Earning a living in Folk

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Kampervan
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:56 PM

I'm with you Betsy.

But there seems to be a lot of people out there who just want to get a point of view across irrespective of the thread to which they're contributing.

Interesting and relevant as the points are they're nothing to do with the spirit of the thread. But I guess that's the way of the world :-)

Here's to folk in all of its forms.

K/van

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

While you're all licking your wounds....
Here's my theory about what's gone wrong - with the UK clubs at least; I'm not in a position to comment on the US or elsewhere, although I suspect that things were/are run on a different principle. Our folk clubs, as I've already commented, used to be a good night out, for people of all age groups and backgrounds, and for a modest outlay. They were informal, friendly, and intimate, and the audience were very much a part of the proceedings. There was a formula which worked: residents+guests/floorsingers+a raffle, and an AUDIENCE.
The residents: Usually a semi-pro group, but sometimes full time. They were the basis of the club; people who didn't like the residents didn't come unless there was a guest they wanted to see. People who did like the residents would come regularly, and get to know the group and their songs and choruses. They would support the club most nights, regardless of who the guest was, or if it was a singers' night.
Guests: Typically, two or three guests a month, and a mixture of local and national guests, pro and semi-pro, and maybe the odd guest from outside the UK. And a mixture, usually of trad, contemporary and blues, with the odd bit of poetry and maybe a sprinkling of jazz, country, or even Early Music.
Floor singers: These could be regular punters who liked to get up and do a couple of songs sometimes - not necessarily every week; or they might be visiting pros doing promo stuff on spare nights on a tour; I've seen The McCalmans, Roy Bailey, Christy Moore, Dave Burland (I think) and Vera Johnson doing floor spots back in the 70s - and they weren't unknowns at the time.
The Audience: As much a part of the club as the singers. In those days, folk audiences confidently joined in with choruses, and there was always some banter between audience and singers; it was all part of the inclusiveness and informality. They paid to come in; otherwise, there would obviously be no paid guests.
The residents would do a spot at the beginning of the night, which might be 30 minutes on a singers' night, maybe less on a guest night. Then there would be the guest spot or some floor singers. After the interval, the residents might do one or two songs and then put the remaining floor singers on, often finishing the night with a regular 'goodnight' song; on guest nights, there might or might not be some floor spots.
So far, this is stating the bleedin' obvious to most of you, but bear with me. Something seems to have gone wrong with this during the 80s. There are still some clubs using this formula, but many are not. It now seems to be more usual to have a list of 'residents', who are really regular floor singers, each doing, at best a couple of songs on a guest night, and as often as not the singers' night is a singaround. In my recent experience, the old-style resident group has largely vanished. So there is no longer the focus and continuity. There is also no longer the same faithful support from paying punters. I see a connection. Doubtless some of you won't; so what's your theory? And if I'm on the right lines, what can we do to restore the magic. What happened to the old groups. I suspect that many of them packed it in for any of the usual reasons, and - it being the period when there was no fresh influx, weren't replaced. Now there are plenty of new, young groups, but many of them are not in a position to remember how the clubs used to work. Maybe if they could be persuaded to do club residencies, things would improve.
Sorry for rambling, but I believe this is the root of the problem, and would be interested to hear the views of the punters in particular.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

Thank you Kampervan for getting back to the spirit and the intent of what I thought was behind your original Thread.
It is very sad for me , to see the thread getting hijacked, and as a consequence having Tom and John to defend themselves, when they, in addition to Banjimans "connection" are surely, the current practicing individuals most able to provide a good insight to your proposition.
It really is a difficult task, and as I said in a earlier posting " If you think it's about doing 2 x 45 mins sets and picking up the money - think again - and forget it". What I maybe should have said on a positive note ( rather than "forget it" )is - give it a go!!
It is not an easy way to earn a living, but I am full of admiration for those who try.
Cheers Betsy.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:24 PM

OK, I get it. This is like everyone going out back of the pub and beating the crap out of each other, then coming in for a pint.

