BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:42 PM

Meanwhile, Arafat is getting his peepee slapped for having $300 million dollars that belong to ??????

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:50 PM

bazza: "...are a vey clever race" They are a culture not a race. As soon as you start talking about a race, you become a racist.

I didn't want to enter this discussion but now I feel compelled. I thought I agreed with Carole C. but now I know I'm in a league by myself. I don't think I'm anti-semetic or anti-Jewish but I have big problems with the current Israeli policies. I believe that liberals supported the state of Israel at one time but that the shift has occurred because of their treatment of their neighbors.

Unfortunately, the support the U.S. has given Israel has come at a very heavy price. Israel is perceived (by me at least) as an American puppet that is protecting American interests in the middle east. It is an unholy alliance that has created a situation where the Israelis have become oppressors. So I am anti-Israel but I am not anti-Jewish. Is this possible? Surely not all Jews are Israelis. I will even go so far as to say that I'm not even sure Israel has a right to exist as a material state. Zionism is as dangerous as any other extreme nationalism, if not more so.

So there you go. I'm standing here with my chin out.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:04 PM

Hi Fred. I'm Carol's husband. I've lived near Fort Benning for nearly six yeas now and this

I bet you could find a few liberal intellectuals there too, even some of the soldiers.

is one of the funniest things I've seen in a while. I've met lots of intelligent people here but nearly none who could be called intellectual.

A liberal intellectual army officer?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HA HA

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:52 PM

Ha! CarolC, that was pretty funny, I'm sorry to have not got your original sense. I'm a little dumb. I live in a hipster-doofus village that supports a few "alternative" newspapers and a major one that everyone says is left-leaning. But realistically, I bet you could find a few liberal intellectuals there too, even some of the soldiers. It's a good point that criticizing Sharon isn't anti-Israel. I think I've said what I can say--I'm not quite sure that the good things in the U.S. democracy weren't paid for with some of the bad things. It's hard for me to think I know if it could have survived and achieved good without the evil. I just don't know. And I'm not Jewish.
I'm about out of my depth here. But I do have this to say. I've met people who believe the Jewish conspiracy stuff, and even one who maintained the holocaust was a hoax (and she liked Dan Fogelberg). Well, I wasn't there, but if it's a hoax everyone might as well give up, because there's no point in resisting a conspiracy like that. Uncle. I also have some Jewish buddies who wish they could get some help from the big conspiracy sometimes, and not have to go to study in a dangerous place on just a shoestring with a few bucks saved from working like dogs at crappy jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: axman664
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:12 PM

"Yes, the right wing currently has an unholy alliance with Zionists, because in Christian fundamentalist belief Israel must be in Jewish hands for the prophecy of Revelation to be fulfilled."--Nerd

I'm not interested in contesting the above point; I feel that it should be mentioned that there are other reasons why conservatives are tending to ally themselves with Zionists. From what I observe (and I am no political scientist), many conservatives agree that the best way to ensure the security of our democracy is to democratize as much of the world as possible. This is undoubtedly one of the primary motivators for invading Iraq. And certainly if we wish to democratize the Middle East, we must support existing democracies, like that of Israel's, Pakistan's, India's, and now Afghanistan.

A sect of conservatives are called neoconservatives, or "neocons", and I think that many of these neocons are Jewish. Cf: Paul Wolfowitz. So to say that the right wing is anti-semitic is a bit blankety, don't you think?

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:55 PM

Here's what one Israeli Jew has to say about this subject:

Manufacturing Anti-Semites by URI AVNERY

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:39 PM

I'm sure that you don't Carol C. I have to try to not picture you brushing only one tooth in the morning.

As it happens, there are quite a few people in this trailer park who are soldiers stationed at Fort Benning. Do you have difficulty picturing them with a full set of teeth?

You have to understand the people before you can make comments about what they might think.

