BS: Israel Moves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM

You're right Nickhere it didn't broadcast the appeal to deflect from the charges of bias, didn't work though I believe that they are going to have to issue the report eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM

"A closed mind is a closed mind"

This is why I have a 'closed mind' in relation to the so-called cease fires.

From Jerusalem Post today:
"IAF aircraft struck in the Gaza Strip town of Khan Yunis Friday afternoon, Palestinian medical officials said,AFTER [emphasis mine] two Kassam rockets were earlier fired at southern Israel."

You may read the entire article at jpost.com, or a similar one at haaretz.com

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

I thought the BBC was one of the stations that refused to broadcast the Palestine Emergency appeal?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 01:31 AM

Guest Emma B, now would that be the same BBC News Service that even as we post away here on Mudcat is spending hundreds of thousands of pounds trying its best to suppress a report that states quite clearly that its reporting of the Palestine/Israeli conflict is totally biased against Israel??

According to the latest round in court, thankfully they are losing. The man who has taken then to court has stated that he is prepared to take it as far as the Freedom Of Information Act can go. The tough choice for the BBC is of course that the more they fight it the guiltier they look.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:55 AM

"Israel says no more

February 12, 2009

Article from: The Australian

HAMAS, the terrorist organisation that masquerades as the Government of Gaza, was the deciding factor in Israel's election yesterday. A majority of people who went to the polls voted for parties who want to take Hamas on. Likud, the party of former prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, came a close second with 27 seats being surprisingly, if marginally, outperformed by Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni's Kadima party with 28. But with the support of religious and nationalist parties, Mr Netanyahu has a good chance of a majority in the 120-member parliament.

The result is a rebuff for Kadima, the party founded by former prime minister Ariel Sharon for the express purpose of securing a mandate for his unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. Certainly other factors were involved. Kadima was damaged by corruption scandals last year involving its leader, outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Nor is Ms Lipni an advocate of peace at any price, backing last month's intervention in Gaza. But she is marked by two years of stop- start peace talks in her time as foreign minister and by the way the evacuation of Gaza did not stop Hamas rocket attacks against Israel. And so, 16 years on since the 1993 Oslo accords established the basis for a two-state solution, Israelis have had enough of a negotiating process in which extremists on the other side take whatever concessions are on offer and then use terrorism to extract more. The recent Gaza incursion signalled that Israelis feel abandoned by the West since Middle East peace went off the US agenda in the past couple of years and that they have decided to look after themselves. This election result reinforces the message.

Inevitably, enemies of the Jewish state, including some Australians, will argue the election is another example of Israeli aggression. Hamas has already condemned Israelis for voting for extremists. This is a bit rich coming from an organisation whose official position is that Israel should not exist. But the way Hamas will receive a sympathetic hearing reflects the assumption that the democratically elected Government of Israel is guilty of war crimes, most recently in Gaza, for defending its citizens against terrorist attack. In withdrawing from the enclave, Israel went a long way to giving Hamas what it said it wanted, but the attacks did not stop.

Even if Hamas had agreed to negotiate a permanent peace -- not a half-baked ceasefire -- after last month's Israeli incursion into Gaza, Ms Livni would have been able to argue that there was a reason to keep talking. But by continuing to lob the occasional rocket across the border and encouraging its international allies to condemn Israel, Hamas helped many voters make up their minds. Whoever finally forms the next government, it is clear appeasement is off the Israeli agenda. The choice is now with Hamas. Like the Fatah Government of the West Bank, Hamas can accept reality and deal with Israel. The resulting peace is not perfect but it does mean people on the West Bank have some semblance of normal life. Alternatively, Hamas can keep on sniping from within the almost entirely built-up area of Gaza and blaming the Israelis for the civilian casualties when they shoot back. The absence of support for Hamas from Muslim states in the Middle East, excepting the extremist Government of Iran, demonstrates what governments all over the region think Hamas should do. But whatever it decides, it now knows what will happen next time it starts a fight across the frontier."

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 12:01 AM

"but may I please plead with people who post on this thread to listen to some of the first independent journalists reports to emerge from Gaza"

Would these be the same journalists who protested so loudly about Hamas rocket attacks into Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 10:25 PM

Closed mind? I think not. Historical analysis. I predicted the last cease fire would last 2 months, I think. It lasted 8 or 10 days.

