Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:56 AM

Examples of the obnoxious rich interfering with education and health.

Sorry to say this wld, you have stated quite categorically that the obnoxious rich interfere with health and education.

Now speaking as someone who has just been elevated to the "obnoxious" by "The watcher", and as someone who hopefully will be further advanced by the self same "watcher" to being obnoxiously rich, I feel as though I have an axe to grind.

You still haven't given any examples of the "obnoxious rich interfering with education and health".

The one example that you did give with a name hung on it was Keith Josef. Excuse me but wasn't he Minister of Education at the time? We still do not know which "obnoxious rich" person was responsible for the closure of the hospital that you mention.

Conservative/Labour Cabinet Minister's interfering with Health and Education provided those are their portfolios is one thing.

Senior Civil Servants working in the respective Ministry's of Health and Education interfering with Health and Education is another.

What has NEVER happened is that nobody, who could be remotely described as being "obnoxiously rich", or otherwise, who is unconnected professionally or politically to the Government/Government Ministry/Parliament having ever interfered with Health or Education.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 08:22 AM

PS you're quite right, my feelings about Blair are visceral rather than cerebral

just cos I vote for him doesn't mean I want hin sitting next to me in the cinema

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 08:20 AM

Teribus - you just make feel like telling you to go and suck something organic. you simply haven't a clue.

we used to have an orthopaedic hospital called harlow Wood round here. It was brilliant. the staff had been working there for years - some of the porters got paid next to nothing - they couldn't afford to use the the staff canteen. but they were really skilled at lifting people with arthritis and painful joints. brilliant guys - i don't suppose they had had the inspirational teachers, and escaped their sink communities - but they were great human beings.

it was replaced by a ward in a big hospital complex. then some beds in a ward. then its nowhere. the hospital itself is a row of executive housing.

When I was teaching, which wasn't that long ago . Most of the schools didn't have decent up to date text books. they had all sorts 'initiatives' - particularly when Keith Joseph's ideas were still being called 'radical' - instead of the more accurate description of flipping stupid. one room was full of directives on how to mark a test they weren't quite sure but they later decided not to give the kids. When I say a roomful - I mean an entire room chest high with printed verbiage. some idiot had been well paid to write. some idiot had been paid to print and publish. the funds which were needed for books were hi-jacked by people of indeterminate class, but they weren't from round here.

I don't know where you've spent your life, and how you come to be on this folk music site. but you don't seem to know much about how folk live. I wonder how you are on music.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 07:45 AM

1. "There's plenty to back up a dislike of Blair.

And all of it purely subjective opinion.

2. "He's creepy religious."

Subjective opinion, impossible to substantiate or verify.

3. "He sends young men off to fight and die in wars that he would never in a million years deem important enough for his own sons to fight in."

Again subjective opinion, wld you have got no idea at all what would happen if any of Tony Blair's sons joined up - True? Pure conjecture on your part.

4. "Stuff like education and health still gets decided by the obnoxious rich,"

A definitive statement, backed up by what? Give us some examples of the obnoxious rich interfering with education and health. The only people I have seen messing about with education in England have been the stalwarts of the Labour Party who for some reason decided to completely destroy the Grammer Schools to be replaced by what exactly? They never had a bloody clue, all part of their "class war" bullshit. Funny though the number of those wreckers who had availed themselves of a grammer school education, almost the same form of hypocracy as not letting anyone own their own homes (IIRC Wilson owned five at the time).

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:35 AM

sorry about these brief replies - I was on my way out to a folk club.

Theres plenty to back up a dislike of Blair. He's creepy religious. He sends young men off to fight and die in wars that he would never in a million years deem important enough for his own sons to fight in. Stuff like education and health still gets decided by the obnoxious rich, rather than doctors and teachers - people who are in it for the long haul, even more than patients and parents.

The only thing that makes Blair better than the tories is that he's not bankrolled by asset strippers, and city wide boys. But that is a very very big one. There are probably other things as well.

As for myself, when I quit teaching proper to look after my disabled wife. I occasionally was forced by financial necassity to do supply contracts. I taught in dozens of schools, like the ones I describe to some extent. Most of the time I didn't even get to choose what I was teaching - let alone inspire people like Goodbye Mr Chips. I'm sure there were inspiring teachers around, but I certainly wasn't one of them - I was probably too immersed in my own personal misery.

For too long though, education in this country has been something to help you escape your community, rise above it. Most people don't want to do this - schools and colleges relentlessly let them down. They lack the wisdom and decency of ordinary people.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:09 PM

PS One of my pupils that I taught to play guitar helped to andplayed lead guitar on a number one record and invited me to see him blow the room away at Rock City in Nottingham.

What did you do in the war Daddy?

