BS: E Milliband was unelectable

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:37 AM

Senior Labour officials saying there is an issue is hard evidence that there is an issue Rag.

E.g. one of my recent Guardian quotes
"Labour leadership: infiltration shambles puts vote at risk, says Lord McConnell, Former Scottish first minister "


"With the contenders set for an emergency meeting to discuss efforts to weed out infiltrators,"

"More than 120,000 people have paid £3 to take part in the vote, along with more than 189,000 members of unions and other affiliates, swelling the electorate to more than 600,000.

According to Newsnight reports, more than 3,000 voters have been rejected, though Labour said on Friday the figure was half that number.
The first wave of rejections, known as #Labourpurge on social media, included removing members who had been Conservative, Green and Socialist Worker party candidates, and those expressing support or raising money for rival parties."

"Leaked meeting notes from the party's procedure committee show it has been inundated and the system is overstretched, with the New Statesman reporting that almost every member of Labour HQ's slimmed-down post-election staff has been drafted in to help wade through the roll of new supporters.
Murad Gassanly, a councillor in Pimlico, south London, told Newsnight he estimated 20% of supporters who had joined the local branch were "dubious", with evidence of them supporting other parties found on Google and social media."

"We are also concerned that, given the party's limited resources and the effort required to investigate applicants, this could result in the integrity of the contest being called into question, and the outcome subject to legal challenge."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/22/labour-leadership-infiltration-shambles-lord-mcconnell

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:31 AM

You have copied articles but they and you have not provided any EVIDENCE nor have they or you provided FACTS. Inuendo, gossip, suppositions by the bucketload but nothing concrete. Until you or them can provide anything else I will treat the with extreme caution.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:19 AM

Steve, the Labour party expelled them.
The Labour party obviously did not see them (you Steve) as Labour.
The Labour Party now objects to people like you infiltrating to elect a leader that the existing party does not want.
The election was intended for supporters of the Labour Party.
The far left were not invited

Rag,
Professor you have been asked repeatedly for evidence of "entryism" you have failed to produce any

I have produced reports, from Guardian and other reputable sources, that it is regarded as a serious issue by the Labour Party.

Jim,
"Filthy lie Jim."
Yeah - sure it is !!!

It is. Vindictive and malicious.
I have never, ever used, "extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed"
You have no answer to what I say, so you make up shit against me.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 07:09 AM

"Steve, Militant Tendency did infiltrate Labour, and were expelled.
They were not Labour. They had extreme views and values that were not those of Labour."

Their views and values are immaterial in the current context of this discussion. And they were Labour. The fact is that Militant consisted of Labour Party members and were not infiltrators. They didn't just spring up when Derek Hatton was around, you know. You can't infiltrate something that you're already in. They may have been a group within a group, but that's no different from the Fabian Society or Labour Friends Of Israel or the 1922 Committee or the Monday Club. The use of "infiltrate" or "entryism" is a well-known right-wing ploy for smearing those on the left of the party. It's no surprise that they enjoy pride of place in your personal lexicon, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:54 AM

"Filthy lie Jim."
Yeah - sure it is !!!
You have even told us that it was wrong to expose the BNP claims of entryism into the Labour Party - now there's a Freudian slip, if ever there was one - god alone knows what excuse you are going to come up for with that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:46 AM

Professor you have been asked repeatedly for evidence of "entryism" you have failed to produce any.

You have attempted, as is your want, to change the subject by introducing an irrelevant piece from decades ago.

I was going to use one of your pet sayings but I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:39 AM

extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed

Filthy lie Jim.
I never have, while you just linked to BNP!
I quoted Straw, Labour Minister; Cryer, Labour MP; Ahmed, Labour politician and peer, and Alibhai Brown, left wing writer and journalist.

Rag, you queried two of my statements, one historic and one current.
I provided an archive Guardian piece about the historic one, and up to date Guardian and other pieces on the current one.

Steve, Militant Tendency did infiltrate Labour, and were expelled.
They were not Labour. They had extreme views and values that were not those of Labour.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:01 AM

I'm somewhat mystified by references to Militant "infiltrating" Labour, or their being accused of entryism. To infiltrate or enter, first of all you need to be outside looking in. That was not true of Militant, which consisted of Labour Party members. The accusation may, however, be levelled fairly at Tories who join Labour in order to vote for Corbyn. Lefties now joining the party - well there's a conundrum. The Labour Party has been the natural home of non-revolutionary left-wingers in the UK and it seems odd to be accusing such people of entryism. Rallying round would be more like it, I reckon. I've never been a member, but I am generally of that persuasion, so suppose I'd joined last month in order to play a part in the election. Would that make me an infiltrator or entryist? I'd like to suggest that these terms have been usurped by the right-wing media and used pejoratively to highlight (yet again, tediously) a mythical sinister left-wing side of Labour. If the history of Labour in recent decades has taught us anything, it's that the only truly sinister aspect of the party is right-wing Blairism.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:36 AM

