England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:23 AM

I play yellowfin - the King of Tunas.

(It's better than my melodeon playing.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:08 AM

It's not strictly true that I'd never add sugar to anything. Sometimes a curry needs a little, and that's the English national dish, innit?
NOT WAV's assertion that it's stotty cake and chips although Andy Turner wrote a very nice English tune called The Stotty Cake Polka.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:58 AM

Thanks Snail.
But I play the Duet......THE KING of tinas!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:55 AM

This thread has become so surreal that I'm thinking of entering it for the Turner prize!
Come on WAV, Keep up!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:37 AM

The French refer to custard as crème anglaise. In fact, they call a lot of things they don't like English (c.f. Dick's thread on how to be offensive to the English in Ireland). When a guest at a relative's house as a child, I was told to make the custard during dinner preparations. It went down not at all well because I hadn't added sugar. Sugar? Why should I? I never put sugar in anything. If being English involves sweetening things, I am not English. However, I was never asked to help in the house again. Silver linings and fluffy things in the sky . . .

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:30 AM

Here ya go, Ralphie - English.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:23 AM

Thanks Don.
We Brits know all about the cue ball definition.
So much so that we never refer to it.
It's so ingrained in our psyche, something that we are told about at a very early age.
A bit like potty training.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:54 PM

OK ,Ralphie ... you wanted it, so here it is....
definitions of the word English

Should keep you occupied for a little while, methinks!! ENJOY ....

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:31 PM

Putting some back-spin on the cue-ball?

Just trying to be helpful. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:25 PM

Jolly Good.
But, can someone please define the term "English" for me.
I'm abit confused.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:58 PM

Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown) - Developed from German / French prototypes

Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown) - Modern invention by Julian Goodacre based on ancient iconography.

English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina - Victorian inventions based on ancient Chinese free reed technology

(and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England) - likewise pop music, Indian & Chinese cuisine, etc. etc

Dital Harp/Harp-Lute - short-lived Victorian parlour novelty for short-lived Victorian parlour ladies.

English Cittern - Barbershop novelty, long since defunct as far as it ever existed at all; used as a name for modern mandola and bouzouki type instruments from 1960s onwards.

English Flageolet - European invention developed with respect to parlour / chamber musics. Most defuinately not precursor of penny whistle, no matter what it says on WIKI - a misconception owing to Generation calling their modern 6-hole whistle-flutes flageolets.

Penny Whistle - Internationally & historically ubiquitous 6-hole whistle-flute made with tin by Clarke in the mid 19th century & later developed by Dave Shaw in the late 20th. About as English as the penis.

Recorder/English Flute - see discussion above, Jack Campin et al.

Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment) - derived from medieval European traditions extant in French (Basque) traditions, Mexico etc. Also associated, iconographically, in England with dancing bears.

the Stylophone (a recent one) - commercial toy, circa 1960s, kitsch value, revived in early 21st century.

Brass - international instruments developed from ancient Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Oriental, Australasian & European instruments; also Medieval slide technology (surviving in trombone) replaced with piston & rotary valves invented in Europe early 1800s.

Bells (to some, England's national instrument) - But nevertheless found throughout the world with the most ancient examples being in the far east.

as well as Spoons - a variety of clapper percussion, likewise bones etc. - likewise internationally ubiquitous.

So - nothing here to support WAV's nationalist & monocultural ideals. On the contrary, all would indicate aeons of cross-cultural pollinations consequent on continuous historical immigrations & emigrations. Manifestations of a world in transience and long may it continue to be so! In fact, given the above, I'd be hard pushed to think of an instrument that wasn't OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:57 PM

Yes, DVF, it's now at the Chantry in Morpeth; and, piping down, WSK, here's the newly amended list, as mentioned above...

