Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:32 PM

Try putting the capo on the first fret of a flute, getting a clarsach into eight sharps/four flats, or finding a diatonic moothie player who routinely has a G# out and ready.

It helps to understand how the various instruments in the room work. Sometimes you might be in a session entirely composed of guitarists or chromatic button accordion players, more often you won't be.

The kind of rudeness that ticks me off is the opposite - playing a simple traditional dance tune ina roomful of guitarists and finding that not a one of them even attempts an obvious three-chord accompaniment. Most of those tunes were never intended to be played as unaccompanied solos. How hard can it be for somebody to accompany The Mason's Apron or Greenwoodside if they can play stuff as harmonically complicated as Willie Nelson songs? It doesn't matter if you fluff a few bars, TRY.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:23 PM

G# is no problem at all. Just put a capo on the first fret and play as if in G.

We've been through this (and some other stuff in this thread) in another recent thread.

G# is a problem in many (most in the UK?) sessions. Sure it's fine for the guitar players. Other fretted instrument players might just have a capo with them. The fiddler for example might struggle and the poor G/D melodeon player for example is sunk.

There are sociable session keys. G and D are the best for the type of mix I usually encounter.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Nick
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:14 PM

The pub I sing and play in regularly doesn't have the problem. If people want to sing unaccompanied they can and do. And if people want to play in whatever key they like they can. I have a fiddle playing friend who often plays along with things I do and I will check keys before starting if I want him to join in; if I particularly want to sing in Bb he makes the choice of either simplifying what he plays and joining in or goes to the bar or whatever but with no bother either way.

It's because I'm used to playing in a place where people have a measure of respect and consideration and tolerance for each other (and it is a broad church from jigs and airs from the players to unaccompanied singing to a singer/songwriter who performs his own stuff - often in G#! - to two young lads who play Oasis and modern stuff to sea shanties) that the actions I came across in Whitby were alien, bizarre and came across as so crass.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM

G# is no problem at all. Just put a capo on the first fret and play as if in G. And why should any key necessarily be a problem for vocals? It depends on the song and who is singing the melody, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:52 PM

If the expectation in that session is that familiar songs are fair game for accompanists, then G# is antisocial. Take it up to A or down to G. It's got such a limited range this can't possibly matter for any singer.

If you have a really individual take on the song which requires it to be unaccompanied by anyone else, that's different. But shutting out participants from what would ordinarily be a participatory art form needs compelling artistic reasons.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Nick
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:20 PM

Unlikely that it was the same guy as the person I originally referred to it knew the words perfectly without any prompting (and sang it very well without any help from anyone).

What's a strange key for Shoals of Herring? I sing it in G# personally. Does that mean I'm at risk (with justification - from the tone of your message, Murray) of being drowned out by some twat who thinks he knows 'best'?

I was in the Black Horse myself but left before any singing started.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:19 PM

We had a fellow once start singing "Red River Valley"...from a songsheet....and then he would segue directly into "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean"...from a second songsheet...then back to "Red River Valley" again...and so on!

He was singing acapella, and had mixed up the songsheets, but he apparently did not realize that he was singing 2 different songs altogether.

Impossible? Well, no, not if you know Harry. He's very, very old, and his mind tends to wander.

That was probably the most bizarre thing that ever happened at out songcircle, and it just about brought things to a screeching halt that night, I can tell you. ;-)

He wasn't being rude, though.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:07 PM

If I can act as devil's advocate here, I was in the Black Horse in Whitby this afternoon and one of the participants sang "Shoals of Herring".

I have to say I was reminded immediately of this thread.

No way of knowing if it was the same person, but he did sing it an a most unusual key, (and a most unusual style) and then had to keep referring to a sheet of paper for the words.

