 sj |
||
|
||
folklore: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: sian, west wales Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:18 AM No, the Ll can't be pronounced from the back of the throat (if I follow you, leeneia). The tongue position is the same for both examples, isn't it? So, place your tongue in the L position and blow out. That's "ll". Of course, you can then get into the Welsh learners' argument re: blowing equally on each side, blowing on the left only, or right only, and are these differences attached to regional predelictions. I mean - please, get a life, eh? (Ch is like the German one - but I always feel that it's lighter, less phlegmy.) (Is phlegmy a word?) Dave, you might have something with Kinder Scout. I doubt if the names of settlements would have any great Welsh connection but geographical features would be more likely to hold on to old names (i.e. prior to the Saxons or Angles or whoever it was took over once the Welsh retreated to the western hills). Derbyshire would have been 'Welsh' at a time when the Welsh language had evolved from an earlier, and more general, 'Celtic' language. Cwm Ysgwyd would be the valley that shakes. So - either it was prone to earthquakes (not impossible) or we're getting to a point where we should stop making clumsy stabs and find ourselves a proper linguist! And that certainly wouldn't be me! sian |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Paul Burke Date: 18 Jul 06 - 04:06 AM Bollington - has mills, but is quite pleasant and due north from Macc. New Mills and Glossop in a straightish line north. Cat and Fiddle due east, straight on to Buxton. Chesterfield right out past the peak, some mills but more steelworks. Wirksworth small and pleasant, had mills in a rural environment, making government red tape (true!!). Derby out of the peak, south west, mills and urban poverty (cf King of Rome). But to get to the Snake from Buxton you have to go north, via Hayfield and Glossop, so perhaps Glossop or hadfield is what's meant. The Anglo-Saxon period is very confusing culturally. We really don't know whether the indigenous population was exterminated or ethnically cleansed by invaders, died of plague, or lived on and converted to the Saxon language (like most Irish speak english, but are still ethnically Irish). My bet is a combination of all three, with death and eviction reserved mainly for the landowning classes, as few people would cross 150 miles of rough sea in an open boat to get up at 5 on a winter's morning to shovel manure. They'd prefer to take over the workforce intact. There are quite a few names indicating continuity- a lot of Waltons (the Briton's farm), and almost all the river names (Dove, Noe, Derwent, Trent, Amber, Goyt, Wye....). And interesting hints that Christianity might have continued from Roman times through Saxon times, in a number of Eccles place names (Latin Ecclesia, Welsh Eglwys, but English Church). I have my own ideas about Augustine's mission which belong in another discussion. It seems that land ownership became much more of an issue in Saxon times, as Welsh names seem to show a preponderance of toponymics and dedications to saints, while Saxon names are predominantly in the form of (xxx)'s (feature), as Osmaston, Wirksworth, etc. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: leeneia Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:53 PM I've developed a theory about the mysterious Welsh "Ll," I learned from my voice teacher that English uses L to represent two different sounds. One is at the front of the mouth, as in "like." The other is at the back of the throat, as in "old." If you make the L as in "old" and hold it, you produce a sibilant which I think is the Welsh Ll. I think this explains why a sound which I thought was related to ch was spelled Ll. ------ Thanks for talking about the book, kat. I will look for Alison G. Taylor at the liberry. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: katlaughing Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:46 PM LOL, I love it, HuwG! Thanks for such descriptive passages. That "Hasty Patches" sounds like the name of a a fast cow pony in these parts. This is too kewl!! Forgot to say thanks to LtS for the book receommendations. Also, I have seen the Brother Cadfael BBC programs and look forward to reading the books. kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: HuwG Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:24 PM Guess who lives in Glossop, at one end of the Snake Pass ? The "... small hotel at the foot of the Snake Pass" might be either the "Royal Oak", a pub/bed and breakfast on the main road itself, or the "Wind in the Willows", a residential two-star place opposite the Golf Course, about half a mile from the main road on a lane known locally as the "Derbyshire Level" (it follows the 600' contour line). The Snake Pass incidentally (also referred to as the A57), got its name from a pub near to the Glossop end; the "Snake Inn" was named from the coat of arms of the Cavendish family, which featured a snake, and the road was historically the "Snake Inn Pass". Over time, the road has become known as "The Snake" and the inn as the "Snake Pass Inn". It does run through some of the best scenery in England. (No part of England compares with any in Wales). The name implies a tortuous winding road. In fact, it is not too bad, but parts of it traverse active landslide surfaces, and the road develops cracks and sudden dips and "ski jumps". It is a never-ending job maintaining the road about a mile east of the inn; there is a veritable stratigraphy of layers of tarmac and hasty patches. