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BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ???
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Fuzzy Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:53 AM Religion is a form of therapy that keeps one from going mad. Fuzz |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:44 AM The Bible has probably been used as camouflage as long as it has been in print. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM Well, he obviously thinks he's superior to the rest of you...and he's obviously mistaken in that assumption. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:43 AM There is a married guy in our office - reads the Bible every lunchtime at his desk ( likes everyone to see he's reading it ).It's also common knowledge that he is shagging - sorry - having an affair- with a married woman who works in our office. I just can't get my head round these situations. I don't care who is shagging who - that's life - but flaunting this Bible - what is it all about ?? Is it an invisible protection mechanism that I haven't been told about ??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Ooh-Aah2 Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:27 AM I would like to endorse Don Firth's recommendation of 'The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason'. The roots of the rot are very well analysed there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 05 Nov 04 - 12:02 AM Try this: Religion is normal but organized religion is what some used to call "un-sane," like many governments and reality TV. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:10 PM Spirituality is the ticket allright, Stilly. It's the body, so to speak, of the matter, and organized religion is a suit of gaudy clothes that some people want to dress that body up in. They then fight each other over differing clothing styles, which is a total waste of their time and energy. Religion involves rules and restrictions, ceremonials, hierarchies, temporal power, political power, and money. It defends old territory and seeks to conquer new territory. Spirituality involves the building of self-awareness and awareness of others, and the accomplishment of positive personal change through expanding those awarenessnesses. It does not set forth a list of rules and restrictions. It discovers new territory, but seeks to conquer only self (in the sense of overcoming one's own weaknesses and finding one's strengths). Religion is an organizational matter. Spirituality is a personal matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Nov 04 - 11:07 AM I always liked that Dave Allen ending also, and have used it on occasion as a response to religious friends who try to bring me under their umbrellas. Points to clarify: "religious" and "spirituality" are related but are not the same thing. Religion: institution to express belief in a divine power [emphasis on "Institution"] religious belief: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny A Jungian reading from http://www.tearsofllorona.com/jungdefs.html">this site (one block west of LaLa land, so wade through here at your own peril, but its kind of interesting in a California sort of way). Religion: a subjective relationship to certain metaphysical, extramundane factors. A kind of experience accorded the highest value, regardless of its contents. The essence is the person's relationship to God or salvation. Jung called them psychotherapeutic systems and believed they contained, offered a gradiant for, and transformed instinctual (hence asceticism), nonpersonal energies, giving people a cultural counterpole to blind instinct, help through difficult transitional stages, and a sense of meaning. They also help separate the growing person from his parents. For Jung, the unconscious had a religious function, and religion rests on an instinctive basis. Different from creeds, which are codified and dogmatized versions of a religious experience. Creeds usually say they have THE truth and are a collective belief. For Jung, no contradiction existed between faith and knowledge because science has nothing to say about metaphysical events, and beliefs are psychological facts that need no proof. Increasing exogamous libidinal tendencies over the centuries have caused endogamous libido to react by forming religions, sects, and nations (see cross-cousin marriage, aion). Religions collect projections of parent imagos (Pope, church as mother, etc.) in a positive way--let the imagos live on in a changed and exalted form within traditions that preserve living connections and roots for centuries. Instinct expresses itself in traditional form, and when the traditions break down or the images are lost, the energy activates the unconscious dangerously. Isms and the State then replace tradition and hierarchical order. From a more generalist site: (generic definition of "religion"): A means of getting in touch with and of attaining at-onement with "ultimate reality." In slightly different words, a religion is a system of symbols (e.g., words and gestures, stories and practices, objects and places) that functions religiously, namely, an ongoing system of symbols that participants use to draw near to, and come into right or appropriate relationship with, what they deem to be ultimate reality. Many more definitions here "Spirituality" (the most generic definition I could find, not co-opted by a religious organization): (a) relating to spirit or sacred matters; (b) being connected to the essence of self, others and life; (c) an experience of coming home to self and connecting to others |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:19 AM I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis of Jehovah's witnesses, GUEST. :-) Two of them insist on visiting my elderly mother frequently, and they have as much chance of converting her as they do of turning the moon into a frisbee, but she's nice enough to keep chatting with them anyway. Her religion is political analysis. She watches CNN about 6 hours a day. (shudder!) Well, Wolfgang, perhaps it doesn't really have anything to do with you...I'll check later when I have more time, and see if I can figure it out. