Will folk clubs survive

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 20 - 05:01 PM

NO, Virtual sessions are virtual they are not real, they do not include socialising, they are also arranged, and thats bollocks about reaching a wider geographical area,people arrive at our local session if they are on holiday, and anyway the session can be recorded and put on the internet, so that it is accesible to people in timbuctoo or madagascar

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 May 20 - 05:37 AM

On 'another' tangent - as we will need to wait at least until July before we return to any sense of normality, will virtual folk sessions continue in parallel to live venues, or should they? One thing in favour of virtual sessions is they can have a much wider geographic reach.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:18 AM

Distant Drums

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:35 AM

"Remote bodhran conferencing? "
The remoter the better
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:37 AM

Remote bodhran conferencing? THe apocalypse has surely arrived.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 06:50 AM

A lot of remote instrumental teaching going on right now - every instrument and genre imaginable. But nobody seems to be teaching anything vocal. Have I just not noticed?

You'd think something like the Glasgow Ballad Workshop would Zoom-ify quite well.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 06:29 AM

" I ought to make a similar list of all those that have been collected in England."
It really wouldn't be a bad idea Steve
I have gained the impression that they survided later in Ireland - there are far more of them here than I believed there were
I'm now looking for singers for six Robin Hood Ballads and an impressive version of The Broom of Codenknowes (from Waterford)
The Two Magicians (similar to Bert's) and sever 'Broomfild Hills
You can't throw a stone without hitting Lamkin, The Demon Lover, Hind Horn or Lord Bateman
A bit mind boggling really

If you do or anyone does, look in collections like 'Helen Hartness Flanders, Edith Fowke and Creighton - some excellent English and Irish survivals in all of these

I've just had a lovely young lady from Cork sing a full version of 'Famous Flower of Serving Men' (from Clare - circa 1920) for me
All very interesting !!!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 06:06 AM

Excellent work, Jim! Let's hope you get some of them to sing them for you. Sounds like a project we English should be promoting. There are enough English Child Ballads out there. Come to think of it I ought to make a similar list of all those that have been collected in England.

Will give it a go after I've finished the spreadsheet on the earliest extant folksong versions. Please remind me if I forget.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 02:44 AM

Hopefully more than that if folk song is to have a future beyod the bookshelf and the archive vault Dick
I recently called for volunteers to sing Irish Child ballads for me and have been heartened to find how many relatively unknown young singers there are interested more in the songs than in being singers - - a 'first cuckoo' hopefully
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 02:38 AM

yes at least two will

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 20 - 03:04 AM

well there are some chorus or joininng in songs that are story songs my son david or the two sisters orthe bnony banks of fordie

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 20 - 02:19 AM

"Again, Jim, with your dislike of the Watersons you appear to be way out of step with the majority, "
My like or dislike is immaterial, as is anybody else's, I analysed what they did with the song for you, ou have chosen not to comment, your failure to do so is not uncommon here
Or song traditions are based around the principles of storyelling; ou singers sang as they spoke, made sense of the narrative and made the story they were telling so they could be followed as such - that' why the singers visualised their songs as vividly as they did
Chorus singing is based on sound and musicality

If I worried about what others liked I'd go off to be sheared regularly or maybe voted to leave Europe - It would be as boring a world as I find 'Frost and Fire' if we all liked the same, wouldn't it ?
Why is what other like always so important to you Steve, do others have to think for you - that was what the 'Mrs Bucket' character was based on?
I put up my opinions in the hope of a debate - I find it more and more difficult to get one nowadays
Jim

I always understood that there was always a question around what choruses and refrains were for - there used to be anyway
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 03:06 PM

Listened in to a Zoom singaround for 2 hours just now. Some singers were clear, others a bit iffy. Depends on the equipment I suppose. More of a social thing for me, but they all enjoyed it, and it was nice to see some familiar faces.