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Dave the Gnome Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM Welsh (or perhaps Celtic?) place names in Derbyshire - Try Kinder Scout. I believe it to be derived from something akin to Cwm dy scwd - Sorry, can't find the proper translation or spelling! I am sure I read it somewhere. Perhaps I dreamt it as I sunbathed on Kinder and was burnt to a cinder... :D (tG) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Crane Driver Date: 17 Jul 06 - 06:34 PM "Orme" is from an old Norse word meaning "serpent" - the Great Orme is a serpentine rock formation sticking out to sea. Rather like the Worm's Head near where we live. The Vikings settled around the coast of Wales, and a lot of place names are Norse rather than Welsh - Swansea was originally "Sweyne's Ey" from an island settlement by a Viking called Sweyn (a common Norse name). Rhossili is pronounced much as it looks - Rossilly - but what would you make of Cwmrhydiceirw? Andrew |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM That makes sense kat, although I've never yet managed a pint in the Cat and Fiddle which is the route we have used mostly when going to from Norfolk/N Wales. The Snake is another road. Sheffield to Glossop. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: katlaughing Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:10 PM HuwG, you've got it, I think. I wasn't sure if she'd made up towns' and pubs' names or not, so didn't include the further info. She DID write, "Beyond Macclesfield, he began the long climb into the Pennines, stopping for dinner at the Cat and Fiddle Inn on the crest of a high moor, before the last leg of his journey through Buxton, and into a town" (see rest of paragraph posted above.) So, does is make more sense to those of you who were wondering about her geography? Sorry I didn't include that bit in the previous quote. It also mentions the character checking into "a small hotel at the foot of Snake Pass..." Jon, the puir idgits...good thing the Coast Guard was there! Thanks, all!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM Looks like all the waters around Angelsey can be dodgy. Just read this which gave me a bit of a chuckle. Could have been nasty though! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: HuwG Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM As a South Walian expatriate in Northern Derbyshire, I have been looking for any evidence of Welsh place names locally, and found none, with the possible exception of Mam Tor mentioned above by DtG. All settlement names are Anglo Saxon in origin; Hope, or hop, meaning valley, is a common root, as is "ton", meaning town. Going due east from North Wales you actually hit Staffordshire; but it doesn't require much compass deviation to get to Macclesfield. The mill towns of Derbyshire occupy the valleys which wind into the uplands of the "Dark Peak". From the description at the head of the thread, the mill town may have been Bollington, adjacent to Macclesfield. (Going north you have in turn, New Mills, Glossop, Mossley.) The road from Macclesfield to Buxton is known as the Cat and Fiddle Road, from a pub which stands at the highest point. It is known for a steady toll of motorcycle deaths every summer, as the rider every bike over 250cc in half the north west of England tries to prove they are the next "Foggy" (motorcycle champion Carl Fogarty). The "Dark Peak" rocks are Upper Carboniferous (Pennsylvanian) shales, sandstones and grits. Buxton lies in the "White Peak", in Lower Carboniferous (Mississippian) limestones. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Dave the Gnome Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM I meant Saxon invader of course. I don't think the Anglo bit came in until they megred with the earlier Angles did it? DtG |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Dave the Gnome Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:44 AM I certainly concur with Paul on the geography of the place - I have walked around most of the peak district and the mills and terraces are there, but not in the numbers suggested. What about further south and east into Derbs though? I must admit my knowledge of Derby, Chesterfield and those environs is sadly lacking:-( As to the Ango-Saxon invaders. Hmmmm. Looks like the writer got their info from this Wikipedia article. Knowing the way that site works I would have serious doubts as to it's veracity! I always thought