BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 12:01 PM

"Records in those times were pretty sparse and vague and based on legends and hearsay."

Heh! A mere assumption on your part, Bill, and one that cannot be substantiated. They may have had ancient maps of Atlantis. They may have had written records of contact. They may have had artifacts. You're suggesting that OUR legends and hearsay NOW about matters a few thousand years prior to Plato are just as good or more accurate than his information then was? ALL we have about it now (Atlantis) is legends and hearsay. Plato may have had a good deal more than that.

I would not underrate the acumen of the learned men of Greek civilization if I were you, Bill. They had a lot of knowledge that was later lost in what we term "the dark ages".

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 11:06 AM

I believe that Atlantis = Tir na nOg.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 06 - 09:57 AM

remember, Plato said that Atlantis was thousands of years before HIM...and even Thera was 1200 years before Plato. Records in those times were pretty sparse and vague and based on legends and hearsay. Distances and directions were not measure exactly, and the civizilations we DO know about from 10000-12000 years ago that were not destroyed in disasters were pretty primitive.

It takes a huge leap of faith to assume that Plato had any real 'data'. All the looking may well find interesting stuff about some settlements and fill in some gaps, but I won't hold my breath that we ever discover a large, advanced 'different' group worthy of attaching the name "Atlantis" to.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 11:22 PM

Plato may have had actual historical data about Atlantis. If so, it has been lost, along with much of the other information passed on from earlier times. A great many ancient records are said to have burned in the great library in Alexandria during Julius Caesar's fight with the Egyptians.

If Plato was serious about Atlantis (and one assumes he probably was), it seems pretty evident that he did not mean (the remains of) Thera or Crete. They were definitely not located "beyond the pillars of Hercules", but were within easy reach of Greek ships in Plato's time.

Why would he say "beyond the pillars of Hercules" unless he meant it? After all, it is a rather striking thing for him to have said. Beyond the pillars of Hercules was a place where Greek vessels did not willingly venture...perilous and unknown waters, in their opinion. Their galleys were not suitable ships for venturing into the deep Atlantic.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 10:56 PM

The first mumblings about a place called "Atlantis" that sank beneath the waves way back came from no less a person than Plato. Now, where he got his information, nobody seems to know. Whether he had actual historical data, had been listening to legends and giving them credence, or sniffing glue, is unclear. He believed that it was "beyond the Gates of Hercules" (the Straits of Gibraltar), which, one presumes, puts it somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean. It sank, says Plato, during a massive earthquake. He did not, however, say that it was a marvelously spiritual and technologically advanced civilization; he believed that, at one time, it had been a military threat to Athens.

All the stuff about some marvelously advance, utopian civilization living on a place specifically called "Atlantis," complete with paranormal mental powers, possessing magnificent ships and flying machines powered by some mysterious kind of crystals (dilithium, no doubt), came from folks like occultist Helena Blavatsky and her cadre of woo-woos. This was accelerated by the writings of Richard S. Shaver. Shaver wrote for Amazing Stories, one of the more popular science-fiction pulp magazines (lots of the biggies—e.g., Azimov, Heinlein—got started there), and he wrote a lot about such things as the lost continents of Atlantis, Lemura, Mu, and maybe even others. He also came up with that "hollow earth" business (any planetologist, or scientist in general, or anyone who understands planet-sized bodies and gravitational forces, knows that this is physically impossible). Shaver, with the collusion of the, then, editor of Amazing Stories, Ray Palmer, claimed that, although he was putting this stuff forward as fiction, it was all true. A young Harlan Ellison, never known to be particularly shy, recognized it for exactly what it was, and gave Shaver and Palmer a heavy ration of grief about the so-called "Shaver Mystery" they were trying to peddle. Thanks partially to Ellison's gadflying, and, of course, the amused and amazed snorts of the scientific community, it became known as "The Shaver Hoax." Nevertheless, it developed a substantial cult following. Self-styled psychic Edgar Cayce predicted that Atlantis would rise out of the Atlantic Ocean near the Caribbean in 1968 and usher in a New Age. (Damn! Missed it by that much!).