INSTRUMENTS OF (OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH) ENGLAND
Northumbrian Bagpipes (bellows blown), Leicestershire Bagpipes (mouth blown); English Concertina, Anglo Concertina, Duet Concertina (and important developments to – if not inventions of – other key-boards, such as piano and organ, have also occurred in England); Dital Harp/Harp-Lute, English Cittern; English Flageolet, Penny Whistle, Recorder/English Flute, Pipe and Tabor (old Morris accompaniment, the Stylophone (a recent one), Brass, Bells (to some, England's national instrument), as well as Spoons (from here).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM

Regarding one of the above linked sites, we find this image HERE, described thus:

The very earliest depiction of an object that might be a bagpipe is a terra cotta figure currently residing in Berlin's "Staatliche Museum." (See photo below) This much-discussed object is generally considered to be the earliest depiction of any sort of bagpipe. It is Hellenistic, probably (it is said) from Alexandria, and dates, supposedly, to the first century BC. It is controversial, and enigmatic. Is that a bellows under the "piper's" right foot or is it a time-keeping device? Is that a mouth-blown pan-pipe he's holding in his left hand, while, perhaps, the bag is providing air to a drone lying in his lap? Or is there a connection between the bag and the "pan-pipe" affair, which might operate like a Chinese Sheng (sounding a given pipe when a fingerhole is closed)? Might there be a bellows under the cloak on the figure's right side? All of these possibilities have been raised and argued.

This is very odd scholarship indeed, as the instrument depicted beneath the arm is unambiguously a friction drum latterly known as a rommelpot, and not any sort of bagpipe at all. Thus the ancient terracotta is a simple depiction of a one man band of pan-pipe and rommelpot.

We feel it is our public duty to point this sort of thing out, not just in the clarification of such wanton academic buffoonery (of which such examples are legion) but also with a view to getting back on thread, as they say. However, in respect of DVF's romantic angst, we can't resist another picture of Granma McAlatia relaxing at Formby Point in 1921. What a gal!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:27 AM

Oh, Granma McAlatia,
in your girlish tones of sepia,
Onychoheterotopia
is your only flaw.

But on account of my myopia
such irrelevant minutiae,
(likewise your macroprosopia)
Is why I gaze in awe!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Fisk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:04 AM

Medjugorje! We were in Bosnia-Herzegovina on holiday in the summer of 2006, and, having lately read Randall Sullivan's The Miracle Detective, we were both keen to visit the village where my girlfriend experienced what can only be called a religious reawakening. A Bosnian Roman Catholic by birth, she'd lapsed as teenager when she'd moved to England (aged fourteen) with her aunt at the onset of the troubles. I met her some ten years later as a vague sort of eco-folky-pagan, but after her experience in Medjugorje, all that went out the window and within a month she astonished us all when she announced she was moving back out there. We do get the occasional postcard, assuring us of her continuing affections, but, as I hinted above, her departure has brought myself and her aunt (who is six years older than my girlfriend and six years younger than myself and bears more than a passing resemblance to the young Granma McAlatia...) onto the brink of an old fashioned sort of romance - bagpipes, rusty or otherwise, notwithstanding!

On that note, I play a set of very unrusty Goodacre Leicestershire Bagpipes in an amateur early music group where we play works by Walther von der Vogelweide once a month in each other's front rooms. I also play Moeck Renaissance alto and tenor recorders and a Moeck Baroque oboe, but only ever privately on account of my nervous constitution.   

Dad Van Fisk

PS - I remember there being a Northumbrian bagpipe museum in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in a castle near the old Bridge Hotel where I used to go to the folk club in the seventies. I couldn't find it last time I visited, so do I gather correctly that it's moved to Morpeth?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:13 AM

Oh, and DVF - anything to oblige! The WSF archives are replete which such wholesome beauties, and it's so nice to read some real poetry on these WAV-type threads. What's your girlfriend doing in Medjugorje? We take a keen interest in the BVM's astute messages therefrom, the latest being:

Dear children! May your life, anew, be a decision for peace. Be joyful carriers of peace and do not forget that you live in a time of grace, in which God gives you great graces through my presence. Do not close yourselves, little children, but make good use of this time and seek the gift of peace and love for your life so that you may become witnesses to others. I bless you with my motherly blessing. Thank you for having responded to my call.