Much like performing, I'd guess. You have to have the ability to 'get over it', move on and not dwell on the negative. If you have a tissue-paper ego, you won't last long.

My bad. Carry on.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 04:08 PM

'Folk' in the UK is used to describe both an activity and a repertoire (and also a style and also a genre and also a type of venue, and a community etc. etc). I don't think we'd call a theatre a traditional venue just because someone was performing some traditional material there. But there ARE lots of views on this - so don't take my word for it!

There is work in all the paces you mentioned - but it's not easy to get at. In a lot of places (like museums) you can wind up with a floating audience. It may pay the bills, but it can be disheartening for any song-weaver - though probably fine if you're happy busking tunes etc.

I find school work draining (which is why I'm so in awe of teachers) but VERY rewarding - so I would like to do more, but having tried to fill in the form for my local education authority I realise it's unlikely to happen. You have to fit right in with the National Curriculum plus there's other issues like getting a criminal record check, and have teaching experience or even qualifications. They don't make it easy. I do have chums who do hospitals etc, but I have enough of that visiting relatives. I'm currently at the 'magic story' end of the 'folk' world. My stuff works best in places where I can cast a bit of a spell (you, know - hypnotising the audience so they think I sang in tune and played some fancy licks up the dusty end) - which rules out most of the other places that people have suggested on this thread. To be honest, after a life of rock grift, I've had enough of 'difficult' audiences, and now prefer to play for people who've come along knowing what I do, and wanting to hear it. But fair play to those that have the stamina for the good fight!

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

Someone asked - can't find it now - "are floor singers not punters?" Well, yes, if they go to clubs to be entertained, and like to get up some weeks and do their two songs. No, if they desert your club en masse every time you book a guest, and are only prepared to show up when they know they can sing.

Hmmm. When I started going to my local folk club (which was about six months old at the time) it was all floor singers every week; there wasn't even a regular slot from the MC (I've never known why, he's a fine performer).

It was some time before we had an act of any description. When we did start getting acts in, though, I noticed two things: the door tax doubled (to an extortionate £2) and the time for floor singers halved. I don't go out every week - and I haven't been performing very long - so it seemed like pretty reasonable behaviour for me to give the artist nights a miss unless I thought we were in for a particularly good night. (You may have noticed my comments on the thread "John Kelly - book him now!".) I must say I never thought I was treacherously undermining the club; I rather thought I was one of the ones keeping it going.

More on this later, perhaps.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Kampervan
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

Well, I didn't realise what a wide-ranging, in depth, analytical discussion I was starting when I posted the original question.

Which was simply me wondering aloud roughly how many people in the UK, within the broad collective of 'folk performer' earned their living at it.

I actively didn't want to begin another "what is folk" thread. I just wondered whether it was a few hundred,a few thousand or more.

Having said that, lots of good postings and it's made interesting reading!

K/van

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:38 PM

Mr. Bliss has me confused, as he seems to say that "folk" is not what you play, it's where you play, my thought being that anywhere you play traditional music becomes a traditional music venue --

At any rate, do UK folk performers include educational venues in their breadwinning mix, or are they resolute about playing clubs and festivals?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 03:09 PM

erm.....I'll get me banjo and leave by the back door then.

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:59 PM

Guys, guys, please don't fight over me... (blushes) I'm not worth it!

Snail:
i) An irritating but fairly amusing wind-up merchant... Now that I can live with.
ii) The last thing I would want to do is damage your (or anyone else's) reputation or that of the Lewes Arms - I was merely semi-flippantly responding to your earlier comments. Maybe your writing style comes over as more pugilistic than you intend and mine comes over as less frivolous than I intend.

Banjiman:
Thanks for the support but, erm, please check your PMs is a bit...

