Research project: Traditional Folk music

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 01:59 PM

Thanks again, Jim, for more great detail about that collecting trip. I'll seek out "Whisht".

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 09:28 AM

Brian;
Sorry about the mix-up with names – funny week.
Bill Cassidy slowed his singing down when he had been drinking; his ornamentation remained the same (but slower), and his texts never altered. He tended to slur his words slightly.
We were introduced to 'Little' Bill (sometimes nicknamed 'The Dynamo From Glynn' after the title of one of his favourite songs), by his brother-in law, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors, a somewhat larger-than-life character who was the first Traveller we recorded in 1973. Our early work with Travellers was covered by a rather naïve article I wrote for the FSJ in 1975.
We had been recording Johnny one evening at Shepherd's Bush, and were having a couple of pints when he suggested we drive to Hayes, to the west of London, to meet Bill.
We met up with him and a crowd of Travellers in a pub, had another couple of drinks and went back to a site adjacent to one of the runways at Heathrow Airport (a field referred to by the Travellers as 'The Watersplash')
Sprawled out on the ground under a huge full moon, (probably made larger by the amount we had drunk), we spent the next couple of hours listening to magnificent singing from Johnny, Bill and other singers, to the accompaniment of planes taking off every few minutes. Everybody was incredibly friendly towards us, with the exception of one large man who was obviously not happy. 'Pop's' Johnny, who had noticed the situation, came over and said, "You'll be wanting to record Paddy now". Paddy obliged with 'Roses of Heidelberg' and 'You Will Remember Vienna'. We then became the best of friends, and remained so throughout the years we knew Paddy, which was just as well really as he turned out to be not only a fine light-opera singer, but also a renowned champion bare fist boxer.
I have to say that apart from this hiccup we never had any problems with the Travellers we met.
The last we heard of 'Little' Bill was a few years ago when he appeared in a TV documentary about Travellers made by American collector Alen McWeeney entitled 'Traveller'. At that time Bill was in Cardiff, but we know he alternates between there and Swansea,
The work done by McWeeney and his wife Artelia Court can be found in an excellent collection of songs, stories and interviews in a book entitled 'Puck of the Droms', edited by Ms Court (Univ. of California Press). This includes work done with members of the Cassidy family (Bill would have been too young at the time).
I have mentioned Alen McWeeney's CD 'Whisht' which is entirely made up of recordings of the Cassidy family – well worth getting from Pavee Point.
Thanks for the positive feedback on 'Puck' – it's nice to know somebody is listening.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:01 AM

Jim,
With all due respect to Richard Bridge, I think it was me, not him, who was worried about becoming a "singing text book" (although I didn't rise to such a vivid metaphor).

There's a link to Steve Winick's "Reynardine" article in Folkiedave's post to this thread at 11.28 on Feb 4th.

Fascinating to hear more about the background of "Pretty Polly". A couple of questions: did Bill Cassidy's sobriety or otherwise affect his delivery of the song? I'm thinking particularly about the pacing, and the improvisational nature of the ornaments. And were the truncated verses, where the he altered the tune (e.g. "Get you down, get you down") a consistent feature of his performance of this song - to me, it's another instance where an "imperfection" in the singer's recollection of the text actually enhances the drama.

So Bill Cassidy is still alive....... when I first heard that recording of him it sounded like something from another aeon, another world. Thanks for bringing him to my ears. And if anyone reading this is wondering what we are talking about, go and buy "From Puck to Appleby" and find out!

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:47 AM

Just to add another traditional singer mis-hearing songs at least in part to their betterment. Billy Mills used to sing the "Christmas Tree" at Dungworth and always sang "....over the reefs and the drifts of snow......" instead of "roofs". I prefer reefs even though it is almost tautology.

I have a whole book on Reynardine, since I introduced it into the conversation here - I'll take a look see if I can find it and see what it says.

On Wimberley - I have had a number of copies. There is a low cost Dover publications copy - around 1965 -which ought to be around £15 - £22.00 a copy.

Try Alibris.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:22 AM

Richard,
Agree with you about the dangers of becoming a singing text-book. I feel that all singing should be a mixture of involvement, understanding, and technique.
Replaced words
Mishearing or substituting words by older singers can be a bonus sometimes; have always loved Fred Jordan's Outlandish Knight who came "Alluding to me".
Walter Pardon
Walter was special; we have hours of him talking on tape. We were hoping to put transcriptions up on MT at one time, along with his notebooks, but.........
Hopefully we'll find another source to make them available, along with his notebooks.
Cherry picking
I think that, for a singer, editing and reconstucting songs is unavoidable sometimes, but it should be done with discretion. I would hate to hear somebody singing a full text of 'Bonny James Campbell' (unless they had found a complete version, of course).
Reynardine
The singer, Austin Flanagan, never specified an animal. It was one of the few flying visits we ever paid to singers, we always tried to spend enough time to talk, but didn't manage it on that occasion.
Herbert Hughes, editor of 'Irish Country Songs' heard a version in the 1930s where Reynardine was a fox.
Would be interested in the details of the article you refer to.
Bill Cassidy.
Bill is a superb singer with no outside influences whatever; one of the problems we had was he drank heavily and it was difficult to get him sober enough. The recordings we used on 'Puck' were made in the back of a car in a side street in Harrow after the pubs closed; it was our 6th attempt at Pretty Polly. We asked Peggy Seeger to transcribe some tunes for us at one time; she managed them all except Bill's Pretty Polly and Biscayo; which she found too complex.
He learned all of his songs from his family; his father was a superb storyteller. You can hear his father and other family members on the CD 'Whisht' (Listen) which was issued by the Traveller Group 'Pavvie Point a couple of years ago.
As far as we know, Bill is on a site in Cardiff (or maybe Swansea).
Thanks to all for help in logging in; will try it when I wake up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:49 PM

So if Reynardine was a shape shifter to an animal other than a fox why the name Reynardine? Does the use of Reynard as a name for a fox pre or post date the song?