(September 25, 2008)

Meanwhile - Rusty Bagpipe anyone?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:57 AM

More about bagpipe history Here and bagpipe technique Here.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:38 AM

As I remember it, "Mamma's got a brand new bag." which suggests that she'd had her pipes refurbished allowing her to do her finger exercises on Pappa's chanter.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Oldguit
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:28 AM

At risk of calming troubled waters, I thought I'd get back on topic.

When I were a lad back in Sarf London, I was always rooting for a fine pair of instruments that surely should be adopted as England's faves, if not most traditional, Namely:

The Pink Oboe (as previously mentioned) along with the Squeeze Box (as in, Mamma's got one, Pappa plays it all night long)

They were made for each other.

Oldguit Arr

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:21 AM

JC, DE, and TM - as with the recorder's origin, we'll never know where bags were first attached to pipes...but it's great, yes?, that we now have all these different varieties in different nations (as a map at the good WHOLESOME Morpeth museum, you mentioned TM, shows).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 06:18 AM

'romantic pereception of the Scotland that never was, a Scotland full of kilted wildmen (wearing their clan tartan, naturally) with big claymores and bagpipes.'

I think it sounds quite fun.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Frisk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:59 AM

Thanks for that, WSK! That's certainly brought the sun out - as without the office window then so in my pining heart!

Formby Point (he sighs!) - we used to have a caravan there until it was buried; current estimates of erosion are pretty severe, around 13 feet a year - you can see trees sticking out the sand, so quite a dynamic landscape. Before she left for Medjugorje, my girlfriend wrote this poem:


Bone-white hand clutching from
dry dune sand.

Kids, I said; Art, he said.
We pondered
which and in the age we
live where such
schemes are vague and on new
clothes we must
now gaze but - Sea, she said,

the woman
who told us of change and
caravans,
and other days, buried
days, happy
days, right here, beneath our
feet, which shift
now, awkward here, above,
for the thoughts
of what is lost, there, below.

(Formby Point, Sefton, July 2006)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:44 AM

"What a right bunch of idiots you all are."
Tootler ... had you only just realised this?? I'm still trying to work out what relevance photos of Granma McAlatia have to anything, but have decided that it's not worth the effort !!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Anything to oblige, DVF! In fact, we have just the thing...

Granma McAlatia, Formby Point, 1921

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Dad Van Frisk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:39 AM

Can we have another link to Granma McAlatia in her younger days please, WSK? It's a bit of a grey Monday here at work this morning and after a sunny lovely weekend falling in love with my girlfriend's aunt in Formby I could do with some cheering up.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Tootler
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 07:05 PM

What a right bunch of idiots you all are.

Whether WAV is serious or is just on a windup, he is succeeding in the latter big time and you all fall for it.

The ONLY way to deal with WAV's ridiculous and inane postings is to ignore them. If no one else posted to any thread started by him, they would die the natural death they deserve.

I am away on a week's holiday tomorrow and I have more than a sneaking suspicion that by the time I come back this thread will still be going and have over 500 postings by that time because you all can't resist trying to have the last word.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:16 PM

I'm pleased to see they're not playing tennis

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:09 PM

Granma McAlatia in her younger days (third from right).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

: So which came first the Northumbrian Small Pipes or the Highland pipes.

There are many books about the history of bagpipes. Hugh Cheape's might be a good start.

