BS: Foxhunting Banned.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:36 PM

True Metchosin -

There is nothing sadder than entering a chicken coop the morning after a visit from a mink. A good dog will keep the predator away. No need to chase after the mink with a horse or a pack of hounds. I doubt very much if a fox hunt is really the answer to predator control.

Its a blood sport. Those that partake need to have their heads adjusted.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:00 PM

The quick kill justification was used here with regard to housecats and while one quick flick by a single terrier can dispatch a rat in seconds, it has been my experience with a pack of hounds that any body part of an animal it can reach will do in the frenzy and on occasion things do not go exactly as anticipated.

Sloppy predator control, regarding farmers is a different matter and IMO should be regarded as a separte issue, not a justification. Perhaps better education of farmers and more trained animal control or conservation officers would improve the situation, especially in areas where large populations of opportunistic foxes are demed to be causing serious economic damage to those in the poultry industry. It certainly would add a few more gainfully employed bodies. Live trapping is an option, as is better security for the animals in ones care.

I live in an area with a healthy population of raccoon and mink, (neither species providing the side benefit of rodent control), which can and do cause problems regarding poultry, if the opportunity presents itself. The key word is opportunity. The occasional loss of a bird that I have experienced here, has been due to my own stupidity and was not the fault of the predators basic instinct.

If the true appeal of the hunt is the riding, I cannot for the life of me see what substantial difference it should make when the route is determined by hounds pursuing a predetermined set trail using a drag.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM

"Folkiedave, a fox will be dead within a minute of being seized by a hound.
What happens afterwards hardly matters".

Well.........to the fox it does.

Anyway let me know when you are off hunting again lads/lasses. Since you aren't insured I need to stay well clear of both you and your vehicles.

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

Time flies when your having fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:10 PM

Folkiedave
"I see, Now it is about suffering"
Suffering and cruelty was my expressed concern in each of my posts.
Read them.
As I said, that thousands of rural families are sustained is a bonus.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 11:51 AM

Folkiedave, a fox will be dead within a minute of being seized by a hound.
What happens afterwards hardly matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

FolkieDave, a fox with its jaw shot off takes about three days to die. I've seen it happen. I've also seen (and smelled) foxes with shattered legs and gangrenous wounds that most have caused a slow and agonosing death.
Trouble is, most farmers use a shotgun to shoot foxes, not a rifle, and that doesn't kill quickly or cleanly. Very few of them are going to get out a rifle powerful enough to despatch a fox and carry it around with them day to day. The result is that most DIY fox control is pretty inhumane. Good keepers will go lamping with a proper rifle and account for many foxes, but they are looking after their own game, and tend not to roam around helping out local farmers because they've already got enough to do.
To shoot a running beast with a rifle takes a lot of skill, which most people don't have. The Welsh packs near me shoot their foxes, and the marksmen are superb shots. It also helps to have hilly and sparsely populated country so the terrain can cope with rounds that miss rather than having them travel for maybe half a mile - letting off rifle rounds in flat territory like Norfolk or Lincolnshire is asking for trouble!
I'm afraid I can't agree with Peter's view of working class hunters as a bunch of rednecks. The packs I've come across (away from the Country Life-reading belt) are as varied as folkies (and sometimes one and the same - there are at least three non-toffs who hunt who post here on Mudcat).

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 12:05 AM

Second time in quite a short while that I'm in tune with DougR. Dangerous territory.

The guest who mentioned the Blencathra/Saddleback hunt was spot on. This is far removed from the toff-led image usually projected, and if there were an acceptable face of fox-hunting, this would be it. But I don't think there is, as I have just made plain in my longest-ever Mudcat post. (Takes for ever to load if you haven't got broadband, but worth teh wait of course....)

What kind of idiot Laura is I can't imagine. Prefers drag hunting to foxhunting but now finds herself compelled to go foxhunting before it is illegal, even though she is not yet up to it, and even though the ban will no doubt result in more drag meets (by which time she might also be more competent on a horse). Won't go deerhunting because of a Disney cartoon character, but couldn't care less whether foxes are hunted to the death or not, even though she finds foxes (the real things, this time) cute and cuddly (which they're not). Maybe when she grows up, she'll come back to this nonsense and try to make sense of it. But with any luck she'll get to do that foxhunt for which she isn't ready but has to do in protest; hit a ditch while gaily yelling Tally-ho, and break her neck. I just wouldn't want the horse to get hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:46 PM

dianavan, training doesn't have to be gruesome at all, one can use bottled scent on a drag and reward and young hounds soon learn from the older dogs as well.

