Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Mick Harris
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:30 PM

Of course you are. Apologies for trolling. Sláinte! Dal ati!, Daliwch ati!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:52 PM

Harris give it up will you, you're now ceasing to be of interest. I'm English, proud of it, end of story, get over it

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 12:02 PM

"but I imagine Mr Miller would have been most gratified to hear it so described !!"
Not really - he based it mainly on actuality recorded from two East Anglian fishermen, Sam Larner and Ronnie Balls (using actuality was one of the vital ingredients of many of MacColl's successful songs) A number of the Travellers we recorded claimed 'Freeborn Man' as an old Travellers song - it was neither 'Traveller' nor 'old'.
There was an eejit who claimed that MacColl "stole" 'Shoals' from traditional singers - MacColl (he changed his name you know - just like Robert Zimmermann) was always rather proud of that accusation.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:38 AM

nd if I remember correctly she didn't just say it was Scottish. She suggested it came from the north-east of Scotland. She probably incorrectly equated it with the north-east of Scotland because of the fishing industry there!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 11:02 AM

A recent TV programme about "Folk Music" featured a rendition of " The Shoals Of Herring " , introduced by a buxom and not unattractive Scottish lady singer , who stated that it was " A Scottish song " . Not true, of course, but I imagine Mr Miller would have been most gratified to hear it so described !!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:35 AM

White Anglo Saxon Protestant[wasp]

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 06:03 AM

I was born on a plane in mid-flight.

My parents (nationality unknown) abandoned me in the jungle as a baby.

I was brought up by a family of wasps.

What does that make me (apart from a pathological liar)?

Home is where the heart is.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Mick Harris
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 02:25 AM

English born, Scots / Welsh bred. I have a cocker / springer cross. It's a cocker / springer cross, whichever field it's running in.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:21 PM

I just a thought, my last name was originally Norman French....now that REALLY does mess with the "Harris equation" *LOL*

Nighty Night All !!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:18 PM

Oh I am VERY comfortable with who and what I am Harris, so please...cease and desist your nonsense, I've never fought what I am and I am English born and English bred. Let me repeat one more time, so you FULLY understand, I don't identify with the Scots and I don't identify with the Welsh, never have done, never will do.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 10:13 PM

I am a fourth generation Canadian but I carry a Scottish name and Gaelic was the mother tongue of both of my parents. Canada is polarized into English and French classifications and because of the language that I speak most fluently I am considered English-Canadian although I carry no English genes. In no way do I feel English and I am sure that I would be feeling much more at home in the Hebrides than I would in London. Being Scottish is as much a culture as a nationality and I understand from whence Ewan came!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 06:46 PM

"BTNG - If your parents were Scots and Welsh, that makes you Scots & Welsh, not English at all."

It is surely absurd to say to someone born and brought up in England that he is not English at all? If he doesn't equate with being Scottish or Welsh then as I said previously to him people will self identify as they please. We can't dictate what other people are. Just because someone's parents aren't English it doesn't mean that they aren't.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:53 PM

If anyone is interested in MacColl's musical roots, CAMSCO has re-issued very nice CD of Ewan singing with his mother, Betsy Miller.It's titled "A Garland of Scottish Folk Songs"

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:37 PM

whatever that lot meant....

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Mick Harris
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:37 PM

BTNG - If your parents were Scots and Welsh, that makes you Scots & Welsh, not English at all. You're a fraud thinking otherwise. You should be comfortable with who you are rather than fighting it.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:34 PM

if you are not a folkie and not welsh or scots, i am afraid you do not win a crackerjack pencil or a cabbage or a night with joe offer, and you really might as well abandon all hope, you might as well back the giant bolster in the hennessey gold cup.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM

I don't identify at all with the Welsh or the Scots in anyway at all, and as I believe I've said before I'm no folkie

Okay.....?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 03:15 PM

My guitar is Japanese. But I don't like paper folding and flower arranging.

This is like Philosophy 101

Caesar is a duck
All ducks have webbed feet
Caesar has webbed feet

I mean.....who cares. if it worked for Ewan being a Scot. if it helped him find the mindset to create. all to the good.

And incidentally I find that works for me, thinking of myself as a folksinger.

Okay.....?