I don't disagree with this.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:47 PM

I have use for stereotypes: Sanyo, JVC, Sony, GE, Panasonic, Hitachi, like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:07 PM

I'm sure that you don't Carol C. I have to try to not picture you brushing only one tooth in the morning.

Jews do not eat red herring. Pickled herring, yes. You have to understand the people before you can make comments about what they might think.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 03:30 PM

Seems to me what bazza is doing is promoting a stereotype. But it also seem to me that the whole premise of this thread is the promotion of a stereotype. Peraonally, I don't have much use for stereotypes.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:48 PM

The shithead remark was for bazza

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:34 PM

Jews support Israel no matter who is in charge, because the loyalty is to Israel, not to the man. Israel is a democracy and elected Sharon. Someone may not agree with all of his politics, but I can tell you for a fact that Jews overall will support Israel no matter who is in charge.

I dont' disagree with this. My point is that to say that not supporting the current government of Israel amounts to not supporting Israel is a red herring and a non-sequiter.

I am sure that you come into contact with just as many Jews everyday from your perch overlooking the rural Alabama trailer court landscape as you do liberal intellectuals.

You're probably right. But I'm not in a perch overlooking the trailer court. I'm smack dab right in the middle of it the trailer court.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:15 PM

Carol C.

Jews support Israel no matter who is in charge, because the loyalty is to Israel, not to the man. Israel is a democracy and elected Sharon. Someone may not agree with all of his politics, but I can tell you for a fact that Jews overall will support Israel no matter who is in charge.

I am sure that you come into contact with just as many Jews everyday from your perch overlooking the rural Alabama trailer court landscape as you do liberal intellectuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:58 AM

I disagree that supporting the current government of Israel amounts to being "pro-Israel" while not supporting the current government of Israel amounts to being "anti-Israel". That makes just as much sense as saying that to be against the Bush administration amounts to being "anti-US". And to say that you support Jews by supporting the current government in Israel is an impossiblity, since a significant percentage of Jews don't support the current government in Israel.

I support Jews and I support Israel. But I support the Israel that was envisioned by Yitzhak Rabin, not the Israel that is envisioned by Ariel Sharon.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:47 AM

Forgive me brucie. I know Carol's husband from another life and I was quoting him in my reference to Conservative Canadians.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:39 AM

Just because Hardly's been calling you names doesn't make it right for you to be calling JtS names, too.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:35 AM

Conservatives have been far more pro Jewish and pro Isreal in the USA than the left in the last few years.    If you don't believe George Will- how about Ed Koch.   In the current issue of Hadassah magazine Ed Koch (former mayor of New York and strong democratic liberal) has an article on why he is supporting George Bush for president.   He has also appeared on numerouse shows (Imus, Oreilly) to state the same thing.

Koch is a life long democrat.   He says that he disagrees with Bush on just about everything except Israel. He things George Bush has done more to support Jews than any other president, and far more than any other democratic candidate still in the race.   Therefore, he is overlooking all the other issues and supporting Bush.

Koch is a very respected political figure and being Jewish- very aware of the issues.   I think his endorsment is a very strong statement on how conservatives are more supportive of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:33 AM

Hey out there. Someone else want to deal with this shithead? I'm not going to be able to handle it with my normal cool and calm.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:22 AM

bazza: It's genetic I suppose? How foolish. SSDD.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:26 AM

Even if what you say is true, Carol, he's a Canadian Conservative which puts him two shades to the left of me and John Hardly has called ME a liberal.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: bazza
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 03:25 AM

As soon as its mentioned that the Jews run Hollywood the media and banking etc somebody comes up with the racist card,the fact is that they do.They are a vey clever race and have a natuaral apptitude for making money caused I think by christian belief that forbade usary and the Jews filled the gap also the Rabbi,s married thus passing on there knowledge to there children etc where the Christians kept the flock in ignorance and only a few priest had any education.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:28 AM

I don't know, brucie. I haven't met any here myself.

