Who Would Jesus Deport?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:01 PM

What would Jesus say about organized labor, collective bargaining and fair compensation?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 06:13 PM

Yeah, Teribus, I learned that recently, when I set out to re-learn the song as newly relevant in post-Katrinas New Orleans. (I had performed it years ago, but forgotten the complete lyrics over the intervening years.) I read the name of the fellow who put the words to the melody we now know, but can't remember him right now.

"Deportees" is notable not only because Woody wrote it as a poem (or a disembodied lyric), but also because it can be regarded as his final composition. Or, at least, some people contend that it is.

He wrote it in the late '40s, not long after the actual event in Los Gatos Canyon, and perhaps the reason for his never having put it to music is that his neurological condition was already starting to deteriorate. Maybe, maybe not, but sources that I recently read on the Internet (not absolutely trustworthy, of course, I know) contend that he never wrote another such poem or lyric, and certainly no words-and-music song, after "Deportees."

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:59 PM

PoppaGator, as far as "Deportees" goes, IIRC, although written by Woody Guthrie, I do not think he ever performed it, or knew of it as a song, he sort of chanted it as a poem. It was not until he was wheeled into a Folk Festival somewhere in the US in 1958 or 1959 that he heard it performed as we would all recognise it now. Someone else put the tune to it, I will not be able to find out who that was until Monday.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:58 PM

"I won't put your bumper sticker on my vehicle because I don't want people to think I sanction Jesus as a spiritual leader or a prophet or see him as an example. Sally."

Sally, this point is a good one. However, I actually don't see Jesus as a spiritual leader either. But he is considered by Americans to be the model that THEY choose to base their moral decisions on. So forcing Mitt Romney (for example) and his followers to ask what THEIR moral leader would do is, I think, very appropriate.

So I hope you'll get one of my stickers. They're free, and the will force more people to think about compassion in the immigration debate.

And, hey, that's all I'm really saying with the Website, let's keep compassion in the dialogue, however we feel about the issue and the proposed solutions. I am dismayed at the mean spiritedness of the debate and would love to see that change.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:54 PM

When someone complains about newcomers to this country it makes me want to ask how long ago their ancestors got here.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:50 PM

I will definitely be in touch, Steve. This is one of the most important issues out there. I believe it is a red herring, and that the problem is not much worse than it has ever been. I often chuckle at young Irish Americans that complain about this issue. When I asked why, I point out that the story of the hispanic immigrants is their story. I point out that it immigration, legal and illegal, is what this country was built on. I point out that the immigrant groups working in these jobs has always been the case.

This is nothing more than a modern day incarnation of the Know Nothings. Instead of Irish Catholics, it is the Mexican laborer that is being vilified.

I am currently writing, at the suggestion of one of the best lyricists I know (Jeri), a series of songs about the issue, one of which has a working title of "It's Your Story".

Mick

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:40 PM

artbrooks - I pretty much agree with you, but I suspect that if American inudstry had to pay the immigrant laborers a fair wage an benefits, there wouldn't be nearly the demand for their services.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:40 PM

Mexico has made rapid strides in health care.
Dr. Richard Horton, physician and editor of the "Lancet," says, "The Mexican health reform has been a global laboratory for proving how to give access to a range of vital services to the entire population."
The Lancet is perhaps the premier medical journal in the UK.
Mexican health

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:33 PM

As SRS said earlier, the problem isn't illegal immigration, it is that the people who want to migrate to the US (that is migrate, not immigrate) to work and support their families at home are faced with horrendous difficulties getting here and than don't go home again because they don't want to face that journey again. Yes, we have had guest worker programs in the past in the US - the bracero program was notorious for the high level of skimming and kickbacks by/to the labor contractors and for the low pay and poor working conditions experienced by the workers themselves. The key to ending illegal immigration isn't fines, fences and massive deportations, it is a guest worker program that works, that pays the individual a wage and provides benefits equal to those earned by a citizen doing the same work, that allows him/her to pay into (and later collect) Social Security and that provides positive incentives for returning home.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 05:13 PM

In respect to your post of 11 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM , John...

Yes, you're right. The Canadian health care system, though a good one on the whole, does have some deficiencies. This could probably be said of any nation's health care system. There are always some improvements that can and shoud be made.

For example: We badly need public health insurance to cover the costs of dental care.