Unfortunately, at one time, some dickheads involved in this kind of "sport" in this country found the realism of using a live animal (any old housecat will do) far more exhilarating, especially with a dust up and a bit of blood and guts as their reward. (The dogs themselves were just as excited and pleased with a terrific run and a pat, dust up or not, a lot more sensible than a lot of humans in most cases.)

It was also a very stupid way to train, because, particularly in the case of cougars, you don't want your hounds too nonchalant about approaching a supersized cat, as you will quite possibly end up with a lot of vet bills or one or two very expensive dead dogs. Even a large raccoon can inflict some pretty deep wounds and scars by hanging on to one dog's nose while another dog is simultaneously pulling on its tail, in the opposite direction.

Conservation officers here still require the use of hounds to track cougars that are causing problems on sheep farms or have strayed into residential areas. And if you think getting a good shot off in the comparatively open terrain of the UK is difficult, try using a tranquilizer gun in the bush here. Those involved here become very adept.

I'm not at all familiar with how they train hounds in the UK for fox hunting and its been many years since I've had any close contact with the cougar hunting fraternity here, but human nature being what it is, I'd consider myself very naive to think that abuses and animal cruelty have been entirely eliminated from the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:00 PM

Excuse me, but I thought I said, and said quite strongly, that I am NOT in favor of fox hunting as it has been traditionally done in England.

If the fox is a problem, shoot it or trap it and release it far away.

If you can't shoot well, get someone who can. If you object to killing an animal, live trap the critter and either remove it or have it removed to a remote area.

I am someone who has hunted and who hopes to, perhaps, someday, maybe, go hunting again. If I do that AND I have the chance to kill an animal for food I will do so as humanely as is in my power -- with one shot if at all possible. Anything less degrades both the animal and myself.

Tearing an animal to pieces with dogs is NOT hunting as I know it. (Neither, for that matter, are some of the things I'm seen done by...I can't dignify them by calling them "hunters").

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 08:53 PM

I would like to know how the dogs (in England) are trained to chase the fox.

I once visited some shirt-tail relatives that raised hounds. Training those animals was gruesome.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:55 PM

Might seem strange but I am not against horse riding - nor have I ever met or even heard of anyone who was.

I have an idea. Why not go to some country area - look for a prominent landmark - let's say a steeple - and then have a "chase" or race towards it. Here's an idea....call it "steeplechasing".

"A fox is a difficult target for a one shot kill.

Not in Scotland it seems....

"A fox with its jaw shot away would escape". How long to die?

No idea...tell me....and at the same time tell me how often it has happened.

"The fox will be controlled..." well eliminated really as you wanted when it was vermin and not just a creature for your so-called sport....

"so banning hunting results in MORE SUFFERING NOT LESS, otherwise I would support it".

I see. So now it is about suffering. Tell me the difference between being shot and being torn to pieces by hounds. From a fox's point of view of course.

And for those still following this argument - at this point Keith will introduce the problem of chickens torn apart by foxes. Because he really loves animals....except for foxes of course.

"That it sustains some rural families is a bonus".

Shame that all the Scottish experience which banned fox hunting in 2002 tells a totally different story. Real, genuine, proven experience. Like I keep on saying based on proven fact. It results in less suffering and more foxes being killed.

Don't let the facts spoil a good story.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM

I don't recall anything negative being said about horseriding in itself. There were a few whinges (one coming from me) about hunters riding over private property without asking permission, and becoming quite belligerent when challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:40 PM

If you can't shoot worth a damn, don't use a rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:20 PM

No many good marksmen in the UK, eh? Pity.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM

Keith - I agree.
Metchosin - sorry. it may have been on the other thread - the fight the ban thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:03 PM

A fox is a difficult target for a one shot kill.
A fox with its jaw shot away would escape. How long to die?
A leg shot through? Gut shot?
The fox will be controlled, so banning hunting results in MORE SUFFERING NOT LESS, otherwise I would support it.
That it sustains some rural families is a bonus.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 05:14 PM

Laura, I didn't observe anyone particularly incensed with people on horseback on this thread. As one who owns horses and who has racked up hundreds and hundreds of miles on horseback, I think I would have picked up on any overt prejudice.

However, regarding hunts using just dogs and feet, from my experience, as noted above, it does provide a particularly visceral view of a terrified animal being torn apart, as well as a providing a greater opportunity to be splattered with blood and gore, that one may not have the pleasure of experiencing from a higher vantage point.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 04:11 PM

I agree with Colyn!

but Folkiedave - there are about ten hunts in south somerset alone!