After hearing this, I can, to a degree, empathise with the musicians referred to in Nick's first post.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 02:57 PM

The reason people sing unaccompanied is because that is the way they like to sing. No one should a EVER join in unless invited by the person singing. That is good mannered. Wait for your own turn to play your instruments!!!!!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 02:14 PM

I once played an instrumental version of "Silver Bell" on the autoharp...kinda pleased with myself for getting it 'pretty well', when a couple of guitar players in the group took it on themselves to demonstrate that it is supposed to modulate after a couple times thru...and naturally into keys my autoharp couldn't follow.
   I'm not sure I looked properly impressed and grateful for their help.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Bert
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 01:55 PM

Again at a Philadelphia FFS session, there was a group of old ladies who had obviosly only come for the refreshments and a good gossip.

Their noise was drowning out the song circle in the next room. When it came to my turn I put down the guitar, stood up and sang a very loud version on The Barley Mow which drowned out their inane chatter completely.   They quietened down after that.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: terrier
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 12:20 PM

It's not just the singers that suffer from other peoples rudeness at sessions, how many times have I heard a less experienced player start a tune (that they've probably practiced at home a thousand times and can play perfectly well at their own speed), only to have it taken over by "better" players and speeded up until the original player is totaly lost and gives up!
Meybee these "better" players (I won't call them musicians) should remember that they also were at one time "beginners" and use their skills to encourage players with less experience.

T.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:56 AM

"How do you like these people who come waltzing into a session, plant themselves just right so they are next, do their thing, and leave?"

oh, Kendall! YES! That ranks JUST behind those who believe they are obligated to do every 3rd song in is group of 10-12 singers!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,HP
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:30 AM

MMmm. I am a singer principally, and a poor concertina player. If I am singing in a concert or a singers club then I appreciate, but don't necessarily expect, some respect. After all, it's my job to sing the song in such a way as to cause my audience to want to listen. But in a session I tend to assume that the idea is to do 'joining in' stuff. Most musicians let me jam in, bum notes and all, with tunes I can only half play (albeit I'm drowned out by eight melodians anyway!) so it's only fair for me to pick songs I'm not precious about and to sing them in a key that enables people to join in. The experience may not be my preferred one, and the musicians will propably not hear my favourite songs, but we all get at least some enjoyment for the sake of a bit of compromise.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: fi_in_nz
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:03 AM

I saw something similar in Whitby on Sunday when an a capella duo asked the audience not to join in the chorus because they did it differently and the audience joined in (and part buggered up the song for them) anyway. I sing the Blue Cockade which is different from the White Cockade (mostly in terms of word order) and I nearly always remember to ask the audience not to sing the White Cockade, but whether I remember or not there is always someone who joins in (invariably singing the white cockade). Seems a folk audience just can't resist. Changing the key on a singer though is just plain boorish and I'm surprised the singer didn't object; to be honest it sounds as though these musicians were extracting the michael. F

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 09:40 AM

Yo

Last night in the FILO Whitby, whilst singing a song that had been requested of me two musicians held a conversation all through the song. After I had finished , in a somewhat strained tone I thanked them very much and said next time one was singing I would return the compliment and talk all the way through their song for accompaniment. (I didn't by the way) I was informed by one of them that they were discussing how good I was! To which I replied did they have to do it all through the song.

Being a generally jovial and fairly tolerant person I was fairly taken aback at my reaction and even apologised later to some of the persons present about my outburst.

I must retain my calm in future after all it is their right to have a conversation whenever they like about whatever they like I suppose.

CC

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:11 AM

Hiya Mick,
                         Long time no fondle. My castanets are full and fruity as usual.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:00 AM

"What we have here is a failure to communicate" (Strother Martin)

Personally, I like to have people join in, but I'd prefer they do so on the chorus only. There are so many versions of songs besides mine (the right one) that if someone insists on singing a different version from the one I'm offering, I'd prefer they don't muck it up.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:00 AM

I think there may be a difference between a booked sit-down concert and a session or song-session. Nonetheless there is still a tendency to say "get over yourself". If the performer doesn't want an audience he doesn't need to sell tickets, he can always go back to his (previous) day job and play with himself in his bedroom where no doubt no-one will interfere.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:50 AM

Menno's quote of what Tom Lehrer said reminded me of what Paul Stookey (I think it was Paul) said many years ago in a Peter Paul and Mary concert, when introducing a song where he thought the audience was going to want to join in. I'll try and remember the words.