Robin

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:59 PM

Jim:
No need to apologise for length - that was just the kind of thing I was looking for. Personally I'm as fascinated by the background and ancient references of (particularly) the old ballads as you are, I'm just conscious of the danger of folk revival singers with academic inclinations getting too bound up with the romance and mystery, while ignoring the earthy and sometime rumbustious approaches of "the folk" to this kind of stuff. I'm certainly not saying that traditional singers were mere vessels for songs they hardly understood or whose deeper meanings they didn't care about. I didn't know Walter Pardon personally as you did, but I did realise he was well-read and cared deeply for his songs. I asked my question having witnessed revivalist recreations of songs and of traditional customs which, whilst atmospheric and impressive, have lost entirely the spirit of where they came from.

I'm interested in your comments on "Reynardine"; they are not inconsistent with the mention in Winick's article that an Irish informant in 1904 believed the character to be a fairy and shape-shifter. Did your North Clare singer specifically mention the fox as an example of Mr. R's alter ego? Either way, the article convinces me!

Sometimes it's satisfying to cherry-pick - but at other times that degenerate remnant can seem like a small gem in its own right. But yes, indeed, the tradition should always be displayed at its best.

I will take the time to read Wimberly in full when I can, and give him another chance. Too bad Folkiedave has sold his copy......

On one of the Mudcat 'Grey Cock' threads it's suggested that "burning Thames" is a lyrical corruption. Powerful imagery, though. Likewise, some might say of Cyril Poacher singing "when my bones lie smouldering" in "The Bonny Bunch Of Roses", that he'd misheard or mis-remembered the more conventional "mouldering". Others might say he'd made the image much more vivid, by having Young Bonaparte imagine a violent and fiery death for himself.

Not being a Mudcat member myself (sheer laziness about filling in online forms) I can't help you with that. And I've yet to encounter vagina dentata, so no comment there either.

This last point is off-topic, but since you are (I hope) still following this thread, Jim, I have a question relating to your recording of Bill Cassidy singing "Pretty Polly" (AKA "Outlandish Knight") on "From Puck to Appleby". I think it's a great performance, and I particularly like the unusual ornamentation - it's one of my favourite peices of traditional singing, in fact. But when I played the recording at a ballad workshop, two participants (who were generally pretty knowledgable about traditional style) dismissed it as a poorly-executed attempt at sean-nos style. What do you think of it?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Logon
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 02:01 PM

Jim,

Go to the top right hand corner of any Mudcat page, then click on Quick Links. Click on Log In and you'll be asked whether you're a new user. Register and away you go.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:39 PM

Did I mention that I have often wondered whether Reynardine was actually about the awakening of the female libido, with the "teeth" line being a reference to the Freudian fear (Freudian fears, of course were only articulated by Freud, and predate his naming of them) of vagina dentata?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:09 PM