Jeri:
We all love each other really... or would if we could. This would be quicker, livelier and funnier in the pub. We all drink in different pubs though.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:50 PM

Hello everyone

As I'm sure you're all quite aware there is absolutely no connection whatsoever between a handful of noisy (but image-damaging) rascals who make unkind comments about artists on web forums (not just this one), and the fact that it can be awkward to raise with your hosts a topic like, for example, donating a CD for the raffle when you know it will mean you'll sell none, or spotting all the posters you sent in a pile by the door, or only getting a 20 minute second set because the floor singers faffed about so much, or there being a horrible smell from the gents (all issues raised to me by professional chums who said they didn't feel able to mention them to their host - along with many more).

As I have explained - it's probably my lack of brain, but I can find no logic to Bryan's questions/demands, and don't recognise any opinion I've ever expressed in the conflation and confusion of all these different opinions on different topics from different discussions.   So I don't see how I can respond except to make the situation even more muddled.

Yes, Richard, you're probably right. TheSnail amusing himself is probably just what it is.

I'm doing my best to laugh along.

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:45 PM

If all this thread is to the most prolific of you is a personal slagging match, then maybe it should be closed and you guys can insult each other silly in PMs.

You really don't need an international audience for this.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:40 PM

Mr Snail,

I'm certainly prepared to accept that (your last post).....if you didn't know it certainly makes your posts a lot less scary & ominous. I assumed you did, hence my bullying accusation.

Largely a misunderstanding then....... you could be nicer to Tom though!

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:33 PM

Good grief. My last posting was sent before I had seen Banjiman's. I very sorry to hear that ESAM has troubles but I am horrified to think that anybody could begin to imagine I had anything to do with it. I have always regarded him as little more than an irritating but fairly amusing wind-up merchant.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:22 PM

Banjiman

So what are you saying here?

That slagging off your customer base doesn't seem to me to be good business practice.

You and I both know that there is more to this, I'm pretty sure that ESAM feels pretty nervous as a result of your threat.

The idea of ESAM being nervous about anything strikes me as pretty unlikely. I never had the slightest intention of exposing who I think he is; it's only a guess after all, but if you and I have our ideas about who he is, surely anyone who actually knows him will have sussed him out long ago. If I meant any more than that it was simply to let him know that I had guessed who he is and to take a little revenge for his remark that "you really don't like professional folk singers very much" which is completely unjustified and potentially damagaing to my reputation and, by association, the reputation of the Lewes Arms.

if your intent was not to shut people up who disagree with you.

No of course it wasn't. I was explicitly asking for a response. I wanted them to give the grounds for their allegations. It seems Tom is not prepared to respond to my questions regardless of what I say which is a pity because I would like to ask him to give a reference to the threads he is talking about above and to explain why, if none of those who tend to be nasty about trade musicians are club organisers, it is necessary for touring artists to be careful about what they're prepared to say at the supper table after the gig.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:07 PM

"My impression is that the Snail is joking."

Richard, I wouldn't necessarily assume this ....... there have been some very unpleasant things happening to ESAM that you probably wouldn't know about. Hence my hypersensitivity.

Though let me make it clear that I don't know if TheSnail is involved in this.

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

I sincerely hope Tom hasn't been driven away; I thought we might start to get somewhere with this, if we could avoid the tendency to start clawing each others' eyes....
JK.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:49 PM

PS, Al, you're still a wind up, yo know I'm crap, but how many "folk" songs (my definition) do you really do? Go on, confess. You have said elsewhere you do do some, and if you're talking about "the Wild Rover" that's not God's breath you're feeling but the devil's wind!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:47 PM

My impression is that the Snail is joking.

But despite the Monster "clarifying" his views, I still don't know what it is he does and doesn't want. Indeed I'm even less clear. Rock venues it's too dark to see the floor, which is probably good as you don't want to see what you're walking in, the beer is usually sour (Tap and Tin, Chatham, excluded) rip off prices to get in and rip off prices again to get into the music part, crap sound systems (possibly the worst I've heard in my life in the prestigious Rock City in Nottingham's metal room) urinals where you paddle in piddle, no seats, those that have seats the seats sticky with spilled beer and carved up with holes in, hell most folk venues are utopian in comparison, and you often (well, sometimes) get sandwiches too! So what's the "dreary" bit?