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:49 PM

Shouldn't think so, I was a supply teacher paying off a credit card. they weren't sinks. the communities just got something out of school that wasn't on the national curriculum. like I say, if you can't be interested in people and situations - you won't understand them. And that makes you not the person to be suggesting solutions.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 01:11 PM

"Teribus the most obnoxious poster on this Site" - courtesy of one who styles himself, or herself, "The watcher" - Oooooooooooooo!!!!! Now isn't that just totally ludicrous or what!! Must admit though it did give me possibly the best laugh I've had all year.

The whole thing is dead simple, if you are going to come out with the usual completely outrageous leftist, anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-Blair, anti-this, anti-whatever, clap-trap and expect it to be just taken at face value - think again. Provide some form of substantiation for it. You all believe it, you all so vociferously defend it. But for some strange reason, there's never anything to back it all up, when challenged, that stands up to the slightest, most superficial examination. And once that point is reached the personal attacks and insults start flying.

I just can't wait to hear what Akenaton's definition of REAL FREEDOM is. When it comes it might just knock "The watchers" effort (quoted above) off the top spot for laughs of the year. I won't be holding my breath on it. But I do hope that it doesn't involve him daubing his face white and blue in good old Mel Gibson tradition.

Tell me Al, as a teacher, in this "sink" that you describe, and that I, supposedly, am incapable of understanding, did you ever inspire so much a single pupil?

By the bye, the lure of the pit was money, same way as in my area the lure of the mills was money, attractive prospect to a young lad who couldn't be bothered at school, leave at 15 and go and "work and play" with the men. I knew hundreds, but then I was lucky, throughout my time in school/college/university, I was lucky enough to encounter at least one teacher, a remarkable Rector and a Tutor and Lecturer that were all truly inspirational.

Funny that you mentioned Waterloo, because one of those inspirational men had a theory not so much about Waterloo exactly but about Napoleon's so-called 100 days and the Waterloo campaign. he said historically it was like a "Goldfish Bowl". Such a concentrated period of time that had had so much written about it by people who were knowledgable, had been there, and had participated, from all different sides and perspectives. He reckoned that you could teach almost anything from it.

On the game side of things the really odd thing about Waterloo is that Wellington very rarely wins, if ever. In exactly the same way that in gaming the Second World War once Russia is attacked Hitler never wins. I have never gamed Waterloo, we did the Second World War and various seperate campaigns relating to it as staff exercises in training, it was the "Cold War" and maybe they thought we might get something out of it. People training for the last war fought, no not really, it was pretty much accepted that on land, Guderian's tactics in defence would still have held good, particularly taking into account how West Germany had been developed and built up, although Sir John Hackett could explain that much better than I.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:23 AM

Don't start me off about Libya!
When the American bombers bombed Tripoli way back in the mid 1980s they missed Ghaddafi but killed or maimed dozens of innocents including a baby called Hannah. What did she have to do with terrorism?
And then of course there is Daviv Shaylers assertion that the British secret service funded an islamic terror group to blow up Ghaddafi car convoy in the late 1990s.They predictably missed but again killed and wounded innocent people .
As for sheltering terrorists or unsavoury characters the USA has been doing that for years..the notable one that springs to mind is Juan Posada who escaped from a Venezuelan jail after being convicted of blowing up a cuban passenger plane.He is now in the USA living the life of a free man.
And lets not kid oursdelves about Chirac..he is a right wing character but the crime of Iraq is not his...lets look a little closer to home for that culprit.
albert

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 07:55 AM

yes i knew you'd say that albert. please try and engage with what I'm saying - rather than the standard 'dial a lefty' response. obviously if you're kids have been killed in the war - the bloke who ordered them out into action isn't going to be your favourite person.

the point is surely that both parties likely to hold office thought along the same lines as Blair. and face the facts, nobody holding Galloway's views was looked on as an electoral asset. just get your head round this stuff.

The bombers who brought Gaddafi to heel had to fly round France. theres nothing very smart about what France did. they sheltered Khomeini for twenty years and then let him pollute the world oceans of politics by dumping the bastard on the world without a moments thought. gallic shrugs of irresponsibility to one and all, and let the world swim through the merde.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: GUEST,ALBERT
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 06:24 AM

Blair and principles? Now there is a contradiction that could form a whole new thread!

Chirac ,a right wing president of France, refused to join the invasion of Iraq despite living in a world of "real politick".
Blair took the plunge and took this country to war and the result has been carnage without end.

Principles ?? Tell that to Rose Gentle , mother of trooper Gordon Gentle, who stood outside Downing St with other members of Military Families Against The War as Blair drove off for the last time.
Blair ....surely Bliar?
Albert

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:51 AM

would you prefer Northern Irekand still in flames and a tory party in Paisley's pocket still in power? Would you prefer enormous levels of unemployment (and the social ills that brings), as the tory's rich friends get kickbacks for exporting jobs?

