BS: One compelling reason for a god?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:28 AM

We all need to believe in something better at some point in our lives, if that means believing in 'a God', which ever one it may be, and it gives you the strength you are looking for, or need, then that is a good enough reason.

If you believe when you die that is the complete end and there is nothing else once you die then live life to the full now as you won't be able to improve on it elsewhere, wherever that may, or may not be.


rc

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:21 AM

Bee-dubya-ell,

When I used to go to synagogue, we would have pastries, bagels, cream cheese, lox, and pickled herring afterwards.

You should consider a change in faith. Just donuts????

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:17 AM

Every time I look in the mirror I see a compelling reasons for a god as in omigod what a miracle!   Or (more often) omigod where did THAT come from ... or omigod go back to bed ...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:15 AM

No, wait! I've got it! The "one compelling reason for a god"! Free donuts! If you believe in God you go to church, and if you go to church you get free donuts after the service!

Okay, so it's not really so compelling, especially if you're on a diet. How about "If you believe in God you will definitely win the lottery!"? Now that's compelling, huh? Too bad it's a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:05 AM

Science can't answer that simple question; God does. Ummm - no, positing god just avoids the question entirely. It cannot answer any empirical question.
Fergie - there is no compelling reason. There are a lot of compelling feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:48 AM

No reason,no answers,no point.Just live your life happily and content in your own little way,but dont shout god help me when things go pear shaped

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:34 AM

Something has to fit into Robert Winston's "God-shaped hole in the centre of the universe".

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:23 AM

If people couldn't use God to justify their hatred greed killing etc, they'd just use something else. Family traditions, big ambitions, weather conditions, politicians, folk musicians .... or whatever's handy.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:11 AM

"do believe in God and He doesn't exist, you won't have lost anything"

So if we say we are killing 'for the Glory of God' then it's ok either way?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:06 AM

Okay Fergie, since you insist on a reason, here's the Cliff's Notes version of the classic logic-based argument for belief:

To paraphrase Blaise Pascal, you should believe in God because if He does exist and you don't believe in Him you'll be in deep shit when you die. But if you do believe in God and He doesn't exist, you won't have lost anything, and you may wind up living a better life than if you didn't believe.

Think of it as a no-cost insurance policy you may never have to use. It won't hurt you to have it, you may never need it, but you might not want to be caught without it.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:02 AM

Dunno bout you, but I do know why I, personally, should or shouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:56 AM

Did you guess that perhaps none of us could give you such an answer with which you will be satisfied?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Fergie
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:37 AM

Hi all
Thanks you all for your contributions. I have read through all 140 posts. Many of them were thought provoking and interesting, yet within them I did not find an answer to my original question.

My question was

Why should I believe there is such a thing as a God?

Fergus

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:51 AM

Peace, I did not take your statement to be confrontive. I simply wished to state my different, and I think, equally valid, response to the same items. I would not like to think that offering my contrasting thoughts is enough to be considered combative.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:26 AM

I don't really care what people believe in relation to God. My statement was not meant to be confrontive. Sorry you took it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:19 AM

Mirror views:

"I look at a flower and see God, the same God I see when a child lives through a horrendous motor vehicle rollover. People who don't know humility in the face of miracles will not see God there." - Peace

I look at a flower and see a beautiful expression of the biological world. I see the child who lived as very fortunate. If I believed in a god, I would hate it for the sake of the child who doesn't live through the accident, and for all the other horribly suffering children in the world for whom no miracle appears. Is this pride, in any other sense than the refusal to believe in a supreme being is considered prideful by those who do so believe?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:14 AM

"But proving God to anyone is an exercise in futility."

As I said . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:10 AM

"the same God I see when a child lives through a horrendous motor vehicle rollover"

the same God that exists in the very occurrence of the horrendous motor vehicle rollover - unless the Devil is Responsible for things like that... but then yo have a Duality of Gods, which conflicts with the claim of a single Omnipotent Deity...