And you people who say you don't like the fact that the people are on horses - how do you feel about the hunts that just use dogs and feet? Out of curiosity.

And Les from Hull - the question you raise is the very point I have been trying to make. You don't need anybody on horseback - people just go for the fun of the riding. Next time you see a hunt out ask how many of them actually care if they catch anything or not - I bet most of them don't. And if there were more drag hunts around the country I bet people would support them more - it just needs some more people to set up.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

In sheep-farming areas, like Wales and the Fells, most farmers welcome the hunt. The trouble is, the popular perception of hunting comes from the packs in wealthy areas where they're stuffed woth tossers and wankers who give hunting a bad name. Much like 4x4 drivers.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:42 PM

I have heard many a farmer complain about the destruction that the hunt causes when they ride rough-shod across the land, some farmers told me they have shot the odd fox but would prefer to shoot the arrogant huntspeople, a much bigger pest than the fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

It was once argued too, that eliminating the tradition of using slave labour would cause economic hardship for those associated with it.

Attempting to justify a blood sport by claiming that others condone or ignore the inhumane treatment of animals associated with food production is a bit of a red herring. It would seem far more rational to advocate for the humane treatment and/or control of all animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:43 AM

thats alright because I'm going to take up fox racing, of course it may LOOK similar, but it is very different honest. Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:38 AM

If hunting with dogs is so efficient, why do they need the 30 or 40 people with horses? Nobody has ever suggested that we keep the hunting with dogs (because it's so efficient) but limit the hunters to 3 or 4. I wonder why? Perhaps the argument has something to do with ritual animal cruelty.

The same argument applies to drag hunting, surely. It's no fun if there's no animal cruelty involved.

If there's a problem with wounded and suffering foxes, get some people who can shoot straight, and stop shooting at the armour-plated ones. You'll be telling me next that hunts have never encouraged foxes to breed and multiply so they'll have something to hunt.

Good songs though.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 11:32 AM

So fox hunting is not really about vermin control - its really about rural employment.

Well, when fox hunting was banned in Scotland there were ten hunts. Now there are ten hunts and twice as many foxes killed. Sounds to me that is an excellent argument for the Scottish system.

As for who benefits from a traditional pursuit being banned......

Well.....the same people who benefited when badger-baiting, bear-baiting, bull-running etc were banned. They were traditional sports too. As no doubt was mammoth-hunting at one time. People become civilized. It really is that simple.

Some refuse to do so. Fine. I am looking forward to the day when the hunts go out hunting without any insurance.

And I am still waiting for someone to explain the bit of the countryside I don't understand.....

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: IanC
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

Kendall

Guess how many chickens in the US are raised extensibly (i.e. out in the open).

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:37 AM

Folkiedave,
Again, efficiency does not matter.
These people do it for nothing, and provide much needed rural employment.
Suffering matters.
Efficient or not the farmers who want the fox controlled are content.
Who gains by criminalising a traditional persuit? Not the fox.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:10 AM

We raise chickens by the billions here, we have more foxes than Britain, yet they are not a problem. I wonder why?

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:05 AM

Well said, Keith!
How many of those who are celebrating the end of fox-hunting will quite happily sit down to a meal of battery-farmed eggs and intensively-reared bacon? Modern commercial food production imposes infinitely more unspeakable cruelty than any sport, yet we condone it every time we go the the supermarket.
The thought for nearly 750 hours of parliamentary time wasted on this piece of knee-jerk legislation when there are far more important things to deal with makes my blood boil. Still throw a sop to the deluded bunny-huggers and maybe they'll forgive some of the other iniquities of this government.
As for habitat and conservation; half the coverts and hedges in England would have been grubbed out two generations ago if it wasn't for the hunting and shooting they afford. As a keen shot, habitat management is in my interest, and I recall that half the time I spent out with my fowling mates was actually on work parties repairing dykes, sluices and sea defences to ensure that the habitat was preserved.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 07:02 AM

Just so that Keith A understands clearly - the current method of fox hunting as vermin control has been shown to be incredibly inefficient.

It has been shown to be inefficient not by guess work or what might happen to a fox when it is shot, but by real life experience over the past two years in a country not a million miles from here.

Now if Keith wants to defend fox hunting as vermin control IMHO it is not a very good argument and it is proven not to be a very good argument. Frankly I would have more respect if he admitted that they get a cheap thrill from chasing foxes with hounds.