If a principled man like Blair found himself in the position of having to join Bush's military campaign, then it must have been a reality of power. Something you never get to find out about, if a enough of you vote for Galloway and his like. All you get is their damn silly speeches about what they'd do if we lived in sort of vacuum.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:29 AM

I agree with Ake.GG promised his electorate in Bow that he would only stand for one term in that constituency in order to defeat the pro war New Labour Oona King.

He has kept his promise and will not seek reelection at Bow at the next general election.

However he has announced that he will seek the nomination of the Respcet Coalition to stand as its candidate in the neighbouring Poplar and Bow constituency , a seat currently held by New Labour's Jim Fitzpatrick .

Fitzpatrick is pro war,pro ID cards and a supporter of the replacement for multibillion pound Trident nuclear weapons system.He is also a supporter of the new foundation hospitals.

GG by contrast was an opponent of the war,is opposed to nuclear weapons,is opposed to ID cards because they infringe our civil liberties and is a supporter of the NHS.

GG will be supported by local firefighters .Fitzpatrick,who spoke out against his former colleagues during their dispute will struggle to find anyone in the public sector who will go out of their way to vote for his reelection.
albert

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 01:45 AM

Sorry Al... but at the end of the day nobody trusted Blair, thats why he was forced from office.
George Galloway is a politician and a human being, like most of us ego driven, so he's obviously not perfect.

But.... Think back to the run up to war, who was the man saying the unsayable. It took a brave man to adopt George's stance...with no chance of anything to gain personally.

George is one of the most accomplished speakers in politics, if he is also a liar and an oppertunist, why did he not join the ranks of New Labour years ago...His chances of political advancement would have been greatly enhanced.....He might even have been in the frame to succeed Mr Blair....Ake

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:11 PM

The word I would choose is not obnoxious, but VERY VERY VERY judgemental.

If he had been a jew in Auschwitz, they wouldn't have gassed him. If he had been a teacher in a mining village, he would have paid no heed to the antipathy of a community to a culture that that had short changed and shit on them from the dawn of time. No doubt he would have built the pyramids square and installed central heating and double glazing. probably a great idea, but for some reason those people at that point in history didn't take that course.

it was the sort of thing that caused Divis Sweeney to run off with the screaming hab dabs. I know it was difficult on those Northern Ireland threads - all these Yanks going Erin Go Braugh every five minutes. But here was someone talking from a point of view which not many of us were familiar with.

Could we have a sensible conversation. No bloody chance - all these streams of incontravertible government facts - this about a campaign where both sides were up to their oxters in covert and secret activity - so no one KNEW for certain what the facts of the matter were. But here was someone who could have told us what it was about on the ground - what motivated his beliefs.

Having said all that - I still think you'd be as well trusting Blair as George Galloway. So if theres a side in this debate - I'm with Teribus.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: GUEST,The watcher.
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:10 AM

WLD, Sound advice to Teribus the most obnoxious poster on this Site, but it won`t be heeded.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 03:27 AM

To me you're both different sides of the same coin.

You are looking for simplistic answers.

Both of you seem to accept Tony Blair's explanaton for doing what he did.

One says he was right - maybe. One says he was wrong - definitely.

The actual facts of this matter are surely something to speculate, rather than argue about.

If you think an exotic bird of passage like George will have the answers on a card in his beak, you are wrong Akenaton.

Terribus - your lack of interest in understanding everything about why people acted the way they did in everything from the holocaust to the miner's strike should send up warning signs to you. You have no empathy for politics. You just don't understand it. Its not your subject. Its all to do with human beings. You would be better off spending your time playing those games where you re-fight the battle of Waterloo. You can be Napoleon and do all the silly things he did. And add some of your own. I'm told its fun.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 02:21 AM

Not necessarily!

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 12:34 AM

200 Up.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 12:33 AM

Now that is about what I would expect.

Have EVER made any attempt to READ what the original Report said?

Do you really think that MAY HAVE = DID?

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 05:45 PM

Pathetic!!

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 05:14 PM

No Akenaton, there have been two reports the first stating that 500,000 Iraqi civilians MAY HAVE died was published in the British Medical Journal, "The Lancet", in October 2004, whether or not the timing of its release was meant to influence the Presidential Election of that year I do not know. The figures arrived at and how they were ascertained were considered highly suspect at the time.

The second report as you say came out just over a year ago with figures of 650,000 which both the Iraqi Government and Iraq Body Count questioned. The figures given in the first report were attributed to US bombing, in the second they changed tack and put them down to sectarian violence and the actions of insurgents plus US bombing.

Now when you take into account that one week of almost constant carpet bombing of the city of Hamburg during the Second World War with raids involving over one thousand bombers per raid, which caused a firestorm the likes of which have never been seen since. That managed to kill just under 150,000 people. Reporters on the ground in Baghdad reported casualty rates of one tenth those of the bombing campaign that preceded "Desert Storm". Therefore the figures arrived at by the John Hopkins "batch samping" exercise I tend to view with the greatest scepticism.