I think I need a Bex, a cup of tea, and a good lie down...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:02 AM

I look at a flower and see God, the same God I see when a child lives through a horrendous motor vehicle rollover. People who don't know humility in the face of miracles will not see God there.

But proving God to anyone is an exercise in futility. Science can explain many things to the smallest detail, but science has never explained the 'why' of the thing, the thing to which Dylan Thomas referred: "The force that through the green fuse drives the flower." Science can't answer that simple question; God does.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:58 AM

"Everything is perfect in the universe"

Yep - perfectly stuffed up!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:37 AM

Contemplation of the existence of God, or infinity, or eternity, or a singularity, or what-came-first, is useful anly as an excersise in mental agility. It will not provide any answers. If God does exist, for reasons apparent only to himself, he has decided not to reveal himself to us. An omnipotent omniscient God is clearly clever enough to keep himself hidden if that's what he wants, so I doubt if you are going to find evidence of his existance. Similarly, if he doesn't exist, neither will you find conclusive evidence of his non-existence. Queer, eh?

You, like everyone else, have to supply your own compelling reason.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 02:13 AM

This being a music forum, I suppose I can say one reason for having a God is the music - I spent three hours of sheer musical pleasure at choir practice this evening. I have friends who really don't believe at all - but they stick around for the music. And there IS something transcendent about the music, something beyond us that binds us together in a remarkable way.

The believers you're likely to find in a place like this, aren't the kind who are likely to push their religion in your face. They may not be as vocal as the fundamentalists, but chances are good that their faith is a lot deeper. Marion gave a good description of what means a lot to a number of us.

Another thing is that believing in a God can help us believe that there's still a chance that some day there will be justice in this world, that there still is hope for the poor and oppressed.

But I suppose the basic reason is that we believe, simply because we DO believe, because we have experienced the presence of God one way or another. Any explanation or defense tends to cheapen that belief. If we live lives of integrity that show others that our beliefs make sense, then maybe others will come to share our beliefs - or not. And if they haven't had that experience, that's OK. God will take care of them somehow.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:44 AM

Yes, the desire for perfection appears to be universal. No question about that.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:23 AM

Everything is perfect in the universe, even your desire to improve it.

Wayne W Dyer

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:16 AM

Or so I'm told... ;^)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:15 AM

Even perfection strives to better itself...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 12:03 AM

Your body is mortal, Thomas. Are you just your body? Is that all you are? If not, perhaps you are not so mortal as you think. Just your body is. I don't think your body is the real you. But I can't really wade through your post, because it gives me a headache looking at all those CAPS and trying to sort out who is saying what...

I think Descartes is a bit out of date and a bit archaic, I think his ideas about God are mired in the Christian tradition, and his line of reasoning does not strike me as particularly helpful, though he does raise some interesting points.

"Perfection" is a mental concept, Thomas. Does it mean that everything must be "the best" as we define "best" or does it mean that everything must be the perfect example of what it is? For instance, what constitutes a perfect Woody Allen? Woody Allen himself, that's what. No one else can get that role exactly right like he can, and that role requires some major apparent flaws in personality traits as well as some great talents and abilities. His "imperfections" are part of what it takes to be perfect as Woody Allen.

I think that the whole Universe is perfect...right now....although it will never seem that way to any particular individual who views his separate role in it through his mortal consciousness. Life here is fraught with what appears to be great imperfection.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:54 PM

There was a band called "The Second Coming" in Jacksonville, Florida in the late '60s. After a couple of personnel changes and a move up I-75 to Macon, Georgia they became The Allman Brothers Band. I believed in them.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:48 PM

I believe in the Second Coming. and if I'm extra lucky, the third...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:44 PM

The bastard? (crosses himself)... Then your conception of God is as something elses illegitimate conception? Oh my! (crosses himself again).