Brian,
Sorry for not responding – a brief stop in Galway Hospital.
I don't know if Cyril Poacher was aware of the 'circle magic' of Broomfield Hill; I do know Walter Pardon was – also the 'witches' number, nine'; we have him on tape talking about both. He acquired the information, along with the song, from his Uncle Billy, though he could easily have got it from his extensive reading habits, mainly Dickens, Hardy and other Victorian and Edwardian novelists.
Neither do I know if "the Coppers needed to know the history of wit-combat ballads to enjoy "Hey Ho, Sing Ivy", but maybe the question should be, "if they did know, would it have made any difference to their singing (or appreciation) of it?" It seems to have been a significant factor at one time, otherwise it wouldn't have been there in the first place – or maybe it is all a figment of some academic's imagination!
I have already pointed out the traditional singers who regarded Reynardine as supernatural, and I could give you examples of others we have recorded (a North Clare singer gave us 3 verses of Reynardine along with the information that he was able to change into an animal), and I could go on forever about how some of our storytellers regarded the fairies!
One of our problems in assessing what traditional singers knew or didn't know is that by the time collectors got round to documenting the tradition, it had largely fallen into decline and much of the significance of the old references had declined or disappeared with it, leaving what apparently were incomprehensible nonsenses. This was compounded by the fact that very few of the recordists actually attempted to collect anything more than the songs, so we don't really know what the singers thought of them anyway.
You write, "the garbled ballad lyrics and incomplete fragments collected from some traditional singers suggest to me that they weren't too concerned with getting every detail in place, even though a general sense of story might survive".
While I go along to an extent with your point, I wonder how much of this can be put down to a disinterest on the singers' part, and how much to the deterioration of the tradition. It has been our experience that the 'big' singers we recorded were anxious to give us articulate versions, or at the very least, would tell us when the songs were incomplete.
However, as you rightly point out, we are not traditional singers and we have much of this information at our disposal, should we choose to use it to inform our singing. I think your 'self-consciousness' point is an excellent one.
If, as I believe, we are not part of the tradition, do we repeat what we have obtained from a dying (or dead) tradition uncritically, or do we present it at its best? Do we make do with a broken-down version of a previously excellent ballad or do we 'cherry-pick'? Personally, I have (or had, when I was singing) no problem with the latter; I want people to hear the songs in the best condition, not as broken-down, if interesting, relics.
I think this is what I admired most about MacColl and Lloyd; their ability to give the kiss-of-life to songs and ballads on their last legs, though I was extremely uncomfortable with the claims Bert often made for some of his re-makes.
One of the reasons I am so adamant about distinguishing between traditional and revival singers is that I believe the privilege performers have of borrowing from the tradition brings with it the responsibility of displaying that tradition at its best, looking after it so people coming to it in the future can appreciate it in all its beauty as well as in all its cultural and historical significance.
I think the modern singer of traditional material is faced with a number of problems that have to be solved before the songs can work fully; problems like: does the 'Burning Thames' reference in The Grey Cock refer to the belief that the dead found it difficult to cross running water, or is it a powerful piece of poetic imagery which makes no narrative sense?
Or, was the conversation Willie has with the river in Clyde's Water a real conversation or was it, as has been suggested, the type of exchange an irate motorist might have with his car when if it fails to start?
I can still remember the difference made to my appreciation of the ballad 'Tiftie's Annie' when I realised that the 'bewitched' accusation made against Andrew Lammie had nothing to do with being 'bothered and bewildered' but was an accusation of his having used witchcraft to win Annie, and that his visit to Edinburgh was in fact to a witchcraft tribunal to answer the charges.
I don't know if any of this type of information is of any use to modern singers; I believe that should be entirely their decision, but one made on the basis of having considered all the alternatives and being aware of everything on offer. I don't accept the 'I just want to sing' argument; to me, that smacks too much of the 'I've never read a book in my life and it never did me any harm' attitude. By all means reject the old references and implications and replace them with new ones, but do so on the basis of having considered all the options. For me, a major part of the pleasure of singing and listening was finding out – but that's me.
I have to say I have never had any problems with Wimberly's 'Folklore….'. Sure it was written in the 1920s when much of the understanding of folklore was tainted by Sir J.G. Frazer's romanticism, but having said that, it still stands for me as a magnificent and extremely useful piece of research on the ballads, which I believe has never been surpassed, and its main asset is it is a very enjoyable read. I don't think it is a book you can dip into easily, but needs to be read right through at least once before it can be of any great use.
As usual, I have gone on far too long, so I'll leave it there.
Jim Carroll
PS A number of people have suggested that I become a member of this forum – the truth is, I don't know how to. When I first took part, I believed I had signed up; I chose a name (which I have now forgotten), and I posted, but appeared as 'guest'.
I have since realised that I don't know how to post as a member under my chosen name (which, as I say, I have forgotten). Still grappling with modern communication I'm afraid, would appreciate some help.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 01:55 PM

Hey Captain stop typing with fish fingers! Your messages are unreadable.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 01:12 PM

an answer to one of cristians points,a highly respected folklorist/ singer A.lloyd altered texts of traditional songs,see Jim Carrolls post.
in my experience traditional performers,have learned a song /tune often because they liked it . James Kingston a traditional fiddler, who I played with many times,had in his repertoire,Dashing away with the smoothing iron ,bluebell polka, mcleods reel, the blackbird,st patricks day,job of journey work,fermoy lasses,stack oif barley,.to him they were all tunes he liked,the origins of dashing away[he didnt know and didnt care about]likewise bluebell polka,categories to him as a traditional performer,were not important,what was important were whether people would like what he played and how he played,so there were inclusion in his repertoire of peices like The Minstrel Boy.
so as a TRADITIONAL PERFORMER[he learned all his music aurally]he had no television,only a wireless. but would have Putting on the Style[lonnie donegan] in his repertoire because people would have asked him for it[it was popular]the fact it was modern didnt prevent him playing it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 01:59 PM

I was just re-reading Jim Carroll's post of Feb 3rd. A very interesting post, with all kinds of excellent advice about choosing your song, analysing its structure and getting inside it. Jim, I can understand why you suggest singers might want to "dig a little deeper into the background of the song" and to consider what you list as the historical or social implications and the archaic, vernacular or folklore references. That's what I try to do and what many good folk revival performers do. However, this seems pretty much at odds with the way traditional singers went about it. I heartily agree with your praise of Tanner, Larner and Cox for their "commitment and involvement", but I doubt that they or their ilk were thumbing through the pages of L. C. Wimberly to find out the archaic background to their songs. (I claim no exhaustive knowledge of Wimberly, but I have looked up references to particular ballads there, and my impression was that some at least of the analysis is pretty conjectural - please do tell me if this is not the case).