None of this affects Gorgeous George he just trots out the lie that 650,000 Iraqis have been killed, which equates to about eleven and a half years of his pal Saddam's rule (Saddam ruled for 24).

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 05:06 PM

Not at all wld. I respect your point of view and can see you're an all round "good egg".

I for one don't imagine that goodness should be mistaken for weakness...Ake

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 03:58 PM

I seem to be the common nub of disagreement in this thread.


All I can say is Terribus, you have to live through these situations before you understand them. Existentially you are quite correct, we always have a choice. I think all this proves is that Jean-Paul Sartre was a bit of a twat.

As for Akenaton's points. i think EVERYBODY with a grain of sense knew we on to a hiding to nothing - certainly our leaders did. So now the question is, why we did it. The reasons were many and complex and only politicians who are a bit dishonest pretend otherwise.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 03:23 PM

Teribus.... The John Hopkins report was published almost one year ago.
Maybe you hadn't noticed, but Iraqis have been dying in large numbers ever since.

When did YOU stop counting?.....was it when your hero Mr Bush announced that the war was over?


Interesting piece in today's Times from that mouthpiece of the "loony left" Mr M Portillo.
He reckons that the mission by UK troops in Iraq has become "pointless" (surprise surprise)
"The Army will soon be confined to Basra airbase". "The death toll rises as the mission shrinks". "It is the enemy who is becoming more sophisticated".

"Britain seems determined to cold shoulder the war,the casualty figures are intensifying the country's disgust"

"Lack of support on the home front is also a problem, Servicmen on home leave are sometimes abused for being part of the Iraq War"
Shurely Shome Mishtake!! The ones who should be abused are the US and UK govts.....and their armchair supporters on Mudcat (2left)

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 02:30 PM

"Al...This discussion has gone far away from George Galloway.
Teribus thinks all is well with the world...I do not, while we sit on our arses and allow some lunatic to make us complicit in the deaths of more than half a million men women and children."

Well no actually it has not Akenaton - It is all encapsulated in that quote from your post above. Front and centre in Respects Manifesto is - "the deaths of more than half a million men women and children" - that is a lie.

Not even the people from John Hopkins who wrote the report said that - Gorgeous George did.

Myths, half-truths, misrepresentations and downright lies that is Gorgeous George's coin, and gullible fools such as you swallow them hook, line and sinker.

TO WLD:
No Al, I disagree entirely there is absolutely nothing abstract about self help, and taking responsibility for ones own life.

"I just pointed out that poor sods being marched to the gas chamber didn't have much choice. You could say the same about the gulags."

But at the same time you refuse to acknowledge that while they did not have much of a choice, they still had a choice. If someone told me to march into a Gas Chamber I am damn certain that I would not do it - So what if they shoot me! how much time does my meek compliance buy, 30 minutes, I'd rather have the self satisfaction of knowing that at least I'd had a go at the bastards.

Oh yes, Thatcher's economic miracle, I lived through and remembered the run up to that, by all means tell us of those halcyon, idyllic days that preceded her landslide election victory in 1979. If memory served me correctly the country was on the bones of its arse and had just gone to the IMF for a loan just in order to survive the next six months. Rampant inflation, sky-high unemployment and trade union leaders dictating to the elected government of the country what was going to happen and when.

Funny that none of her policies were ever rescinded, odd that the governments of damn near every country in Europe adopted her self same methods.

So compassion and economic aid are the cure all are they Al? While you might think it sensible to have British industry and every family in the land subsidising the life cycle of your beloved Nottinghamshire mining villages in order that you continue bimbling through life with thumb in bum and mind in neutral, others quite correctly did not. Coal, fuel, power for homes and industry from the British pits put the price per ton to produce at £75, you could get the stuff delivered from Poland, or Australia for £8 a ton.

You were a teacher you say. And you come out with this absolute gem - "The only real success stories were the kids who had become drug dealers. These are places where the kids traditionally switched off from education - not in a challenging unfriendly way - but they knew they were going down the pit, like their Dads - and the girls knew they were going to marry miners - and so did the teachers."

No bloody wonder, if you and the likes of you were teaching them with that sort of attitude. Just going through the motions, marking time, there would be no point in sending in any "hot shot headmaster", apparently you, and likes of you, by your own account, had already totally given up.

Yes Al, there have been times and places in history where hope seems to have been sucked out of the situation. And frankly on every such occasion the people have overcome their difficulties in one way or another and risen above it.

Unfortunately for those on the left it is always dependent on "compassion" and "economic aid" supplied by others in order to maintain the untenable until the next disaster strikes and more "compassion" and "economic aid" is required. Trouble was the likes of the John Harvey Joneses were never listened to by those who should have known better.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:41 PM

Al...This discussion has gone far away from George Galloway.
Teribus thinks all is well with the world...I do not, while we sit on our arses and allow some lunatic to make us complicit in the deaths of more than half a million men women and children.

