Additions to our collective edification are truly appreciated.

Finally, I live in nb.ca so posts may be specifically about nb.ca more so than other locations.

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:32 PM

Wanna know about fracking? Go to my Facebook page Frack and read for a couple of months. Don't frack... it'll kill ya. https://www.facebook.com/groups/187245954789252/

Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:30 PM

Most big companies, of this type, do their lobbying, unseen...behind closed 6doors, where they can "stack the deck" and "grease required palms" with the regulators and politicians...where it really counts. They normally have no public face, but employ others to state their case... in their defence...when needed, and not normally at any point before.

While it is a sure thing they will know what goes on in public meeting, it is not viewed in their strategic interests to attend open public meetings, where they could be subject to one, or more unpredictable, uncontrolable and embarassing questions.

You are just viewing the situation from your perspective, not theirs. While you may see it as a missed opportunity for them, they would likely see the meeting as a "no gain scenario" in the overall picture. Public opinion is only a factor if it is likely to influence those who matter (listed in my first sentence). As long as the public has a underlying need for the product, and government the taxes, royalities, and political contributions, IMO, don't expect much to change. People vent at public meetings, and feel good (and look good) for doing it. But, it normally has little impact beyond that.

Subject: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:08 PM

My wife and I have now attended several public meetings to discuss the pros and cons of fracking (UK).
The shale gas companies never show up.
As a result we have yet to hear any of their arguments and they put themselves in a very strange position: do they think that their arguments need no explanation or are they scared that they will be shot down in flames?
At the very least it is extremely rude to not turn up when you have said that you will, or simply not to reply to an invitation to speak, both of which scenarios have occurred.
It looks very suspicious.
Do you think that they might have something to hide?