Even if the ballads are indeed filled with folkloric references that we in the 21st century can scarcely grasp, did they mean any more for a 20th century traditional singer than they do for us? Was Cyril Poacher much concerned with the "circle magic" of "The Broomfield Hill" when he led the riotous choruses of "Green Broom" in the Blaxhall Ship? Did the Coppers need to know the history of wit-combat ballads to enjoy "Hey Ho, Sing Ivy?" The garbled ballad lyrics and incomplete fragments collected from some traditional singers suggest to me that they weren't too concerned with getting every detail in place, even though a general sense of story might survive.

I raise this because it seems to me that self-consciousness is one of the factors separating traditional from rival singers. Tanner et al did indeed get inside their songs through "a lifetime of listening and singing", but that's a very different process from combing the volumes of Child for the desired combination of stanzas, or cherry-picking a score of tunes in Bronson. In seeking archaic and mysterious subtexts for songs (a great temptation, I freely admit), aren't we laying ourselves open to precisely the kind of romanticisation that has had every revival performer and floor singer from here to kingdom come introduce "Reynardine" with remarks about werewolves and the supernatural? Bert Lloyd may indeed have "stuck closely to the traditional texts", but substituting the single word "teeth" for "eyes" was quite enough to set every fantasist's juices flowing, and I suspect he realised that very well.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 03:04 PM

Interesting you should say that Dick.

Child - of whom on previous threads you were a great fan, has nine versions of Tam Lin No 39) and three versions of Thomas the Rhymer(No 37).

How do you choose which one to sing out of nine versions and three versions?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 02:44 PM

There appears to be no evidence whatever that Lloyd 'wrote Reynardine and passed it off as traditional' though he certainly did claim it to be traditional. Bert certainly did catergorise his songs, though he was well known for taking liberties with them.
In this particular case, with a couple of slight variations, Bert's version sticks fairly closely to the printed and traditional texts.
His notes to it on 'First Person' were somewhat ambiguous, though he did appear to support the idea that it was a supernatural song, a view held by several collectors. Helen Creighton lists it as a supernatural song and in a note to the version in her 'Maritime Folk Songs' quotes her singer, Mr Freeman Young of East Pepeswick as saying 'Rinordine is supposed to be a magic feller'. Herbert Hughes in his 'Irish Country Songs' says he found a version where Reynardine turns into a fox.
There is nothing wrong with writing, re-writing or adapting songs Cap'n; the problem is when you make false or inaccurate claims on your adaptations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 01:46 PM

a miscellany,a mixture of various kinds.
a Curates Egg,But that brings an element of subjectivity to the matter
as songs go,I prefer Tam linn OR Thomas The Rhymer,In my opinion they have more interesting storylines.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:35 PM

Tell me Dick, let's just assume that it is a song based on a fragment plus a load of broadsides put together by Bert Lloyd, as the article suggests......how would you categorise it?

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:38 PM

What an interesting article. No mention of the theory that Renaudie was deprecated as a libertine as well as an outlaw in France - possibly hence "brought up in Venus train" (which come render "trail" although I prefer "train" "Venus Trail" being as I understand it being a then current euphemism for satyriasis.

Actually, I was referring to the assertion that mixolydian and the other standard modes have distinct characteristics when (if normalised to "C") they are all tunes in C that simply mostly use notes other than the root as the home.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:09 PM

If LLOYD wrote Reynardine,and passed it off as traditional, rather than self composed,it could appear; that he wasnt too bothered with categorising this particular song, correctly.
It has been alleged that the melody for the Abbotts Bromley horn dance, was written by Pat Shaw,It does not matter to me ,neither does it affect my enjoyment of the music, that it has been categorised in correctly.
I have always enjoyed, The Recruited Collier.
my enjoyment of the song would not be altered if I found out A LLOYD had composed or partly composed it

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:52 PM

Dick, I do find it a bit confusing when you use capital letters and brackets for no discernible reason. Whilst it is not compulsory to stick to the norms of communication it helps the process when you do.

Now what on earth did that last post mean?

Dave

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 02:20 PM

sO ALLEGEDLY LLOYD,wasnt too bothered with categories concerning Reynardine .

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 11:28 AM

If anyone is puzzled by Richard's word "allegedly" the article to which he may be referring is here.

A good example of the academic's art.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 08:17 AM

Good heavens! But still think it is better to know the songs origins and milieu, I had lots of fun finding out about Reynardine before deciding to adapt the Fairport Convention adaptation that uses the well known allegedly mixolydian Sussex melody.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 07:37 AM

RICHARD BRIDGE, I agree with you.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:18 AM

There can be little point in slavishly reproducing "the original" (if that can be found) version of a folk song (or any other).. Tape decks and CD payers can do that. If you are to perform a folk song, then it is better to bring something of yourself to it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 04:06 AM

CRISTIAN asked a question how important is harmony.       I mentioned Peter Kennedy,because he believed it was o k to add [harmony/music]to existing traditional recordings,so he has a relevance as he was a major twentieth century collector.
Cecil Sharp also added harmony to his arrangements for folk songs in schools.
I would agree with frank hamilton it depends,most of us find it acceptable that the Coppers sang in harmony,but may or may not find Sharps arrangements acceptable,and probably dont find Kennedys additions acceptable.
some people[ Chris Roche] of the Shanty Crew dont find singing shanties in harmony acceptable[because he argues it is not authentic]his argument as I understand it,Is that these songs should be sung as they were,without harmony.
   I met peter Kennedy only once,I found him a charming man and feel that overall his contribution was a positive one,.
I have never claimed to be an expert on Peter Kennedy,in fact most of the information, I have provided is easily accessible on the internet.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 06:26 PM

Alan Lomax must be accorded great respect for his contribution in the popularization of American folk music...as well as other places. His intuition for folk music was extraordinary and could find wonderful traditional performers and give them a platform.