Yes they are killing each other, but did our brilliant leaders not realise they would kill each other.....I did!

Did our brilliant leaders not realise that the invasion would mean more danger (and expense) in materials and lives.....I did!

Did our brilliant leaders not realise that it would be all for nothing....I did!

Let Teribus pore over his book of "facts" it contains as many truths as the "Dodgy Dossier".....Ake

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:20 PM

Incidentally...where the fuck did I ever say the "State" should take a hand in bringing up children? I am against evils of all kinds,
Capitalism being the greatest evil, State control comes a very close second.

You may read my posts T, but I don't believe you really understand what I am talking about.
You seem to be stuck in some time warp, still fighting the good fight against the Commies.
I'll let YOU into a little secret, the battle is just about to commence and we are both much too old to do anything about it, but the secret is...Just like Iraq you won't like the outcome...because its going to be about REAL freedom and you don't like freedom, do you Teribus?...............not the real stuff anyway!!

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:02 PM

Teribus.. I can do without a lecture on how to conduct my personal life from an ex-Army pen pusher.
My working life has been spent exclusively in providing a service to the community in which I have lived all my life.
As far as I know I have harmed none and helped many...can you say the same? have any of your decisions involved the life or death of your underlings, or those deemed the enemy by your masters.

If indeed you were involved in the killing trade, then you have nothing to tell anyone on this forum or elsewhere about how to live a good and decent life.

Choice is freely available if you can afford it, but for thiose who take the capitalist bait and find themselves out of their financil depth, choice is a pipe dream.

Fifty years ago we worked to subsist, in my part of the world barter was as much part of the rural economy as capital.
We worked a fixed week and what we lacked in wealth was more than made up for in comradeship. Houses were to live ones life in, bring up a family in, not perceived as a financial investment, or "buy to let" while thousands are homeless or stuck into drug ridden ghettos.

The system tells us to spend, spend, spend, whether we can afford it or not and if you dont have the things that the system says you should have....you are a failure!

Choice!!.........Don't make me fuckin' laugh.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 07:07 AM

Teribus - its you who is coming up with the abstract political theories about self help, and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps. (We'll have the one about getting on your bike next....)

I just pointed out that poor sods being marched to the gas chamber didn't have much choice. You could say the same about the gulags.

You could say the say the same about the Nottinghamshire mining villages I taught in the early 90's when Thatcher's economic miracle was really beginning to bite. The only real success stories were the kids who had become drug dealers. These are places where the kids traditionally switched off from education - not in a challenging unfriendly way - but they knew they were going down the pit, like their Dads - and the girls knew they were going to marry miners - and so did the teachers.

There are just times and places in history where hope seems to have been sucked out of the situation. And frankly the days when they sent in John Harvey Jones to tell us to rationalise, or some hot shot headmaster 'with radical ideas' - is just the product of fevered imagination in right wing tory Tory think tanks - the sort of shit Sheila Lawlor and Keith Joseph used to cook up.

The correct response is compassion, and economic aid.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 06:04 AM

You have taken the point I was making a bit out of context, but you make a valid point WLD. Although in the particular example you raise a choice was made, it was the wrong one and that wrong choice was made repeatedly and only redressed once in the entire course of the Second World War - it was called the Warsaw Uprising, where the Jewish population of the Ghetto chose to fight, instead of "walking quietly into the night". With the Russians approaching from the East it scared the German authorities rigid.

What my post was addressing was Akenaton's small problem of "economic slavery" - But I believe that you knew that.

"The system demands that we work progressivly longer and harder for financial reward which is immediately gobbled up again by that very same system."

Not so from personal experience and observation. The number of hours worked each week has tumbled in my lifetime, the number of public holidays has risen, the number of weeks annual holidays has increased. All had to be fought for and won, that was possible under a democratic system of government financed by a capitalist economic system. Under the Communist command economy every man jack would have been branded an enemy of the state and marched to god knows where to do the same job for damn all pay and time off until they dropped. I work hard and I use my "financial rewards" to help my friends and my children in the pursuit of whatever they want to do.

"We have lost our traditional family structures, leading to a nation of lonely old people made to feel worthless by a system which finds them of no practical use."

How on earth can either a political system, or an economic system cause you to lose your traditional family structure? Whether you cherish the structure of your family, traditional or not, is entirely up to you.

"Children neglected and unloved by a nation of mothers who's natural role in life has been devalued by a system which prefers to see them as productive workers fulfilling themselves through a career."

Matter of choice, when we started our family my wife and I jointly made the decision that she would stay at home and bring up the children as a full-time mother. This we stuck to through thick and thin and I believe that our children benefitted from it enormously. On the materialistic side we might have been a bit deprived if that is taken as being any sort of yardstick - but that can easily be recognised for what it is - irrelevant window dressing. The children were always well dressed, fed and educated.

"Rampant drug addiction among a whole generation of young people who only value the materialism promoted by the system; and when this materialism is beyond their reach, they allow the system to ease their pain with herion and crack ."