Okay...this should be fun... THEN YOU ARE NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH

Argument 2

I exist. (Do you? YES, AS DO YOU...Are you sure? YES...Maybe your existence is illusory, like a dream.) AND MAYBE TOMORROW WAS YESTERDAY FOR SEVENTEEN ELEPHANT EARS

My existence must have a cause. (Must it? YES...How so? NOTHING COMES FROM NOTHING...If you have always existed, I HAVE NOT ALWAYS EXISTED, I AM A MORTAL...then no cause was required. How do you know you have not always existed? MY BIRTH WAS RECORDED... Are you only your body? NO...If not, then you may have pre-existed the body. I MAY HAVE BEEN ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING BY THIS CONJECTURE, AND NONE OF IT IS ANYTHING BUT SURMIZABLE...Is your body real? YES, AS IS THE PAIN AND WORK RESULTS CREATED BY MY DAILY LABORS)

The cause must be either:
   a) myself (possibly) NOT EVEN REMOTELY LIKELY
   b) my always having existed (as I have suggested already) PATHETIC SELF DELUSION
   c) my parents (yeah, okay) THANKS
   d) something less perfect than God (a thing is either perfect or it isn't...how can you be less perfect?) GRADATIONS OF PERFECTION, THOUGH THEY BE HARD TO QUANTIFY, DO EXIST
   e) God (how do you define "God"?") THE SUPREME CREATOR OF ALL THAT IS... ALL KNOWING, AND ALL BEING... WITH AN EXALTED LEVEL OF PERFECTION THAT TO US SEEMS LIKE A QUANTUM LEAP ABOVE ANY NOTIONS WE MIGHT EVEN PRETEND TO HAVE OF IT

Not a. If I had created myself, I would have made myself perfect. (How could you do that if you were not perfect already? Have you considered that maybe you are perfect, in that you are the one and only perfect version of what you are?) YES, THAT WAS HIS POINT, AND THEREFORE IMPOSSIBLE. I AM PERFECTLY IMPERFECT.

Not b. Continued existence does not follow from present existence. (Why not?) MORTALITY SUCKS...

Not c. This leads to an infinite regress. (Does it?) YES. IF YOU FOLLOW IT LONG ENOUGH, YOU EVENTUALLY END UP AT THE ORIGINAL QUESTION AGAIN.

Not d. The idea of perfection that exists in me cannot have originated from a non-perfect being. (Ha! I am less than a perfect singer or guitar player, but I DO have an idea of perfection when it comes to both of those activities...as does anyone else who is deeply interested in those activities.) ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE ABLE TO DECIDE THESE THINGS FOR OTHERS? IF YOU ARE NOT PERFECT, THEN YOU OBVIOUSLY NEED TO PRACTICE MORE ;^)

      e. God exists. (Again, how do you define "God", Mr Decartes?) SEE PREVIOUS DESCRIPTION

Here's what I say: YES, WE ALL KNOW THAT YOU 'BELIEVE' YOU ARE DESCARTES' EQUAL IN THESE MATTERS Existence itself exists. IT'S NOT A DREAM AFTER ALL? God is identical with existence itself, SIAMESE TWINS? that is to say, God is inclusive of all that is. WE CAN AGREE AT LAST! We debate about because we think we are separate. WE ARE ALL GOD'S CHILDREN That thinking is our dream of separate existence, WE USE DIFFERENT TOOTHBRUSHES... and it is what appears TO LITTLE HAWK to separate us from one another SO THE SIAMESE TWINS CAN LIVE MORE NORMAL LIVES and from God, LIKE NOT BELIEVING IN GOD DOESN'T SEPERATE US FROM GOD? which is existence itself. EXISTENCE OF WHAT...? Nothing that exists CAN separate itself from existence itself, BUT GOD HAS A PLAN YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND, LITTLE HAWK but it can imagine that it has done so. UNTILL THE RAPTURE

Hope this helps...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:38 PM

And maybe it pisses you off a bit too. ;-) After all, when I say that I believe in existence itself, and that God IS existence itself, you can't attack or refute that belief in any way whatsoever, can you? It provides no easy target for you to aim an intellectual broadside at.

Aw, shucks! Too bad. It would be so much easier if I just believed in Jehovah or the Second Coming.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:35 PM

Please define the term "Folk Music"!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:35 PM

I think that you would not think so, Bill, were your early acquaintances with the concept of "God" not associated primarily with the very anthropomorphic deities popularized by the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition.