"Will you give an example?"
You don't really want me to reopen all those extreme Islamophobic sites which you useed to prove your cultural theory and get this thread closed, do you?
No - thought not.
"I did not complain about left infiltration, I just referred to it."
You used it and continue to do so
Now you are suggesting that it is wrong to quote the BNP's claim to have infiltrated the Labour Party - ie implicate them with the left ignore the extreme right - par for the course I say.
The left were harried out of the labour party or left of their own accord when it went "New Labour" under Blair - in alliance with the Tories, it has failed Britain abysmally - Oil Wars, recessions, bankers sprees, political corruption, hardship homelessness, whittling away of the rights of working people while massively increasing teh gap between the haves and have-nots - all products of Labour, Liberal, Tory co-operation.
They have shown themselves totally unfit to govern.
It's about time the Labour party was put back into the hands of the people who created it to see if they can make a better job of it.
No more you and me here Keith - you are up to your own "I win" tricks
Respond to the state of things rather than trawling for quotes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:18 AM

The same Guardian articles that said there was no evidence remember.

"Burnham said Mann's allegations about so-called entryism were not helpful and he had no evidence of entryism on any scale. If Mann had any evidence, he should produce it, Burnham added"

You now start referring to something that happened in the 80's & early 90's

That's more than your 20 year cut off point in other threads and has sweet FA to do with the current election.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM

Guardian,
"The process began in 1983 when the five members of Militant's editorial board were expelled (from Labour Party). In 1986 a further nine went, including Derek Hatton, the Liverpool council deputy leader, Tony Mulhearn, the chairman of the Liverpool district Labour party, Ian Lowes, the leader of the powerful GMB No. 5 branch in Liverpool city council, and Richard Venton, the Militant Merseyside spokesman. In 1987 three Militants were expelled, in 1988 the pace picked up with 29 thrown out, in 1990 a total of 34 were expelled and, in the six months to June this year, a further 26 had lost their party cards. Since then a further six from Tower Hamlets, East London, have been thrown out, making a grand total to date of 125.

The expulsions affected areas as far apart as Stevenage, St Helens, Cardiff Central, Islywn, East Berkshire, Cumbernauld and Kilsyth, Southwark, Eddisbury and Newcastle East. The single biggest expulsion from one constituency came last year when eight Militant supporters were ousted in Glasgow Cathcart.

Yesterday's agreed plans to start the process of disciplining a further 62, and possibly as many as 140 more, represents a shift of gear. However, this must be set against Militant claims - albeit unprovable - of between 2,000 to 3,000 supporters inside the party."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/16/militant-derek-hatton-labour-party-1991

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:59 AM

Rag.
SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power.

Remember Militant Tendency in the eighties?


Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn.

I linked to Guardian and other sources who did say that.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:32 AM

If you are going to be insulting, wouldn't you be better to let us know who you are/

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 04:10 AM

"SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power. Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn."

Facts to back up a statement like this for a start Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 03:57 AM

Jim,
the ideas you put up here are extreme right.

Completely untrue Jim.
Will you give an example?
No.
It is a lie

the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn

Untrue AGAIN Jim!
I did not complain about left infiltration, I just referred to it.
And I had referred to infiltration from the right long before!

The difference was it went unchallenged and uncommented on.
No-one demanded evidence and made an issue of it.

Rag,
What are you on about now?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:49 PM

The old slogan "no enemy on the left" has not always been true. But there are occasions when it helps clear the mind, and it gives the lie to talk about entryism from the Greens and the rest, and shows up the hypocrisy of the pre-election expressions of antagonism to the prospect of recognising the SNP as allies.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:18 PM

just to say i am a left infiltrator who has voted for jeremy corbyn and will join the party on monday. i have been waiting for 40 years to work for a labour party that is socialist. of course, it may well go horribly wrong - but you have to try eh?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:55 PM

BNP/ SNP :0)... "Should have gone to specsavers"...sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:31 PM

I'm still waiting for the "facts" professor. You know the one's about entryism that you were adamant about.

Come on tell me all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:04 PM

"Just pointing out the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn - The Daily Mail, The Sun and the BNP - theee bedfellows"

Absolute rubbish Jim, I would have expected better from you.

Of course the "left" is infiltrating Labour....They're not daft, the first chance they have had to get their ideas across for fifty years.