....and a little voice inside your head is going to say "sing -- sing -- SING!" - and you know, you're REALLY gonna wanna sing! ........PLEASE DON'T!!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,banjoman9
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:46 AM

Hi - I could tell a few tales about the Elsinor in Whitby, but the worst was when I (A disabled singer/musician) went into a session there and headed for a chair which seemed vacant. I was immediatley told that I couldn;t sit there because it was "resrved in case a musician turned up" This despite my obvious disability. I left
On another occasion back in the sixties, I went to a Tom Paxton concert in Liverpool. When he started his set, the audience joined in the first song. Tom stopped and asked them not to join in (except on chorus) unless he asked them. Otherwise, he said he might as well go sit in the bar of the pub opposite and just telephone the doorman with the next song for the audience to sing.
After that, we enjoyed a great evening with Tom Paxton.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: ossonflags
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:42 AM

No.

How's the castanets hanging Teddo?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:39 AM

There are those who don't know anything.
There are those who don't even suspect anything.

How do you like these people who come waltzing into a session, plant themselves just right so they are next, do their thing, and leave?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:15 AM

Did anybody else have to look up 'solipsism' in a dictionary?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Menno
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:21 AM

"Oh - one more thing. One of the more important aspects of public folk singing is audience participation, and this happens to be a good song for group singing. So if any of you feel like joining in with me on this song, I'd appreciate it if you would leave - right now." - Tom Lehrer, introduction to "The Irish Ballad".

Generally, I don't mind if people join in when I sing with guitar, but if I'm singing with my hand placed over the strings, that should be a hint to most people that no chords are wanted on this song thankyouverymuch.

My favorite party piece is "The Sick Note", which I *always* do a cappella. Many years ago, I was a-walking one morning in May, when I came on a pub called Johnny Fox's, (containing perhaps 5% Genuine Irish, the rest being tourists, but that's another story) where volunteers were asked to sing. Apparently, the guitarist there wot not of the term "A cappella", and started playing along with me. In several of his own keys of course. Now I was a guest there and didn't want to p*** off the locals, so I just soldiered on, said "thank you" and left the stage.

I reserve the right, on every tenth occurrence or so, to break out the Leatherman and cut the pillock's guitar strings.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: ossonflags
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:29 AM

Sorry to say Nick things like this are becoming the norm rather than the exception.

I find the old mehod of "shusshing" about as offensive.Nowt wrong with a few of the audiance having a word discreetly with the offenders, after all it is their session

Bettsy's method is one I thoroughly approve of and have actually used on one or two occasions !!!

Not altogether foolproof though. I did stop singing in a session once, as the noise levals of two of the "audiance" had reached the point were the putty was falling out the window frames. I asked the two participants politely if it was ok for me to carry on singing, or were they discussing something of national import.

I was promptly rounded on and was told I was being very rude for interupting a private conversation!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Nick
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:01 PM

"I bet Nick regrets the Day he started a thread on Mudcat"

Not the first and won't be the last I'm sure. Anyway it's better than being ignored.

I recounted the story to the people at our local singaround last night to much the same reaction as I have had here but with one unforseen side effect. For the first verse of the song I did half the participants chimed in and suggested I sing it in C and then ...

This one may live with me for a while yet.