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Betsy Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:15 AM Just to try to lighten up this heavy Subject, which I started, I offer this :- someone once who wrote "It is better to live your life believing in God , then die, and find that there isn't , than live your life believing there isn't a God , then die, and find there IS. Apologies I can't remember whose quotation it is, but the former has always been my Credo. Much joy to all you who quietly enjoy your religion , but my question was much more prompted by the behaviour of Zealots and people who are constantly claiming to have God on their side or God belonging to their Nation etc. I find them very worrying . In addition , I simply cannot understand all the pomp/ceremony and dressing-up which goes on - and it is bizarre for me to think that these same people can claim to be nearer to God than you or I . Amazing !!! I am of the same type of religious background as Joe Offer - unfortunately I am a lapsed member - however, after a few beers and a night out - I shall bid you farewell as you go off into the night with " Good night-God Bless ", which is my best way to round off an evening. If you ever use this phrase ( try it ) and you are asked why you said " God Bless " ( by someone imagining that you are being a bit over-religious ) just simply reply "'Cos that's his Job". O.K.,O.K., I can hear some PC people as I write , God might be feminine - but as they say - that's another matter. Or as a famous Irish Comedian Dave Allen used to say at the finish of his show " May YOUR God go with you " a phrase which I've "borrowed" for a new Song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 04 Nov 04 - 08:43 AM The best man won... oh, sorry, wrong thread! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Nov 04 - 08:41 AM Little Hawk, even reading your post twice hasn't helped me to understand on what statement in my posts you answer here? Nice reading, you have made your position clearer, but what has that to do with me? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST Date: 04 Nov 04 - 05:45 AM For the last couple of years I have had an elder ( I think that's what they call themselves ) of the Watchtower bible and tract society ( Jehovah's Witnesses ).This close at hand experience has led me to believe that people like this are seriously self delusional, status and materially obsessed ( take out the position held in thier movement and they are nothing socially or even jobwise since they, at least where I am, seem to work for each other etc.), and are dangerous to those in society who are remotely vulnerable to the intense circularly reasoned garbage that they sell. It has been fascinating to see at close hand the outward arrogance of these people, which is merely a thin veneer over thier desperate fear of being found out just to be like everyone else. I have had a few good laughs at this guy desperately mowing lawns and tidying up the whole road ( in rain, hail, snow and even in the dark ) just ahead of more of the ridiculously overdressed clones arriving for some meeting or another. This kind of behaviour ( and alot of other very wierd and sometimes very unneighbourly stuff ) starts to look an awful lot like mental illness or at least some kind of disfunctional compulsive disorder. As people they have proved to be some of the most unpleasant self obsessed neighbours one could wish to have. I see people arriving for these mideweek house meetings, usually mothers with thier children in tow of young families, always dressed in Sunday best, including the little kids. They always look almost afraid as they get out of thier cars, and will always sit in their cars right up to the last minute if they arrive early. Knowing what I know about thes people, having to live closely to them, it sickens me to see them getting away with such ugly physcological manipulation of others. It is a sadness that this type of extreme, often under eduated, self serving rubbish, goes to tarnish those who have a faith, choose to live by it and in doing so actually try to understand, respect and do something useful for the reast of this planet, lets' face it, we need all the encouragement we can get. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:16 AM In Taiwan today, a guy jumped into the Lion Pit, yelling "God Will Save You!" Must have, cause the lions had just been fed - if he had not chased them around scaring them, they probably would not have bitten him at all.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:47 PM You're absolutely right about that, Dianavan. I've seen personal cases of it. There is no simple solution to such heartbreak and trauma. The faith of such a child in themselves and in other people has to be restored a bit at a time. One must help them to understand that: 1. They weren't to blame in any way for what happened. 