Hamas and Hezbullah (not currently involved) typically uses ceasefires to re-arm and prepare for the next round of attacking Israel. Why would I expect this one to be any different? More importantly, why would Israel? In 18 months Hamas can get really strong...assuming the cease fire lasted that long.

As the saying goes, "Fool me once, your bad; fool me twice, my bad." Israel has let itself be fooled too many times.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Emma B
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:42 PM

I provided a quick blue clicky link to the BBC World Service report from Gaza but it was immediately deleted - better luck this time

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 09:28 PM

A closed mind is a closed mind - if you have a mind to listen to an independent journalist's report from Gaza this is the link (I hope!)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/worldservice/meta/tx/assignment?nbram=1&nbwm=1&size=au&lang=en-ws&bgc=003399&ls=p14&ls=3539

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:32 PM

"Israel, in turn, insisted that any cease-fire must include an end to militants firing rockets from Gaza into southern Israel and a halt to Hamas arms smuggling."

Yeah, like that's gonna happen. 2 weeks tops.

All of these deals are Hamas wants X; Hamas wants Y; Hamas wants Z.
Israel give Hamas X, Y & Z. What does Hamas give Israel...a stronger Hamas.

If Hamas wants peace, let them rewrite their charter recognizing the the right of Israel to exist, and let them begin normal international relations with Israel. Anything else is BullShit.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Emma B
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:27 PM

I don't feel 'at ease' posting to mudcat anymore but may I please plead with people who post on this thread to listen to some of the first independent journalists reports to emerge from Gaza

Assignment
The BBC's Middle East Editor Jeremy Bowen travels to Gaza, to ask where the recent conflict leaves the region's future.

this is on the World Service at this moment - please listen on the listen again facility

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:21 PM

Teribus, maybe you should ask John on the Sunset Coast, who wrote "Hamas subsequently has made extremely poor choices vis-a-vis Israel" or just simply read his post instead.

As for electing tossers, looks the Israeli electorate has been taking its lead from Hamas, so that puts both of them on a slow learning curve.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:25 PM

"There's no doubt that Hamas have made poor choices post-election regarding violence etc.,"

What do you mean "poor choices" Nickhere??? No choices have been made by Hamas what they have done and the path that they have chosen is writ clear and large in their founding Charter.

It has been the Palestinian people who have made poor choices in electing the tossers to provide them with some form of Goverment which of course they NEVER will.

&0 years down the track!! - Slow learning curve, or what??

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:36 PM

"Hamas Will Announce 18-Month Truce With Israel, AFP Reports


By Mark Schoifet

Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Hamas has accepted an 18-month truce with Israel in the Gaza Strip in a deal brokered by Egypt, Agence France-Presse reported, citing the Egyptian state news agency MENA.

The deal will be announced within 48 hours, AFP said. MENA based its report on comments from Mussa Abu Marzuk, Hamas's deputy leader, according to AFP. Hamas accepted the truce in exchange for Israel's lifting of its blockade of Gaza, AFP cited the official as saying.

Last Updated: February 12, 2009 16:17 EST"

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:26 PM

Was speaking again with a buddy in the Golan. He and the people there are VERY happy about the possibility of peace. Best news I've had in days--what you posted Bruce. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

As long as Hamas can deliver on it's side-

After the UN truce in Lebanon, and the failure to hold Hezboallah to the terms, ANY violations will just give the Israeli hardliners reason to hit Gaza a lot harder than this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:09 PM

GREAT news, BB.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 05:07 PM

It may be too late, with the election, but...

"Hamas leaders centered its truce demands on a reopening of the tiny coastal territory's borders, which have been largely sealed by Egypt and Israel since Hamas gunmen seized control in Gaza in 2007.

Israel, in turn, insisted that any cease-fire must include an end to militants firing rockets from Gaza into southern Israel and a halt to Hamas arms smuggling."








Report: Hamas says agreement on long-term truce
      
Salah Nasrawi, Associated Press Writer – 3 mins ago

CAIRO – The deputy leader of Hamas said Thursday night that the Islamic militant group agreed to a long-term truce with Israel for the Gaza Strip, the official Egyptian news agency reported.

Moussa Abu Marzouk told MENA that Egypt's government, which has been mediating between Hamas and Israel, would announce the truce in two days after consulting with other Palestinian factions.

In Jerusalem, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office said the Israeli government had no comment on the report.

