Earning a living in Folk

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:24 PM

Sure is!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Tootler
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 06:44 PM

Personally I used find to the lower rungs of the industry pretty much clogged up with them - hogging suport slots, being awarded slots in prestigious festivals, getting favours done for favours done.

Meanwhile really competent people some who have been banging on the door for years, and have invested their lives in this music don't get a tumble. And eventually - they go off and do something else with their lives.

I can assure you that the music business is no different from many other walks of life in that respect.

I spent most of my career in the academic world. During my time I have seen a few "bright young things" climb all over anyone who got in their way bid to "make it to the top" and when they got there, they turned out to be useless. On the other hand there were a considerable number of very competent people who never made it very far, either because they were taken for granted or because their faces didn't fit or because they couldn't (wouldn't) spout the currently fashionable jargon.

There were also a number of people who did "make it" who thoroughly deserved their success.

That's life.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 01:21 PM

You're very lucky if you don't encounter people like that.

Personally I used find to the lower rungs of the industry pretty much clogged up with them - hogging suport slots, being awarded slots in prestigious festivals, getting favours done for favours done.

Meanwhile really competent people some who have been banging on the door for years, and have invested their lives in this music don't get a tumble. And eventually - they go off and do something else with their lives.

My friends who are still active in folkmusic say its still pretty much the same, and I don't doubt that's the way it will always be.

The internet is really the great white hope of English folk music - probably of all music. God knows they turned the pop music of our generation into a branch of showbiz. The folkmusic hit the skids in even less time. They can't stop little website communities like Mudcat, and it amuses me to hear them try to dismiss us as unimportant.

Don't get me wrong - we all go through stages if incompetence. No one should resent that. But theres a time and a place for it.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 12:38 PM

Al - I'm not sure whether I agree with you or not, because I'm not sure what you're saying the problem is. Too many young trad virtuosii?

...sit there with melodeons and fiddles with faces like they're sucking on a lemon and producing excruciatingly boring and unmemorable music...

Or too many young bedroom Dylans?

...the songwriter who has never played anyone else's songs, so he doesn't actually know what a song consists of, has played a not inconsiderable role in the demise of the folkclubs...

I have seen a few of those; encourage singer-songwriters and you will encourage the differently talented as well as the ones who deserve the attention. Coincidentally, I've just noticed that the myspace page for my beloved Chorlton Folk Club actually describes it as a venue for singer-songwriters. But I wouldn't have thought you'd have a problem with original material pushing out traditional.

As for the sour-faced young trad virtuosiii, I've never seen any; I rarely see anyone who looks younger than me playing trad anything, and I'm 47.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:52 AM

aw shucks.....

People think I'm being grumpy on my own account. But the reason i can say the things that I do is that I'm not well enough to do real gigs any more. So I've nothing to fear or expect from anyone

It grieves me though to see younger people than I am going through the same nonsense that i did. I think the folkscene missed a trick when it decided that what i did and several others of my generation wasn't folkmusic, and therefore had no place inside the folkscene - no claim to the folk radio programmes and magazins, no place on the festival stages...

I think the movement would have been stronger with us inside than outside. i was lucky, I got to make records and play other venues, but a lot of people didn't - they just gave up. Ithink its worth (even if its only on mudcat) raising a voice in protest.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

My thought simply is that the performer, wheresoever he be, howsoever he came to be there, and whatsoever he performs, must make it work in that moment, or nothing else matters.

Thanks to Big Al Whittle for the link above, you make Arthur McBride work as well as I've have ever heard--

Tom Bliss's comments above cause me to dig out his web page, as well, and, however one might describe it, his music is a pleasure, as well--

More music, less chat, and we'll all be happier--

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:17 AM

And free

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Surreysinger
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 09:15 AM

Hi Aoife ... if you need to send a message to someone specific ,you can certainly do that, but it's probably better to make it a personal message (PM) . But to do that you need to lose your guest status and become a member of the Forum - easily done and straightforward.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Aoife Mac (again)
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:06 AM

sorry that was meant for JedMarnam or whatever his name is. *shrug*
can't you send personal messages here?! weird board...

embarrassed now, so i'll be off! anyone who's not Jed ignore this... and, uh, and have a nice day. :)

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Betsy at work
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 08:05 AM

Banjiman has started another thread something like "Can Folk clubs get any better" so I'll take any views I have on Clubs / trad or not / acoustic / was the 80's a dull time etc etc to THAT thread and leave this one to what ( I understand ) it's supposed to be .
Now then Paul .......

