BS: E Milliband was unelectable

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 08:03 AM

Nothing new to say about it.
You think the infiltration stopped since then?
Why would it?
It ends tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 07:02 AM

And it was from a rabid left wing rag!!

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 06:59 AM

That was nearly three weeks ago, Keith. Got any updates? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 04:56 AM

Guardian. (Which you say you read Steve)

"Labour leadership: infiltration shambles puts vote at risk, says Lord McConnell, Former Scottish first minister "

"With the contenders set for an emergency meeting to discuss efforts to weed out infiltrators,"

"More than 120,000 people have paid £3 to take part in the vote, along with more than 189,000 members of unions and other affiliates, swelling the electorate to more than 600,000.

According to Newsnight reports, more than 3,000 voters have been rejected, though Labour said on Friday the figure was half that number.
The first wave of rejections, known as #Labourpurge on social media, included removing members who had been Conservative, Green and Socialist Worker party candidates, and those expressing support or raising money for rival parties."

"Leaked meeting notes from the party's procedure committee show it has been inundated and the system is overstretched, with the New Statesman reporting that almost every member of Labour HQ's slimmed-down post-election staff has been drafted in to help wade through the roll of new supporters.
Murad Gassanly, a councillor in Pimlico, south London, told Newsnight he estimated 20% of supporters who had joined the local branch were "dubious", with evidence of them supporting other parties found on Google and social media."

"We are also concerned that, given the party's limited resources and the effort required to investigate applicants, this could result in the integrity of the contest being called into question, and the outcome subject to legal challenge."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/aug/22/labour-leadership-infiltration-shambles-lord-mcconnell

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 04:45 AM

Steve,
knowing your right-wing political stance, Keith, I'd have thought you'd approve of any infiltration that might help Jeremy.

I do not have one.
Middle of the road. Centre right. The English default.

It is beholden on you, Keith, to demonstrate that the current Labour election has involved jiggerypokery that is particularly out of proportion.

And I have.
I have quoted leading Labour figures.
I have seen and heard it on the BBC, the other broadcasters and the published media, and will provide more examples if you want.

Can you quote any Labour insider refuting that infiltration is an issue.
No.
You can't because it is just another assertion, unsupported and unsupportable because it is, as ever, wrong.
I can support mine because it is, as ever, correct.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:31 PM

Just watched a recording of the Panarama problem about Corbyn. it would have been better named Paranoia.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:19 PM

"Like it or not, he has to show respect for the Queen and the nation"

Has any ever seen Jeremy Corbyn being rude or discourteous, even to those who are hostile to him?

Obviously Jeremy Corbyn will treat the Queen with respect, as he would treat any other person with respect, including of course any 89 year old lady. And why should anybody think that he does not respect this nation which he has served as an MP for more than 30 years?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:48 PM

There is not an election that has ever been held on this planet, no matter how "free and fair", that hasn't had someone or other trying to cheat. It is beholden on you, Keith, to demonstrate that the current Labour election has involved jiggerypokery that is particularly out of proportion. So far, you have provided quotes from a neurotic Labour MP, a right-winger who supports Yvette fer chrissake, but no hard evidence. It is well known that Jeremy's opponents will try anything to diss him, especially her. Actually, knowing your right-wing political stance, Keith, I'd have thought you'd approve of any infiltration that might help Jeremy. .

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:22 PM

I can't find, after albeit a quick look, any membership numbers for the SWP.

I cannot imagine it is a large number and as such is highly unlikely to affect the leadership election of the labour party.

I doubt if their numbers amount to more than a few thousand in total, certainly not the 160,000 that applied for the right to vote in the final 24 hours of registration.