peak was a corruption of Pict but perhaps Paul can confirm or deny that. Certainly places like the fort on top of Mam Tor are Iron Age and precede the Anglo Saxon invader by a good few centuries. Cheers DtG |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Ferrara Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM Going back to "a nigger in the woodpile," I heard it used a a kid (1940's). It seemed to mean a hidden problem, like sneaky clauses in the fine print of a contract, or some unpleasant or tricky factor that was being covered up, that wasn't right out in plain sight. Something to watch out for. Or hidden treachery, say on the part of a used car salesman. The image is that if this guy is hidden, he's up to no good. But that's not how it's used in the quote at the top. There it's more like an unpleasant fact that is revealing itself, that can't be hidden or ignored in spite of efforts to hide it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: GUEST,Jon Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:09 AM Llandudno being Saint Tudno |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: 8_Pints Date: 17 Jul 06 - 08:29 AM Hi Mo, Minor correction: 'Ll' is not pronounced with a 'cl' in my experience but more like 'LAN' where one blows softly through the mouth for the first letter. Nothing quite like it in English so it is understandable why it is easily mis-pronounced. Used in combination 'Llanfair' would trabslate to the Church of Mary, or St. Mary's as in the famous Llanfair PG village in Anglesey. Bob vG |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Paul Burke Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:47 AM I'd like to know where the character travelling into Derbyshire was meant to be going. If you come from the west, that will be from Macclesfield, and the next town going west is Bakewell, which has a few mills but isn't exactly replete with them. Even New Mills (for which he'd have to dogleg north-east) isn't the Dickensian dark satanic hell that it sounds, it's actually quite pretty. As for flat a's, I'll get the tuner out before I speak next time. Think of 'bath'. Dahn sarf, that's pronounced 'bahth', USAians say 'bearth', oop north it's got a short crashing a. I don't think the folks are remnants of invading Anglo-Saxon whordes(*), I doubt if anyone really wanted to invade Derbyshire , more got pushed there by folks who wouldn't let them stay in the better farmland round about. It wasn't just the doorstep that got scrubbed with a donkeystone in Salford when I was a kid. In the 'respectable' streets, they scrubbed the whole flag pavement out to the kerb. It's said that when the trams (streetcars to t'other lot) reached Droylsden, the housewives were so houseproud that they blackleaded the tram rails. (*) Useful word (C)Paul Burke 2006 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: sian, west wales Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:41 AM Of course, the other fairly well known factoid about Llandudno is that Alice Liddell's family had a summer home there for several years - she of "Alice in Wonderland" fame. I don't think anyone's ever proven that Lewis Carroll ever was there, but I think there are a few Alice-related touristy things in the area. I remember walking through an Alice 'grotto' in Happy Valley back in the late '50s. I think I saw a documentary on the Great Orme recently. Interesting. Rare plants, and the bronze age dig especially. Re: books, the Brother Cadfael (pr. CAD vile) book, "Morbid Taste for Bones", is set just about 10 miles inland from Llandudno, if memory serves. sian |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Liz the Squeak Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:56 AM Try and get hold of the 'Dark is Rising' sequence by Susan Cooper - or at least 'The Grey King'. In that book, Bran (pronounced Brahn) explains the pronounciation of Welsh to Will Stanton in a way that has served me well over the years. LTS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:57 PM Yes the tidal currents are bad, I prefered sailing from Holyhead. It was there that I learned to love powerboats, because rain, offshore winds and fast tides caused me many a long trip back by rowing ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: katlaughing Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:52 PM Thanks, everyone!! That helps me, muchly, to get some things envisioned better in my mind. I should like to see the Great Orme, sometime. DavetheM, fast tides, eh? Topsie, I though there was a Derbyshire in England, but in the book, it didn't seem that far away from the setting in Wales, so I wasn't sure about the accent. (I forget that several hundreds of miles there can bring one to different countries, unlike out here where it can leave one in the same State as they started in.) sian, thanks! I had guessed it was Welsh for "Davey." I really appreciate the further explanations and the derivatives. I love languages and love learning more about them. Mo, thanks. I thought I undertood the "fly in