Genuine historians and archeologists believe that if something like Atlantis every did exist, it was probably the island of Thera, or possibly Crete, both of which were inhabited by relatively advanced societies (advanced in terms of social structure, economy, and standard of living—but no flying machines or telepathy—sorry!). Unfortunately, Thera was a volcanic island, and sometime around the 15th century BCE, it perished in a massive volcanic explosion that hurled gigatons of matter into the upper atmosphere and caused a massive tsunami that devastated much of the eastern Mediterranean, particularly the Minoan civilization on Crete. Thera, or Crete, or both, may be the factual basis for the belief in the legendary Atlantis, and where Plato got the idea. Currently, the island of Santorini is shaped like a partial ring. It, and some nearby islands form what is left of the rim of the caldera of a huge volcano and all that remains of Thera. People live there. The island has no fresh water, so they have to collect rainwater in cisterns. They have a small wine industry (volanic soil usually produces good grapes), but the main industry is tourism.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 09:25 PM

Then there's that Darby O-feckin-Gill and the little feckin' payple.

"To be shure, have ye nivver sung the Wishin' Song, at all, at all, at all, me bucko?"

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:36 PM

Of course there's a place called Atlantis.

There's one just south of Bumfuck, Iowa, and another in the wilds of New Zealand.

And there's at least one club called atlantis, and if you get dragged there, you better hope you don't remeber the night...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:11 PM

Life in lava.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 07:06 PM

Groupies? I have gropies. That's even better!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 08:58 AM

What about my lava? Life exists on/in that??

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 06 - 01:57 AM

Damn straight, LH.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 11:37 PM

Beautifully stated, Carol. Now we have Bill on the ropes, staggering in confusion, as his mind stalls before the irresistible force of our well-reasoned and unchallengable arguments. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:57 PM

Anyway, that drop of rain that lands on the vent stack turns into steam, right? And it then re-forms and drops on some other location. So through the miracle of water re-incarnation, it can probably be said that eventually, for every drop of rain that falls, someone gets wet.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:44 PM

ah, Little Hawk, probability says a rain drop will 'likely' hit micro-organisms on the way down, not that they MUST!

(yeah, and silly debates can be almost as much fun as serious ones!)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 10:35 PM

But can the ontological dilemmas posed in the Book of Urantia be juxtaposed in convincing fashion with the theological implications expounded in the pages of Oahspe? And will this have serious consequences on the Celestine Prophecy and will it somehow involve Billie Meier and the Secret Chiefs of the Argentinum Astrum and the White Brotherhood in the City of Pyramids? Or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:53 PM

No....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:42 PM

Has it been definitively established that there never was a place called "Atlantis", then?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: khandu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:31 PM

<>♦

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: khandu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 07:26 PM

I do not know how to do "♫♫♫" on my computer.

Kk

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:36 PM

Okay, Bill, ya got me there...but...wai-i-i-i-t a minute...that raindrop has gotta hit a few micro-organisms on its way down through the air, right? Why, I bet it even contains a few inside itself already! Therefore it STILL got someone wet!

(isn't debating fun?)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:23 PM

THIS river, I'll betcha!


(Sorry, hit the wrong button.)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:21 PM

Not much living in or on

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:19 PM

hundreds of gazillions

I recall that the Japanese made a film about one. Don't think it was hundreds, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:15 PM

so, Little Hawk, even IF I allow you to apply the term 'someone' to entities which have bo discernable self awareness , we have this drop of rain which falls down into this vent stack over a furnace which is engaged in sterilizing and destroying bio-hazards....

only takes ONE counter example out of hundreds of gazillions.. ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 03:17 PM

Betcha not, LF....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:52 PM

microbes, single-celled organisms, protozoa...
Baloney! all fallacies promulgated by atheistic secular humanist scientists! If those things really existed, they would be mentioned in the Bible!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:25 PM

There are tiny living beings in every location on Earth, Bill...microbes, single-celled organisms, protozoa, lichens, etc. Therefore, "for every drop of rain that falls, someone gets wet". ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 02:18 PM

You do, Rap. I await every one of your posts with baited breath. Or, is that the mackerel?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:54 PM

Why does Kendall get all the groupies? How come I don't have groupies?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:27 PM

shouldn't the kendall groupie thing be listed in here as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:21 PM

Of course NOTHING is still sacred. Why, I try to do NOTHING ever day. I am happiest when there is NOTHING to do. I am a true believer in NOTHING. NOTHING is the true path to anything. Put your trust in NOTHING. Amend!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: MarkS
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:18 PM

Post hoc ergo proper hoc. Finally an explanation of why women laugh when I ask them out.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:14 PM

This is a disturbing thread. I didn't need to have Santa shot outta the air like that. Or the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny. Is NOTHING SACRED ANYMORE?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:58 PM

ahem....(if you see my name, and your first reaction is "uh-oh", you'd best skip this...☺)


*begin semi-relevant practical rumination*

Consider the phrase "believe in". Implicit in the very construction is that you 'could' not believe in. That is, the type or degree of proof involved is not absolute, and the interpretation of supporting data and evidence is usually highly subjective.