And what exactly were the parents of this generation of children doing? Obviously not a very good job. But you knowingly paint a deliberately bleak picture, another of the Socialist Workers Party's misrepresentations - A whole generation, Eh? - complete and utter bollocks and you know it.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 04:42 AM

"little secret that I will let you in on Akenaton, just like me, nobody invited you into this world on a free ticket, you make your own way, irrespective of either the economic, or political system that you grow up with."

How would that work out for the innocent children in Auswichz? could they make their way 'irrespective of the political system'. Of course not, and from that you can interpolate millions of lesser cases where where the political sysytems, and ecomonic fuck ups have devastated ordinary peoples lives.

Doubt if George sodding Galloway ever has discussions like this though! Both of you need your heads knocking together. can't believe so energy is being expended on the defence of this character.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 07:45 PM

Akenaton what you are describing is a thing called choice. A personal decision dictated by what one individual wants to do. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the economic system that prevails.

You may well have lost your sense of value and sense of family tradition, I most certainly have not lost mine, again a matter of choice. If you have chosen to neglect your children, I have chosen not to neglect mine. It's all choice Akenaton, everything in life is choice. That is on the very firm understanding that life owes neither you nor anybody else anything. While you may condone surrender to "materialism" you have abbrogated your role as a responsible parent, you and you alone are supposed to teach and instill in your children a sense of value, moral worth and self-reliance. It most certainly is not the job of the state or anybody else to do that.

But for the likes of yourself, it always has to be somebody elses fault, that is the typical leftists fall back position. You all know the price of everything but the value of nothing. You all bang on about your rights but for some strange reason are remarkably silent about your responsibilities. You all sit there fat dumb and happy in the hope and completely unjustified believe that somebody is going to pick up the tab for your ineptitude and indolence.

A little secret that I will let you in on Akenaton, just like me, nobody invited you into this world on a free ticket, you make your own way, irrespective of either the economic, or political system that you grow up with. Start taking responsibility for yourself and teach everybody else to do likewise.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 06:26 PM

"Now that democratic system based on a capitalist economy may well not be perfect, but it is better than the alternative, and currently the best we have."
Wrong Teribus.... I do not believe that any system based on capitalist economics can be in the least democratic.

Capitalism is first and foremost a state of mind, the economic tricks are just one small part of the complete repertoir.

In your diatribe extolling the virtues of capitalism, I noticed that you failed to address the small problem of "economic slavery"
The system demands that we work progressivly longer and harder for financial reward which is immediately gobbled up again by that very same system.
We have lost our traditional family structures, leading to a nation of lonely old people made to feel worthless by a system which finds them of no practical use.
Children neglected and unloved by a nation of mothers who's natural role in life has been devalued by a system which prefers to see them as productive workers fulfilling themselves through a career.
Rampant drug addiction among a whole generation of young people who only value the materialism promoted by the system; and when this materialism is beyond their reach, they allow the system to ease their pain with herion and crack .
We should have learned better, but like the lemmings we race headlong over the cliff.

My ideal is, contrary to your opinion, not a lifetime of toil in some Soviet factory, but real freedom from slavery of every discription.
My thoughts on how this can be achieved are more radical than socialism, communism or the New Liberalism.
Does this sound like a proponent of a State Command Economy?

My advice to you Mr T is never be tempted to lay a bet, as your horses always seem to finish "tailed off"

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: GUEST,from albert
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 02:14 PM

Have just returned from Sidmouth so have missed some of the discussion about Galloway and Iraq.

Teribus you are wrong and oh so wrong in your take on state capitalism.

The theory of state capitalism was first made widely known in left wing circles in the late 1940s and 1950s by Tony Cliff and Mike Kidron who went on to form the International Socialists who evolved in the 1970s into the Socialist Workers Party. Although if my memory serves me correct there was an earlier proponent of this theory.

In the 1950s the Soviet Union appeared to have plenty of strength and it was quite a brave and unorthodox socialist to suggest the the Soviet Union was not socialist and was in fact a state capitalist system created through the destruction of the Revolution in the 1920s.

Cliff has written several books on this theme and has attempted to rescue the classical marxist belief that the emancipation of the working class will be the act of the working class.
I will drink to that!
albert

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 04:09 AM

Or in other words Akenaton:

"Now that democratic system based on a capitalist economy may well not be perfect, but it is better than the alternative, and currently the best we have."

Like most on the extreme left you misrepresent capitalism as being something political, it is not and never has been, it is an economic system.

There is no such thing as "Western Capitalism", its another of the lefts myths, it was invented by the Soviets and built up to be the bogey-man with which they frightened their populations.