the ointment" kind of thing, but was shocked the author chose to use that word. P.C. or not, it's not one I would choose as a writer. Bonecruncher, interesting. A friend of mine who'd lived in Germany used to tell me how important it was to the hausfraus to have their front steps perfectly cleaned, swept and polished every morning. I haev sandstone outside my back door. Thankfully, I don't think it can be polished!:-) Again, thanks to you all. Would love to hear more personal experiences if anyone would like to share...the archealogical stuff at Great Orme, sailing the Menai, etc. kat |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Bonecruncher Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:07 PM Depending on the type of stone from which the front doorstep was made, there were a variety of methods of cleaning. A perfectly clean doorstep was paramount in the lives of most town-dwelling women. Happily, fashions have changed! In the south of England most steps were of Bath or Portland stone - a form of limestone. They were cleaned with a "holystone" and then whitened. I cannot remember the name of the whitening agent (although I sold them when working in my parent@s shop in the '50's) but it was a block the size of a large bar of soap and was used with water. I berlieve the holystone was a block of pumice stone, similar to that used when scrubbing the decks of ships (of for removing hard skin from your feet). Colyn. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: GUEST, Topsie Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM Derbyshire isn't made up. It's an English county, and very beautiful. If you started from North Wales and headed east, right through Lancashire, you would then find yourself in Derbyshire, roughly halfway across England. Buxton is in the Peak District, which is a National Park. The accent and dialect are very different from Welsh. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: GUEST,Jon Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:13 PM Been to the Great Orme loads of times - seem to remember even having a pint with Mudguard there. Never been on the Menai Straits but crossed lots of times by road. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Mo the caller Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:06 PM Yes the Great Orme is a hill or headland on Llandudno. I live a few miles from the welsh border and all I know is Ll is pronounced 'cl' (and I expect that's a simplification). As for the "nigger in the woodpile" it is a saying, like "the fly in the ointment" meaning a disadvantage or drawback (I'm not sure if they mean quite the same). It was certainly used when I was growing up, not so much now perhaps. Though some people get very heated about the "stupidity" of "political correctness" and will insist that e.g. no-one could possibly object to a harmless children's toy (not my view now) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: sian, west wales Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM I think you'd understand the pronunciation better if you thought, "DEwee Prees": "De" with a short e, as in 'pet'. Prees is the beginning of anglicization of ap Rhys - 'son of Rhys'. Price, Brice, Bryce, Breese, et al are all further incarnations of this. As well as the loss completely of 'ap', which gave us all the Rhys or Rees, or even Reeses names. (Happens elsewhere too. i.e. ap Ywain become Owen, Owens, Bowen, Bowens, etc.) Housewives all over Wales - and I imagine throughout the British Isles - had their little tricks to out-do their neighbours in housekeeping (something to which I can NOT relate) and I've read academic essays about the vanities involved in cleaning the front doorstep of terrace houses. I know that in many parts of Wales where slate doorsteps are the norm, women polished the surfaces in very specific pattern which eventually wore themselves permanently into the surface - a way of expressing yourself creatively in a very dreary world. Seems to me that they had various secrets for making them shine, and paraffin rings a bell ... The Menai Straits are indeed very popular for sailing but I'll bet Dave can also tell you how perilous they can be. Fast tides. sian |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM here ya go kat http://www.llandudno.com/orme.html The Menai Strait is what seperates the Island of Anglesey from the mainland and a great place to sail... Yours, Aye. Dave |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:04 PM Isn't this folklore and thus destined for the upper region? I got a good reply up there once on the right pron. for Ar Hyd Y Nos. ~S~ |
|
Subject: BS: Welsh pronunciation & other Welsh stuff From: katlaughing Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM joe clone
Whenever I read a novel which has place names or proper names in a language I don't know, I always try to figure out how to pronounce them, properly. I've just finished a good yarn called "Simeon's Bride" written by Alison G. Taylor; a murder mystery which takes place in Wales. |
| Share Thread: |