His big problem came in that his scholarship was limited by his little musical knowledge.
He knew the world of his collecting but not the big picture. The point I make is that he could find traditional talent but that there is an overlapping from folk to art music that is sometimes hard to separate. It depends on the material as well as the performance.

Cantrometrics (sp?) was a noble idea but a flawed one. Why? Because it doesn't consider dynamics, interpretation, individuality of the performer, overlapping styles and leads to a host of generalizations about the music and the people who performed it. I think its value lies in the continuity of the music. Singing styles can be traced to some degree from early
forms to later more complex forms showing similar patterns graphically. But it needs to be considered as an important tool to understanding folk music.

Alan was an important figure for his passion, hard work in elevating the appreciation for folk music and influencing other folklorists and ethnomusicologists. No one person can know everything about a given subject and academicians are right to question Alan's ideas.

I would like to say that I think that the contributions of his sister Bess Lomax Hawes are equally important to Alan's. She is extremely knowledgeable about folk music on many different levels and is a good musician on top of it.

With respect to doing research on a paper, there are prominent folklorists and musicologists to read and study. Ken Goldstein of Penn U., Archie Green (Only a Miner) is a classic folksong book, Jean Ritchie is highly knowledgeable and a traditional source, Jean Thomas, Bascom Lamar Lunsford, Dorothy Scarborough,Sam Hinton, Charles Seeger ...these are mostly Anglo-American sources but there are many important Afro-American sources as well. Zora Neale Hurston as an example .(I've just mentioned the tip of the iceberg).

One caveat....Folklore and folkmusic scholarship is not rocket science and is prone to error. Academic folklore study runs the danger of being folklore itself. Ya' gotta' keep digging and you may never find the complete mother-lode.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 02:51 PM

JIM,Nowhere in my posts have I said Peter Kennedy was a traditional singer,you owe me an apology.
I talked about dubbing on of material to existing traditional recordings,this was a reference to a post by Fred Mcormick[thread reflections Peter Kennedy ]   ,18 sep 06,where he said Kennedy issued recordings of traditional singers Phoebe Smith and Joe Heaney with Unauthorised Dubbing..
on a video about AlanLomax, Peggy Seeger says [probably my most upsetting experiences,with him was when he was showing his work on Cantimetrics to the american folklore society in Philadelphia.
He gave an impassioned talk and they [the academics]tore him to ribbons,because he made some sweeping generalisations you could make exceptions to,.
he was devastated because this was where he wanted to be,he wanted his work validated by the experts].
to quote Pete Seeger.I asked my nephew an ethno musicologist at the Smithsonian institute,why is it that not everybody agrees with Alan,he replied well he makes leaps of intuition that he cant prove.
PeteSeeger said I would trust Alans intuiton rather than someone elses proof.
so he may have been an academic but he was devastsated by their traetment of him.
eveybody is entitled to their preferences music wise,and you may prefer traditional singers to revival singers,personally I would rather listen to Tony Rose than to Gordon Hall, Charlie Stringer,Ted Chaplin,.http://www.dickmiles.com Jim youcanvisit this for free,and hear my singing.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:38 PM

I can verify, as a bookseller, that many people do research from printed sources. And the great bookbuyers/singers are the ones that do a lot of research.

The Kimberley book Jim just mentioned was on my latest list - sold - definitely academic, but loads of interesting and worthwhile comments. People who stick to song books miss a lot. Sorry about the prices folks........

A large percentage of what we call traditional songs of course are derived from broadsides, and I believe I read somewhere that Harry Cox had a big collection.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: curmudgeon
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 11:35 AM

Very astute observations, Jim, on learning songs. That is certainly the approach I have tried to take since I first delved onto the world of traditional song. Upon acquiring a new collection, whether in print or recorded, the first thing I do, after skimming the contents, is to sit back and read the notes so as to have a better understanding of the songs.

Since most of us who are singers did not grow up in the midst of a specific musical tradition, it is essential to both learn the song and learn about the song so as to be able to share that background when performing.