Earlier in the day, Egyptian and Hamas officials reported progress in truce talks, which included Hamas' strongman from Gaza, Mahmoud Zahar, and Egypt's top mediator, intelligence chief Omar Suleiman.

Egyptian diplomats have been working as go-betweens to try to arrange a truce deal between Hamas and Israel to solidify a cease-fire that ended Israel's devastating 22-day offensive in Gaza last month. Hamas and Israel refuse to negotiate directly.

Marzouk told MENA that the Egyptian-brokered deal it agreed to calls for Israel to reopen six border crossings into the Gaza Strip.

Hamas leaders centered its truce demands on a reopening of the tiny coastal territory's borders, which have been largely sealed by Egypt and Israel since Hamas gunmen seized control in Gaza in 2007.

Israel, in turn, insisted that any cease-fire must include an end to militants firing rockets from Gaza into southern Israel and a halt to Hamas arms smuggling.

In talking to MENA, Marzouk did not discuss details. But earlier Thursday he told Al-Jazeera television that Egypt had previously agreed to work with Israel to forge new arrangements for reopening Gaza's crossing into Egypt.

Marzouk said a deal for the release of a captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit held in Gaza would be negotiated later, according to MENA.

Egypt has been trying to broker a prisoner exchange between Israel and Hamas. Hamas is holding Shalit, who was abducted more than two years ago in a cross-border raid from Gaza into southern Israel.

Besides mediating a truce for Gaza, Egypt also is trying to bring Hamas and its Palestinian rival, President Mahmoud Abbas, into talks on reconciling and forming a unity government that can move ahead with peace negotiations with Israel. Egypt hopes to host a reconciliation conference Feb. 22.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:07 PM

Yes, the Israeli election results are a nightmare. That's because of the proportional representation system (that the NDP and Greens want to bring to Canada) that makes the major parties beholden to single issue parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:54 PM

PS

The election results in Israel are a nightmare. Got what you want, right? Now, watch out because the shit IS going to hit the fan, big time. Bloody sad day for both Israelis and its neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM

IMO, when Israel sees no alternative to their extermination as a country or a people, the genie will come out of the box and there will be little but ash and glass in the mid-East. This consistent horseshit from people about controlling Israel--think about it. You are bitching because Israel hit Hamas back first. Now it's a fucking problem. But it was NOT a problem when Hamas was (and still is) firing rockets into Israel. Gimme a break. Seems some folks are anti-war only when it's Israel, and not when it's Hamas. Spare us the crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

Hamas and Fatah have never needed Israel's or the U.S.'s help at fighting amongst themselves. They're both quite adept at killing Palestinians.

Barry Finn seems to think its the U.S. support of Israel that feeds the conflict.

Well, the Palestinian Authority (now controlled by Fatah) could not exist without U.S. support either.

And Hamas is nothing but puppets of Iran.

Thankfully, it's Barack Obama, not Barry Finn, who is president of the United States, and Hillary Clinton, not CarolC, who is secretary of state.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:52 PM

Hamas & Fatah were both seen as detrimental by the Israeli's & the US, we only backed one against the other when they were both on the scene. We played them against themselves, divide & conquer. Take one of the players out of the game & they may unify. Of course that wouldn't e allowed by the Israeli's either.

Now what would happen if the US just walked away from the nightmare?
Are we prolonging the strife, would Israel be able to stand up alone, not against the Palestinians but alone in the Mid-East.
I believe we should no longer support, fund or back Israel until they bend. Don't ask "how far"

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:01 PM

OOPs! Sorry, forgot to add, I did indeed get your PM, thanks, and will settle down to have a listen to that as soon as I get an half hour or hour or so with no-one knocking on the door. Will get back to you asap.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM

There's no doubt that Hamas have made poor choices post-election regarding violence etc.,

I don't know what the conditions on the ground are exactly - but having been usurped by Fatah after the elections may have made Hamas jumpy and paranoid and fuelled further violence, plus being isolated by a large chunk of the world has only helped push them further to extremism.

With the swing to the right in Israel, it looks like extremism is going to set the tone even further on both sides. Hamas have contributed to that swing, but the swing will contribute to more extremism from Hamas or Islamic Jihad and so on in a cycle of upping the ante.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM

Nickhere:

Hamas did indeed win the Gaza election. Jimmy Carter says it was fair, and Jimmie Carter is an honorable man. People have noted that Adolf Hitler was the fairly elected Chancellor of Germany...he wasn't. His Nazi Party fomented violence and rioting such that no non-Nazi government could succeed. He was asked, as a last resort, by von Hindenbrg in hopes to bring some 'normalcy' to Germany. I see some parallels, even if the honorable Carter doesn't.