As regards the group singing and playing, we still have a single lead singer with the rest joining in on the chorus. Always thought that's what the choruses were there for. Watersons generally follow the same. Again, Jim, with your dislike of the Watersons you appear to be way out of step with the majority, but wasn't that ever the case?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,lbig al whittle
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM

like I say, Wessex FC at THe Sailors Return in Weymouth are doing it this Wednesday. I expect if you go the club Facebook page there might be information.

Apparently the technology was a bit of a bugger last week, but they think they've got it sorted for this week.

I joined my ukulele class by Zoom last week. That was pretty good.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 09:47 AM

'Group singing is largely experimental.' I prefer the description 'enjoyable'.

Doing it by Zoom is an experiment, though - the fact that most of the singing people in the UK have done in the last 500 years has been in groups doesn't help you synchronize with a leader over an Internet link. I know people are trying it, anybody here involved in that?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 08:40 AM

Where ?
I can only see this posting unless you've reverted back to Karen
I always read what everybody says - it really doesn't help suggesting that people don't - - this has been pretty insult-free until now - let's try and keep it like that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

since every festival appears to be cancelled up uintil the end of august if we do manage to get out of lockdown before then, well folk clubs might temporarily do ok for a while ,bearing in mind that folk clubs are smaller gatherings of 20 to 25 people average, lots of ifs but we must wait and see.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:42 AM

"Strangely perhaps, some of us are still capable of listening to the narrative, "
We are all capable strageley enoutgh - some of us prefer not to be distracted
Group singing tends largely to me musical rather than narrative - interpretation tends to go out of the window - inevitably; singers who interpret do so on their own behalf rather that for a couple of mates as well
Phrasing inevitably goes to pot - a note per syllable tends to be the order of the day - 'four-square singing' we used to call it
Go listen to The Watersons, come back and tell me that doesn't happen
I remember my reaction when 'Frost and Fire first appeared - I was bowled over.... for the first three tracks then it became boring-boring-boring
I never got around to side two or ages and then, because I felt I should

Live recordings are good to learn from but they can never be a subject for either the real thing or a chance to learn by talking to people at a club
I ton't want our songs to be a matter of staring at a small screen or becoming no more than a bum on a seat - there is not even a future in that, never mind it being proposed as a future in itself
Excuses seem to be a speciality of yours Steve
One of my favourite science fiction stories, by Ray Bradbury - describes people having to queue up to see 'The Last Tree'
If we're not careful, that's going to be the case with us
Now people have moved on from "Our clubs are all doin' fine" to "We don't need 'em" perhaps it's time for our next "Step for mankind" - perhaps Frankie Armstrong will have as much success as her namesake Neil ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:17 AM

'Are you seriously suggesting solo singing is not ?' Please read what I have written without putting any spin on it.

Strangely perhaps, some of us are still capable of listening to the narrative, appreciating the arrangement and enjoying the performance, all at the same time. Aren't we clever?

To put a finer point on it, if you are watching and listening to a live performance, it all depends whether the song is new to you, or you have heard it a thousand times and know the story backwards. If you are listening to a recording of your own you can play it back countless times to appreciate the narrative, arrangement, musicality etc.

Nothing thrown away, more and more available online, and being used more and more in live performance. Much more material, recordings, out there than ever there was, indeed far more than any individual could deal with in a long and healthy lifetime.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 03:48 AM

"I prefer the description 'enjoyable'."
No accounting for taste - I prefer being able to concentrate on the words and listen to an interpretation other than musicalAre you seriously suggesting solo singing is not ?
My point was that our singing tradition - is word based, largely narrative
There's nothing wrong with doing what you wish with it - on the cotrarty - 'Butterworth's 'Banks of Green Willow' is one of the most exquisite pieces of music I never tire of - but i ain't folk and that isn't as that tragic ballad was intended to work

The good thing with now having a foundation for traditional music here is that, no matter how far afield you stray, you always have somewhere to return to to check you haven't forgotten something
That is what England seems to have lost (or thrown away)
Maybe folk should have been fitted with a sensor - like some keys are nowadays - you don't have to wander around shouting "where's my ***** keys" when you've got one of them
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 03:22 AM

important factors are suitable venue, good promotion, good resident singers, if i have said this before it is because it needs to be said

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 05:37 PM

SEAN O SHEA it is not love that is blind, but jealousy.   