Anyway back up to Whitby tomorrow and I have my camera with me this time (smirk)

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST,Mifd
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:52 PM

...so it's happened to us all, I've stopped more than once in the middle of a song to say "I sing this unaccompanied", but what's wrong with other folk quietly requesting the rude one to desist? If it's a mannerless man it's best if a woman hushes him and if a woman (not so common - ie. the habit not the woman)- that way there's not so likely to be umbrage taken!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: growler
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:23 PM

I bet Nick regrets the Day he started a thread on Mudcat

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Willie-O
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:21 PM

It has long seemed to me that many singers have hard-wired versions of songs they sing--they CAN'T adapt to a different reading without shock treatment. Just one of those things.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:14 PM

As someone who frequently tortures respected old songs into newer clothes, I'll agree with that - but with what for example a trad singer recently called my "rock and roll guitar" on Maui I usually manage not to get sung over. One exception would be a well known banjo player whose driving tenor can walk on anything and often does.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:35 PM

Yep, I agree with that sentiment, at least in part. I think that the participants have an obligation to listen to the version the singer is doing. The singer has the right to interpret a song as they "hear" it. For me, this means I may enunciate, or add dynamics as I want to interpret. Drives me nuts when someone insists on singing along the way they know the song, instead of listening and then going with me. When it is their turn, please, by all means, sing it like you want. But please give me the courtesy of interpreting it as I hear it. You don't have to like my version, but don't try to change it on me while I am performing it. I just saw this done to a singer recently. She was doing her interpretation of a song, and doing it her way. Another fairly well known singer insisted on chiming in and doing it her way. I wanted to scream at her to sit down and let the singer sing.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:08 PM

There is one little thing that tends to get up my nose:

More often than not, when I learn a song, I work at it some. If it's a ballad, I might go through several versions of it, and although I often sing it straight as I got it from my source (book, record, whatever), every once in a while I will put together a composite of a couple of versions. A folklorist or "ethnic purist" may raise an eyebrow, but I think it can make for a better telling of the story. In short, I study the song and make some decisions about it, and how I'm going to do it.

There are some ballads that can be stretched out for half an hour, like, say "Lord Randal," where the "testament" part ("What will you leave to your. . . .") can get repetitive and downright boring. I include a verse or two of that part so the idea is there, but not the whole bloody litany, which would bore both me and my audience to tears and doesn't really add to the story.

So I sing the song. Then some dork, usually with a copy of Rise Up Singing or The Folk Singer's Wordbook, will say, "Hey, you left out four verses!" and then proceed to sing the verses that I carefully and thoughtfully omitted.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM

I sort of like the idea of being a wort culprit. In fact, the Wort Culprits is a darned fine name for a band. I believe you're onto something, Woodsie!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: woodsie
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM

Or even "Worst"

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:20 PM

I think it's important to pay attention to the unwritten rules, if only so one knows what one can get away with when breaking them. The breaking part can add a lot of fun, so long as it's respectful and good-natured. My opinion, anyway.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:18 PM

Barry's drummer was playing a dumbek. The guy could play, but didn't have any off switch or mute button. As I recall, we came closer to having a fist-fight than I've ever witnessed. Ah, it was a grand night!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: woodsie
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:05 PM

Not me Rich (but I think I might know whom!) If it is the TB they're on about, then, I'm probably the wort culprit. I am interested in a lot of the stuff being played/sung but get a bit restless when one of the regulars breaks into a mediocre version of fields of athenry/green fields of france. I never talk through a newcomers set, no matter how dire!

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:37 AM

A "genital" slap? What if it's someone like Avril Betts? She would probably want more! LOL

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 10:14 AM

Sorry, misread this 1st time as:

쳌esometimes even a genital slap
will do......쳌f

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:17 AM

Hi Woodsie, is that you being a guest?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Midchuck
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 08:50 AM

Never assume it's ok to join a group. To avoid unpleasantness, ASK.

Kendall is right, in spite of being from Maine. Maybe it's his British wife. Better yet, listen for a while, then ask.

Keep in mind, at festivals, sometimes what looks like a jam is a group practicing for a set they're to do - especially when it's a pickup group formed for that performance. They really don't want any help at that point.

Agree on shaky eggs. Also spoons. Also bones, unless the player really knows his stuff and it's the right kind of music. Actually, that applies to most percussion instruments.