And that's just one area in need of improvement.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:57 PM

I looked up Mexican health care. It seems to be based on their social security system, so that only people working in some kinds of professions are covered. The article I read said only about half of the people are covered.
               My best guess is--and this is only a guess--the folks coming across the border to work in the states fall in the 50% who are not covered.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM

No - Just the bigots among us.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:44 PM

I sure do, they keep coming across the border and crowding into emergency rooms for healthcare when they have it for free living at home. I would think anybody would get pissed over that.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:40 PM

So - Rig - It sounds like you have a problem with people of color.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:35 PM

...or wait until Mexico has universal health care...

Don't they already have it?

I was in an auto accident in the Sonora desert back in about 1973 or 74. I was taken to a hospital, got a few stitches put into the top of my head, was kept under observation for an hour or so, and released. My three traveling companions also received whatever medical attention they required.

None of us were charged a penny, even though we were obviously not Mexican citizens and might easily have been seen as "rich Americans." We were, indeed, white Americans who could afford to travel (just barely), and were undoubtedly more affluent than most Mexicans, but we could not have paid for the services we received if the accident had occurred north of the border. Not easily, anyway, and certainly not on the spot.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:33 PM

"While we're up in arms about Mexicans { aka "the Boogieman } coming across the border we're ignoring bigger problems."


                  Yes, we could have Rastifarrians coming in from Jamaica!

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:24 PM

Why does no one seem to show the same concern for the Canadian border? Why do all of these nonbigoted people only show concern about the Mexican border?

But we're all falling into the same trap. The neo-cons in this country WANT us to be upset about immigration problems. It's the old shell game. While we're up in arms about Mexicans { aka "the Boogieman } coming across the border we're ignoring bigger problems. I suggest we re-read Steves inital post.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:22 PM

I don't think Jesus was fond of uncircumsized Philistines...or the Romans...or the ARM sub prime money lenders.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:20 PM

I suspect that Jesus being the sort he was he would be inclined to deport the Pharisees, the Philistines, the money-changers and usurers, and perhaps them imperialist fascist types. He was good at seeing through folks, according to legend, and would not be fooled by sanctimony or lip-service. Nor would he be at all inclined to kick out folks who wanted honest labor and pay to feed their children.


A

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:14 PM

RE: Health care: "So the answer, obviously, is to make it available everywhere, isn't it?"


                   LH - Yes! That is the answer, and I'm all for it. But we'd either have to seal off the border--keeping in mind that Mexico is a conduit for all points south--or wait until Mexico has universal health care before the US can put it into play here.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM

Little Hawk, you're probably correct that there isn't a large influx of people to participate in the Canadian Health Care System. But there are Canadians who come to the US for procedures that they cannot get at all, or have a long waiting period to get at home. So the Canadian system has deficiencies also.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:02 PM

Incidentally:

My sister and brother-in-law are professors of political science at the University of Illinois, and are in New Orleans this week attending a professional/academic meeting.

They passed along the following information, from a paper presented at the meeting yesterday or the day before:

A study of US communities formerly tolerant of undocumented workers shows that the crime rate always begins rising to a significant extent immediately upon institution of an immigration "crackdown."

The reason is that decent hardworking people who formerly cooperated with police to solve crimes in their economically-disadvantged neighborhhoods suddenly find themselves in a position where the cops are their enemies. Less communication, fewer arrests and prosecutions, more criminals remaining on the streets with increasingly emboldened attitudes.

The basically virtuous character of the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens should not be ignored. As has already been noted above, these folks almost invariably exhibit a much stronger work ethic than homegrown American hirelings, are more productive, require less supervision, etc.

Also, even among those who might not be as virtuous as others, they know they're "illegal" and subject to prosecution, deportation, etc., and therefore are not wont to draw attention to themselves by antisocial behavior. Almost invaraibly, the only thing "illegal" about such individuals is their immigration status.

For non-citizens, the vast majority of our undocumented guest workers are pretty damn good citizens.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:00 PM

Thank you Silly, you corrected my most cogent point ...myriad. I'll try to be more careful in the future. BTW, 'ye' in my last post should be 'yes'. I hope I caught that before you did.

We all know that this is a problem with many causes and villains. It needs repair. Repairs don't always solve a problem completely in one fell swoop. But we have to start somewhere. Then we have to take the next step, and the next until the problem is under control. We don't cease prosecuting bank robbers because there will be yet other bank robbers to take their place...and other banks to rob, for instance. Why should illegal immigration be different from other illegal activities?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:58 PM

We HAVE universal health care in Canada, Rinslinger. The world has not poured in and swamped our system. They also have totally free (and very good) health care in Cuba and they have universal national health care plans in place in most of western Europe. The world has not poured in and swamped them yet either.