But even allowing that the elections were 100% uncoercive and fair, Hamas subsequently has made extremely poor choices vis-a-vis Israel, vis-a-vis investing as between guns and butter, and vis-a-vis Fatah/PA.

Their insistant rocketing of Israel has been, probably, the largest single factor in the rightward turn of the Israeli elections of the other day. Even Egypt is acting against Hamas.


PS: Did you get my PM?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

I thought Hamas won the democratic elections, fair and square, but this particular expression of democracy was unacceptable to both Israel and other so-called western governments because the Palestinians had chosen the wrong representatives to lead them. Then Fatah, the party that had lost the election mainly because most Palestinians regarded it as hopelessly corrupt, were encouraged to seize power in what amounted to a coup d'Etat. They did, ousting the democratically-elected Hamas. Hamas, undermined in the West Bank then seized power in Gaza to prevent Fatah from seizing power there too.

Whether or not you agree with Hamas' politics, how fast history has been re-written

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:40 PM

"Hamas is an extremist group but the only representative that the Palestinian people have at present. The other representative groups have failed."

Hamas murderously and violently over threw Fatah in Gaza. Fatah sucessfully represents the majority of Palestinians because the majority lives in the West Bank.

Do you have any facts to present that state otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM

I'm sorry Stringsinger, but you're wrong. Most of the Palestinians live in the West Bank, not Gaza. There, Fatah remains in control of the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas' authority, by the way, is recognized by no government in the world execpt Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM

Amnesty may be correct but this does not excuse the invasion by Israel.

Hamas is an extremist group but the only representative that the Palestinian people have
at present. The other representative groups have failed.

Fatah is obsolete now because they no longer represent the Palestinian people.

It's similar to Castro's Cuba. Castro took extreme measures in the Sierra Maestra. He
was roundly criticized for it.

Was it the best way?   Probably not but Israel and Ochoa/Batista produced extreme reactions due to their brutality.


Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: C. Ham
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 01:38 PM

Amnesty International: Hamas harmed Palestinians

February 11, 2009

LONDON (JTA) -- Amnesty International issued a report detailing Hamas violence against Palestinians during Israel's military operation in the Gaza Strip.

In its report, the human rights organization states that at least two dozen men were shot dead by Hamas gunmen, and many more were kneecapped or otherwise tortured during and after Israel's military operation. It also confirms media reports that some victims had been executed in hospitals where they were being treated for wounds.

Amnesty International sent a fact-finding team to the Gaza Strip once the cease-fire was in force.

Responding to the report, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said, "Maybe some of them were killed because they were acting against the population, against the resistance."

Barhoum added that certain assassinations, like that of the Hamas interior minister, Said Siyam, could not have been carried out without intelligence provided by spies.

However, human rights organizations documented cases of execution and the torture of supporters of Fatah, the party led by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

In one such incident detailed in the report, Hamas forces took in for questioning Osama Atallah, a teacher and public supporter of Fatah. The following day a local hospital called his family to say he was in critical condition. He later died.

Fatah officials said Atallah was punished "because of his public and continued criticism of the performance of the Hamas militias in Gaza." They accused Hamas of "severely torturing and then strangling" Atallah.

Hamas officially endorses the killing of collaborators, but denies allegations that it executes political rivals.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:34 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,Alan - PM
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

"The Israeli's left Gaza to the Palestinians" Catch yourself on man, the Jews STOLE the bloody land in the first place, not hard to see where you come from. Go biol your head of something.

Jews were present in Gaza from antiquity until the 1929 Palestine riots, when Arabs forced the Jews to leave Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:29 PM

To all you genocide accusers, does this sound like Genocide?

Speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, April 20, 2007 by Dr. Ahmad Bahar of Hamas, the acting head of the Palestinian Legislative Council:

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation. Make us victorious over the infidels. Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one."