Lawrence Durrell


Sean.
I suggest go to spec savers and get your eyes tested or learn to count.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 04:42 PM

'Group singing is largely experimental.' I prefer the description 'enjoyable'.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 01:11 PM

" I presume it was the extra "n" that was dropped?"
I would have been obvious enough to be unworthy of comment
Wot -no :-) ?
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 01:00 PM

Not really, as far as sining is concerned

I would love to find this folk sinning club. I presume it was the extra "n" that was dropped?

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 12:47 PM

Steve G, Not sure if I am addressing your point but I wouldn't say that everyone who wants to sing folk songs need to do so in the style and manner of source singers, but we do have a responsibility to refer back to sources.

As another aside(ish)....

In my days with the Shanty Crew we spent a considerable amount of time in rehearsals making sure that what members proposed to bring to the group repertoire had some semblance to written sources as opposed to revival recordings. In doing so, what we brought to performance may have been less pretty, but understanding how the shanty worked brought its own life to them.

At maritime festivals when we listened to other performers we could often tell who they got their versions form, and pin it down to which track on which record.

Learning from records, in my view, often simplifies the detachment from collected sources. Back in the 80s I was equally guilty, and lately I've pruned a vast chunks from my repertoire.

Not sure if that has anything whatsoever to do with my original question though.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 11:55 AM

I'm quite looking forward to the Weymouth Sailors Return Folk Club, on Zoom, next Wednesday. A new experience for me.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 10:15 AM

I think all of us have seen clubs come and go over the years/decades. What are the commonalities of successful clubs? What are the commonalities of those that folded? Inevitably (I think) it comes down to bums on seats. If one were to open a jazz club in a place where jazz is appreciated by 1 in a 1000 people, and if the town only has 5000 people, chances are things won't work out. Christaller's 'Central Place Theory' is somewhat dated, but it's also still true. There is a limit to how far people will travel to hear singers/musicians or groups. These days, people really need to do feasibility studies to determine the potential viability of their respective businesses, whatever those businesses may be. It is also important to gauge both what the audience--read customer--likes and what it doesn't, and that should be an ongoing process. The customer may not always be right, but the customer does pay the bills, and regardless what one wants, first and last the bills have to be paid. I have seen clubs that have continued success because they cater to specific types of music. If you as a customer have continued going to a club on a regular basis because you know the club will be presenting the kind of music you enjoy, then the easiest way to screw that up for the customer is to start presenting a different kind of music. Doesn't matter how good the new music being presented is. As a customer, if I have been going because the performers sing unaccompanied, and I then get three weeks of electric rock, chances are I won't be back. The converse holds true also. The old adage that "I may not know what's good, but I do know what I like" is important for club owners to realize. It is a truth whether one likes it or not.

A problem that does occur--I gather more in the UK--is ownership of the facility in which the music is held. As a pub/bar owner, my main interest would be selling beer, food, etc. The music aspect would be relegated to nights that were slow. However, when I saw a chance to earn more income by turning that night into a karaoke evening, well, do the math, because as an owner that's what I'd have done. When the arts meet the banks, the arts seldom win.

That said, I think the way forward is not necessarily a gloomy one. COVID-19 has changed much in society (as Jack alluded to), but in chaos is opportunity, and as we see the interrelationships of tradition(s), art/music, economics and livelihood, we can perhaps solidify our strengths and shore-up our weaknesses. I think it was Socrates who said that he unexamined life is not worth living, Maybe he was right.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 10:04 AM