2. The person who did it to them was absolutely wrong to do that. 3. Other people still love them, and they is nothing wrong with them because they ARE lovable just as they are. Wolfgang - Really, I can't take you seriously when this sort of thing is being discussed. Why should I even bother talking to you about it? But what the heck, I will anyway...because someone else might be interested... So consider this: A God that intervenes in human affairs must, by definition, be separate to what he is intervening in, mustn't he/she? The God (She/He/It) that I propose as existing is NOT separate from anyone or anything...because all things are part OF He/She/It. Imagine all of reality as a single piece of cloth. The cloth is woven out of trillions of fibers. It is colored in trillions of unique patterns. It is of infinite size (beyond definition or measurement). It is self-governing, eternal, and sentient...which is to say, it has self-awareness. Let's say that every single fibre in that cloth shares in part of the whole collective awareness, but its particular part thinks of itself only in isolation...thinking in effect, "I am alone and separate from all others and all that is around me." That is the mental circumstance of the ordinary person or animal or other sentient embodied being. Suppose that the overall sentient whole that is God/Life/Existence/Manifestation endows each sentient part of itself with autonomy (complete free will to act and think within the limitations of what that embodied part can actually do within its tiny physical circumstances). That is an approximate description of what I am alluding to. I assert that God in no way intervenes with the free will of any such fiber in the entirety, anymore than you, Wolfgang, intervene in the free will of the individual intelligent cells in your body which are very helpfully processing food and oxygen for you at this moment. (And if their free will goes badly awry, then you can get sick in some part of the body.) You influence them, by your larger decision-making process and your general emtional condition, but they are still autonomous. The overall consciousness that is God also definitely influences people...toward positivity, creativity, courage, and so on...but each person still makes their own decision and can reject or oppose that influence if they choose to, because they have free will. Now, suppose that one of the fibers actually calms its mind down enough to become aware of God and of its commonality with all the other fibers. Suppose that when it looks at another fiber, it sees that they are one in spirit. If so, it will love the other fiber in an unprejudiced way. In looking at another it will see its own beloved Self and behave accordingly, with only love. That is precisely what distinguishes any truly enlightened being from someone in an ordinary state of mind. He looks at another person and see himself...because he sees the One, the Great Self which is simultaneously expressing as...ALL of us...as...Everything. Such people exist. I know they do. They are very rare, but they exist. And what do they do? They help the rest of humanity ceaselessly, with tremendous courage, and with absolute selflessness as long as they are in a body to do it. If you can't believe that, it just shows me you have either never met such a person, or never even been willing to consider the possibility of one existing. If so, you have deprived yourself of something wonderful. We all are One. We are parts of what some people call "God" (which is just a word people made up for it...). You could just as well call it "Life" or "Being" or "Love" or "Truth", because it is all those things, and it goes completely beyond organized religions and NEEDS no organized religions. In fact, it might be much better off without them. You can experience it. You can BE it. Some people have. When you do that, you love yourself, you love others, and you love Life, without qualification or demand or expectation of any sort. You become harmless. You heal. You bless. You give. You create. And you no longer fear anything, not even death, because you know that there is no death. The God people seek lives inside their own heart, and inside everyone else's, simply waiting to be recognized. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: dianavan Date: 03 Nov 04 - 10:56 AM Little Hawk - What you fail to understand is that a small child is so damaged by abuse that it is very difficult for that child to find God. To know God, you must have an open heart. Some little kids never have that opportunity. Where is God in their consciousness? Their trust has been destroyed. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Kim C Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:48 AM Let's see... I consider myself religious, although not in the "traditional" sense. Although I was raised a Christian, and identify most closely with that, I also find truth and wisdom in Buddhist and Hindu beliefs - many of which are not so different from what Christians believe. Instead of allying myself with a particular church, I worship on my own time and at my own pace, not when anyone tells me I should. I wear makeup and I fix my hair. I like fashion, at least what I can afford. My husband thinks I'm cute. I also have a mental illness. I have fought depression nearly all my life, and continue to do so. I do think my spiritual grounding has given me a much better handle on my condition. But I don't see that any of those things are necessarily related. I do think that fanatical religious groups prey on people who are weak of heart, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with mental illness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Wolfgang Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:55 AM Free will is a very risky business, but it's better than being a mind-controlled robot or a slave The dichotomy is nonsense. A theist's god interfering with his creation even today does not make anyone a robot. Everybody would have free will and only in cases of extreme abuse might interfere which for most people qwould be never during their lives. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:50 AM Of course the abused child would not understand it, Dianavan. Virtually nobody understands horrible things like child abuse when it's happening to them OR to somebody else. But people do understand free will, and they have it. God is not going to suddenly pop out of the sky and take their free will away from certain people just because they are doing awful things. God is not separated from the process. God would have to BE separated from the process in order to step in and intervene. Whether an abused child understands that or not is hardly relevant to the matter. A God-force that is present within literally every atom, right down to the neutron and electron level is not separate from anything except the emotional and mental processes of people who refuse to tune into their highest impulse at any given time. How the hell can such a God belong to a privileged elite when it is part and parcel of every living being? You have intelligence, right? How well do you use it? How many beings operate at the full potential of their intelligence? Very few. How many operate at the full potential of their compassion? Less than one in 10,000. How many are completely without fear? Find me such a one if you can. To the extent that a person is utilizing intelligence, compassion, and every other good and useful quality whatsoever that person IS bringing forth the presence of God within him or herself. Is that hard to understand? I don't think so. If you think that the present of evil somehow invalidates the concept of God, consider this: If you didn't have the example of cold to observe, then how would you know what "hot" is? If you didn't have the example of "short" to observe, how would you know what "long" is (no sexual puns intended). If you didn't have the example of "evil" to observe, how would you know what "good" is? You wouldn't, because we draw comparisons between in order to form ALL our concepts about reality in a World of relativity...in which we observe everything as separate from ourselves. (that's a somewhat arbitrary observance, by the way, but it works as long as you believe in it...and no longer than that) If you want a World where "bad things" that you find too horrifying to accept simply don't happen because of some divine intervention, you are whistling in the wind. This World you see and touch is not the whole story anyway...it's less than one fingernail clipping of the whole story. You didn't get my drift at all. I am not suggesting that God is a God of the privileged few, and that is completely contrary to my understanding. God lives within every man, woman, animal, plant, and atom. I am saying that only a very few people completely succeed in bringing forth the highest possibilities they are capable of...and those people certainly do serve to inspire others to further efforts in that direction. Some examples: Gandhi, Joan of Arc, Mother Teresa, the Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, and various others...some of whom are famous, some of whom are not. Less enlightened people then tend to form organized religions in the names of those saints and prophets and they go around doing awful things like burning people at the stake, abusing children, and fighting religious wars with each other. That is not the fault of the enlightened beings who inspired people in the first place, it's the fault of very unaware adherents who got all excited but didn't really get or understand the message they were given...they just followed their own fractured little fears and desires wherever they led them. That's their responsibility, not God's, because they have free will, and must decide for themselves how to use it. Nothing you or I say about the matter will be of much particular comfort to an abused child...or an Iraqi family who just lost their house and their daughter to another useless American bombing run or another suicide bomber. Free will is a very risky business, but it's better than being a mind-controlled robot or a slave, wouldn't you say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Wolfgang Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:41 AM What God would allow such a thing to happen to innocent children? Not only the god Little Hawk has described allows that but also the deist's god. This god once has done an act of creation (creating the universe and the physical laws) many billion years ago and since then does not interfere at all with the creation and for all they might know doesn't even care now. There are lots of different concepts of god(s). Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: harpgirl Date: 03 Nov 04 - 08:04 AM Oh, and Mick, I am so sorry to hear about your experience with the Boy Scouts. I think it takes a great deal of courage to admit to such an experience in a public forum. And it makes me angry to hear it. I hope someone did something to punish those involved but I fear not, knowing the organization. For the record,I am against Boy Scouts because it doesn't sufficiently protect young children from predators. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,harpgirl Date: 03 Nov 04 - 07:56 AM SRS, while I do agree that Jacqui Schiff sullied the conceptual model of TA, "Betsy" is playing this game. She sets up an argument, then decamps while watching us fight among ourselves. Simple concept to understand, my dear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Nov 04 - 05:49 AM Read a rather old book, but still highly relevant - "Battle for the Mind" by Sargent. A son of a Minister. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: dianavan Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:03 AM Little Hawk - I don't think an abused child would be able to understand your God of free will. I would venture to say that your God is a God of a privileged few. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Rustic Rebel Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:31 AM I believe everyone has their own religion, as Mick said, religion is a belief system, and we all have a belief system no matter if it's a god you praise each morning or a corn flake, if you praise nothing but believe your just lucky to be alive this morning, it's still your religion. So is religion a form of mental illness? I can't answer that, but, if it is, we're all nuts. I have a little motto, "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:00 AM Mr Don Firth, you got no shame. :) clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:56 PM A God who allows free will, Dianavan, allows anything. That is the definition of free will. You either have it or you don't. It is not something that's only given out in part, and then only to people who meet certain criteria. God is an indwelling presence and being and intelligence and life that is living at the heart of every human being like an eternal flame. You can draw on that highest presence which is within you...or not...as you freely choose according to the light of your own awareness. If you love, you will draw on it and be strenthened immeasurably by it. If you fear and hate and indulge in that sort of negative emotion you will cut yourself off from it, to the extent that you do fear. You will not even know it's there. Would someone who truly loved abuse a child? No. It's not up to some external God who is out there and must be petitioned to stop these things, it's a matter of whether or not people let the presence of God within themselves breathe and move through them and express itself or not. It's totally up to them, because they are totally and absolutely free beings at all times and under their own jurisdiction, nobody else's. Total freedom is a big responsibility, and all do not use it wisely. In fact, those who always use it wisely are so rare that I would bet they are less than one in 10,000. Nevertheless, most of us manage reasonably well, and are reasonably good and harmless in our nature most of the time. And that speaks rather well for humanity, I think. My remarks are not made on behalf of any particular religion. Spirit needs no particular religion, because it's non-denominational by its very nature. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: dianavan Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:32 PM Thanks for refreshing my memory, SRS. I worked for awhile with children who were a danger to themselves or to others. Most had been traumatized early in life. They certainly were not religious! How can you believe when you have been severely abused and traumatized as a child? What God would allow such a thing to happen to innocent children? I think mental illness and those that suffer from dogmatic beliefs are entirely separate. If a mentally ill person finds religion comforting - fine. Lets face it, there are too many religions and too many varieties of mental illness to lump them altogether. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Don Firth Date: 02 Nov 04 - 10:22 PM Clint, he lives in Chicago, which is right on the shores of Lake Meshugana. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:40 AM There are a lot of tangled ideas in this thread. Let's You and Him Fight (LYAHF): A Sexual Game . . . . Reproduced with permission from Games People Play by Dr. Eric Berne. I don't know what in heck this had to do with the conversation. And I am appalled that his editors didn't catch all of those horrible errors with pronouns. Ugg. That description of a game, an offshoot of the 1960s fad "I'm OK, You're OK" of pop psychology, should be set aside and forgotten. Sorry, Harpgirl, but that's the way I see that one, anyway. Thanks, Little Hawk, so many posts later, for acknowledging that you were reading some of these remarks. The hubris of pronouncing religion "mental illness" is too much for even this more-or-less-atheist to take. I was serious about the Foucault--it's hard work getting through from beginning to end, but he does a marvelous job of examining what society was thinking when it began pronouncing non-conformists "mentally ill." "Hospitals" as institutions didn't used to be places of healing like they are (supposed to be) today. They were institutions where the insane were stashed away. There are people who are a danger to themselves and others, and how they got that way can be quite a story. There are many genetic, chemical, accidental, and social reasons. Religious abuse may be part of it. Amos remarked I think you will agree that those who are mentally ill often use religious language or religious groups to hide behind, as well as sometimes getting into other things to cover up their problems and seek to survive. This is important, but one must recognize that "mentally ill" doesn't translate to "mentally deficient." Picking up code words is one survival mechanism that may work well for some individuals who are mentally ill. Others parrot it if they have been part of a captive audience of religious orders that mean well (we hope), but the outcome beyond speaking the empty words may be negligible. Learn the code words and 1) people feed you, clothe you, give you a place to sleep or 2) leave you alone because they don't want to tangle with what is apparently a pretty gnarly belief system you're operating under. I'll give you a key to behavior that is part of a good psychology 101 class--if you continually treat people as if you expect them to act in a certain way, after a while this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and they will begin to act that way. Especially if they are constrained in an institution or strict social situation. Those who are healthy enough to rebel may well break free. But others, subject to draconian rules or others who anticipate certain problems will find that when they behave the way they are expected, they actually get a form of approval. It's one of those bizarre aspects of flawed social science. Form the wrong shotr-sighted hypothesis and wait for the subject to finally do what you expect (meanwhile ignoring all of the rest of the behavior and a plethora of clues as to how this individual really ticks). This doesn't mean there are no truly mentally ill people in the world. I've come across many in my work over the years (municipal recreation programs typically have special programs for emotionally disturbed and mentally SRS (who is amused that that very good definition of "hubris" comes from a christian liberal arts college in Tennessee. That site looks like an excellent reference source.