Many people like some amateur support slots (I certainly do) - and they are the potential crossover point to go semipro, so what's wrong with them?

Or is it something else? You certainly don't like something, and you never tire of saying how crap everything is.

C'mon, how can the pros who are that bit better than the rest make a fair living playing folk or nearly folk music? The people you say you want and expect to see all seem to be playing folk clubs, so that can't be the problem can it?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:24 PM

leave 'im, Sharon! he's not wurfit!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:23 PM

Sorry to read the above Tom, We have always found you one of the most sincere and approachable people we have found on the folk scene. Your points are always well made and expressed with knowledge and a nice vein of humour.

See you somewhere down the road

Una and Tony

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:22 PM

Blimey! you lot have been busy since I last posted. Can't hope to make many specific replies, but.....
Snail: I have tried to pont out that I'm not tarring all clubs with the same brush. Like others here, I am reluctant to name specific clubs, not because I'm just making this stuff up to cause controversy, but because this is a public forum, and some of the people concerned may not be Mudcatters, and so are not in a position to respond. Also, there's enough blood drawn hereabouts without that!
If you really insist, I might PM you with some evidence, which, of course I wouldn't like you to broadcast, but at least you might care to admit that you've seen it. And yes, there are those enlightened clubs that have booked - sometimes more than once - that boring old git with the harmonium. Gawd - he's even on that Gainsborough Folk Festival! But that doesn't negate what I've said. I will admit that some of this may be a regional phenomenon; I, for one, can't get arrested around here, but can get work in other parts of the UK, as you've seen. But every time I open the local folk mag, I see the same names over and over. I can't believe that the audiences in these parts will only listen to those people. Regarding the comment about the rights of professional folksingers to exist at all: you might not have heard it, but I certainly have. Recently by a dancer I know well, who isn't a Mudcatter, so, again, I won't name him; and comments on some threads here have amounted to the same thing, if not in the same words. Again, I'll try and trace the threads and post the links (which might not work). I have heard the comment as far back as the early 70s, but can't remember who said it - actually, I think I know, but am too vague, and the anonimity rule applies again. And I've heard it elsewhere along the way. The comments about the 'sneering attitude' of some -SOME - NOT ALL amateurs can also be checked out on these threads. And no, I'm certainly not complaining about people attending more than one club; you've taken that rather out of context with the previous comments.
Fokiedave: The comment about punters voting with their feet was mine;
I don't know whether the lady punter concerned is still around, or has voted with her feet. I don't know who she was; she just got talking about the group I'd been playing with, and the folk scene in general. Yes, there are lots of festivals, as I said much earlier in the thread. And it supports my contention that there is still an audience. So why are they not in evidence in the clubs? This is what we are trying to determine (for the sake of the clubs, the punters and pro and amateur singers), but things seem to be going the way of all good threads. Can we read each others' posts more carefully, and think before we start firing off angry responses?
Someone asked - can't find it now - "are floor singers not punters?" Well, yes, if they go to clubs to be entertained, and like to get up some weeks and do their two songs. No, if they desert your club en masse every time you book a guest, and are only prepared to show up when they know they can sing. There is, of course nothing to prevent them finding their own venue, as, indeed some do.
Tony: yes, as you say, there are other possible outlets, and we should be discussing such possibilities. I've been thinkig about one or two myself, but I think it's a shame that the years of dedication and development of the folk clubs into what was a good night out - for all, regardless of age, etc., should simply be forgotten and cast aside as irrelevant, without some effort on our part to do something positive about it.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:05 PM

Quote from TheSnail:

"but I can't help feeling that some of the opinions they (TB & JK)express are damaging to their own interests"

So what are you saying here? Sorry you won't be booking Tom (we had him, he's pretty good for a beginner..........hee, hee, hee), glad you would book John.