"Well if you mean they were written by one person, "
You should know by now I don't - nobody knows who or how many made the songs
That are largely structured as 'one person' narratives and have remained largely the domain of the solo voice apart from choruses
Group singing is largely experimental
Folk songs ceased to be made in 'the modern world' apart from isolated communities, like the Travellers who still maintained an oral tradition, and they were still solo songs
Even the revival song-makers using the tradition as inspiration, recognised that when they composed their songs
That the songs weer written in 'the third person' (not sure about "the majority" is immaterial - a song-maker usually expressed from community experience in order for his/her songs to be of interest to those around him - they are far from beimng 'impersonal'
The broadsides weer a different kettle of dingbats
Navel-gazing introspection of personal angst is very much a revival thing - expressed rather harshly once by Tom Munnelly who told a modern singer of his own songs "I sometimes want to tap you on the shoulder to ask you fer permission to come in"
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 09:54 AM

A bit of a tangent, what can we do to get emerging talented singers and musicians to use this hiatus to get to know our rich folk tradition, look and learn from source material and recordings, and the best revival ambassadors living and passed on and spend time developing their craft to be the next vanguard.

People like Tobar an Dualchais and ITMA have already put a tremendous amount of material online and it's already being used heavily by younger performers - they don't need lessons in how to apply it. About all there is for older generations to do is upload what they've got.

Right now there is NO shortage of people offering on-line teaching in anything you could want - this is the obvious recourse for pros whose diaries have suddenly gone blank. But the notion of "best revival ambassadors" can go - performers starting out can bypass them and go back to their sources if they want. The best teachers and the best performers have always been largely separate groups of people in the art music world and there's no reason why folk should be any different in the present situation.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 09:52 AM

Don't tempt Jim, Steve ;-)

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 09:46 AM

'Our songs were expressions of individuality - how an individual reacted to the world around him/her'

Well if you mean they were written by one person, nobody can deny that except people like Gummere who are long-gone.

Many things are different in the modern world to what they were before WWII. You seriously believe we should only be performing in the same way as those people who helped preserve the songs for us? No instruments, no duets, no choirs, no pub sings with wonderful harmony? If not what exactly are you suggesting?

The majority of the songs were written in third person, only a few first person. The majority are impersonal.

Next you will be telling us that people accompanying songs and singing in duets closed our folk clubs down!

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 09:16 AM

"Irrelevant."
Not really, as far as sining is concerned
Our songs were expressions of individuality - how an individual reacted to the world around him/her
Thet is sacrificed when you perform in a group
It may be different if you perform as a family like The Coppers and, of course, rituals and shanties were a always a group activity, but these are very much a small part of our tradition
Carthy was in the position to do both, (Glackin was for a while) but most aren't -nd in both cases, the group side came with a shelf life - solo singing is ageless
How long did 'the singing pullover's' approach last - not long overall ?

Crib sheets became a subject for much argument at one time so it was certainly an issue then - last tie I was in The Cellar at C# Sharp House there were about 4 singers using them
I've noticed them being used on several on-line performances of late - they are unnecessary for most people and therefore largely not acceptable in most cases
Sorry - we disagree again
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 08:47 AM

Irrelevant.
If you are in a group or perform individually there are advantages and disadvantages to both. People like Cohen get the best of both worlds and many on the scene have done this to great advantage over the years. Martin Carthy springs to mind but there are many others. All 3 are options and you choose what works for you. I enjoy performing solo about the same amount as I enjoy being in a group. I don't think this has much bearing on the survival of folk clubs, except perhaps solo artists are cheaper for the organisers.

I would dearly love the crib-sheet merchants to learn their songs, but as they are very much in a minority I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 07:42 AM

To be fair to Dick Sean (just wrote "Sick Dean" - nearly left it in :-) )
I thing if I were in his position I think I'd find myself under siege as things are

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 07:25 AM

Got it, especially the confusion with popularity.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 07:11 AM

Paddy explined the situation he found himself in at the time -
In those days Irish music was at an ebb and the media only selected those who they believed would sell to a general audience - things are very different now that traditional music has come into its own - they call the shots
Britain was exactly the same during the folk and jazz booms - groups, funny uniforms, singing pullovers, even restrictions on the length of song that could be sung
When flok ceased to sell, the media and music industry walked away - that's when the folk revival and the jazz clubs streamlined themselves and returned to what they wanted to play
Unfortunately there have always been those among us who confuse excellence with popularity and fame
Some people found the experimantal period with groups like Bothy Band and Steeleye attractive - never rang any of my bells
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 06:34 AM