Strick, JtS isn't a liberal. He's a conservative. And I'm not willing to put myself into any categories, since I find that my views about things tend to be all over the spectrum. Sorry to disappoint ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:16 AM

Oh, oh, oh, (raising hand). I know! I know! Two, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:13 AM

Can that be done on the fingers of one hand, or do I just use my elbow?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:10 AM

I'm not arguing with you Fred, or doubting that you've experienced what you say you have. I'm just saying that I'm not in a position to participate in this discussion based on my own experiences, since I have not had that experience myself. I live in rural Alabama. Care to guess how many "liberal intellectuals" there are in the trailer park (across from Fort Benning military reservation) where I live?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:43 PM

Sure, I admit to knowing some liberal intellectuals CarolC. Quite a few more if you use the term "intellectuals" very loosely. I know it's uncomfortable to have one's views vaguely associated with a trend, but get over it. Or don't, and deny that you've ever noticed any such thing as a liberal, or a liberal intellectual. Oh, you already did, okay. I think I've heard of it, though. There's where we disagree, apparently.

I've heard all kinds of things. I've heard people say they wouldn't watch Seinfeld because it was Jewish propaganda. I've heard people ask if Rosh Hashanah was the Jewish "Easter". (Yes, I said, it is, and Tupac Shakur is the Jewish St. Patrick.)

   As for Hollywood I think there's a lot of truth that Jewish people have made big contributions to it. One reason is that Jews were able to get into the business when nobody else saw the potential of it, and another is that Jews have had to have a portable sense of of culture, and could tell cultural stories, when other people couldn't see there were cultural stories to be told. (They just thought things were the way they were.) People can call it a conspiracy if they want, but I usually call it people being who they are, doing their work.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:21 PM

The shift though has been from the right to the left.

Now it's the downtrodden Palestinians who the liberal left has aligned with. More and more Jews who did align with the left now, like me, tend to sit on the fence in a moderate approach to it all.

The common sense approach is that neither an extreme right or extreme left stance will get you anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:29 PM

yes, there is a growing tide of antisemitism, particularly since the war in Iraq.

but that antisemitism seems spread through a lot of communities, left and right.

to suggest that criticism of the current government in israel is antisemitism, is a generalised attack on the right to political comment. it projects negative motives on political opponents.

it implies, you can only comment legitimately where you agree with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:26 PM

"Drink tea and nourish life. With the first sip, joy. With the second,
satisfaction. With the third, Danish."

Well I could be wrong, but my study of Zen or Buddhism never once turned up a reference to Danish.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:48 PM

If you say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:35 PM

"The Buddha taught that one should practice loving kindness to all sentient beings. Still, would it kill you to find a nice sentient being who happens to be Jewish?"

Gee, and I thought it was just for comic relief, like the "ZEN BUBBA" thing that's been circulating.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:33 PM

Zen Judaism is bullshit. There's even less of those knuckleheads then there are Jews for Jesus.

Kendall, George Will is so far in right field that you can't hear him? Maybe you are too far in left field.

The truth is amongst the Jewish community, of which I truly am an active member,is that there is a growing undertone of anti-semitism on college campuses. I think that is related to this article.

Please do not compare George Will's conservative approach to the likes of Rush Limbough or Sean Hannity. You can say he is wrong and not know what he is talking about, I believe he does. MichaelR may laugb that he is not repsected as a journalist, but no one here or anywhere reads anything by MichaelR.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:01 PM

I for one throughly enjoyed "ZEN JUDAISM".

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:08 PM

Guest, 29 Feb 04 - 01:52 PM, if what you're after is to spread hate, please don't use my words to help you do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 04:22 PM

Thank you, Nerd. I'm a little slow at times.

So, let me see if I understand you, GUEST. You don't like Jews because they are part of a conspiracy to do what? Go to synagogues? So if I read you correctly, you don't like Israel because you don't like Jewish people? So, in short, you are a racist. Well, I'm not.