Quote from ESAM quoting you:

""But watch your step or I'll tell the good people of Mudcaster who you really are and the folk vigilantes will be after you."

Not entirely sure how to take this. I'm hoping it's humour..."

You and I both know that there is more to this, I'm pretty sure that ESAM feels pretty nervous as a result of your threat.

You have the perfect right to respond however you want.....as do I, as do you.....oh no, we're going round in circles again!

I do apologise for accusing you of "being in danger of appearing to be a bully" if your intent was not to shut people up who disagree with you. It did appear that way to me though, which I found surprising having shared many threads with you in the past.

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:02 PM

Sorry everyone - it's happening again and though I care not one jot what Mr Creer thinks of me or my opinions, I feel I have a duty to explain that it was not this one post which made me unwilling to debate with him. I simply cannot follow his train of thought nor he mine.

As an example, you may note the way my views about some (often anonymous) posters who tend to be nasty about trade musicians (none of whom are club organisers - at least I doubt it VERY much!) and none of whom are probably even reading this thread, have somehow been entangled with some general statistics I've offered concerning the number of gigs available for working musicians.

Obviously trying to unpick that sort of argument is only going to lead to tears, and I do need to go and chop some onions anyway.

Great shame, because I usually enjoy a good debate, and there's been some useful stuff in this thread.

I do hope everyone else understands what I've been on about. And I think you do :-)

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:30 PM

Banjiman

That's Tom Bliss and John Kelly you've issued veiled "you'll never work again (or not in my club)" threats too

I have done no such thing. Apart from anything else, I do not do the club bookings. I do have input, of course, but we are a committee of ten, all with strong opinions of their own.

For reasons that go beyond this thread, Tom is unlikely to ask us for a booking. I would quite like to book John Kelly from what I've heard about him. He does occasionally say things about the folk club scene which I genuinely think are unnecessary, unjustified and unwise and I think I have a right to say so.

This is a "discussion" board where people throw around ideas & opinions ....... you really need to lighten up and let others express an opinion, even if it differs from your own.

But aren't I allowed to respond? In the post that apparently makes me impossible to debate with, I quoted some of Tom's words directly and used some of his own statistics to demonstrate that the people he says "resent there being such an animal as a professional folk musician" must be a very small and unimportant minority.

Where is the bullying in that?

I have said that he has made sweeping, damning and unsupported statements about the folk scene and I stand by that. Is it too much to ask him to justify those statements?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:07 PM

No Fixed Abode - I'm right with you.

You certainly can make a living at performing folk music, if you work at it and if you constantly look for new ways to do it. I play some "big time" events and some "small time" events - and of course everything in between. I enjoy every one of them, and I'm happy I have the work.

I too would encourage those thinking of trying to do so - and be ready to work hard and keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:03 PM

"It is interesting that there seems to be an assumption that the question refers to folk clubs and folk festivals."

Hi Unantony

I think there's a reason for that. I personally took 'Earning a living _in_ Folk' to mean in the folk environment, i.e. specifically in folk clubs and folk festivals. If I was taking 'folk' music to other places (village halls and theatres in my case, usually) I'd probably call it making a living _from_ Folk. So I was assuming the discussion was about folk places and how to make a living in them, rather than material perhaps presented in non-folk venues. In the paces you and M Ted mention you can of course do any kind of music and succeed, so the challenges and rewards are different.

That said, now I look again, Kampervan's OP was about making a living as a 'folk performer' which would cover anything and anywhere that performer decided could be called 'folk!'

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:43 AM

ESAM......well, er maybe not exactly, erm, ahem......... embarrassed silence

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Whistleworks
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:40 AM

Reminds me of the joke about how to make a million dollars in folk music. Start with 2 million dollars.

Bob

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM

"...that we should consider carefully before dismissing out of hand."

Paul, is that exactly what you meant to say?!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:29 AM

Richard - the pair of us are simply too good to be trading snotty remarks with this scurvy lot.