*IF* such is the case, I usually avoid even using the words 'believe' or 'not believe' for my opinion. I prefer to refer to it all in terms of what I'd be willing to act on, bet on, 'trust' as a pretty reliable working model...etc. (Evolution might be a case in point...the evidence for it keeps getting stronger and the underlying model of 'how' it works becomes more complex AND coherent every day.)

Flamenco Ted, however, has shown me nothing that would make me accept purported messages from the fairies in his garden..☺

In between are some notions that sure are 'interesting', and worth examining....(UFOs and aliens, for example).....to me 'belief', is relevant only to the idea that I sure 'believe' that other life forms are obviously possible, but mathematically likely. This does NOT cause me to 'believe' that they come here....that remains 'interesting' and worth examining.

It's all in the personal attitude and proclivity to need to believe one way or the other.


*end semi-relevant practical rumination*


(oh...and of course, I DON'T believe that "for every drop of rain that falls, someone gets wet" TRILLIONS of rain drops fall on uninhabited areas every day... ipse faxit- quo demonstrandum est - Nil sine, numine - Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - illegimati non carborundum - Carpe Diem, and MAGISTER MUNDI SUM!)

back to our regualrly scheduled BS...as you were!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:00 PM

Nope

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 09:23 AM

I believe everything I'm told - Why would anyone lie to me?

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 01:02 AM

Yeah. But now they're called Neocons.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Boab
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 12:04 AM

Do these Bilderberg Bastards STILL rule the roost???

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 11:05 PM

Scary. Can't say I have...

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 09:41 PM

Not only do I believe in infant baptism, I've actually seen it done!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: skarpi
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 06:26 PM

Hallo again ,

"But I don't believe in trying to convince others to believe in what I believe" . I don´t either.

Azizi , you don´t have to and you know when our people
are with us .


all the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 04:34 PM

"Do you belive in Magic" ? How about the Loving Spoonful ? John Sebastian ?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 04:03 PM

...telepathy, psychic healing, the "hollow Earth" theory, ghosts, an immortal soul, "laying on of hands" healing, the power of prayer, reincarnation, transubstantiation, hypnotic regression, past lives, multiple universes, faster-than-light travel, Lemuria, shape-shifting, lycanthropy, the akashic records, secret masters in Tibet, out-of-body experiences, chimpanzees that talk and write books in 7 languages, after death schools for the soul, multiple levels of spiritual existence, magnetic therapy, the "Greys", alien abductions of Earthlings, the "Philadelphia" incident, the back engineering of alien technologies from downed spacecraft, the Bilderberger group, the Fountain of Youth, the book of Mormon, hamster replication, lucky charms, and astrology?



Well looking at the original post, there are three groups of things in there.

1. Various things that simply cannot be proved or disproved, at least within any concievable science or technology; ie death schools for the soul.

2. Simply impossible things. The Chimpanzee throat does not it allow to speak, let alone seven languages. A hollow earth just does not work etc etc.

3. Things born out of paranoia. Yes, there could be a flying saucer based on alien technology flying out of the Nevada desert. But it all seems rather unlikley, and given just how bad the Goverment is at keeping stuff secret, how come they suddenly got good for this?


In short, I don't believe in any of them. Some of them may be true, but I don't feel the need to believe in them. I believe in love, but that's a different matter....

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: gnu
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 03:37 PM

Nere a 'ope me zon. If the DFO 'adda done their job, see, there still be lots a cod. If Brian Tobin... what? "U"FO? Well, FU too. What? Little green men? The fookin Portageese ya means? Wit their jeezly big freezer boats 'n all? Yees b'y, seen em meself. If I'da 'ad me tree-ought-tree wit me, buddy, I'da 'ad at the bastards 'n... what? Outer space? Loik, spaced out? Ye means the mainlanders? No? What? From the sky? the sky? What?! Ere ye fookin daft man?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 02:56 PM

I believe in life after love

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 02:53 PM

In this immense universe, there are untold billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars, most of which are "main sequence" stars like the sun. What we now know about the formation of stars indicates that a main sequence star like our sun without a planetary system would be unusual indeed. Given that there would most likely be a planet or two orbiting in the "temperate zone" around most of these stars (where water would be in a liquid state), and given what we know about evolution (sorry, creationists), that if life can evolve, it will evolve, statistics alone indicate that there must be an immense number of planets in this galaxy, not to mention all the other galaxies, upon which life of one sort or another exists. Life and evolution being what they are, some species on these life-bearing planets may very well develop intelligence. Some of these species may develop along scientific/technological lines. If they don't kill themselves off in wars (the jury is still out on this this planet), some of them may develop long-range space travel and go in search other intelligent life. And it is conceivable that some of these alien civilizations may have visited, are currently visiting and observing, or will sometime in the future visit this planet.