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:59 AM

Oh, you should go to WMD's website. He's good (even if nearly all of it ain't folk).

More importantly, folk clubs should never exclude that music that its makers say is or will be the new folk music - nor vice versa. The vine does not grow without its roots.

The relationship of that to being able to scratch a living is more vexed.

THe thing that distinguishes "earning a living in folk" from "earning a living in music" is the folk aspect, which for present purposes is wider than folk (1954 def). But even the wider folk is narrower than all music, and the amount one can earn is partly controlled by the amount of money in the market, and partly by the number of suppliers to that market.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Aoife Mac
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:58 AM

heya.

i noticed your request for a phonetic version of "buachaill on eirne" and i went and had a stab at it.

(i know the post is VERY old now, so you may not even care anymore, or have given up on checking for replies. thought i'd just let ya know!)

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:57 AM

I don't know if this is relevant because the fact that I'm on probably influences who comes to my gigs and therefore the percentages, but for a good few months now I've usually (not always) asked the audience fairly early in my set if they would prefer me to do more trad, more contemporary covers, or stick mainly with my own. The number of people who say they they prefer trad is usually very small, often none at all - even in clubs where I've been advised that they normally prefer trad material and/or with trad in the title. Only once have I had a majority wanting trad, and I do have one booking later in the year where I've already been asked to do only trad - but from my very unscientific survey I get the impression that, on the whole, in VERY general 'sweeping statement' terms, taken across the whole gamut of places called folk clubs, on average (is that enough caveat's yet?) perhaps most people who go to places loosely within the 'folk club' category of event seem generally to enjoy trad music, but very few want to hear only that. Yes, Robin Hoods Bay is indeed a great little club - the regulars have a fine stock of trad, but whenever I've played there a majority of the audience have been tourists staying on after chips (they start early then stand in the doorway to keep em in :-)!) who have little knowledge of 'folk.' What's nice is that the tourists seem to enjoy the trad as much as the rest, but anything goes as long as you can win them over. Tom

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 07:36 AM

As ever WLD hits nails on heads, but I take a more optimistic view based on my experiences in recent years. The power base of many clubs has changed and my general impression is they have become/are becoming more inclusive and supporting a wider base of what is accepted as "folk/acoustic music". OK - so there will be those who would like to see more people "upholding the tradition" but they are having to accept the reality of the situation.

Folk music and folk/acoustic music clubs are thriving, and they provide venues for folk of all types to go and get their own particular fix. Though many don't like it, they are able to "uphold the tradition" by way of the fact that there are others (in significant numbers) who support the venues by both playing and listening to wider forms of music; without them the clubs would die a death - and I suspect that in their hearts they know this, but use this forum to indulge in a little harmless moaning. This is a great site and provides therapy for many.

WLD has maybe had a rough ride along the way - sounds like his music does not fall neatly into the "folk tradition", but maybe he has been going to the wrong venues. One club I love is the Bay Folk Club in Robin Hood's Bay - this is probably quite heavily biased towards traditional (there are a good number of locals who sing very traditional songs) but I never get the feeling they don't appreciate a wider brand of music. It's a very well run club, and there's always a great atmosphere.

The Whitby festival will be with us soon - you can certainly get whatever form of "folk" music you want there. WLD said he'd never go to the festival again (not since the 70's) which is a shame because his music would be very welcome in the pubs where I go.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 05:12 AM

Weelittledrummerboy encompassed many of thoughts which I have been unable to express as succinctly as he has, in his post 02 Jul 08 - 07:59 PM.
There are other elements which I would like to add, but this thread is not the place for me to do so, as I am the first to moan about thread creep.
Maybe someone can re-open an existing or open new thread which addressed or addresses the organisation of clubs and how over many years the nature of them has changed for the better or the (perceived) worse .

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:32 AM

You know I hate Bob Dylan's singing and playing! He's a good writer though. But, again, the double standard. Praise Dylan, damn mushroom cloud writers. But he was one.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:10 AM

Yeh true enuff Richard. yeh the songwriter who has never played anyone else's songs, so he doesn't actually know what a song consists of, has played a not inconsiderable role in the demise of the folkclubs.. .... Who killed Cock Robin?