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:57 PM

My mother was from Scotland, therefore she is a Scot. My father was from Wales, therefore he is/was Welsh. I was born in England, therefore I am English.
but your ancestry is scottish /welsh

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:38 PM

My mother was from Scotland, therefore she is a Scot. My father was from Wales, therefore he is/was Welsh. I was born in England, therefore I am English.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM

Jim Carroll has it correctly. The Scottish side of Ewan was political to me as in my discussions with him he was definitely of the " British working man" group. We disagreed on Scottish Republicanism/Indeepencece which I advocated. He sang about the Jacobite Rebellion but that was as close as he got to a Scottish political line. Every Scot knows his accent is theatrical but I don't think that is important in the great scheme of his great contribution to folk music in general.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 12:45 PM

"He was still English, not Scots." People will self-identify as they will so I don't think you can truly say people are definitely this or that. Plus being English doesn't in itself preclude you from being Scottish. People can see themselves as both Scottish and English. My wife does for one! She was born and raised in England with one Scottish parent and one English parent - but she has now lived in Scotland for a longer period than she ever lived in England and has two Scottish children. I know other people with English parents who state they are 100% Scottish.Everyone is different.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:56 AM

Ewan was a theatrical person, knew how to dramatize his songs and added Peggy to enhance his music. He was also a socially conscious person which made him more relevant to me than other singers.

I don't think that you can portray an artistic performance without a considerable amount of education. Ewan and Lloyd both did this.

What made them relevant was their interpretations of the Scots Ballads and sea songs.

Let's face it. There are some traditional singers who are actually boring in their presentation.
The material is more important than their singing of it.

Of course, this brings up the question, what is entertainment and to whom?

Subjectivity comes up.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:48 AM

Ewan had Scots parents - gave him the best of both worlds (if you can count Salford as a world!)
I had Irish parents - gave me the best of both worlds, but never sure of which side of the fence I should be.
Still - it's an excuse to get in a bit of corpse-kicking (he died in 1989 you know!!)
Pity he was such a great singer and one of those who opened up all this beautifil music for us - then you could really have given his corpes a real kicking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 11:19 AM

You know what the Duke of Wellington said when they asked him if he was Irish, just because you're born in a stable - it doesn't mean you're a horse.

If Ewan wanted to a Scot, you should let him. Its like with transexuals who are born a man, but they have a womwn inside who wants to get out.

Ewan obviously had a Scotsman inside, trying to get out.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:27 AM

After 20+ threads about Ewan, I DO wish he had lived to read & comment on all the opinions about him! Wouldn't THAT have been a lively debate?

Peggy doesn't seem to use the internet... as far as I can tell. I gave her a CD of some pictures I took of her concert at her childhood home, and she sent me a handwritten note instead of email.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: BTNG
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:26 AM

He was still English, not Scots.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 09:24 AM

MacColl came from Scots parents and grew up in Salford surrounded by Scots friends and neigbours.
His accent's never bothered me - on the contrary - he introduced me to 137 Child ballads, cornkisters, Burns songs... and many, many more beautiful Scots songs that, as a young Liverpudlian, would have totally passed me by.
He also taught me the beauties of the Scots dialect.
I remember seeing MacBeath at the Edinburgh Festival back in the mid 60s (Matt McGinn played the gatekeeper) - and coming away not having undersood a single word - MacColl's accents led me to appreciating that at a later date.
Here's to his memory as far as I'm concerned.
Cheers Ewan!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:30 AM

There's that awful word "heritage". Here I am, with ancestors from Lancashire, East Anglia, Kinross (Scotland) and Kildare (Ireland), born in Lancashire, raised in Glasgow, educated in Leeds, lived in London, resident in Sussex.

What shall I sing? Songs by Jimmie Rodgers, the Delmore Brothers and Leon Redbone, of course...

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 08:19 AM

Ok, so he was an actor at heart, and his work with Theatre Workshop gives good examples of this.

I have no problem with his weird Scottish accents (note the plural, it's one thing to be brought up by Scottish parents, it's another to try, successfully in the main, to echo the local accent of a traditional song.

The only issue I ever had with him, and had a couple of occasions to discuss this with the great man himself, was his insistence that he can work "within an act" and try to reflect the songs he sang, which both in tradition and his now pen came from all around the world, not just Scotland, but other acts must be indigenous to their own heritage.