Of course we're musicians.

Personally, I'm a bit like that bloke in Chariots of Fire - I feel the breath of God in my lughole every time I sing The Wild Rover.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:21 AM

Hurray for that!

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:17 AM

Sadly we do not contribute that often to the threads here on Mudcat as they have a tendency to become slaging matches…..guess what…I said this……… you said that I am right…. you are wrong……. I will listen…… I will ignore. The question and origin of this thread was "it possible to make a living as a folk performer"…as that is what we do, we feel we have something to contribute to this thread.

It is interesting that there seems to be an assumption that the question refers to folk clubs and folk festivals. If there is anyone considering trying to earn a living playing folk music reading this thread I wish them well and again repeat….There is a far bigger world out there that just folk clubs and festivals, by all means include folk festivals and clubs in your thinking but please keep an open mind as to the other possibilities where folk music can be performed and appreciated. We perform folk music in Pubs, Caravan parks, Nursing homes (strangely there are a number of well know traditional folk singers who earn a lot of their income in Nursing homes but never seem to tell anyone about it….why?) Camra real ale festivals, folk clubs, folk festivals, village festivals, Acoustic clubs, Private parties, Weddings, funerals and corporate events. Hope this information helps any potential folk performers.

Una and Tony

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:10 AM

Following up Stringsinger's comments, I am rather surprised that UK folk performers haven't mentioned what for many American folk performers are the bread and butter jobs--schools, museums, historical sites, city parks, summer recreation programs, and such things. In addition to being remunerative, these are great opportunities to teach mostly young people about culture, history, and life in general.

These opportunities generally are excellent vehicles for performers who specialize in traditional and regional music, songs, and styles, and often allow people to support themselves without touring or travelling--

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Blue
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:05 AM

Thank you Paul, the man speaks sense boys.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:53 AM

Snail....

That's Tom Bliss and John Kelly you've issued veiled "you'll never work again (or not in my club)" threats too and now you're threatening ESAM with the folk vigilantes (and I understand the serious intent behind that veiled threat too).

This is a "discussion" board where people throw around ideas & opinions ....... you really need to lighten up and let others express an opinion, even if it differs from your own. You are in danger of appearing to be a bully.

The folk "scene" is not above criticism, there are some good points being made here (and some not such good ones) that we should consider carefully before dismissing out of hand.

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:53 AM

"But watch your step or I'll tell the good people of Mudcaster who you really are and the folk vigilantes will be after you."

Not entirely sure how to take this. I'm hoping it's humour...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:44 AM

Ewan Spawned a Monster

I liked The Bothy in Southport when I visited. Bit far away to be my 'local', though...

...unless you give yourself away first.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

Ewan Spawned a Monster

Oooh, snidey Snail! Is that really the best you can do?

Come on, man! You're losing your touch...

OK, Ewan, I'll take you as a role model from now on.

But watch your step or I'll tell the good people of Mudcaster who you really are and the folk vigilantes will be after you.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:39 AM

Look Richard, you suggested I didn't want 'proper folk music' in clubs. I've disagreed with you. You've tried and failed to pick apart my 'off the top of my head' list and now you're moving the goalposts. I said that if there was a folk club locally putting on these sorts of acts I would happily go. In fact I would go even if the place was a flea pit with rubbish beer and all the charm of a pubic toilet.

I don't have a problem with old people. My dad's one. So are some of my friends.

Of course I don't expect Bellowhead to play folk clubs. Erm, I may be a few things but I'm not stupid.

I'm even prepared to concede that every single club in the country is a guaranteed brilliant night out (except the ones I've been to that weren't) and I've just been incredibly unlucky. Except I know from what others have said to me that this simply isn't true.

Maybe after years of going to see non folk music, often in small venues where the gigs have been organised by enthusiastic amateur promoters, by comparison the folk clubs I've been to seem a bit shoddy, tawdry, dreary. I don't usually measure the pleasure I'm experiencing by the number of times I look at my watch, for example.