Geh cocken offen yom, then have a nice day.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:54 PM

Brucie, it's an international conspiracy of Jewish bankers and communists. At least that's what they used to say back in the 1930s.

Why would Jewish bankers team up with Communists? No one seemed able to answer that one.

Strick, I for one enjoyed the sermonette. Interesting stuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Peace
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 02:55 PM

"That's because we know who owns Hollywood and controls the media."

Maybe your half of we knows, but this half doesn't. Who?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:52 PM

I saw an action movie recently that was made not too long after 9/11. The bad guys in the movie were a French man and a bunch of Muslims and Arabs. Most of the bad guys in movies these days are Arabs, Muslims, and the Russian Mafia. So in popular culture, Israel isn't even on the radar screen for criticsm or bad guy status.

That's because we know who owns Hollywood and controls the media.

Not everyone is as rich as Mel Gibson and can afford to bypass the owners and controllers to tell the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:21 PM

Kendall: get a hearing aid! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:41 AM

Sorry for the sermonette. I know this isn't the place for it.{

Sure it is (the place for it, that is). There's no restriction "below the line". You might have to put up with irrationally angry responses to it, but this is the place for it.

Liberalism and anti-religious rationalism are the majority here but that's more by default than design. Most "communities" become a bit incestuous in their thinking and this place is no exception -- but just because you will be despised for your POV doesn't mean that you cannot express it here.

Might even be a breath of fresh air (as your presence has been) to have someone so polite AND knowledgeble AND possessing of a different POV than the majority here.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:43 AM

When people do stupid stuff they will try to rationalize it with some verse or story from their respective religions.

But stupid stuff usually comes to taking other folks stuff. This ain't sanctioned by any major religon that I am aware of but it continues.

Follow the bucks!

And give Faith and religion danged break...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:06 AM

I guess I'm over my head in this discussion. I don't hang out with any "liberal intellectuals" so I don't know what kinds of things they talk about. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:34 PM

Right CarolC. It's not even on the radar screen. Except among liberal intellectuals, which is what the subject of this thread is clearly about. Not about people who are eating Freedom Fries or action movies exploiting 9/11,or popular culture generally. No, I don't expect to see a Zionist villian in a theatre near me this or next month. Maybe being raked over the coals has disposed you to want to miss the obvious, but the subject is still a trend among liberal intellectuals, not Everybody. You seem annoyed by the idea that I've heard other people than you criticising Israel. Sorry I think I have, I'm probably mistaken. I live in the Ohio River Valley, and now that I think of it when I thought they said "Zionist" they were probably talking about their "sinuses", which is a common complaint. So, my mistake. Never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:51 PM

ZEN JUDAISM

If you wish to know The Way, don't ask for directions. Argue.

Take only what is given. Own nothing but your robes and an alms bowl. Unless, of course, you have the closet space.

Let your mind be as a floating cloud. Let your stillness be as the wooded glen. And sit up straight. You'll never meet the Buddha with posture like that.

There is no escaping karma. In a previous life you never called, you never wrote, you never visited. And whose fault was that?

Wherever you go, there you are. Your luggage is another story.

To practice Zen and the art of Jewish motorcycle maintenance, do the following: Get rid of the motorcycle. What were you thinking?

Be aware of your body. Be aware of your perceptions. Keep in mind that not every physical sensation is a symptom of a terminal illness. If there is no self, whose arthritis is this?

Breathe in. Breathe out. Breathe in. Breathe out. Forget this and attaining Enlightenment will be the least of your problems.

The Tao has no expectations. The Tao demands nothing of others. The Tao does not speak. The Tao does not blame. The Tao does not take sides. The Tao is not Jewish.

Drink tea and nourish life. With the first sip, joy. With the second, satisfaction. With the third, Danish.

The Buddha taught that one should practice loving kindness to all sentient beings. Still, would it kill you to find a nice sentient being who happens to be Jewish?

Be patient and achieve all things. Be impatient and achieve all things faster.