Still, you have a point about Oregon...of a sort. If one makes something that's very worthwhile available in a place, and it's not available in a place that's right next door, people will certainly come in in droves to enjoy it, true. So the answer, obviously, is to make it available everywhere, isn't it?

And how does one begin to do that? By beginning at home, where one has the power to do so.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:58 PM

Wesley - I've already said. Illegal immigration has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. You would only want to control runaway immigration if you wanted to solve most of the other problems.


    "Riginslinger, the state of health care in the U.S. is a disgrace, as is the state of American education..."

            I agree, and illegal immigration is rapidly making it worse.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:50 PM

Q, it is not,[repeat is not] about immigration. It is about ILLEGAL immigration!

Many years ago, before 1964, California had a wonderful (not a perfect) way to employ Mexican farm workers. They would come in, work, and then when the planting or harvests were completed go back home with more money than they would have earned in Mexico.

I know of few people who are against a regularized immigration of foreign workers when locals cannot fill all the slots. I know from news reports that in the Los Angeles area, Blacks were the largest group of dry wall hangers, and making about $18.00/hr, not a munificent sum today. With illegal immigrant labor, the rate has dropped to about $12.00/hr. At a nuclear power plant in California, it had been found that a large proportion of maintenance painters provided by a labor contractor were illegally working foreigners. There is no shortage of qualified painters in southern California.

Should the workers be deported? I think so. Should the labor contractor be punished? Severely.

We had an illegal immigrant amnesty during the Reagan administration. Well it didn't work. No one acted on the penalty provisions that were supposed to follow the amnesty. It became just one big, scofflaw joke. Do you wonder there is a problem, and ye, it is a problem with illegal immigration now?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:36 PM

John on the Sunset Coast wrote: Nice straw man about taxes, SB. Sales taxes cover a myriad of local services, not just health care, which illegal immigrants use also.

Riginslinger wrote: What happened was, many people who couldn't get health care in some other place moved to Oregon and swamped the system. That's exactly what would happen with national health care. Look at the way illegal immigrants have swamped the schools.

Sales tax is just a small part of the equation. Taxes collected by employers from illegal workers are never refunded to those illegal workers. Social Security paid by illegal workers will never be collected by those illegal workers. You can't dismiss the tax issue as a "straw man," to the contrary, this is an aspect of the illegal immigrant situation that is usually not disclosed by the Bush crowd. Oh, and by the way, it isn't "a myriad of." It's just "myriad."

Riginslinger, the state of health care in the U.S. is a disgrace, as is the state of American education. Where else but in a nation where corporations work to enact hugely beneficial legislation would "universal health care" be a plan where everyone, even the poor, would be required to buy health insurance from private or supposedly "non-profit" companies (i.e., Blue Cross/Blue Shield)? The offer of a tax break or credit is the bait and switch of it--a company gets richer by collecting premiums and the government collects less tax. Whose fault is it if we fall for this shell game year after year?

Step back for a moment. People who don't have the money to begin with are asked to pay cash into the pockets of insurance companies. Pure profit as long as no one is sick in the family, and if someone is sick, you can bludgeon them by forcing high co-pays on consumers and bludgeon doctors by forcing them to accept much smaller payments than they actually charge (my doctor stopped taking my health BC/BS insurance plan for this reason.) If the "insurance" companies were taken out of the picture then you could work out a more equitable and cost-effective universal health plan. Oregon just didn't get it right or was in the wrong position when they put it into play for it to work. Don't blame illegal aliens and the poor for the Oregon failure.

Same goes for schools. Until the U.S. as a whole gets serious about education and starts funding it the way it needs to be funded, schools are going to do everything they can to cut corners.

I won't put your bumper sticker on my vehicle because I don't want people to think I sanction Jesus as a spiritual leader or a prophet or see him as an example. For me he's a historic figure, period. Invoking his name in this fight just brings up a different argument for some of us.

SRS

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:02 PM

Rig - Wow - thats your answer? It matters what side of the border the people live on? And I notice you're mostly concerned about the people from Latin America. Why?