I admit I never saw anyone do it to Silvo.   I don't really want to go into it with other players, but let's just say I saw too much of it. often times when I'd travelled a distance to see players, some protector of the tradition would be there rattling his mouth off in the background in a most annoying fashion.

Lets face it with Dylan and his like, folk music got a break. Most people then as now didn't go to folk clubs. Previous to that, folkmusic was heading to be a turn off for a lot of people.

'singing together' was better than doing sums, but it had its 'off' weeks. TV programmes like Folk cellar seemed to involve some pretty weird characters - people in rugby shirts singing Cosher Bailey with a fixed anal smile, ladies with sub operatic voices that would have been better off sub aqua, anti war songs about the mushroom clouds that would inevitably carry us all off. Pretty grim fare.

Then for a summers lease les Cousins was the center of a cultural revolution in the ordinary folks view of folkmusic. And for that brief period - it looked as though one could earn a living, from folkmusic. People like Brimstone and Lockran carried on the spirit of Greek Street 1966 heroically for while.

But now we are left with, what we are left with.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:23 PM

I never saw anyone do that to Johnny Silvo. Never saw the other two live. And although the frantic diddlers can bore me PDQ the ones I have seen are usually grinning maniacally. A few misfires on the Spandau there WMD.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:59 PM

No that's not true. I didn't mind going and not singing, but all these fucking idiots started going on about how we must protect the tradition. And it bloody well finished off the scene.

First of all they were nasty to people whom I would happily sit there and watch, and a lot of the prformers just pissed off abroad to work.

Johnny Silvo, Wizz Jones, Gerry Lockran - they used to talk and act disrespectfully through their sets - because they said it wasn't real folk music.

If you could produce people like that, I'd still be going to folk clubs. But you broke up the continuity. Nowadays these young kids are being suckered into thinking folk music is like the civil service.

They think they can sit their with melodeons and fiddles with faces like they're sucking on a lemon and producing excruciatingly boring and unmemorable music and they will be awarded a place in the folkmusic hall of fame.

And awarding them a major recording contract isn't going to work either. Believe you me, I know - I would have sold my ass musically speaking, but if they don't think you'll shift the units - they will lose interest so quick you won't believe it.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:11 PM

It occurs to me (on getting home from a well-lubricated singaround, so logic and typing may be somewhat impaired) that John is mourning the loss of a folk audience, i.e. a large body of punters who want to listen to folk music but don't want to get up and do it themselves. I think it's probably true that a folk audience these days contains a much higher proportion of performers than, say, 30 years ago, to the point where non-performing punters are likely to be in the minority. My problem with John's position is that I can't see anything wrong with being a punter who also gets up and performs - as long as they can actually do it, the more the merrier.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:01 PM

Perhaps one of the reasons that Lewes is able to support two clubs is that we have rather different formats.

The Royal Oak is more toward the concert club end of the spectrum. They have a guest most weeks. After an opening tune session, the residents take the first half before the guests first slot then a few selected floor spots will start the second half.

We at the Lewes Arms have a smaller and cosier room and are more floor spot oriented and have more open nights. We do our utmost to get anyone on who wants a go. Residents take their turn amongst the others and will drop out to make room if there are a lot who want to perform. Hence for us, there is no distinction between a punter and a floor singer. Obviously, on busy nights, there may be too many to get on so a bit of selection has to be done.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 05:27 PM

Not all clubs followed the "resident/floor singer/guest" template, and the move away from this was not always a bad thing - I knew of several clubs which existed mainly to boost the residents' egos, and floor singers found it hard to get a look-in.

The clubs I started going to in Essex in the early 1970s didn't have residents doing long spots. The Brentwood club was run by Geoff and Pennie Harris, and as I recall they'd just do a slightly extended floor spot (2 or 3 numbers) to start off each half. The Chelmsford club, in my time, didn't have any residents as such, but had a lot of very high standard floor singers.

Although I would always want to perform myself, I would also be happy to listen to the floor singers and the guest, because these would invariably be good. The guests would usually be established performers, and when the club booked less well-known performers you could usually be confident that they would also be good-quality as the club had a standard and reputation to maintain.