Highland pipes are older, evolved from an English pipe sometime before 1500 and taking their final form (with the bass drone) around 1750. Northumbrian pipes were developed in the late 18th century, based on smallpipes from both sides of the Border. The uilleann pipes were developed in the same place at the same time by the same makers, elaborating on the pastoral pipe, which was also found both sides of the Border. Neither the smallpipe nor the pastoral pipe was descended from the Highland pipe. The bellows was a French idea, adapted to all three types of pipe though it didn't catch on in a big way for Highland types (when so applied the result is known as a Border pipe).

The oldest pipes whose existence we know of from Scotland (and England) weren't like any of these; they were a common pan-European type best known these days in the early music scene. See Pete Stewart's book "The Day it Dawes" for a description and a repertoire. They were the least national instrument you could imagine, varying litle from Portugal to Bulgaria.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:28 PM

Ah yes, Mr Radish, I meant to give up after invoking Cicero and/or St Augustine but came back with just a little extremely basic musical information in the hope of sending WAV off in quest for knowledge and enlightenment. Waste of time, obviously. Thought I'd point out the bleedin' obvious: that crwths are not exclusively Welsh any more than leeks and daffodils are and that the origins of pipes are as far from being exclusively Caledonian as oats and fried Mars bars are wholly tartan-clad.

The first time somebody wondered if they could get a tune out of a disembowelled goat sure as hell didn't happen in Inverness, It would have occurred many, many centuries (if not millennia) earlier in the Middle East, the Far East or North / sub-Saharan Africa where human development was infinitely more advanced than on these islands. I know WAV doesn't like this obvious logic, but . . . tough.

To revert to the original question, I cannot for the life of me see why England needs a "national" instrument. Smacks of particularly nasty chauvinism to me. I did nowever give an answer far too many column miles above that the only (chromatic) instrument wholly invented in England was the English concertina, an irrelevant fact in musical terms as it can and is (in common with many another) used to perform music from many another culture. This is what musicians do, WAV. It's one of the ways in which art, and international understanding, grows. But that is anathema to you, isn't it?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM

There is a lovely little Bagpipe museum in Morpeth somewhere between Alnwick and Newcastle. Where I learned of the varieties of pipes than I wanted to know and subsequently forgot more than I learned. (Don't ask me how... it is a gift).
So which came first the Northumbrian Small Pipes or the Highland pipes. If it was the North Umbrian pipes shouldn't pipes be considered more an instrument of England than of Scotland? Or do the border disputes complicate this?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:09 PM

more-and-more mainstream politicians (after all the pro-immigrationism of the Blair years) ARE openly questioning immigration and the multicultural state

I don't think you've thought this through. If I believe your views are racist (as I do), would they cease to be racist, or cease to be worth combatting, when adopted by mainstream politicians? On the contrary - they'd remain racist and combatting them would become even more important. (But not on-topic for Mudcat, at least not above the line.)

Diane, you need to get clear in your mind about pipes and one of the variety of them, Highland pipes, before posting

WAV, Diane was trying to help you. You really seem determined not to learn anything you don't already know.

Enough: I'm dropping this thread from Tracer and not coming back. I'm not going to waste any more time with you, and I advise other Catters to do likewise.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 01:48 PM

On the contrary, Diane, you need to get clear in your mind about pipes and one of the variety of them, Highland pipes, before posting.
I was 3, CB, and I've stressed FROM NOW ON. And, in case you don't catch much news or programmes like the "Andrew Marr Show" this morning, more-and-more mainstream politicians (after all the pro-immigrationism of the Blair years) ARE openly questioning immigration and the multicultural state. Also, because I am actively trying to get back into manufacturing work and have little in the bank, yes I am receiving Job Seekers Allowance; everything I've done on the folk and poetry scene, thus far, is as an amateur.
To We Subvert Koalas (and we still don't know why) via Woody: I've learned quite a lot about my country both at home and while out-and-about - see the many such poems here.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 12:42 PM

it's the act of immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning,quote Walkabout Verse.
so wav ,you would prevent me from moving to Ireland.
well WAV,presumably you should not have been allowed to emigrate to Australia,and to emigrate back
Immigration to England is controlled,so what is it you want?if we were to say that all people who have emigrated should not be allowed back then that excludes you.
why should you be given preference?,since you deserted your motherland.,are you now drawing unemployment benefit and draining the motherlands resources?,you were many years absent from England[presumably not paying taxes],but paying tax in australia,or were you claiming unemployment benefit in Australia.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:16 AM