Keep going. How will the immigration issue affect the war in Iraq?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 03:01 PM

Millions of people listen to the mindless screaming of Lou Dobbs and his ilk on CNN and other so-called news channels.
I have little faith in the paranoid responses of many U. S. citizens.

In my city of 1 million (Canada), 20% are foreign-born. We could use a lot more.

Poppagator, Hispanic construction workers from Mexico and Central America, coming on work visas, are in demand here as well but there are too few to fill the need. They know how to work with their hands and tools and need little supervision. Good luck in the rebuilding and repopulation of NO.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:49 PM

"OK Rig. I'll bite. Play connect the dots for me. How will solving the illegal immigration "problem" resolve the situation in Iraq and global warming? I wanna hear this one."


                   Well, to solve the war in Iraq, you'd have to get rid of the idiot that started it, but that wasn't on John's list.

                   I live in Oregon. A few years back they tried to put in state-wide health care here. What happened was, many people who couldn't get health care in some other place moved to Oregon and swamped the system. That's exactly what would happen with national health care. Look at the way illegal immigrants have swamped the schools.

                  As far as global warming, that's a no brainer. More people simply put more demand on resources. Bringing a bunch of poor people from Latin America and turning them into United States super consumers will make the current rate of global warming look insignificant.

                The biggest problem with the current immigration debate is, the globalists are encouraged to leave the environmental issues out of it.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:48 PM

Hey, Wesley S, ya caught me! I really don't want SB to have free speech! Get real!

Nice straw man about taxes, SB. Sales taxes cover a myriad of local services, not just health care, which illegal immigrants use also.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:37 PM

And that's a great question from Wesley. We're standing by for a response.
sb

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:36 PM

"SB - thank you for slamming the American electorate."

Oops, sorry to offend, but it's true, I have little faith in the ability of the American public to see thru bullshit. We are easily manipulated and have a distaste for political substance. The American electorate is unsophisticated, easily swayed by emotion, unable to process data, hungry for simplistic explanations and distasteful of complexity, and generally unable and unwilling to understand issues. (Has anyone noticed how much of the election coverage is devoted to style, and so little to substance? The experts know that is all we can handle.)

And by the way, immigrants are such a TINY percentage of health care costs, especially when one considers all the taxes they pay (ie. sales tax), that I think anyone who believes they are causing serious economic problems belongs in the category of voter I describe in the previous paragraph.

sb

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:30 PM

"You can't solve any of the above mentioned problems, and a whole lot of others, unless you solve the problem of illegal immigration first"

OK Rig. I'll bite. Play connect the dots for me. How will solving the illegal immigration "problem" resolve the situation in Iraq and global warming? I wanna hear this one.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:26 PM

Perhaps we should all pause and give a listen to Woody Guthrie on this issue:

Deportees

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM

Right on! It would also be socially just and responsible. The thing to do with sick people is heal them, not put legal and financial impediments in the way of doing so.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:25 PM

You mean Whom, of course...

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM

Slamming the American electorate is the American way. It's called Freedom of Speech.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:22 PM

"WHY is it the hot issue today... Because they can't solve Iraq, health care, economy, global warming, etc etc..."


                   Exactly! John on the Coast is right on this one. You can't solve any of the above mentioned problems, and a whole lot of others, unless you solve the problem of illegal immigration first.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:21 PM

OK John, your points are well taken and deserve a more serious effort at refutation.

People from other countries would not be coming to the US were it not for the fact that seriously monied individuals and companies/corporations are eager to hire them. Agribusiness has long been the most obvious exploiter of illegal labor, but they're not alone.

To the limited extent that undocumentated laborers and their families may manage to receive public benefits funded by taxpayers, the effect is to subsidize the employers who are responsible for attracting these workers and who are evading any responsibility for providing them with compensation and benefits that most of us consider to be "normal."

Such employers, of course, are the primary beneficiaries and proponents of contemporary right-wing politics. Is it necessary to point out the hypocrisy?

Actually, I feel a certain degree of agreement with this particular application of laissez-faire economics. The system is wildly illogical, inconsistent, and unjust, but it works really well as a way to get certain kinds of work done cheaply and efficiently. The currently ongoing house-by-house rebuilding of New Orleans, for example, would not be remotely possible if undocumented Hispanic workers were not available to the typical cash-strapped homeowner who has been royally screwed by the insurance companies that reported record profits in 2005 despite the hurricane-damage claims that they should have paid out.