Most of the clubs I now see advertised seem to consist mostly of floor spots, sadly many of which are pretty average. They may occasionally book a local performer as a guest, but unless the club has already established a benchmark standard I am unlikely to be tempted by someone I know nothing about.

These days I hardly ever go to folk clubs. Instead I usually go to music sessions where I can play all evening, and usually get in a song or two if I like.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:28 PM

Yes, LJW, I'd call such a person a semipro; the point being that they could not support themselves from folk (etc).

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:05 PM

"An occupational pension of £10,000" now that'd be nice!!!
(Pro singer nearing retirement)

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:54 AM

"LJW, the core point (I think) is whether folk is the source of the entirety of ones income. How much that income might be is at most a subsidiary point."

I take your point, but maybe didn't make mine properly. Many of us are now retired or semi-retired (those who look back fondly on the folk revival like it was yesterday) and include a number who "make a living" out of paid performance. I suspect it includes a considerable number who supplement their income (be it lump sum redundancy payment/early retirement or whatever) by gigging/tuition/busking etc, and are dependent upon that income and would choose to call it their profession. Suppose someone has an occupational pension that pays around £10,000 but gigs etc for another £6000; by your definition you would not include them? I would - though I accept it wouldn't fulfill the criteria of "primary source of income".


"my theory is that the clubs are failing to supply what the punters want. I don't think your average punter is greatly entertained by a long succession of people doing one song each"

Probably true - though different "clubs" cater for different needs. There are no shortage of places around Sheffield where you get both; venues where "punters" can watch guests and local artists do "a proper turn", and venues where the "punters" are the performers patiently waiting their turn to do their "turn".

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Banjiman
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:53 AM

I don't know about museums but Wendy (Arrowsmith my other half) is doing a gig along with John Wilson in Richmond (UK, North Yorkshire before anyone in Southwest London or Virginia gets excited) Library. This will be a song writing talk with a "set" of about an hour for each performer.

Certainly a first from our point of view. It is funded by North Yorks County Council.....and fair play to them for funding something like this, almost makes you glad to pay your council tax!

Paul

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:47 AM

To Tom Bliss:

Museums often have educational outreach programs that are presented offsite, frequently in schools, and they also can sponsor concerts, cultural events, and even festivals. If you like working with kids, one of the hottest new museum activities is the "overnight", essentially a slumber party in the museum, where a folksinger with storytelling skills can be the center piece--

Here at least, many schools have special budgets that allow them to bring performers in (often paid for by PTA fundraisers), and the central offices are not involved--as to the other, I've created programs that needed to satisfy state and local core curiculum objectives, and it is and time consuming work that needs the resources of an organization that is capable of working with a bureaucracy--

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:00 AM

I don't think your average punter is greatly entertained by a long succession of people doing one song each, much though the singers themselves might enjoy it.

I've seen some very, very good performances by floor singers. A couple of those, four or five good-to-memorables and a chorus song or two adds up to a pretty good evening, to my mind.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:51 AM

Phil's point that by paying to get in on singers' nights, you are making a financial contribution, even if you never attend a guest night, is right. On the other hand, if it means that there are fewer in the audience on the guest nights, there is less money in the pot on those nights; and more empty seats, which affects the atmosphere. But then no-one is obliged to turn up out of some sense of duty to the club, or to the guest. The folk clubs do not owe any of us a living. I suppose there were always people who didn't attend guest nights, but there seem to be a lot more of them now, and fewer regular paying punters, and my theory is that the clubs are failing to supply what the punters want. I don't think your average punter is greatly entertained by a long succession of people doing one song each, much though the singers themselves might enjoy it. I think yer punter wants to see somebody doing a proper turn, and enjoys hearing a few floor spots as well. I could, of course be wrong; which is why I'm interested to hear what the punters think.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:43 AM

LJW, the core point (I think) is whether folk is the source of the entirety of ones income. How much that income might be is at most a subsidiary point.

WMD, go on, pick the gratuitous philological exhibitionism out of that!

Yes, lots of people would rather sing and play than sit and watch. I often don't go to any of the main concerts at festivals my side dance at. The only concert in the last year I felt I really HAD to go to was the Young Coppers at the Pigs Ear minifest (and then sod me I felt unwell and could not last for the second set).

