BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM

So what? Hamas is only a small part of the Palestinian people. Hamas would have no power whatever if the Palestinians had basic human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:43 PM

"it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be"

But it IS the intention of Hamas:

""The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."


http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm



It is not really difficult to find such things- like the Israel constitution, the Arab League statements from 1948 and 1967, etc. WHy do some here keep making statements that are not supported by the facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM

Amos,

In 1948, much like when India and Pakistan were formed ( with a good deal of violence) there were about 820,00 Jews driven out of Arab Moslim lands, with what they could carry if that. THEY lost their property and goods. The Israelis asked Moslims to stay ( partially to slow the Arab League armies down) and a number did- the present Arab Moslim populatiopn of Israel shows this 9 the reason i ask about Jews in the Moslim nations). 640,000 Moslims left as refugees, and only Jordan offered then citizenship ( as the Arab Msolim palestinian Homeland) IF they reounced violent conflict against Israel. A number did so, and became Jordanian citizens. The rest were held in camps by the Arab nations and not allowed to settle as citizens.


So any discussion of the Palestnians "right of return" whould be balanced by that greater number of displace Arab Jews, THAT ISRAEL SETTLED.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:22 PM

Egypt does not control the airspace and coastline of Gaza. The Israelis do that, along with controlling Gazans' ability to travel to the West Bank. Israel controls the flow of goods out of Gaza. Gaza would not need any cooperation from Egypt at all if it controlled its own air space and coastline.


The question is not which countries have Jews and which countries have Muslims. Although the above poster persistently tries to suggest that there are no Christian Palestinians remaining in Palestine, there actually are quite a few, and they are suffering just as much because of what the government of Israel is doing as the Muslims are. Palestine is not a Muslim country, and it has never been the intention of the Palestinians that it should be. That's a straw man argument that someone is putting out there to mislead people.

The Palestinians don't have any problem with Jews living in Palestine along side of the rest of the Palestinians, as long as they do it as Palestinians and not as occupiers from Israel. Alternatively, many Palestinians would be content if Israel would complete its annexation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and give everyone living within its borders equal rights of citizenship and exactly the same civil right.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:17 PM

Mainstream Media Not Reporting Israel Follows International Law; Hamas Does Not

By Herb Denenberg, The Bulletin
Published: Monday, January 05, 2009

The easiest way for anyone in the media to get a scoop is to write anything that is fair and balanced and with respect for the truth on the conflict in the Middle East. That's because the mainstream media, such as The New York Times, NBC, Philadelphia Inquirer, etc., take the usual anti-Israel line, and fail to report on anything that might put Israel in a good light. So this is my scoop for today.

---

Ridiculously long non-music copy-paste deleted!
The rules apply to you and Amos, too, Bruce.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:16 PM

"Hamas honored the terms of the cease fire and did not fire rockets during the period of the cease fire"


BULLSHIT!


"Ten Qassam rockets fired into Israel from Gaza
Central Asia News.Net
Tuesday 23rd October, 2007 (Ynet News)

Five Qassam rockets were fired at the southern town of Sderot on Tuesday evening.

One of them hit an apartment building in the city, and several people suffered from shock.

Two additional rockets landed in open areas. The Salah al-Din Brigades, the Popular Resistance Committees' military wing, claimed responsibility for firing the rockets.

In total, more than 10 rockets were launched at Israel from the Gaza Strip on Tuesday. Most of them landed in open areas. One of the rockets hit an area near a strategic facility in Ashkelon's southern industrial zone, another landed near southern kibbutzim, and the others landed near communities in the Sdot Negev regional council, not far from the town of Netivot. "




There were somethiong like 5500 to 6000 rockets launched against the civilian population since Hamas took over- many during the ceasefire that you seem to insist only applies to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

...While Israel Tries to Protect Them

Israeli TV reported that minutes before the targeted killing of a Hamas terrorist in his apartment or home, all the neighbors get a phone call warning them to get out of the area. Some of the defiant ones go to the roof hoping to dissuade the IDF from firing at which point a small, harmless missile is fired to a corner of the roof. This convinces the defiant to get away. Then and only then is the hit performed.

There is no other army in the world that takes such extreme measures to protect noncombatants.