Of course a few Tory voters are joining the Labour Party to help Jeremy be elected it's called tactics and all Parties do it....The Tories quite rightly think that in the short term they shall have the field to themselves.
How the hell do you work out that the SNP don't want Jeremy elected?
A split Party and Labour in disarray would ensure a huge SNP victory in the Scottish Elections. The SNP Don't want Cooper or Burnham elected. (trust me)

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 03:38 PM

More like a pillowfight really. Good knockabout stuff, most of the time. The press coverage has been rather nastier at times, I suspect. Which has probably actually helped firm up the Corbyn vote.

I can't see the Blair lot joining the LidDems, or being welcomed if they tried. If they migrate to another party it would have to be the Tories. More likely would be to set up a seperate group of their own. But I think they are more likely to sit on their hands and try to freeze out Jeremy Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 03:32 PM

"Not mine Jim."
Yup - sure is - don't come much righter
"I voted Labour in the Blair years."
Don't care - the ideas you put up here are extreme right.
"I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did."
Just pointing out the illogicality of your argument in complaining that the left is infiltrating labour - and your ignoring the real shape of the opposition to Corbyn - The Daily Mail, The Sun and the BNP - theee bedfellows..
Please dont be crude in your attemps to extract yourself - or to avoid the point
The right is infiltrating Labour- The Labour party is the natural home of the left until the feller you voted for in the Blair years.   
Respond to the facts and stop waffling.
THE RIGHT HAS ATTEMPTED TO INTERFERE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS OF ELECTING
A LABOUR LEADER and you are ignoring that fact and attempting to blame the left
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM

GSS, it's maybe no big deal that you don't know how to spell Miliband, but please say where you think Ed has suggested how people should vote in the leadership election.

One thing's certain: the Labour Party will be praying for a decisive result. If it's close, legal challenges will be almost inevitable (though not instigated by any of the candidates). The election process has been a total clusterfuck.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 02:30 PM

Once again you support the extreme right point of view

Not mine Jim.
I do not put extreme right views because I have none.
I am centre/centre right, like most people in England.
I voted Labour in the Blair years.



I would never link to a BNP site as Jim just did.
I linked to Guardian.
Shame on you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 12:25 PM

The last thing we need is narrow minded fools who do not realise the whole of society will be involved in the change, not just a few woolly minded soft lefties.

Try to convince people not browbeat them, do you not think it would be a good thing for Labour to ditch the Blairanistas, or are you a trickle down socialist?
Although Keith and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, he is almost always right when debating you people, because your ideology is based on myth.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 12:07 PM

"On this issue Keith is correct, bow out gracefully and stop obfuscating."
Once again you support the extreme right point of view and ignore the fact that the right have been interfering in this election sincs day one - Socialism needs such socialists like Troy needed a Wooden Horse
Keith is always right -- as right as it gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 11:25 AM

On this issue Keith is correct, bow out gracefully and stop obfuscating.


The only thing that matters in the meantime is that JC is elected leader and the old Blairite wing splits off and joins the Liberals, where they belong.
Jeremy will lead a socialist Labour Party which will include all sectors of socialist opinion.
In saying that, it will take PR and several elections if a socialist system is ever to be introduced.
Whereever we are coming from on the political spectrum, there is simply no way that this wasteful and ecologically unsustainable system can carry on into another century.....all shades of political opinion must be made to realise that.....the days of the great economic powers must surely be coming to an end.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 11:23 AM

This has been the most interfered-with election by non members I can ever remember
The right-wing press have launched a scurrilous campaign to demonise Corbyn - the Mail and the Times being the two worst - each day, the Times has run an-anti Corbyn article - last week he was depicted as 'Freddie' from Nightmare on Elm Street warning what would happen "if you didn't wake up".
Within the Labour Party, the right have barred members from standing for election because they "don't share our values"
Politics in Britain is now firmly in the hands of the right, thanks to Labour selling out its principles in order to hold office - sod the electorate - sod principles - keep the tories in power with undemocratic deals and coalitions.
There is no evidence to suggest an infiltration by the left - I wish to Christ there were, then perhaps the disillusioned electorate would be given a proper democratic choice.
If people genuinely object to interference in the democratic process, why not complain about press interference and right-wing political bias - that might bring the people who have walked away from parliamentary politics in disgust back
Infiltration of the Labour Party
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 10:58 AM

Steve,
. You appear to be scaremongering in order to vilify the left.

Hardly Steve.
My statement was just,
"SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power.
Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn."

They were said to be.
No scaremongering from me.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 10:55 AM

Rag,
You told us that the 26th July article was outdated and now you are using it again.

I did not.

Where is the evidence, where has Burham accepted that entryism is an issue, give us facts.