I think I'll just have to admit that I've not really enjoyed my local folk clubs, put it down to experience and leave it at that. If the people who go there all like things exactly as they are, good luck to them. I'll just have to stick to CDs and the odd festival and concert and get my initimate, small scale, live music experiences outside of the confines of the folk world. It's a shame, but I haven't got enough spare time to sit through not very good nights out on the off chance that one day I might not be disappointed. I don't think that's unreasonable.

And like the atheist jealous of the believer, I want to like folk clubs.

I liked The Bothy in Southport when I visited. Bit far away to be my 'local', though...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:36 AM

It seems that attempting to stand up for the folk scene that I love against attacks by people who ought to know better doesn't go down too well.

I'm sorry that Tom feels unable to debate the points he raises. It seems that even quoting him directly constitutes interpreting his words in a way he never intended.

I shall simply settle back into helping out with a successful and enjoyable folk club which gives me access to a great many talented and delightful performers, professional, semi-professional and downright amateur all of whom are united by a love of the music.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:04 AM

Jackie Oates - lovely material, delivery a bit fey.
Jim Causley - some lovely material, some lovely sounding material, alas sadly affected by the tendency to sneer at "folk" (according to the words out of his own mouth on the wireless)
Jon Loomes - quite simply, great (although friends told me he forgot the words four or five times at a folk club the othe week).
Spiers and Boden - not to my personal taste but I recognise their ability. Very un-folk arrangements to my ear.
Mawkin - I like the sound of what I've heard.
Bella Hardy - I bought the CD on spec, having been told she was a new powerful female singer and I find every time it comes on the CD changer in the car I turn it off
Mawkin -I've liked the sound of the few bits I've heard

The rest, my jury is still out - but surely with the exception of Spiers and Boden who I think go as superstars these days all of that list can be seen in many concert clubs and the only hardcore traddy is Jackie Oates would you not agree?

Bellowhead through size are a special case and suited for big stage big rig (and I don't like all that brass), and I don't think Mr Monster wants them in his local club does he? Rachel Unthank I have listened to a bit and do not dislike - but for whatever reason they are now big time and surely beyond the budget of small venues.

But if it isn't the music (and surely that is the most important thing although bad ambience and bad beer can make it harder to appreciate) now I am lost what it is that Mr Monster doesn't want. I can see he is very annoyed about something maybe just the prescence and continued survival of people older than him, but if not that what then is it?

Moreover, even if I can get a handle on what he doesn't like - what is it he actually wants? Is it that he wants only concerts, and no floor singers? If it cannot be understood, how is his criticism constructive?



Al, you are still a wind-up! All or almost all of them were musicians. You don't have to be a full-time pro to be a musician, and if you say you do then two things follow: -

1. You are the one putting yourself in a ghetto, and
2. You'd better live up to the billing you give yourself. I'm sure you personally do, but it is the load you shouldered.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

It's not so much clubs or even club organisers that he objects to but their current audiences who probably do annoying things like tapping their feet and joining in the choruses

Oooh, snidey Snail! Is that really the best you can do?

Come on, man! You're losing your touch...

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

I shall not be responding to Bryan's posts. I have explained to him privately that I find it impossible to debate with him because he interprets my words in ways that I never intended, and then does the same to my clarifications, and to my further explanations, until communication becomes impossible.

I will assure him, however, that I have not been addressing any of my very general comments to him personally.

I see no malaise, only some general confusions and misunderstandings, that might benefit from more open and honest debate, and the sharing of ideas an experiences.

Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Blue
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:47 AM

Oh, I'm so glad nobody but folkies read this, when you have finished tearing chunks out of each other maybe you can make it to the real world occasionally.

Tom Bliss - you are amazing please keep singing and though it will never make you a million you will always make many, many people happy.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:09 AM

Banjiman

Do you not think that there is even a grain of reality in what Tom is saying?