— Channel 10, Israel TV, (January 1, 2009)

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:14 PM

Bruce:

Which 820,000 refugees is that? When/where are you referring to?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:13 PM

CarolC, I really don't have the time to watch an 1 1/2 video, and the sound quality is so poor that I can barely hear it with my PC speakers at full volume.

Please tell me, since Gaza has 2 neighbors, Israel and Egypt. Why is "Israel quite literally starving the Gazans to death" and Egypt isn't? Why can't Egypt open its border crossing and aid its fellow Arabs? Why is this the responsibility of the entity upon which the rulers of Gaza have pledged unending jihad?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:11 PM

I have known several Palestinian families... I grew up across the street from one family. But they were Christian, from the Christian town of Rammallah. Of course, after they were driven out in 1948 ( when Jordan occupied the west Bank) it became a Moslim town, and the west bank was made "Juden-frei".


But that is ok- Jews can be removed,: it is only wrong to treat Moslims that way.


As I have stated, If Israel treated the Moslims anything like the Jews have been treated by the Moslim nations, there would be no Arab population at all, anywhere.

Why do 640,000 Moslim refugees have rights that 820,000 Jewish ones ( just from the Arab nations) are denied?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

Hamas honored the terms of the cease fire and did not fire rockets during the period of the cease fire. After the cease fire expired, and Israel had not honored its obligation under the cease fire, Hamas started firing rockets again.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:04 PM

Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. The blockade of Gaza was in effect long before Hamas took power in Gaza. The blockade was tightened after Hamas' takeover, but it was already in place long before that. That's one of the main reasons Hamas was elected in the first place. The people of Gaza knew from experience that Fatah would not or could not get the blockade ended, so they decided to give Hamas a try to see if they would be successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

Thanks for that C Ham .... having lived and worked in Toronto up until 10 years ago I never met any Palestinians here in Canada ..... I didn't realize there are that many ...... I'm sure given the opportunity many more would if they could would immigrate here ..... it would be good I'm sure ... I currently live in Saint John and there has been an influx of immigrants from the mid-east coming in, small but growing .... enough that there is now a mideast cafe. Never have encountered any hatred or strong animosity towards Israel or towards my own Jewish (part) heritage.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM

"there was no legitimate reason for the blockade of Gaza during the cease fire,"

The blockade was imnposed after the violent takeover of Gaza by Hamas, who proceded to launch attacks ( rockets) against Israel. The ceasefire was supposed to apply to BOTH SIDES, Carol: Please show me any time period when Hamas was NOT launching those rockets. Israel waited several days after HAMAS unilateraly declared the ceasefire over, asking that the rockets be stopped BEFORE the present series of attacks. Hamas chose to continue the rockets, and is still continuing them.

The blood of the innocent civilians on both sides are on Hamas, and their supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:53 PM

I have not expressed an opinion about Israel's current bombing campaign in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM

The blockade of Gaza preceded the takeover of Gaza by Hamas. It effectively started when the Oslo agreement took effect. Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

CarolC,

I can just as easily claim that

"A complete carpet bombing of the launch sites of the rockets are a defensive act in response to Hamas's deliberate targeting of the civilian population of Israel."


Yet please note that Israel is targeting MILITARY targets, and has NOT carpet bombed, as Hamas would have if it had the chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

The cost of the weapons would hardly feed the civilian population of Gaza. The cost of the weapons would not even come close to providing for the basic needs of the people of Gaza. It might feed them for a very short period of time, but it would not sustain them over the long run. And since there was no legitimate reason for the blockade of Gaza during the cease fire, especially since the only people who were effected by the blockade were civilians, and since the government of Israel agreed to end the blockade under the terms of the cease fire, such a blockade was an act of war on the part of the government of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:47 PM

I have met and worked with here in Canada (and some are currently good friends) Jordanians, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese but I have never met any Palestinians.

Can anyone here provide any insight to this as to why?

I'm Jewish, and I know many Palestinians in Canada, both in Toronto, where I live, and in Montreal, where I grew up and still spend much time. I just checked with a Palestinian friend I know through my Jewish-Palestinian dialogue group and she said there are 30,000+ Palestinians in Canada; mostly in major cities like Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

Art ... Gaza has been under Israeli and Egyptian blockade since a violent Hamas takeover in June 2007. The tunnels have helped Hamas stay in power by relieving shortages."

palestinians / egyprions clash at border

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

"They need to be able to earn a living, and to be able to import food that they purchase with the money they earn."