The contention of many who have seen, or believe they have seen, Unidentified Flying Objects is that UFOs are space ships from one or several of these alien civilizations visiting our planet. This could very well be true. Although I must admit to strong skepticism, given that there is not just the possibility, but the likelihood that civilizations exist on other planets, I find I cannot rationally rule it out.

But it is a gross leap of logic to automatically assume that an Unidentified Flying Object is an alien space ship. The operational word here is "unidentified."

I have seen UFOs. I have seen many UFOs.

Skeptics, bear with me now.

At night, I often see lights in the sky, but I cannot identify exactly what the Flying Object bearing those lights is. But I use my ears as well as my eyes and I make some assumptions. Since the Interstate 5 freeway is not too far from where I live, I can usually hear that the Object as quite probably a traffic helicopter. At least I assume that's what it is. Also, one of the flight-paths to the Seattle-Tacoma International airport passes high over the building in which I live. When lights pass high over the neighborhood and I hear what sounds like a multi-engine jetliner, I also assume that that is what it is. At dusk one evening a few years ago I saw an Object bearing lights following a curved path coming in from the west and turning south onto the Sea-Tac flight path. Other than the lights, I saw it at an odd angle and only in silhouette. It occured to me at the time that what I saw looked for all the world like the Klingon cruiser that Kirk and crew had commandeered and used in Star Trek: The Voyage Home. But since I couldn't see it that clearly and it sounded like a multi-jet airliner, I made a leap of logic and assumed that was what it actually was. Perhaps I jumped to a hasty conclusion. Perhaps I lacked imagination.

[I do sincerely believe, however, that perhaps the government of the state of Texas, and definitely Washington, D. C., have been taken over by surgically altered Ferengi!]

Many flying objects I have seen, I can identify. I know a robin when I see one. And with a park nearby, there a crows everywhere. I spotted what I know to be a Brewer's blackbird out in the Green Lake area, and I once actually saw an American bald eagle circling over downtown Seattle. A bird-watcher friend of mine told me that there is a pair of bald eagles who nest in Discovery Park, and although they usually dine on fish, occasionally they like a change of diet and go downtown to snack on the urban pigeon population.

Can you imagine how startling and amazing it would be to be sitting near the Henry Moore sculpture (sometimes refered to by local wags as "dinosaur droppings") in the open area across Fourth Avenue from the new Seattle Public Library on a warm day, eating your lunch, when a great white-headed raptor swoops in, grabs one of the ubiquitous gray pigeons bobbing about on the sidewalk a few feet from you, and streaks off into the sky with the unfortunate pigeon in its mighty talons?

But I am no ornithologist. I can identify most common species, but as a bird-watcher, I'd make a better plumber. Hence, I see Unidentified Flying Objects every day.

But it is possible that someday when I am moseying through the aforementioned nearby park, a disk-shaped space ship may land near me, and an alien who loves artistic singing may step out, wave its tentacles at me, and say, "Take me to your lieder."

Always endeavoring to be a good host, I will, of course, comply.

Don Firth

(Another slow day at the skunk works.)

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 12:57 PM

Multiple universes. Imagine, a place where honest politicians and liberals (as currently defined by neo-cons) actually exist!

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 12:46 PM

I recently read a book called The Airmen Who Would Not Die by John G. Fuller, and I'm not having any luck finding any commentary pro or con concerning the book or the cases it looks at ... What I'm wondering is how well Fuller's documentation stands up. Anyone know anything about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 12:37 PM

I got a wallpaper on my desktop, as was seen on Mulders office wall in X-Files... the "UFO" hovering over the trees, with the caption, "I Want To Believe"

Only the way I read it.... I WANT to believe... but in the absence of any solid evidence I cannot.... I remain open to examining that evidence however.

Subject: RE: BS: Do you believe in UFOs, God, Atlantis...
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 12 Mar 06 - 12:29 PM

If you don't believe, nothing is possible.