New Members

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:17 PM

"A member of the Labour national executive committee told the Sunday Times: "It is pretty clear that what is happening amounts to infiltration of the Labour party."
The Communist party has urged its supporters to vote for Jeremy Corbyn in the leadership race.
Labour MP John Mann told the Sunday Times the situation was "totally out of control" and called on acting leader Harriet Harman to suspend the process for admitting new members while checks can be carried out.
"It is becoming a farce with longstanding members... in danger of getting trumped by people who have opposed the Labour party and want to break it up," he said.
John Cryer, who chairs the Parliamentary Labour Party, told the Mail on Sunday members of the TUSC have been joining as registered supporters for £3, which gives them the right to vote in the leader and deputy leader elections.
The TUSC was formed in 2010 with the help of the Socialist Party, which was the successor of Militant Tendency.
"These people were thrown out of the Labour Party and should not be allowed to vote," Mr Cryer said to the newspaper.
Former minister Lord Hutton added that it would be a "travesty" if members of Militant Tendency were able to influence the election."
- See more at: https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/labour-concern-over-infiltration-leadership-contest#sthash.KPboNd8K.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 01:09 PM

Are you being disingenuous or naive Steve?
What evidence would I personally have?
I know it is true because it is common knowledge in the Labour Party, and it has been very widely reported.
I just gave the first example that popped up.
Want more?

Are you seriously claiming to be unaware that infiltration is a major issue in this election?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 12:49 PM

I think Keith is probably right and the SWP and other socialists will be working for Jeremy's election, surely no one can be daft enough to deny that.

But these guys are hardened politicos I know some of them and they are not daft either, they want the party to split, as we will never see socialism advanced as an alternative until it does.
we may never get power in my lifetime, but if PR is adopted at least people can be given the choice as to what type of future they want for their families and the country.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:44 AM

And I'm surprised that the only evidence you've offered is the say-so of a rather neurotic MP.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM

So the SWP are infiltrating the Labour party to vote Corbyn in as leader. It seems like only last week it was conservatives buying a vote to do the same.

Yes Rag, and it still is.
The Tories want him to win too, but for different reasons.

I am surprised that neither of you is aware of all this.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 10:00 AM

Evidence Steve?
Are you not following the debacle at all?

"Mann (Labour MP) told Harman (acting leader): "[The election] should be halted. It is becoming a farce with longstanding members … in danger of getting trumped by people who have opposed the Labour party and want to break it up – some of it is the Militant Tendency-types coming back in.
"It is pretty clear that what is happening amounts to infiltration of the Labour party."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/26/jeremy-corbyn-genuine-labour-supporters-leadership-election

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 09:46 AM

Very pleased that Cameron had the guts to authorise droning of the 2 British jihadist ragheads

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 08:51 AM

Funny how the far left are said "infiltrate" a supposedly left-wing party that's meant to be a broad church... Anyway, Keith, less of the dark rumour-mongering. Where's your evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 08:11 AM

So the SWP are infiltrating the Labour party to vote Corbyn in as leader. It seems like only last week it was conservatives buying a vote to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 05:07 AM

Me Guest 04:04

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 04:39 AM

More importantly, we have sunshine after 4 days of 1st rain since April in Alicante!'

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 04:04 AM

"Ultra left wingers do not inhabit the Labour Party. Look elsewhere for the true lefties. Jeremy is a bunny rabbit compared to some of the people you'd find in the SWP, for example."

SWP and similar ultra left groups have previously infiltrated Labour to get closer to power.
Such people are said to be infiltrating now to elect Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:40 AM

"Best thing to happen to the Conservatives (Republicans) will be the election of the (relatively) ultra left wing Jeremy Corbyn."

Pretty Polly! Pretty Polly!

That's it, keep on parroting the right wing media to ensure that this country never changes. Have you ever been able to think for yourself, Brian?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:23 AM

Surely no one knows what sort of leader JC would make it is one thing to canvas to win an election and another thing to lead. With leadership comes responsibility and you cannot behave with just disagreeing with what the other person said, JC electability comes when, like it or not he has to show respect to the Queen and the nation. Then it will get interesting. His future and the labour parties future is very much in his hands.
There is I believe an sub plot to be explored and that is the SNP has seen to be leading the left in parliament, where will the SNP be when JC arrives
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:11 AM

Even "Ultra Leftwingers" need to be pragmatic.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Sep 15 - 03:08 AM

I think we all know that Jeremy won't be Prime Minister. It's not about getting power, its about being able to make our voices heard.