A weird stance, but there again, lots of things people say about him started with a grain of truth. The price of genius is rarely the ability to get along with others.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Nov 11 - 05:43 AM

If Scottish people were black, he would have been black.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 04:52 PM

This doesn't worry "Us British" (from "It ain't half hot Mum")...
Ouch, just gave away my age!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Rugger bugger
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 03:08 PM

Judging by our national side you qualify as Scottish if your grannie, from where ever once took a bus trip to the Trossachs so he must be. On the other hand if he had wanted to be English he could be that too. My Daughters - both born in Sevenoaks see themselves a Scottish, French because their mother was, and English because that's where they both live. It suits them and perhaps we should consider how important our nationality is to us. Does it make us all part of the patriot game.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:55 PM

Hi Countess,
I had many a discussion with Ewan about UK politics and he definitely didn't agree with MacDiarmid or the Lallans movement. He was very British in his stance and thought any movement away from that was a 'betrayel of the British working man'. When we discussed things in his house, Peggy always sat beside him with her knitting, prodding him now and again to keep him on track when he wandered! It was quite a strange double act. His main argument against Lallans was that Scottish poets of lang syne wrote in Latin and not in Scots (sic). MacDiarmid tried to drag Scotland into the twentieth century by reinventing an older form of speech but Ewan disagreed with this.
Jim

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:53 AM

Hi Jim,

I was quoting Peggy Seeger in her introduction to Journeyman, Ewan's autobiography published just after his death in 1990, in which she speculates on the various 'blank spots' of his life.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:44 AM

PPS Countess Richard .. The Lallans movement started long before the second World War. MacDiarmid's Sangshaw was published in 1925 by which time he had obviously changed his name from Chris Grieve. Ewan MacColl was never in favour of anything which smacked of Scottish Independence and I feel there had to be another reason for his change of name.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:16 AM

(SORRY, FINGER SLIPPED)
   (19 verses)
Lake of beauty! Lake of splendour,
All surpassing! Lomond rare;
Fondly to thee would I render,
Praise befitting scene so fair.

Matchless mirror of the Highlands,
Cold's the heart that feels no glow,
Viewing thee with all thy islands -
Heaven above and heaven below!

Last verse:
From his lair the fox is stealing,
Quits the owl her hermit cell:
Vision far past all revealing,
Dear Lochlomond, now farewell!

The only 'political' poem I could find is one called GLORY TO THE BRAVE! (4 verses)

Last verse:
Glory to the brave! Soon may they return
Crown'd with wreaths of never dying-fame!
Soon their haughty foe shall his rashness mourne,
Cover'd with discomfiture and shame.
Potent though he be,
Europe shall him see
Mercy on his knee lowly crave.
Such be quick the fall
Of earth's despots all,
Glory, glory, glory to the brave.

Evan MacColl was undoubtedly a good lyrical poet as some of his poems show but I cannot see Ewan (Jimmy Miller) calling himself after Evan for that reason.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:01 AM

McGrath of Harlow, here is the first couple of verses from EVENING ADDRESS TO LOCH LOMOND:

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 06:53 PM

I was born in Scotland, but taken to England at 9 weeks old: hence I have an English accent, which 18 years in Scotland has not changed. My kids were both born in England, but brought to Scotland at age 9 and 3, so they both have Scottish accents: so who's English and who's Scottish?
Incidentally we called our son Ewan, "as in Ewan McColl", to which the reply from many - "Who's he?" I very much admired Ewan McColl's singing classing myself as a folkie, but to a non-folkie, he's unfortunately not as well-known!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 05:04 PM

It'd be interesting to see a sample, to give an indication, was it just that Ewan MacColl liked the name, or was there something more about what the man wrote that he felt spoke to him.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 05:10 AM

I have a collection of Evan MacColl's poems and, out of interest, his My Rowan Tree is not the popular one most of us know (just in case one might think otherwise). They are mostly of the heather, hills and loch variety.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:44 AM

Was the phrase "ethnic origin" really in use in Canada in 1880? That surprises me, I thought it came into general use much more recently, in Britain at any rate.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:32 AM

I too love Ewan MacColl's work and songs. But here is soemthing I came up with after my curiosity was aroused by this thread.

The name MacColl does not appear as a defined clan name according to the authoritive and encyclopedic book on Scottish clans 'The Scottish Clan and family Encyclopedia' written by George Way of Plean and Romilly Squire. It is still in print.

The names MacColl, MacCall and MacCaul do appear and they come under the leadership of the Clan MacDonald.

Then it gets more interesting as there are three Clan McDoanld's.

MacDonald of Macdonald
MacDonald of Clanranald
MacDonald of Sleat

All of the above three clans are related by history and all at some time were Lords of the Isles. They were also the founders of other great clans.

On reading the three histories in the book it would seem to me that the MacColl's are descended from those who lived on the Isle of Coll in the western isles and owed alliegance to MacDonald of MacDonald.