And since, as a person from a large city I am one of those often told I am someone who doesn't understand the countryside, please explain which bit(s)I don't understand........

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 06:02 AM

Having banned foxhunting can protestors now turn their attention to another cruel sport? This sport involves the followers inflicting injury on other humans and even killing each other. It totally disrupts town centres and involves an inordinate amount of police time and manpower. The followers cause chaos whenever they meet, instilling fear and trepidation in the public. The damage they leave behind costs the local taxpayers a fortune to clear up. The parking difficulties caused to local residents by these followers has to be seen to be believed.
The participants are an overpaid and overprivileged elite class who consider themselves above the law. They delight in appearing on television to extol their own virtues, although generally they are scarcely able to enunciate a coherent sentence.
It appears that any protestor at a meeting may be brutalised by the followers, even though that protestor is only stating a difference of opinion.
These persecuted individuals are Human Beings, sentient creatures just like other animals.
Can we please now ban FOOTBALL ?
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Metchosin
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:53 AM

I'm still not convinced that allowing hounds to run down and then tear up an animal is particularly more humane than a bullet. Having participated in hunts and witnessed hounds on occasion overtaking racoons before they could tree, made a bullet seem pretty blessed to me, by comparison. Perhaps it was because I was young.

Then again, there are those that get their rocks off watching roosters armed with blades on their spurs, rip each other apart.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:18 AM

Why don`t they do what they done in Tasmania [Van Diemans Land]?.    When the English colonists arrived to turn the Island into a prison colony they discovered the scaricty of any animal resembling a fox, so they turned to hunting and chasing the native population as an alternitive, as a result the first successful elimination of a race of people ensued.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM

Efficiency is not the point.
A hunted fox dies or escapes. Shot foxes are often wounded but escape to a lingering agonising death.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 06:47 PM

"Fox hunting. Not for meat or pelt, but vermin control".

Since fox hunting was banned in Scotland two years ago twice as many foxes have been killed. It does seem to me therefore that the current style of fox hunting where the fox is torn to pieces by dogs is singularly inefficient.

In fact the largest numbers of foxes are urban foxes, we have plenty is Sheffield the fifth largest city in England for example. Never seen a hunt down here though......

And when fox hunters go out from now on can I suggest you avoid them like the plague. None will carry any sort of insurance of course.......you can't get insurance for illegal activities.

Best regards,

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Ooh-Aah2
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 05:16 PM

Keith A you hit the nail on the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 04:14 PM

Richard: I'm in Canada. What did he say, SVP? Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM

I am more interested at the moment about the constitutional law arguments and how Donaldson MR can have said what he apparently did about the Parliament Acts.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:37 PM

Keith and Rapaire - You are both absolutely right. Habitat destruction is the biggest problem for wildlife.

It is, however, a mindset, that creates the problem. People have to learn that the web of life includes all animals. Anyone who participates in a blood sport is a long way from understanding the importance of habitat.

Hopefully, banning fox hunting will raise the consciousness of people who think that killing is just innocent fun.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 01:07 PM

Damned straight, KAoH.

The single biggest threat to wildlife (and our life) is habitat destruction. Not hunting, not radioactive waste, but houses and shopping malls and factories and parking lots.

Your house. My house.

If you want to do good for wildlife, buy an old house and renovate it (mine was built in 1968, but there are those #@!$%! mini-mansions further up the hill -- badly constructed (in my opinion), way overpriced, and merely something to further some fool's ego). Buy a house in town, tear it down if you want and rebuild on the lot.

Sorry. I see habitat destruction every day around here and it's one of my hot buttons.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 12:18 PM

Fox hunting. Not for meat or pelt, but vermin control.

If cruelty is your concern, gassing and shooting cause more suffering.
The fox population will not be allowed to increase.

You may not approve the sport, but by what right do you judge?

Real ecology is not like Beatrice Potter. A spared fox will not die peacefully in its bed. A lingering death by starvation or by scavengers when weakened is all that awaits them, and life is short.

If you really care about animal suffering, this is a distraction.
Campaign against habitat destruction that is starving so many thousands that whole species are becoming endangered.
Campaign against industrialised livestock production.
Campaign against the torment caused by the export of live animals, and barbaric slaughter methods.
All these things matter.
Fox hunting does not.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 11:40 AM

The arrogance of the pseudoaristocracy can be dealt with. A nice hedge of blackthorn on top of an earthern wall, or better still, rose bushes. What I'm suggesting is something that won't hurt the horse or the dogs.