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Peace Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:50 PM Standin' in a church don't make you religious any more than standin' in a garage makes ya a mechanic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:49 PM A whole lot of true believers are going to troop out tomorrow and vote for either Bush or Kerry. :-) Now, THAT's what I call blind faith! Politics is a much bigger and more ridiculous religion than that of any identifiable church in present-day North America, and it's based on false gods and extremely unrealistic hopes and expectations. Then there's consumerism! Totally leaves organized religion in the dust these days. And yet...it promises happiness to its faithful adherents, but doesn't deliver. You can measure the power of a religion by how many people believe in it, how many practice it, and how much money it has at its command. In this respect politics and consumerism and militarism are way ahead of "the church" and have far more people enslaved, so if you want to worry about religion, look beyond the end of your nose and someone else's hymn book at the much larger picture. Where you put your trust and your money....there is your real religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:33 PM Meshugganah, Martin, meshugganah. or meshugge, meshugga, meshuggeneh, meshuggener, meshuga or meshugana. But never ever meshugonah. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Amos Date: 01 Nov 04 - 11:32 PM Hear hear. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Rapparee Date: 01 Nov 04 - 10:31 PM May I suggest Eric Hoffer's The True Believer? It's old, but I think that its insights are still valuable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Peace Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:45 PM You got that right, Fuzz. About me. Bobert's just crazy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Fuzzy Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:41 PM Excuse me. I meant to say it is Brucie that is a form of mental illness. Fuzz |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: GUEST,Fuzzy Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:38 PM Bobert is a form of mental illness. Fuzz |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: harpgirl Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:52 PM Betsy reminds me of this sexual game played by hysterics: Let's You and Him Fight (LYAHF): A Sexual Game From Games People Play by Dr. Eric Berne This may be a maneuver, a ritual or a game. In each case the psychology is essentially feminine. Because of its dramatic qualities, LYAHF is the basis of much of the world's literature, both good and bad. 1. As a maneuver it is romantic. The woman maneuver or challenges two men into fighting, with the implication or promise that she will surrender herself to the winner. After the competition is decided, she fulfils her bargain. This is an honest transaction, and the presumption is that her and her mate live happily ever after. 2. As a ritual, it tends to be tragic. Custom demands that the two men fight for her, even if she does not want them to, and even if she has already made her choice. If the wrong man wins, she must nevertheless take him. In this case it is society and not the woman who sets up LYAHF. If she is unwilling, the transaction is an honest one. If she is unwilling or disappointed, the outcome may offer her considerable scope for playing games, such as 'Let's Pull A Fast one on Joey'. 3. As a game it is comic. The woman sets up the competition, and while the two men are fighting, she decamps with a third. The internal and external psychological advantages for her and her mate are derived from the position that honest competition is for suckers, and the comic story they have lived through forms the basis for the internal and external social advantages. Reproduced with permission from Games People Play by Dr. Eric Berne. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: dianavan Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:15 PM Ake - You are right about religion being a type of business. As to madness - I wish I could find out how much money different denominations invest in the business of war, weapons in particular. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: akenaton Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM There is an American based church operating near where I live in Scotland. They are quite closely integrated with local Baptists They believe strongly in the old fashioned views of heaven and hell, and to most people these views are a form of madness, being completely irrational. If that was the end of the story, we could just leave them in their nether world,but unfortunatly they go around collecting vulnarable people as "converts"...Depressives, schitsophrenics and other damaged people. these converts are sooncompletely under the control of the church leaders,and are quickly relieved of any money they may have. Iv been employed by the Church to carry out repairs and have been payed out of three separate offshore bank accounts. I no longer carry out work for this church. I would say that Religious views are madness, but Religion is a type of business...