Whatever, his work is great.

For those of you of Scottish blood or descent then the book I mentioned above is a superb reference.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Brakn
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 08:07 PM

It's not relevant but just in case anyone's interested, I found them on the 1880 Canadian census.

Rideau Ward, Kingston, Frontenac, Ontario

Name Marital Status Gender Ethnic Origin Age Birthplace Occupation Religion
Evan MCCALL   M   Male   Scottish   74   Scotland   Gent.   Weslyan Methodist
Isabella MCCALL   M   Female   Scottish   65   Q       Weslyan Methodist
Jessie MCCALL      Female   Scottish   28   Q       Weslyan Methodist
Nellie MCCALL      Female   Scottish   20   Ontario      Weslyan Methodist
Florence MCCALL      Female   Scottish   16   Ontario      Weslyan Methodist

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 02:04 PM

Apparently Evan McColl (I wonder if "Ewan" was a mistake or intentional - they are both the same name of course) emigrated to Canada - here's some information about him from an encyclopedia:

MacCOLL, Evan, Canadian poet, born in Kenmore, Argyleshire, Scotland, 21 September, 1808. He received a good education, and in 1837 became a contributor to the " Gaelic Magazine" published in Glasgow.

In 1831 MacColl's family emigrated to Canada, but he remained behind, and in 1837 was appointed a clerk in the Liverpool custom-house. In 1850 he removed to Canada, and soon afterward obtained a situation in the Kingston custom-house, where he remained till he was retired in 1880.

During his residence in Canada he has written numerous poems, chiefly of a lyrical character, the most, noted of which is "My Rowan Tree." He has been for many years the bard of the St Andrew's society of Kingston. He has published in book-form " Clar-sach Nan Beann, or Poems and Songs in Gaelic" (Glasgow, 1837; new edition, 1886), and " The Mountain Minstrel, or Poems and Songs in English" ; third Canadian edition of his works (Toronto, 1887). See Wilson's "Poets and Poetry of Scotland" (New York, 1876).

His daughter, Mary Jemima, born in Liverpool, England, 7 May, 1847, was educated in Kingston, Ontario, taught for several years, and in 1881 married Professor Otto Henry Schulte, of Hasbrouck institute, Jersey City, New Jersey She is the author of "Bide a Wee, and other Poems" (Buffalo, 1879; 4th ed., Toronto).

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 08:10 AM

This was taken from the History of the McColls.

(I mentioned on another thread that McColl was berated me for wearing a [McLean]Tartan tie .. he seemed to equate it with Scottish Nationalism! .. I said to him 'My name is McLean, Mr Miller'.)


Tradition has it that the MacColls have been associated with the area round Loch Fyne from an early date ... The MacColls most famous exponent was Evan McColl the Gaelic poet who was born at Kenmore on Loch Fyne in 1808. He was the author of the "The Mountain Minstrel" or in Gaelic "Clarsach nam Beann". He died at the end of the century and a monument was erected at Kenmore in his memory, which was unveiled in 1930 by His Grace the Duke of Argyll.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 06:39 AM

I don't know where I read it, [a magazine article many years ago, I think] any don't quote me for the locale, but I recollect reading that Evan [not Ewan] MacColl was a 19C Perthshire Gaelic minor poet. I have often said with pride that in 1960 I sang so much like MacColl people would ask what my name was before I changed it to Ewan. I would retort that I was Ewan in 1941, four years before he was.
I got the impression from another source I don't recall that the Ewan MacColl was a playwriting persona, and he seems to have recorded for Lomax in 1951 as Jimmy Miller, though he signed the relevant letter alerting Hamish Henderson about Lomax as Ewan.
These recordings, in the Lomax archives, are fascinating, and I'm urging that the Lomax people try to get them released on Rounder.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM

Blimey, Greg, I think we agree!

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM

Let us not forget that Ewan McColl recorded "John Henry". Whether he was Lancashire, Scottish or both may be disputed, but he most certainly was not a black steel-driver at the Big Bend Tunnel on the C&O Road. :ike many opinionated bigots, he was often ready to dispense advice to others that he wasnt willing to take himself. However, unlike most opinionated bigots, he was a brilliant singer and song-writer, so I am willing to forgive him for spouting offensive drivel.

Subject: RE: Gulp! Ewan MacColl - Scottish or Not?
From: Brakn
Date: 07 Feb 04 - 10:16 AM

Can white man sing the blues.