Oh, and for the purposes of this thread the main point is also not whether folk-ish music is folk or not. I believe that not knowing the difference dilutes what marketeers would call the "USP" (the unique selling proposition), but others believe in brand diversity. One of the consequences of polarisation is that today many who like one type of music will not pay to see another. I once went to see a fine (I had been told) Scottish singer of traditional material - and alas she was ill. An excellent performer was substituted at the last second and I felt cheated and very disappointed because the said substitute was 100% contemporary.

When I was last involved in running a club we often had good-ish turnouts for guests - rammed for Mundy-Turner for example, standing on the landing outside for Les Barker and for Sid Kipper, but almost no-one turned up for Keith Christmas's Magic. But the only way we could afford guests of that calibre was because of a gratuitous hump in our cash flow. Back in the early 60s one could ram a club full with an entry fee of 2 pints of beer (equivalent). Now an entry fee of 2 pints of beer is where the attendance starts to fall off a cliff unless the artist is a superstar.

Not enough money in leads to not enough money out to the professional musician. But I would guess that back in the early 60s there was Sidders and Cambridge and not a lot of other festivals whereas no one can if minded and able to afford it go to a folk festival or folk ale every weekend all summer.

The other factor I see is that back in the early 60s there were a few guitarists in particular on another planet from the rest. Soon there was a small but small band of killer fiddlers and squeezers too. Now there are hundreds of semi-pro and even amateur players and even bodhranners who are spectacular - but not so many who pass the old grey whistle test.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 09:09 AM

It puzzles me why some are prepared to admit to not supporting guest nights (because forking out a few quid and not getting to sing is a no no for a good night out) and then wonder why some club organisers throw in the towel.

I think I'm the only person who's been 'prepared to admit' this, so I'd better respond.

Yes, I'll admit to skiving off (most) guest nights, but no, I don't think I'm undermining the club. Usually I go to about one guest night in six and about one singers' night in three. But we don't have many guest nights, so in any one year I'll probably see one guest and go to 15 singer's nights. I'm pretty sure I'm contributing more to the club that way - including putting more in the kitty - than if I only went to the guest nights. Apart from anything else, while some of those singers' nights are well-attended (we've had anything up to 20 acts on), some of them - particularly in the holiday periods - are very thin, to the point where the presence of one extra performer (& listener) actually makes a difference.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:30 AM

Hi Cecil Sharp Ate My Hamster and welcome to Mudcat....

Good Grief! It's YOU!

i) An irritating but fairly amusing wind-up merchant... Now that I can live with.

And I can cope with Subcomandante Snail and even folk club Stalinist even if I don't know what I've done to deserve them. My crack about revealing your identify to the citizens of Mudcaster was intended as banter in the same vein. It seems my timing was bad; I didn't realise "unpleasant things" were happening to you. I must say though that if you insist on rattling your stick against the bars of the cage, it is best to make sure the door is locked first.

ii) The last thing I would want to do is damage your (or anyone else's) reputation or that of the Lewes Arms - I was merely semi-flippantly responding to your earlier comments. Maybe your writing style comes over as more pugilistic than you intend and mine comes over as less frivolous than I intend.

This is a different matter. It's hard to know if you thought through what you were saying. It has become fashionable amongst some people (fortunately, very few) to claim that there is a widespread opinion that professional folk performers are an abomination, money grabbing harlots blah, blah, blah... I see very little evidence that anyone holds that opinion and those that make the claim have become increasingly equivocal about who they are accusing. I have been directly accused of it myself by someone of rather more influence than you. I think the people making this claim are doing serious damage to the folk scene by spoiling relations between folk professionals and the volunteers who run the folk infrastructure. So, sorry if I seem pugilistic but this is something that matters to me.

Earlier on this thread Tom Bliss reported that 101 clubs on his database have closed since 2001. It could be that the organisers just got fed up with the abuse being hurled at them. After all, now they are being held responsible for the smell in the gents.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:20 AM

"therefore an answer to the argument that playing traditional songs (or even "folk songs") leads to stultification."

I thought that was the aim ........stultification.