Please continue sharing your thoughts and experience with the rest of us, and maybe consider bcoming a member so as to allow for PMs -- Tom Hall

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

Cap'n,
This thread has been turned by you (I would guess, in an effort to divert our attention away from a couple of foot-in mouths – or should that be feet in mouth) into a critique of Peter Kennedy, a subject you appeared to have had little knowledge of several threads ago – now you appear to have become a born-again Kennedy expert! Nobody disputes his behaviour towards revival and traditional singers, what is questionable is the crass suggestion that he aspired to being recognised as a traditional singer; he was neither traditional (nor a singer to my knowledge).
Thanks to your efforts, we have now arrived at a debate on singing versus research - as if the two were separable.
Surely any singers worth their salt research as many different versions of the songs they wish to sing as are available to them in order to become aware of all the alternatives.
I believe that the learning of a song falls into a number of stages (not necessarily in the following order).
You are attracted to a song, say by the tune, the story, by the singer you heard it from, from having to find a song on a specific subject for a performance, even by a few lines that catch your fancy – a whole number of reasons.
You learn the words and tune (and accompaniment if necessary) and begin to practice it. You tackle any pitch, tone, breathing, articulation or any other technical problems.
You examine the structure of the text to see if there is anything which will help your performance of it, (Irish songs, for instance, make great use of lyrical imagery and poetry, and have a great knack with internal rhyming as a humourous device).
You dig a little deeper into the background of the song; the circumstances surrounding it, does it have any historical or social implications, are there any archaic or vernacular references you don't understand, are there any folklore references; in other words, you get to know the song inside out.
You decide what you feel about the song: how you relate to it, do you empathise with the characters or sympathise with their situation. In other words, you make the song your own.
Through this work, you not only help yourself to sing the song and your audience to enjoy it, but you also give it a better chance to remain in your repertoire than if you had treated it as merely a set of words and a tune.
ALL THIS TAKES RESEARCH.
In my opinion, any singer who doesn't carry out some preliminary work on a song, other than just learning it, is quite likely to be a very shallow, one-dimensional performer (before you do a King Lear on us - no Cap'n, I'm not referring to you – I've never heard you sing) .
Ballad scholar Lowrie C. Wimblerly, in his introduction to his 'Folklore in The English And Scottish Ballads' wrote: "An American Indian Sun-Dance or an Australian Corroboree is an exciting spectacle for the uninitiated, but for one who understands something of the culture whence it springs it is a hundred fold more heart-moving".
By approaching songs this way, singing (and listening) can be a permanent cerebral and emotional, as well as enjoyable experience.
You need to remember that many of us involved in research have a slight advantage over those who consider themselves 'just singers'. Most researchers I know came to the songs as singers – been there, done that, decided to take it further: (Vic Gammon, George Deacon, A.L. Lloyd, Fintan Vallely, Pádraigín Ní Uallacháin, Peter Hall, Frank Harte; all recognised as both researchers and singers). I notice singer Tom Brown has "Dr in front of his name – congratulations Tom, I assume it's music related?
Earlier you gave us your revival- traditional comparisons and said you would rather have a good revival singer than a poor traditional one (I can't help noticing that you often tell us who are good singers, but you never say why they are good – most of the ones you mention certainly don't ring any of my bells).
Even the most asthmatic, croaky traditional singer I've ever listened to brings something to a song that I seldom, if ever I get from even the best of our revival singers; a commitment, an involvement with his or her song which was obtained by a lifetime of listening and singing.
Phil Tanner brought a joyous energy to his singing which outdid any singer I have ever heard a fraction of his age.
Sam Larner gives you the impression that when he sang it was like hearing the song for the first time, even though you might have listened to it (and he may have sung it) a thousand times. He also managed to give the impression that he was singing just to YOU.
Harry Cox's identification with the characters in his songs and their situations often moved a listener to anger or tears. Listen to his bitter comments on 'Betsy The Serving' Maid (about a servant who is transported to America by the parents of the son of the house because the he falls in love with her) – "and that's what the buggers thought of us". Or Dillard Chandler, after singing 'Little Mattie Groves' describing what he'd have done to Lord Barnard if he'd been there. Get that level of involvement into your singing and you know your songs are working for you, and almost certainly for your audience.
Mary Humphreys was right; the older singers may be an acquired taste, but once you have acquired it, it will give you something invaluable for your own singing, something you will never get from a revival singer.
I wrote that I enjoy controversy and debate; I do not enjoy the type of divisive harangue you have managed to turn this into.
Jim Carroll
PS Your somewhat martyr-like bemoaning of your treatment at the hands of us 'academics' fell somewhat flat by your comparing yourself to Alan Lomax; Lomax WAS an academic himself.
PPS I am not!

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: stormalong
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 10:28 AM

I've just noticed this thread and regretfully don't have time at the moment to take onboard all the very obviously interesting previous postings, so I'll just relate my own approach to sourcing songs.

I'm a revivalist singer of traditional songs and carry about 50, mostly learnt from other revival singers of the late 60s/early 70s such as A L Lloyd, Peter Bellamy, Shirley Collins and Ann Briggs etc. They were my introduction to folk music (via Prog Rock and Folk Rock) and have remained my reference point, along with the source singers to which they were close.

The tunes were almost all learnt from recordings as I'm only just learning to play an instrument from written music. The words came either from these sources or from a few staple publications such as the 'Penguin Book of English Folk Songs'. I think only two of my songs came entirely from books and I had to use Noteworthy Composer to capture the tunes.