Watch Video of this speech

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:27 PM

Bruce - "The recent rocket fire brings to more than 35 the number of Qassam rockets, mortars and Grad missiles that have been fired at Israel since Israel and Hamas agreed to separate cease-fires on January 21"

Though the article opens with 'palestinian militants' the above line tends to give the impression, by naming no other group, that Hamas were responsible for the latest barrage. Israeli intelligence have actually been blaming Islamic Jihad and another group whose name escapes me at present. This is significant in that it demonstrates that even were Hamas to modify their line and 'come in from the cold' there are other groups not so inclined and probably there always will be unless certain injustices on the ground are sorted out as best as possible. Therefore we can expect the cycle of violence to continue ad nauseum.

John - thanks for the quote, I rather like it. I did mention that I wouldn't be in any rush to hear Irving, personally. Just he should feel free to speak without fear of jail, as is presently the case in some countries. I dislike that kind of 'thought totalitarianism'. I should emphasize that i would not take that freedom to speak to include actual outright racism obviously - I don't think anyone should be free to stand up and shout 'let's heng all dem dar n****rs' for example.

Thanks also for the list - I learn something new everyday. I was sorry to see my own country was not included. I will have to start doing something about that - I doubt if our politicians are even aware of it. But that'll have to change!

You say though that it's unfair to hold Israel up to a higher standard than 90% of the UN. I don't know about that. I expect ALL those countries to recognize the genocide. I would expect Israel to be especially sensitive to it, given its own history, just as in Ireland we are more empathetic (usually) with colonized countries, having had that experience ourselves. I'd find it rather annoying if ireland was to so quickly forget its past that it applauded colonization elsewhere. I would just expect Israel to recognize the Armenian genocide in the same way as those countries that already have, no less no more. It is bizarre to find they don't and makes me think that genocide-recognition might be more of a political expedient than an ideal.

I have to say that not only worries me but makes me feel sick, not to put too fine a point on it. If recognition of genocide becomes the slave of political expediency rather than an absolute ideal, then we quickly descend into the realm where this or that genocide can be justified or forgotten about for this or that special reason. In other words, there then becomes no such thing as genocide as such, rather a case-by-case basis where it can be justified if it suits current needs. History teaches us that fashions change, borders change and if there are no absolute abhorrence of these things, we can be sure they will happen again and again.

You also pointed out many African countries don't recognize it as a genocide. I don't know why that is, but here's a few possibilities:

Some of these countries may have genocides of their own to deal with (e.g Rwanda) so they might be ignoring the subject so as to avoid questions being asked in their own quarter. Some of these countries seem to be still headed by tin pot dictators or armed fighting factions who have no problem with genocide as a means to an end and so are hardly likely to care about one that happened far away years ago. Some of these countries body politic might not have even heard of the genocide in Armenia. I know that sounds hard to imagine but I (who am interested enough in world affairs to read and follow the news) didn't know anything about it until a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

Israel is on a path will accomplish nothing. They can't bully their way to victory because the nature of their argument is not and will not be accepted by Palestinians. The only approach they seem to take is genocide. Fortunately, their are cooler heads in Israel today who disagree with the siege of Gaza. Not all Israelis agree with the "moving in". Read Ha'aretz.

The cease-fire needs to be brokered by honest and non-partisan leaders throughout the world. The world needs to see that this violence is not in the best interest of the world community and could trigger another world war. I hope that Obama might be one of the leaders but I fear he is too closely tied with the current administration in Israel to be objective.

Instead of demonizing Hamas, they need to be seen as a violent knee-jerk reaction to an
unyielding and oppressive Israeli regime by poor Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:11 PM

Nickhere--

In posting to you regarding David Irving on February 7, I quoted (actually misquoted) Hubert Humphrey. I have found the exact quote.

"The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously."

So I have now created the obverse corollary to his exquisite observation, "The right to free speech does not mean the right to be heard." By that I mean no one is obligated to give a person the platform to speak, and anyone within earshot of speech has the right to leave the speaker speaking to himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: heatherblether
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:56 AM

The brazeness of those zionists who talk of free speech but who who condone or defend the slaughter in Gaza leaves me quite astonished!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:06 AM

"But Bruce, and yourself and many others then fall into the same trap: freedom of speech is ok as long as you agree with the content."


This is false, as I have always advocated freedom of speech for all sides of issues.


"The principle of free thought is not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought we hate. "
US Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in United States v. Schwimmer (1929).

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:25 AM

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel launched air strikes against a number of targets in Gaza Monday to retaliate against Palestinian militants who have fired a "barrage" of rockets inside the Jewish state in recent days, the military said.