At the moment there is no one advocating a socialist answer to all the problems that have been created in the last couple of decades and as Labour leader Jeremy can join with other smaller Parties to put pressure on ......and to perform the difficult job of implementing change in how the electorate view politics and the future.

Nothing important is going to happen quickly.....but if this chance is missed we may not see another.

PR should be the first objective.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 15 - 08:53 PM

Ultra left wingers do not inhabit the Labour Party. Look elsewhere for the true lefties. Jeremy is a bunny rabbit compared to some of the people you'd find in the SWP, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Sep 15 - 06:45 PM

A shade of overconfidence there. Always hedge your bets.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Brian May
Date: 07 Sep 15 - 06:25 PM

So. . . the Labour Party has a week to live . . .

Leastways, the Labour Party that was cohesive and in touch with reality anyway.

For our American cousins Labour = Democrats (ish).

Best thing to happen to the Conservatives (Republicans) will be the election of the (relatively) ultra left wing Jeremy Corbyn.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,buddy
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 07:04 AM

Good guess but it is the front row at a Willie Nelson concert.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: BobL
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 04:25 AM

Once upon a time it was the queue for a Max Bygraves show...

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,buddy
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 07:25 AM

What is forty feet long and has 8 teeth?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,buddy
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 07:19 AM

This place is so boring. No wonder it is dying a slow painful death.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 06:49 AM

Miliband certainly had a focus, but his lack of real world experience showed through more than Cameron's despite their very similar post uni" "Westminster bubble" that does make people seem to think pronouncements make reality.

I turned off when, after him meeting with twenty or so healthcare people, myself included, crying that GP retirements are increasing and young doctors not wanting to go into that profession where they have to add practice share to their mortgage and student debt.

Two days later, he promised 20,000 GPs from somewhere. You see, professional politicians believe their own bullshit. They genuinely think if they say it will be so, it can be. Mind you, he did force Jeremy Hunt to make a similar promise. Seeing him back pedal now is almost a delight. Or would be if we weren't facing such a problem...

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 05:00 AM

I thought Miliband was very electable actually. Otherwise I wouldn't have voted for him. In fact, as I sat watching Magma at the Royal Northern College of Music on the evening May 7th I was quietly confident of a Labour victory. Earlier that day I'd had a brief but inspiring chat outside the Fleetwood Labour Party hq with a very optimistic Cat Smith. We parted with laughter and it felt like change was in the air as my wife & I drove off to MCR to immerse ourselves in an evening of soothing Zeuhl.

Then came the despair of the Exit Polls, but my heart was lifted as I smiled through my tears watching as Sunderland returned an overwhelming Labour majority. Happily, Cat got in too. She supports Jeremy Corbyn. As do I.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:27 AM

No problem M, I do tend to ignore a lot of stuff here but it was purely an oversight...best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:16 AM

Canada is much larger than the US but it does have a much broader view. In this case , size does not matter.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 02:36 AM

Just think. If gay people were only civil so he could be civil back, Akenaton would be the world's first person to be cured of a personality disorder.

Even when he tries to sound contrite, it merely contradicts his outlook, sad bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:38 PM

Yes, in this world of wiki and google, Joe's lament does seem obsolete.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 08:29 PM

Interesting that Joe Offer felt it necessary to give that potted summary for bemused Americans. No one would be likely to feel it necessary to do the same about some thread about the American political squabbles round their electiin, for the sake of puzzled foreigners.

Of course he's right, our media gives more attention to America than it does to most of the UK. But it does illustrate the truism that in some ways, the bigger the country, the smaller the world it lives in. I believe it applies to China even more than to the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:16 PM

Thank you, and I apologize for the namecalling.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 05:48 PM

I'm Sorry michaelr, didn't mean to be dismissive and I have been on a lot of hospital duty today.