I often see you traddy people on mudcat, saying I'm more stultifying than he is, and that guy's sold out....he's hardly stultifying at all. And others say, I thought I was stultifying, then I heard the original version - those source singers, by gum they were really stultifying. In fact Walter Pardon was so stultified, people used to say - hey up Walter, tha's not half stultified tonight!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:51 AM

"PS, if I had to guess at a number of people actually earning the whole of their living from folk and similar music (so excluding those with part early pensions etc - which I think takes out even Ian Bruce as he got some sort of payoff when he was removed from conventional economic activity, as his song "Blue Denim Days" relates (if my memory serves)) I'd put it at more like 100 than 1,000 in England. "

Since those heady days of rampant Thatcherism/Freidmanism the number of folk earning a living from numerous sources increased dramatically, so it may not be realistic to exclude the likes of Ian Bruce from your headcount. Also depends on your definition of "making a living" (I prefer to use "making" rather than "earning" - based on my perception of many professional football players I've paid good money I've "earned" to watch!) Whilst Shell oil tanker drivers "earn" an average of £42000 there are any number of folk musicians who manage to exist on a great deal less than that.

Numerous posters on here bemoan the fact that folk has changed over the years, and wonder what happened to the folk club template of the 60's and early 70's. It still exists in some areas, and remains fairly healthy. It puzzles me why some are prepared to admit to not supporting guest nights (because forking out a few quid and not getting to sing is a no no for a good night out) and then wonder why some club organisers throw in the towel. It's a fact that many more people now are playing an active rather than passive role in "folk clubs", and that must be one of the reasons the picture is changing. I think it's healthy, but then I'm not whittling about where my next booking's coming from, or when I'm next gonna sing, or how long it will be before my turn comes round again etc etc...

The folk/acoustic music scene is thriving - though not necessarily in the direction some folk wanted it to go. Again that puzzles me, because I thought (in my younger, more naive days I have to admit) that folk ethos embraced a form of democracy. Silly me - but I'm older and a little bit wiser now.

Go with the flow - be happy

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: GUEST,LJW
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 07:11 AM

"being an unemployed musician was quite a career opportunity for us northern lads."

"us northern lads"!!!!

Tha nowt burra Midlander!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:58 AM

Other side of the moon? It depends what uniform you have on! And the sun is not out today so I can be as grumpy as I like.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 06:10 AM

God save the North Atlantic Archipelago!

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:52 AM

I'd give you an argument about the Irish thing, but lifes too short. Anyway Irelands not the other side of the moon from us, is it?

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:48 AM

Interesting, Al. Very different timings to the versions I have most heard of both, and in both cases therefore an answer to the argument that playing traditional songs (or even "folk songs") leads to stultification. Both Irish.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 03:24 AM

Al - I didn't say it was all good! I've squirmed, I've cringed, I've made unscheduled trips to the bar and/or the gents. But it's very rarely dull.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 10:24 PM

as you have asked Richard, coincidence is that I have bee putting a couple of trad songs on my site. I play a lot of trad songs for MY pleasure but I've seen guys like Martin Carthy and Brian Peters and the late Tony Rose - and I know the difference between a someone who can get money for singing traditional music and someone (like myself) for whom its just a way pf keeping the chops together (as jazzmen say).

These are a couple that people have asked me about what the chords are, and it seems an easier way of amswering.

http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id30.html

Trad music isn't what I do.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 09:06 PM

Had a delightful evening at a well attended tune session organised by Valmai and MCed by Dan Quinn (a professional musician) and his son Matt (probably on his way to being a professional musician). Looking forward to Thursday at the Royal Oak with Pete Cooper, a wonderful professional musician and fiddle teacher I've had the good fortune to have a couple of workshops with, and Richard Bolton on cello who I've never heard but I'm sure will be excellent. Looking further forward to Saturday when Will Duke will be doing a workshop on the tunes of Scan Tester (sorry folks, sold out) and then performing in the evening. Will is a retired librarian and one of the best English style Anglo-concertina players you'll ever coma across with a lovely tenor voice. He is donating the proceeds of the workshop to the Vaughan-Williams Library. He'll be keeping the evening fee though (tickets still available but hurry.)

It is being able to spend time with such wonderful people, pro and am alike, almost as much as the music that makes me love the folk scene so much.

And I never have to worry about the smell from the gents.