Quite possibly but Tom is not talking about "a grain of reality", he is claiming that it is an all pervading malaise that needs urgent action to fix it.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:01 AM

Banjiman

As club organisers I do think we should listen to the constructive points that Tom and Ewan are trying to make. There are certainly things I can learn from their opinions.......anyone else?

Apart from what I've covered above, Tom also says -

Some even argue that all the non-trade system has done is encourage songs to fall into disrepair, and that it was always the working chaps (or those with a 'trade' attitude) who did the making, the mending and the significant disseminating.

I love that "Some even argue". Who does? It seems we are required to abandon the idea that the "folk process" is a creative one and that all "song makers" are, by definition, trade. I can't see that going down too well in the traditional clubs.

As far as I can see, Ewan's objection to folk clubs is that they aren't concerts -

As things stand, I've all; but given up, because those of us who "just want to listen" are second class citizens compared with those who enjoy the celebratory love-in that is participatory folk.

It's not so much clubs or even club organisers that he objects to but their current audiences who probably do annoying things like tapping their feet and joining in the choruses.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:00 AM

'Are you saying that you know that other artists agree with you but are just too polite/scared to say so? That's quite a claim.'

yep, and its true! but surely that's true about any business. You don't tell your clients what you think about them. Well you think so, but when you get some particularly cavalier treatment from a tradesman - you can't help thinking I wish I had that sort of business where you could just afford to tell people to get stuffed.

But Tom has natural good manners, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't say anything anyway however atrociously he was being treated. Most folksingers are used to accepting graciously hospitality(in whatever form it comes).

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:53 AM

Snail,

Do you not think that there is even a grain of reality in what Tom is saying?

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 08:48 AM

Ooh dear, where do I start?

Tom Bliss

My comments have not been damning, though (perhaps they might feel so to a few if they touched a raw nerve, in which case my apologies, but maybe it needed saying).

Was the comment in parantheses aimed at me? If you've got anything specific you wish to accuse me of, please do so rather than resorting to innuendo.

From previous threads -

I just get so weary of reading posts here which not only fail to recognise, or seek to minimise, or deny, the influence of 'trade' music on the stuff we all enjoy hearing and doing, but worse, seek to present hard-working low-earning artists as harlots - often in terms can can wind up making folk enthusiasts, as a tribe, seem mean-spirited, 'hsibbons' (that's snobbish inverted, by the way), and frankly just ill-informed about what it takes - and means - to be 'successful.'

There are however a significant number of people (a group well-represented on internet forums) who delight in a 'hsibbons' view of trade music. They suggest, for example, that the influence of commerce is damaging to the tradition, that professionalism is a kind of prostitution, that the registration of arrangements is a kind of theft, that anyone wanting to make a living at music is only in it for the money (rather than a committed artist), that doing it well is bad, that being innovative is bad, that concerts are a betrayal of the song-handing ethos, and so on and on and on.

Sounds pretty damning to me.

I am aware that it looks like I'm biting the hand that feeds me - but I'm not getting lots of stick from my club-running chums.

So how do they respond to your accusations? Do they nod sagely and say "Oh yes. Not us of course, it's all those other clubs."

You have said elsewhere that there are (or possibly were) 400 clubs in the country. You have played 201 of them, there are another 30 that only book big names and 75 that used to book guests but no longer do for whatever reason but I doubt if they suddenly developed a deep loathing for paid performers; it was probably more a matter of finacial risk.

That's 306 leaving 94 some of which probably do book guests but just haven't booked you yet and some of which have never booked guests, perhaps because they are really glorified singarounds or, just maybe, because they think that anyone who wants to be paid for singing is scum.

I'm finding it hard to see any evidence for a widespread negative attitude to professional performers and yet "This has caused me more disappointment than anything else I've encountered in the folk world over the past 10 years".

I'm also aware that there is sometimes a big gap between what touring artists think privately, and what they're prepared to say at the supper table after the gig.

Are you saying that you know that other artists agree with you but are just too polite/scared to say so? That's quite a claim.