In nature, there is no good or bad, better or worse. The wind may blow or not. The flowering branch grows long or short. Do not judge or prefer. Ask only, "Can I get this wholesale?"

To Find the Buddha, look within. Deep inside you are ten thousand flowers. Each flower blossoms ten thousand times. Each blossom has ten thousand petals. You might want to see a specialist.

Be here now. Be someplace else later. Is that so complicated?

Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkes.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:36 PM

I didn't think your point was directed at me, Fred. Maybe I'm not getting your point just because my perceptions of things are very different from yours. I've been hearing way more criticisms from the vast majority of people in the US about Muslims, Arabs, Palestinians, the French, "old Europe", and on occasion, even Canada, in the last couple of years than I have of Israel. If I were to try to establish the presence of any trends as far as criticism is concerned, Israel most certainly wouldn't be at the top of the list of countries or peoples who are getting the most criticism.

I saw an action movie recently that was made not too long after 9/11. The bad guys in the movie were a French man and a bunch of Muslims and Arabs. Most of the bad guys in movies these days are Arabs, Muslims, and the Russian Mafia. So in popular culture, Israel isn't even on the radar screen for criticsm or bad guy status.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:06 PM

CarolC my point just isn't directed at you and your opinions in particular. Maybe that's the part you miss? It's quite facile to compare a thing to a few other things, yet it may still seem that some come up much more often than others that might also. It is a trend when British military provides a large share of villians and buffoons in movies. Or when the bad guys tend to be either Europeans or Dennis Hopper. Noticing a trend may feel unflattering to someone who'd rather not think so, but it's really a separate question from whether particular criticisms are valid or not.

George Will is pretty good at criticising Bush from a conservative point of view, and as often as he alienates me out with his perspective, I try to look at other points of view. What kind of liberal would I be if I didn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:29 PM

I guess I don't understand your point then, Fred, about "a lot of other countries, on balance". I can only speak for my own reasons for doing things, but when it comes to criticizing countries, Israel, and South Africa and the US South during aparthied, all have received similar criticisms from me at one point or another. Other countries get criticized by me for different reasons. I criticize the US about as much as I do Israel. South Africa is no longer problematic in the ways that it used to be, so I don't tend to focus on that so much.

Most of the other countries I might criticize are being made more problematic than they might otherwise be because of interference from the US, so I would like to see what happens in those coutries without our interference before I form any solid opinions about how they do things.

I find myself agreeing with your second paragraph in your 28 Feb 04 - 06:35 PM post. But that's hardly surprising. I've never had much use for the "opinions" of Mr. Will.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:35 PM

Well CarolC you may disagree, but the example of South Africa doesn't address my opinion about "a lot of other countries, on balance". It only addresses the "compared to other countries" that I pointed out. I'm sorry if you were raked over the coals for your opinion, and I don't mean to imply that yours is trendy, but I think I do see a bit of a trend.

   Will's column roller-paints a big hunk of the world as Euro-loony and anti-semitic, and is so busy with it he doesn't have time to express an opinion about Israel. Hunh. Without saying whether he does or doesn't think there's grounds for legitimate criticism of Israel, his mush of accusation seems pretty darned cowardly. The possibility that a current trend of criticism might be sympathetic to that of many American Zionists themselves doesn't seem to occur to him, and yet my friend Seth despises Sharon, and only returned from studying in Israel because of his father's health.

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Frankham
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:20 PM

Anti-semitism is not the same thing as criticism of Israel's policies. I am an American and am critical of many of my country's policies but that doesn't make me an anti-American except in the mind of narrow bigots.

I would imagine that there are quite a number of Israeli's who are critical of the Sharon regime. I know that they are often "refusniks" and put in jail.

George Will can write fairly well and purports to have a modicum of persuasion in his arguments. He is opinionated, however, and reflects a Right-wing point of view. That's why he is on the op-ed columns and not to be taken as the final word on anything. In short, it's spin.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
From: Strick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:00 PM

But he does love baseball.