Richard

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:03 AM

cristian, asks how acceptable or necessary is it to adapt a trdional song in your own way.
the singer BobRoberts is an interesting case,he had an unusual version of, While Gamekeepers lie Sleeping,I suspect he touched it up and added bits himself,he is generally regarded as a traditional singer,.
and probably wrote the monologue, The Oily rigs[so he was performing contemporary material as well],yet he wasnt dismissed as a singer songwriter[he wrote swell your nets full]a modern song written in the traditional idiom.
I myself have added a verse of my own making to Whip jamboree, a traditonal song.
The song THREE SCORE AND TEN, a composed song[mid 1880,s]has survived to this day and is still sung,but it has acquired and also lost verses.
so it would seem that the alteration of songs, has been going on for quite a long time.
I saw recently, that Alan Lomax,had his problems with academics,so im in good company.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:54 AM

JIM CARROLL said he hoped to have an occasionally acrimonious debate,I would like to have a debate that is not acrimonious.,Can we keep it that way.
Peter Kennedy[States that he had over 200 recordings by Graeme Miles]not a traditional singer.
Dick and Sue miles[NOT TRADITIONAL] AND illegally recorded without permission,from a BBC radio folk on2 programme
Jim Mageaan AND Johnny collins,[Revival singers].
Mabsant[revival singers].
there are certain rules on mudcat,I am trying to stick to these.
Malcolm and Jim you,r entitled to your opinions, as I am.
AS Dave Eyre said I might not be RIGHT, but then you may not be either.
What I have said in this post are FACTS,if you dont believe me go to Peter Kennedys website.
Peter Kennedy was a major collector of the twentieth century.
Fred Jordan [both traditional and revival]I cant think of a song I didnt enjoy hearing him sing,[Because of the way he sang]and it never worried me, if it was from his original repertoire.,or acquired from the folk revival,my judgement was made on his performance.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 11:55 PM

If, Dick, you read other peoples' posts with a little more care, you would not waste so much time and space repeating what Jim rightly descibed as 'half-digested gibberish' a little earlier.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 03:37 PM

Jim,If he encouraged his students to add music to traditional recordings,he was showing a lack of respect to not only the material he had collected, but to the singers he had recorded,particuarly as he did it without their permission.
I never said he claimed to be a traditional singer,I said that he thought Bob Blake SINGING was not worth collecting,and that his decision was not based on quality,but because he was a revivalist rather than a genuine traditional singer,
yet he desecrated some of the traditional material he collected with inappropriate over dubbing.
If the traditonal process is that important,why encourage students to make innappropriate revivalist additions.
it beggars belief,and this fom one of the major collectors of the twentieth century.
Jim Carroll,he did collect a song from Alan Lomax[REVIVAL SINGER]Im a rambler and a gambler..FACT.
I never said that revival singers didnt exist.I said something else.
I advise you to read my posts correctly.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:54 PM

Cap'n wrote,
'Peter Kennedy was one of the major collectors of the twentieth century,but when he saw fit,he dubbed on his own melodeon,to traditional recordings he had collected,yet was not prepared to collect from a fine revival singer, because he was pretending to be a traditional singer,this is what prompted my earlier remarks about the nonsense of tradional /revival labels,and my remark about quality being important.'
Cap'n,
Don't wish to add to your present problems, but your posting is half digested gibberish.
Peter Kennedy had his students play accompaniments to some of the songs he collected, these are what he dubbed on to the recordings.
He did not, to my knowledge, claim to be a traditional singer - I don't think I ever heard him sing - did he?
He did not 'collect' from revival singers (I thought you didn't believe there were such things!) because his job was to collect from traditional singers,as was Lomax's, Mike Yates' Charles Parker's, Philip Donnellan's, Pat Mackenzies and mine, and all the other collectors who have chosen to do such work.
I think you would do well to heed that age-old advice - when you're in a hole, stop digging!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: BB
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:52 PM

I understand what you're saying, Dick, but I don't believe that you are necessarily correct. Many academics when marking degree dissertations are looking at the academic rigour with which they are researched and presented, rather than the actual content - this can be deduced from the arguments put forward, the extent of the bibliography, all sorts of things, within a general subject framework - we don't know exactly what department Cristian is part of. My tutors knew sufficent about music generally to know whether what I said made sense, and this may well be true of the tutors within Cristian's college - in fact, as it's Dartington, they almost undoubtedly do.

Thanks for the PM, by the way - no problem.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:17 PM

Long may packie continue ! I have a hoard of fond memories of him over the years !

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 01:30 PM

Aside and thread drift.

Packie is 'lucky to be alive' and I confess it was me and three friends I lived with that nearly killed him.

He stayed with us years ago - when I lived in Hull - and after the folk club we were having a laugh and a drink, and Packie began to tell us all sorts of stories about in particular his cattle smuggling days but other items he took across the border. Those who have spent time with him will know the stuff I mean.

"And" he said "what do you lads do for a living", pausing to take a swig of his drink.

We took great delight in telling him we were all customs officers!!

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Dave Hunt
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:06 AM

Folkiedave said - 'How do you know these people you are recommending have time to help a student? A lot of them would if they have time - but a lot of them don't have time. Pete Seeger is a very old man and should definitely left alone'

And Packie Byrne is 90 on the 18th Feb!
Dave Hunt

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 07:25 AM

yes, your right,I was trying to be helpful,Ishouldnt have suggested it.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM

Dick I accept your gracious apology - but even that is not quite right.

I am suggesting the student doesn't even contact them.