Night, night.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 07:43 PM

ah but you live in the affluent south Richard. us lot. we never had sod all to start with. so being an unemployed musician was quite a career opportunity for us northern lads.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:38 PM

PS, if I had to guess at a number of people actually earning the whole of their living from folk and similar music (so excluding those with part early pensions etc - which I think takes out even Ian Bruce as he got some sort of payoff when he was removed from conventional economic activity, as his song "Blue Denim Days" relates (if my memory serves)) I'd put it at more like 100 than 1,000 in England. I must know to nod to even if not to be bosom buddies with probably half of the regular folkers in Kent and environs and I can only think of one who AFAIK makes an entire living (no pension, no benefits, no other income) from folking, and he is definitely on the singer-songwriter side.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

The psychotic ones with traditional songs - now that sounds like fun: "Folk Club Chainsaw Massacre".

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 06:18 PM

on a singers night you don't see anything that's dull, Phil. they must sell bloody strong beer round that way.

I look on singers night - more as a sort of dialogue with the community. I get to say a bit. And they get to say a bit. And the village bore wangles it, so he gets to say a lot. I mean, that's only human nature.

I tell you one thing though. I've been struggling all night trying to get a load of stuff on my website and Youtube, and I missed my local singers night.

People are a lot more fun than computers - even the psychotic bores who do that traditional stuff.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:30 PM

In my recent experience, the old-style resident group has largely vanished. So there is no longer the focus and continuity. There is also no longer the same faithful support from paying punters. I see a connection.

Again, I've only got in-depth experience of one club, but I think this is wide of the mark. The club I go to works on very much this basis - a roster of regular floor singers, who can expect to do two songs any night they turn up on time, or one if there's an act on. But the audience divides pretty evenly between performers, performers' partners and friends, and listeners - and some of the non-performing listeners are there week in, week out. It's not either/or, in other words - having a lot of floor singers doesn't mean you don't have a lot of non-performing punters. I'm more concerned about the low number of performers who use their spot to do traditional material, but that's another discussion.

To some extent I think there's also a difference between what gets the punters in and what appeals to performers (apart from 'the chance to hear the sound of their own voice', obviously). I remember one guest night I went to where it looked as if the club had had an audience transplant - I was just about the only regular floor singer there. The act was this highly professional band who played contemporary material in a tasteful pseudo-Irish style - they were highly polished and professional, but (at least to my ear) they were bland and they were dull. On the average singers' night you don't see very much that's polished and professional, but you don't see anything dull. I can understand the non-performing punter occasionally wanting something that slips down a bit easier, but I don't think the rest of us can really be blamed for giving this kind of thing a miss.

There are, of course, performers who can do a skilled and professional set without lapsing into blandness - but in my experience they're pretty thin on the ground. I think this is another effect of the decline of the old folk clubs - anyone who's tried to make a living out of this stuff in the 80s and 90s will have had to pitch to audiences well outside the folk circuit, so it's not surprising if some acts end up sounding a bit Radio 2.

I guess John's strictures on floor singers aren't entirely unfounded. I remember our MC talking about one of the first acts we had at the folk club in very excited tones - It'll be a bit different, it'll be £3 in and we'll give him the whole evening, it'll be brilliant! Three quid in and I don't get to sing? Sod that for a game of soldiers, I thought.

Which is how I missed seeing Tom Paley.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:11 PM

Hi Phil. I can see your point; if the club started out as a singers' club, you may well feel that guest nights are not what you were letting yourself in for. Fair enough. But I think it more often works the other way round. And £2 is still modest; I think it's probably roughly equivalent to the 2/6 ~ 3/- we were paying 40 years ago.
KV: sorry if this seems like a hijack; I thought your question was answered early on - we don't think there is a known statistic, but we're guessing that there aren't many of us. That could have been the end of it, but we've taken a slight side-step into trying to determine why that is. But then, have you ever known a thread - or for that matter a discussion or argument that didn't wander round in circles?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:03 PM

absolutely John.

the Travelling People at The Priesthouse in Castle Donnington had one of the best clubs in the country. I met a lady who was in The Travelling People down at Weymouth Festival this year, and she was a bit down in the mouth about things.

I wished I had a dvd of that club to remind her of the magic her band made possible.

Subject: RE: Earning a living in Folk
From: oggie
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:01 PM

To return to Kampervan's initial question...

In the UK I would guess at under 1,000 if you include all those who do add-ons like schools etc and perform "non-folk" gigs. It might be a lot less than that, even into the mid-hundreds mark if you discount those who have a second income or additional support.

There does become a question of definitions (how do you classify someone like Simon Mayor).

I would like to be proved wrong and that there are lots of folkies out there earning a living but....

Steve