Conversely what you call "State Capitalism" is also a myth, it was invented by the hard left to explain the collapse of the Communist Regimes that they previously supported. Within the communist system, the means of creating wealth had to be controlled by the state, they did not operate "State Capitalism", they operated what was known as a "Command Economy" which was totally controlled by the State. It was grossly inefficient, wasteful and utterly inadequate - That is why it failed, such systems always do, there has never been one successful example of a "Command Economy".

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 03:20 AM

You seem to consider that the only alternative to Western Capitalism is a "State Capitalist" model as practiced in Mid 20th Century Russia.

If youhave been reading any of my previous posts on other threads, you would have discovered that I consider these models worse than ours.

Contrary to what you broadcast here, I am not a believer in Communist dogma, but believe that the ideal is a measure of happiness and fulfillment for as many of our brothers and sisters as possible.

As far as I can see neither the old Communist systme nor Western Capitalism provides any happiness at all ,but merely turns humans into slaves.


Under Communism...to the State ....In the West to the Banks and financial institutions.

You may say that we choose to enslave ourselves, but that is a debate worth having...

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 02:54 AM

Whether there was going to be a war or not, rested entirely with Saddam. Everybody fully believed the contents of UNSCOM Report of January 1999 and believed that Saddam had not destroyed his remaining WMD and stocks of WMD agents, that was why Resolution 1441 got the support it did.

Saddam's major trading partners, Russia, France, China along with Germany were, I believe, culpable because they convinced Saddam that, with their active diplomatic support, he could hold out for a second time against the UN's inspectors. They told him that sanctions would soon be lifted, they told him that the US and the UK would not act. They were wrong, sorely wrong, in the wake of 911 and taking into consideration the threat evaluation arrived at three years before in 1998, so clearly outlined and expressed by Bill Clinton, the one thing that Saddam should have realised and banked on was that the United States of America would act. He was given every opportunity to avoid conflict but chose to ignore them all.

"I'm afraid in the real world, the blind and limbless children come very far down the list of priorities Capitalism minds only the rich and powerful." - Akenaton

Your biased and bigotted view is noted. What you say might be true, but democracy based on a capitalist economy also provides hope and the opportunity for betterment. Communism and a State controlled economy serves those you mention even less.

While the "anti-American", "anti-west", lobby have ranted on about the hundreds of thousands of lives US interference has cost since the end of the Second World War, they are oddly silent about the tens of millions killed by Communist regimes in the same period.

If you take a look at the advances made since the Reform Act was passed in the UK in 1832 you will see a constant and steady improvement in the general lot of the population across the board. That was all based on a capitalist economy. On the other hand take a look at the lot of those over the same period who had to endure the experience of living under the communist regimes so admired by the likes of Akenaton. Total State control on every aspect of life leading to stagnation, despair, misery and despondency.

Akenaton might challenge that but I cannot recall many dying in their hundreds to escape to experience life under those communist regimes, the reverse cannot be said, their memorials in Berlin stand testament to that, the pictures of the orphanages in Romania stand testament to how caring communist regimes can be, the fate of Chinese villagers currently being cleared from their homes in Beijing to make way for the Olympics stand testament to that.

In the recent Tsunami I noted that the usual leftist, anti-American lot were silent. Perhaps Akenaton can explain to us where the Russian and Chinese helicopters were when it came to mustering the aid effort. How much did those countries contribute to the disaster relief? Since it fell into the hands of Communist overlords Russia, with all its vast wealth, with all its rich land, never once managed to feed it's population. It had to rely on massive amounts of aid from - guess where - America, a democratic country based on a capitalist economy.

Now that democratic system based on a capitalist economy may well not be perfect, but it is better than the alternative, and currently the best we have.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 05:07 PM

Russia China and France were well aware that the decision to wage war had already been taken, incommon with most members of the public who had any understanding of American foreign policy.

Looking to the future, support for a compromise....not a license to kill....would seem the least worst option. All were cowards in the face of US/UK agression.

I'm afraid in the real world, the blind and limbless children come very far down the list of priorities Capitalism minds only the rich and powerful

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 01:55 PM

"Quite a few thought so after they had their arms twisted up their backs by Bush's bully boys." - Akenaton

Another myth trotted out by the looney left. Anything by way of substantiation? Now let's see to get that Resolution passed unanimously "Bush's bully boys" would have had to twist the arms of Russia,China and France. Now how did they do that Akenaton?

Same old three horse race folks, place your bets.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 01:42 PM

Akenaton, I do take it that you do realise who said the words quoted in your last post and when he said them.

As to the US/UK coalition withdrawing UNSCOM Inspectors, it was the UNSCOM Inspectors complains of obstruction and intimidation on the part of the Iraqi Authorities that made their job impossible - At least that is how they reported it to the UN Security Council - Again Akenaton that is not just my opinion it is a matter of record - look it up.