Gaelic was never banned either, and certainly suffered no suppression of any kind as a result of Culloden - it *was* later discouraged by the education system, but that didn't become an issue until after 1872.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 05:01 AM

Yet another banal racist euphemism, WAV.

For: Drop the two of us somewhere in Africa or Asia and you'd probably find that I'd get on as well or better with the locals, frankly - it's the act of immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning

Read: Whilst as an eco-tourist I have happily patronised the natives of Africa and Asia I am frankly appalled that African and Asian immigrants live in England, bringing their culture and spirituality with them. As I have said in verse, English culture is TAKING A HAMMERING, and when people lose their culture, society suffers.

As for the name, go figure, as they say, and as others indeed have. And when you've worked it out, answer the questions I've asked of you, specifically this: Given the nature of Jesuist teaching, how can you be both a Christian and an unrepentant believer in (and promoter of) such overtly racist bullshit?

The bottom line here, WAV, is that if you weren't a racist, none of this would be an issue at all. With a pure heart you'd be out there getting on with your life. As Woody said on the 5000 Morris Dancers thread Maybe you should get off your arse - stop moaning, watching TV & posting bollocks on Mudcat - and go out and learn something about the country you live in.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:45 AM

Minor? Well maybe if you have enough add-on accidentals. Otherwise pipe intonation is "approximate", to say the least.
I'm sure I've said this before, but all my knowledge of Scottish history comes from the John Prebble trilogy, which I read at the behest of June Tabor. Any inaccuracies are therefore her fault!.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:34 AM

Minor note, bagpipes being banned is a myth.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 03:59 AM

Oh well, were we to bring the even more ubiquitous origins of pipes into it we'd be here all day. They're no more exclusively "Scottish" than tins of shortbread. Again, they're mentioned by Chaucer and were widespread throughout Europe, North Africa, the Gulf and the Caucasus region. British colonialism took them to the furthest reaches of the former empire. Highland pipes (and tartan) became popular, and romanticised, in the Victorian era as a reaction to the ban on them and the Gaelic language imposed after Culloden being lifted.

Volgadon's post above reminds me of Brian McNeill's No gods and precious few heroes:

"Are you sitting in your council house dreaming of your clan?
Waiting for the Jacobites to come and free the land?
Try going down the broo with your claymore in your hand
And count all the princes in the queue."


Every time WAV opens his mouth his foot becomes further embedded. Enough. Go away and learn something before even thinking about coming back.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 05:41 PM

Wav, you might like to know that highland bagpipes only became a symbol of Scotland during the few years before Queen Vic's reign, when the fad was for all things Highland, an overly romantic pereception of the Scotland that never was, a Scotland full of kilted wildmen (wearing their clan tartan, naturally) with big claymores and bagpipes.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM

"Squirm" (We Subvert Koalas)...I've asked twice now for you to explain your name - no answer being the stern reply. Drop the two of us somewhere in Africa or Asia and you'd probably find that I'd get on as well or better with the locals, frankly - it's the act of immigration/emigration itself that I keep questioning.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 04:11 PM

According to illustrations and literature, the crwth appears to have been played widely across Europe, not just Wales. It's mentioned in Chaucer and players were designated by the surname Crowther in England and MacWhirter in Scotland. The crwth was probably most common in Finland and the Swedish-speaking coastal bit of Estonia where there is a substantial body of surviving music for the instrument. The "modern" Welsh crwth (which isn't really much like the traditional ancient lyre-like one) dates only to the late C16 or early C17 and was pretty much wiped out by two factors: the rise of rampant Welsh protestantism and the growth in popularity of that Italian import, the violin, by the end of C18. Revival crwths are built mainly by West country English luthiers. Ah, cultural diversity . . .