Israel says its air strikes in Gaza are aimed at stopping rocket attacks into the south of the country.

The targets in Monday's air strikes included two Hamas outposts in southern and northern Gaza, the Israel Defense Forces said.

The IDF said militants fired two rockets at Israel Sunday. The recent rocket fire brings to more than 35 the number of Qassam rockets, mortars and Grad missiles that have been fired at Israel since Israel and Hamas agreed to separate cease-fires on January 21.

Rockets fired from a Grad have a longer range than the crude, home-made Qassams that Palestinian militants in Gaza fire more frequently. Militants have used Grads strike farther into Israel.

Israel and Hamas, the Islamic militant group that has ruled Gaza since 2007, declared separate, tentative cease-fires following more than three weeks of fighting in Gaza.

Israel launched the attack on Hamas in Gaza on December 27 with the stated aim of ending rocket attacks on southern Israel.

The air strikes come one day before Israelis are due to go to the polls in a national election that is expected to be dominated by the issue of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:23 AM

Gaza militant dies in clash as cease-fire tarries
         
Ibrahim Barzak, Associated Press Writer – 5 mins ago AP –

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – A Palestinian fighter died in a clash with Israeli troops and Israeli aircraft attacked two targets in Gaza on Monday as mediators tried to broker a long-term cease-fire a day before Israel holds national elections.

The militant group Islamic Jihad said in a statement that one of its fighters was killed overnight in an Israeli airstrike. The Israeli military said troops spotted an armed militant trying to cross the Gaza-Israel border late Sunday and opened fire, after which a bomb belt he was wearing detonated.

Israeli aircraft struck two militant positions in the territory early Monday, in what the military said was retaliation for rocket fire from Gaza on Sunday. No injuries were reported in the aerial attacks.

Riad Malki, foreign minister in the moderate Palestinian government based in the West Bank, charged Monday that Hamas was trying to influence the outcome of Tuesday's Israeli elections by continuing to fire rockets into southern Israel. The moderate Palestinian government is headed by President Mahmoud Abbas, a rival of Gaza's Hamas rulers.

Hamas doesn't want to see a pro-peace government elected because it would pursue a political deal with Abbas, and the Islamic militant group "wants instability in the region," Malki said during a visit to Poland.

Abbas' government is "very much worried" that the rocket attacks might "really push Israeli public opinion and the voters to vote for an anti-peace government," he told reporters in Warsaw.

...

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:00 AM

CarolC

you claim that we should believe UN employees (Gaza) unless we have proof otherwise, and NOT believe Israelis unless we have proof that what they say is true(Jenin).

This is another example of you showing bigotry against Israelis.


EITHER BOTH OR NEITHER should be believed without proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:10 PM

What happened in Hama in 1982?

Then followed several weeks of torture and mass executions of suspected rebel sympathizers, killing many thousands, known as the Hama Massacre. Estimates of casualties vary from an estimated 7000 to 35,000 people killed, including about 1000 soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:36 AM

About those bodies buried under rubble. If the sanitary conditions continue to decline & bodies can't be recovered & interned properly & with out the nessary medical flow of supplies with closed borders the onslaught of diease that can follow an aftermath of this sort & size will continue the "REIGN" of destruction that the Israeli's will in the future not only be noted & tried for but it will also follow & curse them. In IMHO, they have opened the doors of hell & will never find a way back to closing them before they them selves get scorched.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:12 AM

Nickhere -- There is one other point I neglected in my last post in my haste to leave for dinner with Mrs. Coast.

As of December, 2008 only 20 countries in the world have formally recognized the Armenian Genocide. They are per Wikipedia:

    * Argentina (2 laws, 3 Resolutions
    * Canada (1996, 2002, 2004
    * Chile
    * Cyprus
    * France (1998, 2000, 2001, 2006)
    * Germany
    * Greece
    * Italy
    * Lithuania
    * Lebanon
    * Netherlands
    * Poland
    * Russia
    * Slovakia
    * Sweden
    * Switzerland
    * Uruguay (1965, 2004)
    * Vatican City
    * Venezuela

You will note that only a few European countries are included, but not the UK. The former Soviet republics are not included, save only Russia and Lithuania. Most of South America and all of Central America is missing. No African country recognizes the Genocide. And only one Arab and/or Islamic country (Lebanon) recognizes the Armenian Genocide.

"Israel and Denmark believe that the genocide recognition should be discussed by historians not politicians."