When Mr Milliband was elected leader of the Labour Party, the media latched on to the fact that he looked rather like Wallace, a comedy cartoon character which you are obviously familiar with.
The joke stuck and was followed by several other personal attacks on his appearance and rather gauche mannerisms.
I always try to respond civilly to civil people, of whom you are normally one.....Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 03:59 PM

Anthony brown is a variation on gordon blair, one thing they have in common is that they both puppets.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 03:20 PM

I was talking to ake, who bizarrely brought up Wallace and Gromit.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM

Of course, Margaret Thatcher was widely said to be unelectable, when she was made Tory leader almost by accident. That turned out not to be the case, somewhat unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 02:13 PM

Labours policies on immigration was their downfall in the May election, that and borrow borrow borrow to get out of debt.

Thank God we elected a strong government not afraid to deal with such issues. We will hold power for a decade.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 01:46 PM

I think it was Roy Jenkins who said that 'Labour's problem is that the British public is basically Conservative. It's Labour's job to prevent them realising it.'

Unfortunately for the likes of Kinnock, Miliband et al, the British public do realise that they're 'basically Conservative' which is why they usually vote for them, only voting Labour after long periods of Tory government. Probably from boredom or because 'it's time for a change.'

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 11:23 AM

Corbyn is moderate ,the rest are Conservatives in disguise, Blair was a left of center conservative a bit like Heath, The only way he differed was his foreign policy as regards Ulster, his wife being Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Musket
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:54 AM

The thing is Joe, what people are pointing out is that the general public do not elect a Prime Minister, they elect a party and the party decides its leader.

To be fair, the influence of American ideas and media campaigns has always tampered with that idea and thee are still people going round saying the previous Prime Minister Gordon Brown was never elected. Such ignorance is mainly due to lazy misunderstanding what it means when they are let loose in a polling booth, and to be fair, because journalists try to see similarities in systems so compare a Prime Minister to a President..

Did you know? Thanks to trashy US soap operas being beamed into homes for years and years, British Telecom had to add 911 to do the same as 999, the national emergency number because younger people assumed 911 meant emergency after being raised on popcorn television.

Well, politics can mean the same too.



On this debate, I agree Steve, and further, I think him at the despatch box for a couple of years will enliven political debate which is a good thing, but in the same way the people trusted Churchill in war but rejected him come peace, the UK electorate don't need a Tory press to see the flawed logic in quantitive easing in times of growth, nationalisation without compensation and incomes policy. Parts may have merit, but if you want a mix n match to achieve success, those eligible to vote may as well vote Andy Burnham.

The only Labour platform that has secured government in the last forty years has been a moderate one. And then some...

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:43 AM

Who's this Anthony Brown? And what's all this "you Brits" malarkey?

Subject: RE: BS: E Milliband was unelectable
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Aug 15 - 07:28 AM

The thread Joe has really nothing to do with Mr Milliband, It's about "electability" the effect of the media no peoples voting intentions.
It was a good subject to discuss, Thanks to Good Soldier.

There is an election for leader of the Labour Party at the moment, The Labour Party was founded on socialists principles, but has been adulterated in recent years by free market "liberals" like the "Tony Brown" that you mention.
Mr Antony Brown was very popular and kept many MPs in well paid jobs for years.....but he took us to war, privatised everything he could, and finally bankrupted the country.

Front runner in this leadership election is(believe it or not), a socialist called Jeremy Corbyn and all the "liberals" in the opposition and in the country are at present trying to convince the Labour Party membership that Mr Corbyn would be unelectable in a general election, chiefly because he is a "socialist", the sort of person who founded the Labour Party in the first place!!

Some of us have been saying that it does not matter if Jeremy wins a general election or not, the important thing being that a socialist voice will again be heard in British politics.