And you ain't ridin' if you're doin' that wall jumpin' on top of one of them postage-stamp peices of leather some people call "saddles." You ought to try some real
riding one of these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: *Laura*
Date: 21 Nov 04 - 06:24 AM

It is poachers in Bambi - not hunters.
And I'm not killing - just following. On a horse. The difference - I don't care if we catch anything or not.
As I've said before - I would go drag hunting, but there just aren't any around.
And the foxes and the deer? Just my personal preference. I know how much damage deer can do.
Oh, and the majority of hunts do get permisssion before going across someone else's land. Except the arrogant a**holes who don't - they're giving hunting and hunters a bad name and no one much likes them. Including other hunts, and farmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:28 PM

And then there is my oldest neice. She went deer hunting at 13, and the the boys tried to "gross her out" when they gutted the deer.

There is was, hung up in a shed, the body cavity open and the innards becoming outards, and the boys said, "Come on and see!" And her response was to closely inspect the innards and say, from her heart, "COOOOOOOOL!"

That was what she said to me later when she was describing it. Coooool.

She is now working on a PhD in microbiology.

If you're not willing and able to kill and butcher your own meat, don't eat it. If you're not willing and able to grow your own veggies, don't eat them. In short, if you're not willing and able to feed yourself....

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:53 PM

I did it once. I will never do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 09:51 PM

brucie - Don't gross them out!

Its true though, about doing your own dirty work.

My grandmother almost died when I was 13. She stopped eating sugar and salt but in addition, she refused to eat any meat unless it was killed by one of her sons. Luckily, they were all hunters. She lived until she was past 90.

I learned from her that its O.K. to eat meat but only if you or your family does the dirty work. I've gutted animals and hated it. I've also scraped hides (this is also unpleasant) but I will never understand killing for sport.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

I like deer: the animal, the leather and the meat. We have so damn many of them that they are a hazard on highways and roads in Alberta.

Gutting one takes a little time, especially if you want to keep the hide. The brain is a good thing to rub on the hide when you have it removed because it helps preserve the leather and make the skin more pliable.

Of course, amny people who enjoy their steak have never helped cut the nuts off a young steer--but hey, that's what it takes. Meat doesn't start out in a grocery store plastic tray covered with plastic wrap. Steak once went moo and walked around.

I have always been bothered by folks who don't mind someone else doing the 'dirty' work. There's lots of that goin' around. Not that I think you fox hunters are that way. Let me know how you feel when you are upto your elbows in guts. The odor isn't the best, but it all washes off when ya take a shower. Just like the smell of the fox when it shits after you kill it.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:40 PM

And what, pray tell, is the difference between hunting a fox and hunting a deer? Where we hunt, the deer depredation to the corn can mean the difference between our friends, the owners, making or losing money. True, we don't go out in scarlet jackets and ride jumpers. Normally we wear insulated coveralls, blaze orange vests and hats, heavy boots, and, if we ride at all, we ride "four wheelers" like these. (Usually we walk up and down those hills, but after nine heart bypasses and two minor heart attacks, we make an exception for my brother and others who have had similar troubles.)

I know some people out here in the West who ride horses to hunt. They ride to the campsite, trailing the packhorses and riding. The horses are picketed; the hunters may or may not ride to the hunting area -- those I know usually don't.

As for the prevelance of foxes and deer -- that, I suggest, is in Britain. In the US deer are numerous that some years ago the head of the Schuykill Nature Conservancy in Philadelphia called them "rats with antlers" and others in other places have expressed similar sentiments.

As for the movie "Bambi" -- I think that Walt Disney's credibility in nature films has been thoroughly established. I particularily like, in "Bambi", the statement that Bambi's mother was killed by hunters when, in the original book, she was killed by poachers.

My feelings about Fox Hunting are simple: unless the hunters are ready to chase the critter on foot, they shouldn't be allowed to chase it on horses. And they should have to get written permission to cross the property of someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 07:18 PM

Exactly! If you kill, you're obliged to gut it and skin it. If you don't eat it, at least use the skin and/or fur. Thats how I was raised. Killing for fun is just plain wrong, regardless of your social class.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Foxhunting Banned.
From: Peace
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 06:39 PM

Well, I hope you skin it and keep the pelt. Ever done that? Killin' the easy part. Skinnin' the carcass is a bit more difficult. Do that, then we have something to talk about.