I think it is disingenuous of you, or anybody, to hold Israel to a standard higher than about 90% of United Nations countries, especially in light of their precarious position in the Middle East and the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:35 PM

Hamas, Hezbollah & their Molochian Divine

Feb 06, 2009 at 08:05:27 AM PST
Elias Bejjani Canadian-Lebanese Human Rights activist, journalist and political commentator

In Arabic contemporary history, there are four disastrous, pointless, destructive, and Don Quixote wars:

In 1967 President Jamal Abdel Nasser led the Egyptians to a suicide war with Israel.

In 2003 Iraq's president Saddam Hussein's delusions of grandiose and stubbornness provided the USA with the needed pretext to invade and Liberate his country.

In 2006 Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, General Secretary for the Terrorist Shiite militia provoked Israel after his men crossed the Lebanese-Israeli border to kill and kidnap a number of Israeli soldiers. Israel responded by a massive military assault on Lebanon lasted for 30 days.

In 2008 Khaled Meshaal, the overall leader of Hamas replicated Nasrallah's uncalculated provocations and instigated a catastrophic war with Israel, Its cost to the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip was 1350 dead, more then 6000 injured and three billion dollars of loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:33 PM

I wouldn't invite Irving to speak, or bother going to hear him speak, personally. Some people might feel inclined to go along if only to keep tabs on what he's saying and so dispute him.

I did indeed notice what you wrote about "f I had my druthers..." and I wholeheartedly admire your sentiment in the matter.

Regarding Turkey - the issue so seems to be idealism v. practicality. I know politicians have to make compromises in order to keep the boat afloat. But what price are people willing to pay in order to do this? I think it's foolish to allow Turkey to get away so easily with denying its own dark past. A spade is a spade so to speak, and if a country is allowed to call it something else, or pretend it didn't happen, for political expediency, it's only a matter of time before this policy comes home to haunt those who subscribe to it. It also leaves Israel - through the actions of its government - or zionists generally, open to charges of duplicity / double standards, which can hardly help their cause.

While the politicians have their needs, we lose sight of overarching ideals at our own peril as a species.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:12 PM

About the only thing I agree with you about, Nickhere, is that David Irving should be legally allowed to write and to deny the Holocaust. That doesn't mean that any private groups are obligated to invite him to speak or even to have an audience. As Hubert Humphrey said, "The right to freedom of speech doesn't mean the right to be heard." [I may be a little off on the quote, but that's the essence].

I've already noted when I wrote earlier, "If I had my druthers, those laws [holocaust denial] wouldn't exist. But those countries have their own guilt to deal with regarding the Holocaust."

Countries are not individuals who have the luxury of noting evils that have taken place in the last century. Countries have to make compromises--and they all do for reasons we might not admire--which are felt are in the current best interest of the country.

Turkey is the only country in the Middle East with which Israel has anything like normalized relations; it would be foolish of Israel to jeopardize that.

Even the US has not formally recognized the Armenian Genocide, although we've come close a couple of times. It has been, or will be introduced again by Adam Schiff (D) of California, a Jew. It will likely pass during this Congress.

Turkey will almost surely acknowledge the genocide, or something like it, sooner rather than later, so they can become part of the EU. They will make that deal when they finally realize it is in their best interest to do so.

Well, this has certainly been a lot of thread creep.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:24 PM

A body buried under tonnes of rubble may be just as effectively buried as one under two or three feet of soil. Do you know for certain a body buried in such a manner can be located by smell? Or that all the bodies mentioned by Carol can be located by smell?

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:15 PM

Erm Nickhere, I would venture to guess that the dead bodies buried in your locale are actually "buried" as opposed to being just loosely, and hapazardly covered in the remains of a demolished building. There is a distinction of which I am sure you are aware. Stop being obtuse and please respond to points being made to counter propaganda and myth. If someone wants to yell about numbers being killed, then let them produce bodies in numbers that are verifiable. If they cannot do so then their arguement is decidedly weak.

Subject: RE: BS: Israel Moves in.
From: Nickhere
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM

Um. Teribus, Carol wrote that bodies were BURIED under rubble / houses etc., Our local cemetery is full of dead bodies, all of whom no doubt stank for a while. But we don't smell any of them since they are.... well, buried. That's not to say that ALL the bodies buried under rubble won't be olofactor-ily noticed, but it might explain why some aren't.