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Ron Davies Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:59 PM No. Also, it would not be amiss for Mudcatters, who profess unlimited toleration,---- (or is it "Some people do not like their fellow man and I hate people like that"--remember that one?)------to show a bit of toleration on religion, even if burned by earlier contact with it. Attitudes like this question supposes, and many of the responses to it, are what will bring out the "true believers" in droves on Bush's side on Tuesday, and also serve to confirm their prejudice that folkies ( and non-Bushites in general) are a bunch of fuzzy-headed leftists (read "Godless Communists". It ain't helpful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:58 PM The answer is 'Yes - same as Politics' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Peg Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM The question seems to be a faulty one, because mental illness is a condition that manifests in individuals, whereas religion is a concept that can be discussed, held, believed and followed by vast groups of people.... I think I agree that there seems to be an agenda here to get religiosos to duke it out. *yawn* Go your way and sin no more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Big Mick Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:27 PM Peter/Fionn, I am not sure what the problem seems to be, but that is OK. I stand by my contention that this thread was started with an agenda. I also think you contention that philosophers have been exercised for years by THIS question to be without merit. If you could give me some cites, I would be happy to retract that statement. Amos, I understood where you were coming from. I am not at all bothered nor am I misunderstanding. My response comes from the fact that I believe that debating an issue on a phony premise is a worthless idea. I understand that we may disagree on that but it is my feeling. BTW, your last statement, Organizing the inherent spiritual religiousness of the human being is risky, and if badly manbaged can drive people toward madness. is right on the mark. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 01 Nov 04 - 06:18 PM LOL Brucie! Big Mick may find the question phoney, but it is one that has been excercising philosphers for many years. Leej's post explains why it should not just be laughed away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Once Famous Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:47 PM I think you have gone meshugonah without a doubt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Don Firth Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:44 PM At the risk of repeating myself, once again I recommend reading The Closing of the Western Mind: The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason by Charles Freeman; Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2003 (Freeman is British, and there is a British edition also, but I don't know the publisher). Freeman outlines the beginnings and the development of Greek philosophy, the schism between Aristotle and Plato (one road leads to scientific thinking, the other to mysticism), the birth of Jesus, the early development of Christianity, the fragmentation of early Christian belief, the development of "one true Church" under the aegis (and imperial power) of the emperor Constantine, and the adoption of neo-Platonism as a way of philosophically justifying Christian doctrine. The abandonment of—indeed, the hostility toward—observation and reason in favor of asceticism, prayer, and "divine revelation" was what led to that period we now refer to as the Dark Ages. This period of intellectual and philosophical stagnation ended with the rediscovery of the writings of Aristotle, one of a number of intellectual factors that sparked the Renaissance. The struggles and disputes between people such as Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine and others as each claimed to have a direct pipeline to The Truth makes a fascinating story (it's obvious that a lot of these folks could have used a good "shrink") and goes a long way to explaining the modern Christian church in its "infinity variety." Suffice it to say the Jesus got lost way, way early. This is not an anti-religious book. But it does illustrate what can happen when we forget that God gave us brains with the intention that we use them. Failure to do that, at least in my theology, qualifies as sin. I would recommend the book to "heathen" and Christian alike. It gives a pretty good idea of where it all went wrong, and why. It's a bit of a tome, but it reads almost like a novel. It's one helluva good read! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:41 PM Actually, a very interesting question. In the mid-80s, two brothers who were fundamentalist Mormons butchered the wife and two year old child of their third brother, because they received direct instruction from God to do so. Dialoging with God on an active and ongoing basis is a fundamental tenet of Mormonism. If God instructs you to tear down your garage and build a Temple to Him, you are duty-bound to do His will. God had running instructional dialogues with Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many others right up to the current leader of the Mormon Church. Blood atonement, the notion that certain sins can only be atoned for by the shedding of the sinner's blood, is also fundamental to Mormonism. Thus, if God's voice comes to you and tells you your brother's wife is a sinner and she needs to die for it, can you plead an insanity defense? Belief in the unseen and the irrational is part and parcel of most faiths. Is it insane only at the extremities of its practice? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is Religion a form of Mental Illness ??? From: dianavan Date: 01 Nov 04 - 05:31 PM I think people who watch t.v. religiously are mentally ill. d |