The cost of the rockets and explosives would be more than enough to feed them, if they wanted to feed themselves more than they wanted to kill Jews.

Are you saying they can bring in tons of explosives and arms, and NOT bring in an equal weight of food? Or medicines?

That they can smuggle in fighters to kill ( bith Jews and anyone who does not agree with then, like Fatah) but cannot bring in doctors?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

Hamas would not be firing those rockets if Israel had honored it's obligation under the terms of the cease fire and ended the blockade of Gaza. The rockets are a defensive act in response to Israel's deliberate targeting of the civilian population of Gaza. If the Gazans had the kind of precision weaponry that would allow them to be more precise about whom they target, I'm sure they would be happy to use them against Israeli military targets. Under the circumstances, they are using what they can get.

Maybe the US should provide Hamas with smart weaponry, as we're doing for the Israelis, so Hamas can be more precise about whom their defensive weapons hit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Using area mass bombardment anti-personnel rockets is NOT a form of defense, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:38 PM

Watch the video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. It explains the economics of the situation in Gaza and it shows why it is Israel that is starving the Gazans.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM

Using area mass bombardment anti-personnel rockets is a deliberate targeting of civilians.

Yet Israelis do not have the right to defend themselves, according to CarolC

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

The people of Gaza are too numerous to feed by smuggling food in through tunnels. They need to be able to earn a living, and to be able to import food that they purchase with the money they earn. It is not at all an exaggeration to say that Israel is literally starving the people of Gaza to death.

Starving an entire civilian population is not a form of defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:34 PM

Hamas made a specific decision that Gqzans should eat explosives, not food. THAT is what they brought in throuh the tunnels.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

Gaza has 2 neighbors, Israel and Egypt. Why is "Israel quite literally starving the Gazans to death" and Egypt isn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:33 PM

interesting point BB ...

"I guess Hamas and the Gazans would rather kill Jewish civilians than to feed their own children. "

Which brings us back to that staetment ....

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

"The people of Gaza have a right to defend themselves. "


But you imply that Israel DOES NOT???

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM

" Israel is quite literally starving the Gazans to death."

It seems to me to be a slight exageration, when Jamas has no problem bringing in arms and explosives through the tunnels from EGYPT that GAZA has control over.

I guess Hamas and the Gazans would rather kill Jewish civilians than to feed their own children.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

Watch that video I posted a link to in my 05 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM post in this thread. Hamas resumed the rocket attacks because Israel did not end the blockade of Gaza as it had agreed to do in the terms of the cease fire. Israel is quite literally starving the Gazans to death. Starving an entire population is a deliberate targeting of civilians. The people of Gaza have a right to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:42 PM

"Where's the campaign, the communication, the PR, the diplomacy, the negotiation?"

Hamas Charter:

Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

The recent-term cease fire was repeatedly violated by the firing of literally thousands of potentially lethal rockets across the border of Israel.

Seems to me there is plenty of opprtunity for Palestine to press its case in a more articulate way than firing rockets.

Where's the campaign, the communication, the PR, the diplomacy, the negotiation?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

That argument about people being threatened is much more accurate when applied to the Palestinian response to their total subjugation, ethnic cleansing, and slow starvation at the hands of the Israeli government. The Palestinians have as much right to defend themselves as anyone else in the world. Except in the minds of the people who refuse to see them as human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 01:05 PM

Let's see...a man drags a girl into the bushes at knife point and rapes her. Total time of crime: ten minutes.

When the perp is convicted, he gets ten years in prison.

His lawyer screams that the sentence is disproportionate.

What does he expect, ten minutes in prison?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM

When a people are threatened, they will do anything they have to to avoid being wiped out. When the US government adopted a plan to eradicate the plains Indians they fought back with barbaric methods. We did the same thing in WW2 with the atom bomb, and Israel is doing it to the Arabs.