Irrational demands to "build a wall and keep 'em out" are simply unrealistic. The American economy would fall apart without the contributions of these undercompensated workers. Political campaigning that emphasizes this "issue" is very rarely anything more than fearmongering, and it indeed does distract the public from more substantive issues.

As far as health care is concerned, if we were indeed to have a simple single-payer system like the rest of the industrialized world, the simplest and cheapest policy would be to care for everyone, regardless of citizenship (just like other countries do for visiting Americans). Eliminating the huge amounts of money spent on red tape and on the effort to deny health care whenever possible, even to Ameicans with paid-up insurance coverage, would free up plenty of resources to allow doctors and nurses to do their jobs.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:19 PM

SB - thank you for slamming the American electorate. That's pretty smug of you. BTW, I don't speak for Jesus, and I don't read his ancient mind...maybe you do. But it makes a good bumper sticker. My 17 year old niece also speaks bumper stickerese. It sounds good, and she doesn't have to have ideas of her own.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:13 PM

There will always be a huge illegal immigration problem with poor populations trying to get into richer societies...as long as there is gross economic inequality remaining in the world. Keep in mind that Big Business wants that gross economic equality to be perpetuated so that they can move their manufacturing and labor jobs to countries where where the labor is dirt cheap. Those countries can (usually) be controlled by keeping them under the rule of rich bullies with large armies and police forces, and those bullies are also the friends of big business worldwide. If a country refuses to play ball with Big Business, then it can be invaded, destablilized or embargoed into submission...

See the magnitude of the problem? It's not just a problem existing within the borders of the USA. It's a world problem, and it has to do with the haves (the very rich) and the have-nots. It's the same problem the world has been facing for the last several thousand years. Further excuses will be found to arrest, deport, and kill the less cooperative have-nots, I assure you.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

Q, Amen, lots of bigotry and scare tactics. I think John overestimates the sophistication of the American voter. Easily diverted from substance by scary stories.

Immigration is no more a problem now than it was ten years ago. WHY is it the hot issue today for the Republicans? Because they can't solve Iraq, health care, economy, global warming, etc etc. Americans unite best when they perceive an evil bogeyman in their midst, be it a commie or an Islamofacist, now the Repubs are trying to scare us with the horde of illegals.

Bumper stickers anyone? They're free.

sb

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:09 PM

I notice that no one ever talked about building a wall on the Canadian border. But the primaries aren't over yet.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 02:07 PM

If Mexican (in particular) labor was able to come to the U.S. to work a lot of people might be surprised to learn that they'd go home when they could. Most people have a fondness for the place where they grew up and they want to stay there. Given the best of both worlds, many who are illegal today would come and go happily and legally if they were given the opportunity. And when you read about not just the horrors of getting across the border but also of the horrific trip up the length of Mexico, those coming to work here would be better served to save their money for a ticket to ride IN the train (and not on top or on an undercarriage) and walk or ride across, not pay a coyote to direct them to swim or hike, or die.

SRS

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:56 PM

A lot of bigotry involved in the 'illegal' immigration nonsense. With the U. S. birthrate dropping, and unemployment near record lows nationally, illegals should be welcomed.
Wake up! Manufacturing jobs lost to a globalizing world economy will never be regained.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:45 PM

The right is not hijacking the immigration issue; it is leading the fight against illegal immigration. The health care issue is part and parcel of the illegal immigration issue. The economy is part and parcel of the illegal immigration immigration issue. Perhaps the etc. has roots in the illegal immigration issue, too. Does that divert your attention away from the war in Iraq...perhaps you need a better attention span.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:40 PM

PS: Steve, isn't it about time you joined up and elevated yourself from GUEST status?

It's free, it's easy, you can send and receive PMs, and you won't have to type your name every time you post...

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:39 PM

Steve, I'm with you on this one. I'm glad to see you agree with Jesus, even if you don't believe in His divinity.

Seriously: I realize that I've been pouring on a good bit of disagreement over that "Amazing Grace" issue, but I certainly realize that you and I share quite a few (other) common values and opinions.

This whole "issue" of immigration is such a load of horse hockey, and it is indeed useful to right-wing candidates and pundits almost exclusively for its value as a distraction from real problems.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 01:34 PM

I don't think it would be in his nature to deport anyone, but he did kick the moneylenders out of the temple...

So maybe he would kick the lobbyists out of the political process, that's what I'm thinking.