I really don't get that at all. Before I open my gob, could somebody explain Paddy Glackins' point of view.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 06:10 AM

There are many, many professional folk musicians who are not part of a group. Not that there is anything wrong with groups of course

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 06:00 AM

Shortly after we moved to Ireland National TV put on one of e best analyses I can ever remember on professionalism in traditional song - it was entitled "Has folk music sold out ?"
One of Ireland's finest musicians, Paddy Glackin, summed the situation up perfectly
He said, "Once you become professional you cannot survive without becoming a member of a group - you have sacrificed the choice of what and how you play"
I acn accept that
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

Might be a better time for some of out crib sheet merchants to actually learn the songs they sing
I've never thought of our (sometimes far-from) "better" singers as ambassadors I'm afraid - just occasional breaks we relly don't have to rely on
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

A bit of a tangent, what can we do to get emerging talented singers and musicians to use this hiatus to get to know our rich folk tradition, look and learn from source material and recordings, and the best revival ambassadors living and passed on and spend time developing their craft to be the next vanguard.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 03:50 AM

Folk clubs will survive if people support them. When people don't support them then they die slow deaths, or fast ones if the owners see the writing on the wall.

Most clubs would be ecstatic to have slow decline as their worst problem right now.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 02:18 AM

"Folk clubs will survive if people support them."
In a way this sums up the problem for me, I'm afraid, just as does laims that our folk songs will "survive"
I lived through a long period when this would never have to be said because there was no question of them not "surviving" because they were thriving
I came to these arguments in the first place being told that there was nothing wrong with the club scene - I was given lists to be persuaded that was the case - it obviously wasn't if we have to talk about it "surviving"
It needs to do far, far more than that - it needs to be enjoyed at least as much as it once was - not just by listeners but by performers and potential performers
That has to be more tan wished for - it has to be worked for
That should be the topic of any communication that takes place - how is that going to be achieved ?

I'm not enjoying this long period of isolation - is anybody ?
Yet that is what is being proposed as the future of our folk song - over my dead body, I hope
I sneak into towen (I shouldn't) for my newspaper and each time I realise how much I am missing talking to the people whose houses I pass
I could call them, we regularly speak th them this way now because we check up on each other
Is that really how people want our songs and music to "survive" ?
How Orwellian
Jim

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 02:52 PM

Folk clubs will survive if people support them. When people don't support them then they die slow deaths, or fast ones if the owners see the writing on the wall. In one form or other things have to be paid for. When those things aren't, the business goes TU. It's mostly always been that way.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SussexCarole
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 06:50 AM

Swansea Copper Folk will be running again on our (sort of) monthly basis just as soon as it is safe to do so. Maybe we have to wait for a well tested vaccine to keep us all safe.

Traditional song/music session while we sail on the River Tawe with no mics/amps and no featured performer.

Perhaps we have to wait until 2021 or further ahead, but our outlook is positive.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 06:06 AM

Too true, Dick. The organisers of all ages are out there and we need to give them as much encouragement as possible. No negativity!

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 04:55 AM

Until more is known for definite about Coronavirus and an effective vaccine is produced, proven and readily available. I would say that things such as "House Concerts" will be exceptionally rare occurrences.

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM

I too have lost a considerable amount of gigs[ thankyou for your kind thoughts Steve] ,however i now have 3quarters of a uk sate pension 95 sterling a week],so of course i have no worries
But I feel most sorry for younger performers, my advice to them would be as soon as this is over, get out and organise, start a folk event[ A HOUSE PARTY, A CLUB, A ONE DAY FESTIVAL, but not an open mic [as soon as this is over]
the uk folk revival needs to look back to its early days when many performers were involved in organising events clubs.gigs dont just happen, without organisers

Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 02:45 AM

well since folk clubs often are smaller gatherings, social distancing might be easier i think it very possible they will survive ,it may take longer for festivals to return. to quote Stanley Baldwin lets wait and see