Natural selection in action. Survival of the fittest if you will.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 11:52 AM

There is no reason for the world community to take in all of the Palestinians who are currently living in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. There is no reason why they shouldn't stay right where they are and be allowed to live in freedom. What is being done to them is a crime, and it's this crime that the world community should be working to stop, not the ability of the Palestinians to continue to be Palestinians. Once the last Palestinian is gone, Israel will have successfully committed a total genocide of an entire people.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:59 AM

> Ham, what's your point? I had nothing to do with what others did to the natives. All I know is, I was born here and have lived here all my life, (Up until now). If you know your history, you know that the natives fought like hell to repel the invaders, as they damn well had every right to.One of my ancestors was killed by a white man while defending an Indian.

Now, some of my ancestors came from Scandinavia, others from France and still others from England. Which place should I choose to "go back to" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardebruce
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:49 AM

"but it should be within its pre 1967 territory"

Why 1967? Because that was when the Arab nations lost the most territory?

WHy not 1948? or 1923? Or even 1921, before TransJordan was broken off as the Arab Moslim Homeland???


http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


Why should Israel accept the loss of Jeruiselum, which thay had no access to before 1967 ( when under Arab control) and which the Arabs have had access to since then under Israeli control?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 10:19 AM

"Meir talks about Arabs, not Palestinians.

In her mind, there were no Palestinians as a distinct nation (ethnic group), but only Arabs living in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (and Israel, of course). Palestinians (and Palestine) for her were only an Arab propaganda invention.

And, on that point, she was correct. After Islam was established, the Arabs sent their people into most of their known world to defeat their enemies, take their land, and spread Islam.

Spain (and much of southern Europ)e were victims, not just the Jewish people who have owned the Holy Land (aka: Palistine) for thousands of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 09:01 AM

The Golda Meir quote is a bit disputed and turns up in various forms, but the variants quoted here are all wrong in a vital point. If one knows Meir and history, it is very obvious she never would have phrased it that way:

Meir talks about Arabs, not Palestinians.

In her mind, there were no Palestinians as a distinct nation (ethnic group), but only Arabs living in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon (and Israel, of course). Palestinians (and Palestine) for her were only an Arab propaganda invention.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:39 AM

clarification ... "I do think many, many would take on such an opportunity." .... I meant Palestinians would take the opportunity to immigrate.

BTW .... in regards to this Israeli / Palestinian issue ... in recent separate discussions with a Syrian and Jordanian .. both have replied in some retrospect that the Palestinians are caught in between a rock and a hard place ... the Hamas and Israel .... both have nothing good at all to say about the Hamas ... basically they felt they are thugs, who reign way to harshly and terrorize their own people ... both implied that they understand Israel's stance on self defence but do admit that it is heavy handed in responding .... the Jordanian blames the U.S. for most of the conflict. ... just posting this to provide a non news network mid-eastern view of what the hell is going on.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 08:19 AM

One of the tragedies in the Palestenian issue is why hasn't the international community (and yes that includes neigbouring mid-east countries) opened their immigration doors (en mass) to the Palestinians. This would certainly allow them to escape their hell hole of an existance. I do think many, many would take on such an opportunity.

I have met and worked with here in Canada (and some are currently good friends) Jordanians, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese but I have never met any Palestinians.

Can anyone here provide any insight to this as to why?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 07:22 AM

If the UN suddenly took the state of Maine and gave it to, say Russia, or some other enemy, you can bet I would be pissed!And, I would never accept it.

Then why don't you go back to the land of your ancestors and return Maine to the Native Americans from whom it was stolen?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 03:51 AM

Maybe in a few years time we will see television programmes, films and books called "The Diary of Anne in Gaza".

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 09 - 12:08 AM

If we were currently being kicked off the land of our ancestors, I think we would all fight it. Hell, even if we were being kicked off the land our ancestors stole from the indigenous peoples (in the case of those of us who live in such places), we would fight that, too. All of us.

It's not about whether or not their ancestors got kicked out of their lands. It's about the people who are there now who are currently being kicked off their lands. And anyone who says they wouldn't fight the kind of treatment the Palestinians are receiving at the hands of the Israeli government is a liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

Yes ... right on Sandy !

"The Past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

the opening sentence from the novel The Go Between by by L.P.Hartley

I have always liked that line and as I say, move on from the past, the future is about getting to know and understand better.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:55 PM

If the UN suddenly took the state of Maine and gave it to, say Russia, or some other enemy, you can bet I would be pissed!And, I would never accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 08:31 PM

You nailed it Sandy.