And the mission of both UNSCOM an latterly UNMOVIC was not to wander about searching for Iraq's WMD but to verify that they did not have any and monitor and supervise the destruction of any prohibited items found. They also had to verify that all prohibited research and development programmes aimed at the acquisition of WMD were shut down. Now for them to do that there did not have to any WMD - True? What such an inspection effort would rely on heavily was Iraqi co-operation, which they never got.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 01:22 PM

"But Saddam Hussein could end this crisis tomorrow simply by letting the weapons inspectors complete their mission. He made a solemn commitment to the international community to do that and to give up his weapons of mass destruction a long time ago now. One way or the other, we are determined to see that he makes good on his own promise."

Some fuckin' hopes!!    Saddam had no WMD's to give up and the US/UK coalition made sure the inspectors were withdrawn before the truth was made clear....Ake

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 01:12 PM

Quite a few thought so after they had their arms twisted up their backs by Bush's bully boys.
Resolution 1441 was a sick joke, bringing shame on an organisation which you have habitually vilified, but now use to prop up your unstable argument.

In defence of the UN, 1441 was never intended as a precurser to all out war, but as you know very well, THAT decision had been taken long before by our brave blood soaked leaders.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 11:34 AM

Well I don't know about unverified Akenaton?

1. When it comes to Donald Rumsfelds employment record it is just that a simple matter of record. According to Folkiedave he was a senior member of Reagan's administration with full authority to speak for the Government of the United States of America. The truth was that he was selected as an unpaid envoy to deliver a letter from President Reagan to Saddam Hussein, while he was in the middle-east. He was not a member of Reagan's administration and he did not have the authority to speak for anyone other than himself.

2. According to Gorgeous George and Folkiedave, Rumsfeld was there to sell arms to Saddam. As stated previously the meeting notes, which were previously classified, are now in the public domain. I have read through the 18 page document, Gorgeous George and Folkiedave obviously have not, because, it conclusively proves that the subject of US arms sales to Iraq did not even enter into the conversation, check it for yourself.

3. "So we were faced with a clearly declared threat by pre-war Iraq....is that a fact?"

Well quite a few thought so at the time and well before that, otherwise Resolution 1441 would never have been passed unanimously (even Syria voted for it). Oh and there was also this to get the perspective of the United States of America:

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/02/17/transcripts/clinton.iraq/

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 10:42 AM

No Worries Bonzo.

Its the usual thing - if you got money you're a rock star in rehab. If not you're a hoodie with an ASBO.

(all together now "it's the Rich wot gets th pleasure, it's the Poor wot cops the Blame ... " .. )

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 10:29 AM



What inverted snobbery is this? Nothing wrong with being upper class, rather that than a jumped up chav.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 10:23 AM

The only reason George W went to war was " .. to finish the job my daddy started ... " (straight quote)
The only reason George G is in trouble is because he's a Glorious Eccentric. (If you're upper class). Or Mad. (If you're poor).
The Mutilated Children of Iraq were being mutilated by Hussain S before Al-Queda took over.
The only reason Al-Queda are so strong in Iraq is because George W went to war (see above and repeat chorus)

Just because Regan, Wayne & Arnie beat oppression by force in movies doesn't mean it works.
Could somebody tell the American People please?

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 09:33 AM

Yes George, and I would also like to thank Teribus for showing what he is.
His "facts" are no more verifiable than our opinions, set as they are by some of the most untrustworthy people on the planet.
Teribus contends that I am a hypocrit, knowing absolutely nothing about me personally....a strange course of action for one who deals only in "facts".

"And yes, you, and those think as you do are a gutless generation, thankfully our elected leaders when faced with a clearly declared threat were fully prepared to act, and history will prove them to have been right to have done so."

So we were faced with a clearly declared threat by pre-war Iraq....is that a fact?   If so it is one of his false facts made up on the hoof, as all the strategy for this war seems to have been.

Our leaders were fully prepared to act, and history will prove them right.........What a strange opinion, considering that our leaders are making every effort to extricate themselves from any culpability in this bloodbath.
By your writing Teribus it would seem that it is you who is the hypocrit, you pretend to be someone who deals only in facts, but at the end of the day your arguments are based on good old fashioned opinion just like the rest of us.
The only pity is that your opinions are so lacking in pity for mutilated children of Iraq, or the children who fight the wars for you and your kind

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 07 - 01:56 AM

Yes George I have noticed, all the hissing has been coming from the likes of Akenaton and Folkiedave. They still have not come up with anything authoratative to substantiate the myths that have been trotted out.

If I have managed to cheer you up George, then that's my pleasure.

Nice of you to make the distinction about the rest of you "appearing to have the moral high ground", because that is all it is - an appearance of fact. It has no substance and like a pack of cards it tumbles at the application of the faintest effort.

Subject: RE: Did George Galloway Get A Fair Hearing
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 10:18 PM

Have you noticed that in a cat fight it is the one that's cornered that does all the hissing and howling? Bless you, Teri, you cheered me up - by digging so low, you make the rest of us appear to have the moral high ground, even if only comparatively so. Tell Old Nick we're coming, won't you?