Of course, washboard players who attempt to join a jam that isn't jug band stuff, or zydeco, may be killed without notice, let, or hindrance.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: foggers
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 07:48 AM

"And one more word about people who insist on joining in when you're performing-- I would like to throttle the person who invented those appalling shaky chicka-chicka egg things!" Could not agree more Briagha - they are the eggs of Satan!

My friend and Mudcatter Mandotim has described an interesting technique for dealing with egg-shakers with no sense of timing during a set ( rather than a session or sing-a-round). He has an egg with nothing inside,which is offered to the offender to use as a superior instrument for the professional percussionist, which requires specific skills. Of course, when they shake it there is no sound. When he takes it back to demonstrate that it does work, he has a functioning egg up his sleeve, so sound is produced as normal.

As for the issue of rudeness at sessions, I reckon it come down to establishing some sense of custom and practice for a regular session, and for folks to be prepared to deal with behaviour which breaches that. I like the sanctions described so far- from hard stares, a polite but firm word, to mass exodus and/or drenching in non-beer.....

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Alan Day
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 07:37 AM

Our band was booked for a Folk Club spot in Southampton from memory it may have been The Anchor.An old friend worked for the local BBC and said that she would have a word with a few people in the organisation and try and get a recording team down there to record us,which she did and the Folk club was notified of their intention.When we arrived it was packed and a steady stream of their local performers did their bit on stage and the organiser with every one had a job to get them off stage.The first half performance was cancelled owing to the regulars insisting that if they did not get on stage they would not go there again.The second half was identical to the first and with the same demands on the organiser.With thirty minutes to go a local singer started his act accompanying himself on an amplified guitar.With eight minutes to go the organiser pulled out the plug of the amplifier to get him off stage.We did one number and an encore.
My word those Southampton people know how to make you feel welcome.
Al

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 07:26 AM

I go to one every week in Eltham - all people want to do is drink and talk. Nobody is actually interested in music.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:43 AM

Never assume it's ok to join a group. To avoid unpleasantness, ASK.

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Hand-Pulled Boy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:37 AM

Most regular folk sessions are run by competent people who ensure good order is given to performers. Whitby's pubs were (in my opinion) a shambles of being too busy and too noisy over the weekend evenings. Breakaway sessions in the same room even! Maybe I just went in the wrong pubs?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM

Could it be my Marshall stack that keeps getting me thrown out of sessions rather than my playing then?

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Briagha
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:59 AM

About ten years ago, I was booked to sing (and play) in a northern California pub. I was well known in the area, though I'd never played at that venue before. There was a session that was scheduled from 7:00 to 9:00, and then I was supposed to play at 9. Though I'd never been to that particular session before, I knew most of the people there, and had been invited by a few friends to join them, so I arrived at 7:00, tuned my guitar, and headed for a seat. Before I could get within ten feet of the group, the session leader (who knew of me and knew that I was scheduled to play after them) looked up and said "Sorry- don't join us unless you know all the tunes." Even though I knew the tunes, I was so put off by that remark that I just put away my guitar and slunk over to the bar to wait for my set to begin, and it was years before I'd even consider joining in a session.

On the brighter side, I was visiting a friend in Galway a year or so ago, and we went to his local pub where a session was under way. I was content just to listen, but after a while my friend told the group "Here's a lady from America who's a friend of mine and a singer, so I hope she'll give us a song." I was caught by surprise, but did manage to offer an unaccompanied song. Everyone listened, no one joined in (though I'd not have minded if they did), and once I'd finished I was greeted with enthusiasm and welcomed into the group.

Neither boorishness nor kindness is confined to one side or the other of the Atlantic.

And one more word about people who insist on joining in when you're performing-- I would like to throttle the person who invented those appalling shaky chicka-chicka egg things!

briagha

Subject: RE: Worst singaround/session rudeness ever?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:42 AM

...I bet it's damn tough when you're drunk...

I have visions of a drunken bum trying to plug all the holes at once trying to suck up his beer through it.