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:28 PM

No - racism is where someone says, e.g., "they are ALL like that" or "I don't mind immigrants from there but not that part of the world", which I have never done.

No, WAV - of course you haven't, because you're very careful to wrap everything up in banal rhetorical euphemisms which are your stock-in-trade, and of which the above is a classic example. This has been shown, time and time again, to be, in effect, a convenient semantic loophole through which you try to squirm like the vile worm you are. However, squirm as you might, your narrow cultural remit for the English is one that constantly laments that we are not, indeed, ALL like that you would wish us to be.

If you apply such noxious risible stereotyping to your own culture, how on earth must you view others?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM

Immigration/emigration the world over is, of course, regulated - I'm saying it should be more strongly regulated.

"Incidentally, your opening shot in this thread" (Pip)

"It's not difficult to find, e.g., the national instrument of, e.g., Wales or Scotland - triple-harp and highland-pipes, respectively" (me)

"is a statement of quite staggering ignorance. (There's no continuous tradition of triple-harp making or playing in Wales - and there's a lot more to Scotland than the Highlands.) You know next to nothing, WAV, and yet you insist on not learning." (Pip)...perhaps some Scots and Welsh may post as to who is showing "staggering ingnorance" (Pip) here...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 11:33 AM

National instrument of Wales?
Clwth perhaps?
National Instrument of Whales?
Plankton?

And WAV. just to correct your post (fictional)

"I don't mind immigrants from there, but, not part of the world"
Agreed you didn't say that, it doesn't even make sense.

But

You would probably say

"I don't mind immigrants from there, but, not part of MY world"
Yes?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 10:31 AM

Incidentally, your opening shot in this thread

It's not difficult to find, e.g., the national instrument of, e.g., Wales or Scotland - triple-harp and highland-pipes, respectively

is a statement of quite staggering ignorance. (There's no continuous tradition of triple-harp making or playing in Wales - and there's a lot more to Scotland than the Highlands.) You know next to nothing, WAV, and yet you insist on not learning.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

No - racism is where someone says, e.g., "they are ALL like that"

You've said this many times before, and it's still not true. To put it another way, your definition of racism is a lot narrower than the one that's currently in use (here in England).

If you don't want people to call you a racist, you need to avoid doing and saying things which those people believe are racist, not just things that you personally believe are racist.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 09:24 AM

No - racism is where someone says, e.g., "they are ALL like that" or "I don't mind immigrants from there but not that part of the world", which I have never done. And I've heard people say they don't want to travel to some country as they don't like the people - again, that is certainly NOT well-travelled me. And why "Subvert Koalas"?...because they take eucalyptus?!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,We Subvert Koalas
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 06:08 AM

That WAV does aggressively dislike people of other other cultures and ethnicities is evident in every word he writes, right down to his euphemistic I love the WORLD being multi-cultural, for which read: I hate England being multi-racial and we should send them back to where they came from.

Remember, according to WAV, England was a more English place 50 years ago and, as a result English culture is taking a hammering and, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

It doesn't get any more racist than that.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

No, WAV, it's the questioning of having multiple cultures in a single country, on the grounds that a homogeneous culture is a really important value - more important than individual freedom of movement, for one thing.

When I say someone has racist views, I don't mean that they aggressively dislike people of other cultures or that they wish other countries would abandon their cultural traditions. I mean that they believe that a person's cultural background is a really important fact about that person, and that people from different cultural backgrounds should be kept apart. In short, believing that countries ought to be monocultural (as you clearly do, although you're too mealy-mouthed to say so outright) is racist. So this "how dare you call me a racist?" act isn't ever going to persuade me - or, I think, most other people here.