Most of the people you mention are either old or busy or both.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:21 AM

your right folkie dave ,I should have said providing they are prepared to help.APOLOGIES
BB on reflection I would like to rephrase,.
That to my mind that devalues the status of degrees,apologies. not your degree.
knowing you reasonably well, i,m sure your degree was well written and that you deserved your degree.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 06:06 AM

Dick,

my advice is to seek out the following people, who should be able to advise you properly.Pete Seeger,Doc rowe,Vic Gammon,Frank Hamilton,Martin Carthy,Nicolas Carolan,Packie Byrne,louis killeen,RoyHarris

How do you know these people you are recommending have time to help a student? A lot of them would if they have time - but a lot of them don't have time. Pete Seeger is a very old man and should definitely left alone.

One of the others you mention I know is extremely busy writing a book. One already has enough students of his own thank you. I know one of the others is extremely busy too.

And whilst your opinion can always be expressed freely - it doesn't mean to say you are right.

On this occasion Christian, take no notice......but you knew that already I suspect.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:42 AM

cristian,traditional folk music,has been passed on in many different ways,.
Patrick Kelly[west clare fiddler]made the famous remark that the worst thing that happened to the clare fiddle style,were the recordings of sligo fiddler Micheal Coleman on 78 RPM.,
Traditional music performed by revival singers/musicians and traditional singers /musicians has been passed on by the radio[80 years] ,television[60 years]recordings[at least80years]mobile phones[5 years].
very few musician[be they traditional or revival] in the western world,have not learned a song/ tune,from one of these sources.
Fred Jordan originally had a repertoire,that he learned from his family,he then expanded his repertoire from the folk revival.
Bob Blake[at first thought to be a tradional singer] ,a fine singer,was evasive about his sources,and it would appear he was actually a revival singer.,Peter Kennedy[Clearly thought this mattered]but was prepared to dub on his own revival work on to existing traditional recordings.
Peter Kennedy was one of the major collectors of the twentieth century,but when he saw fit,he dubbed on his own melodeon,to traditional recordings he had collected,yet was not prepared to collect from a fine revival singer, because he was pretending to be a traditional singer,this is what prompted my earlier remarks about the nonsense of tradional /revival labels,and my remark about quality being important.
quality should also be important when it comes to a dissertation,but to assess quality/knowledge of the subject,the tutor /lecturer,should know at least as much as the student.
If a student writes a dissertation about house construction,it would be expected that the tutor understood pythagoras theorem[to enable the house to be built square].
BB wrote a dissertation on the Character and Charecteristics of folk song,She admits her tutor knew less than her on the subject,to my mind that devalues the status of her degree.
my advice is to seek out the following people, who should be able to advise you properly.Pete Seeger,Doc rowe,Vic Gammon,Frank Hamilton,Martin Carthy,Nicolas Carolan,Packie Byrne,louis killeen,RoyHarris

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 08:06 PM

Hi Cristian

         " As part of my music degree i have decided to research to what extent text based representation encourages the transmission of Folk traditions."

Sam Hinton, the folklorist and performer from San Diego made an interesting point. The ballad Barbara Allen was out of circulation until it was revived in print.

" In other words, i would like to hear from folk musicians, concerning how they would go about sourcing a song... "

I think that the more you are exposed to the actual music, the more you understand what it is in the song when you see it in print. There is a musical tradition to be followed and absorbed in some way. I try to go to the root of the song as much as I am able. Sometimes through the history although that has to be cross-referenced as there are a lot of vague ideas that may not be correct. but my inclination is to find someone who has an understanding as a performer and absorb their approach...but not imitate it exactly.



" Another area i would be interested in hearing about is in how far it is acceptable or necessary to adapt and interpret a traditional song in your own way..."

The idea of "acceptable" would require an opinionated criteria which can be supported by some academics....but the word doesn't fit well in folk music.


"whether it is predominantly the words and the melody that convey the folk tradition and how important harmony is."

A song requires all of these things. Harmony is a problem for many because some like it simple and others can tolerate more complexity. The melody can be a vehicle for a story which by itself may be uneventful. A great tune can have a bowlderized lyric that's incomprehensible. A great simple tune can be as important as a complicated melody.
Answer, it depends.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

"When I use a word, it means exactly what I intend it to mean, it's a matter of who is to be the master, no more, no less."

Alice in Wonderland.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:32 PM

Richard Bridge,yes I do mean it,music is the most important thing in my life.
I did not say analysis was not important,that is how you choose to interpret my words.

Subject: RE: Research project: Traditional Folk music
From: BB
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:26 PM

Cristian states that *he* has decided to research..., etc., not that he has been told to research...

It isn't actually essential for a tutor or whoever marks the dissertation to know the subject inside out - many years ago when I was studying music, my final dissertation had to be something about music between 1800 and 1900, I think. Seeing that most of the collectors were doing the rounds in the early 1900s, it seemed logical to me that the songs therefore existed between the stated dates, so mine was on, if I remember rightly, 'The Character and Characteristics of Folk Song'. The tutor who marked it said that it was very interesting, and that he learnt a lot! I doubt that folk song, in the sense that Sharp, Lloyd, etc. talked about it, had ever entered his consciousness! But he was looking at how it was put together academically, and that, presumably, is what Cristian's tutor is going to be looking for primarily.

Barbara