If he first needed evidence, and then he did not, it is a reasonable assumption that he found some.

Now a question for you.
Why is "You lose" childish, if "Heh Heh. You're sussed" is not?
And, I was not "sussed."
The quote was out of date and irrelevant weeks before this thread even started.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 09:33 AM

The fact that something is "commonly known, widely known and reported" does not actually mean it is true.

Clearly there has been entryism from Conservatives, though whether that was to vote for Corbyn or against is unclear. There have also been cases on people who have recently been candidates of othe parties who signed, which an readonably be termed entryism, though of course such people could still quite truthfully have claimed tyat they support the aims and principles of the Labour Party..

But to bar people as being entryists because they have voted for other parties, tactically or because they may have have seen them as better vehicles for the principles of the Labour Party than New Labour, or have expressed such views in public would be going too far.

Anyway, we'll see. Let's hope whatever result there is the margin of votes will be big enough to make all this stuff insignificant, rather than some Bush-Gore voting shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM

You told us that the 26th July article was outdated and now you are using it again.

Where is the evidence, where has Burham accepted that entryism is an issue, give us facts.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:43 AM

So show me an election in which a degree of skulduggery isn't an "issue". The question which you seem unable to address is how big an issue and whether it is capable of affecting the result. You appear to be scaremongering in order to vilify the left.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 08:30 AM

We know that these things go on, but you are choosing to make a big issue of of t

Not at all.
You asked for evidence so I produced it.
When you said it was insufficient, I produced more.
When you said an old piece was inconclusive, I showed that more recent stuff was.

It was you who made an issue of it by expressing doubts and demanding evidence.

Each time I posted I thought it was finished, but you and Rag kept coming back.

Let's drop it.

So give us a link to the article about Burnham having evidence.

In the July article he wanted evidence for entryism.
In the more recent ones, he no longer does. He accepts that entryism is an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:54 AM

So give us a link to the article about Burnham having evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 06:17 AM

I asked you to demonstrate that Labour's "infiltration" issue is somehow out of proportion. We know that these things go on, but you are choosing to make a big issue of of this particular case, for motives known only to yourself (though guessed at by some of us). So is it worse than other cases you've come across (you could check with your historians...)? Is it going to make any difference to the outcome? Or can you find only desperate sources who live in fear of a Corbyn victory?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 05:08 AM

Yes, and I showed that the quote was many weeks out of date.
Burnham was then asking for evidence.
Later he acknowledged the issue. He had his evidence.
You were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:56 AM

I quoted from the same bloody article as you.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 04:37 AM

Rag, that "entryism" and infiltration have been issues in this debacle is common knowledge, widely discussed and reported.

I mentioned it and Steve challenged me on it with your help, but you failed to make a case because you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 09:22 PM

Nobody ever won a General Election without people who hadn't voted for them before changing to vote for them, including many people who had voted for other parties, obviously.

Former Tory MPs have crossed the floor and even become Labour Ministers. And of course Winston Churchill was a Liberal MP before he crossed over and became a Conservative.

Calling people who have backed the Greens or left parties "entryists" is a bit absurd.

Primary elections in the States are often conpletely open affairs - and when Harriet Harman announce this electoral system earlier this year she specifically said that anyone on the electoral roll would be entitled to sign up and vote for the party leader. Of course they moved the goalposts after that.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Ragyytash
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:32 PM

Just as an aside, what assertions have I made. I cannot recall asserting anything.

But I am prepared to be corrected on that.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:16 PM

Professor, you really are childish ........... your expression "you lose" indicates just how very, very juvenile your thinking is.

Most people here would like to like to enhance their knowledge by communicating with other folk.

You, on the other hand, have to WIN. It is quite sad.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 03:05 PM

The Spectator confirms everything else.
I think that I believe BBC, Guardian, Spectator and actual leading Labour figures themselves over unsupported assertions from you!
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:58 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:44 AM

Of course if the Spectator writes it, it MUST be true.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:35 AM

Spectator, 21st August,

"For Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper, entryism is their chief concern and Team Burnham have decided to publicly raise the issue. Michael Dugher, Burnham's campaign chair, has written to Labour general secretary Iain McNico calling for an urgent meeting to discuss what can be done."

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:30 AM

That quote was from the 26th July piece!
Obviously, from the more recent articles and broadcasts, plenty of evidence has emerged.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 09:12 AM

Heheh. Sussed, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:20 AM

"Burnham said Mann's allegations about so-called entryism were not helpful and he had no evidence of entryism on any scale. If Mann had any evidence, he should produce it, Burnham added"

From your Guardian article Professor, you chose to be very selective. Some of us read the whole article and judge accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:05 AM

Panorama was just the day before yesterday.