Those dieties are almost astonishingly narrow and primitive-sounding when you compare them to the concepts of the Divine offered in Vedanta. Or in Buddhism. Or in Taoism...which doesn't even posit any form of deity, but does posit a divine "Way" of harmonious and coherent existence which everything is attuned to...although human beings' minds tend to get in the way of keeping that attunement most effectively.

You only say it's vague and useless because you are largely unfamiliar with it, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:18 PM

I will. YO!!! GODBOY!!!! WAKE THE F***K UP!!!!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:10 PM

"God is identical with existence itself, that is to say, God is inclusive of all that is."

...and I say again, Little Hawk....if that is true, it is trivial and irrelevant and merely a linguistic construction. It posits a theology that is so vague as to be useless. (sorta like calling all music that is not sung by horses 'folk')

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bee
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:52 PM

Very good point, Little Hawk. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:48 PM

"Well, who would wake him up then? "

ooooooooooooo..... never thought of that...

in the words of that joke.... "That's a hard one!"

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:43 PM

Well, who would wake him up then?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:43 PM

"Existence itself exists."

You are all just part of the dream occurring in my mind.


We are all just part of the dream in the mind of a god. Should he wake...

Please don't wake the bastard up!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:27 PM

Okay...this should be fun...

Argument 2

I exist. (Do you? Are you sure? Maybe your existence is illusory, like a dream.)

My existence must have a cause. (Must it? How so? If you have always existed, then no cause was required. How do you know you have not always existed? Are you only your body? If not, then you may have pre-existed the body. Is your body real?)

The cause must be either:
   a) myself (possibly)
   b) my always having existed (as I have suggested already)
   c) my parents (yeah, okay)
   d) something less perfect than God (a thing is either perfect or it isn't...how can you be less perfect?)
   e) God (how do you define "God"?")

Not a. If I had created myself, I would have made myself perfect. (How could you do that if you were not perfect already? Have you considered that maybe you are perfect, in that you are the one and only perfect version of what you are?)

Not b. Continued existence does not follow from present existence. (Why not?)

Not c. This leads to an infinite regress. (Does it?)

Not d. The idea of perfection that exists in me cannot have originated from a non-perfect being. (Ha! I am less than a perfect singer or guitar player, but I DO have an idea of perfection when it comes to both of those activities...as does anyone else who is deeply interested in those activities.)

      e. God exists. (Again, how do you define "God", Mr Decartes?)

Here's what I say: Existence itself exists. God is identical with existence itself, that is to say, God is inclusive of all that is. We debate about because we think we are separate. That thinking is our dream of separate existence, and it is what appears to separate us from one another and from God, which is existence itself. Nothing that exists CAN separate itself from existence itself, but it can imagine that it has done so.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:25 PM

I can Imagine perfection
I am not perfect
Therefore my imagination is better than other parts of me.
Or maybe, thus proves that PART of me is perfect...


A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:24 PM

Well that's better, I had to reload this thread, because it got 'recursively tangled - somehow the HTML got garbled, and last few posts turned into a sorta multiframe mess of repeated posts all over the place - took me a few seconds to realise what had happened.... it was actually making sense for a bit....

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:20 PM

Monsieur Descartes had real problem with the premises he used for his syllogisms...He failed to mention some ...which he just assumed, and he left out others which would have been necessary to validate his conclusions.
   But we can perhaps forgive him a wee bit, for he already KNEW the answer he had to arrive at, and he simply tailored his arguments to give the best reasoning he could find.

(Even at that, he got in some hot water for even pretending to 'doubt' the existence of God. The church was not amused by, or interested in, logical proof of something that was just...well...obvious! René had to do some public recantation of his ideas, just as Copernicus had to do earlier.

Any time you get into a routine of 'proving' God by showing how 'reasonable' the idea is, you end up with either circular logic or fallacious use of premises. Of course, if rhetorical force in order to convince others who don't KNOW logic is all you are after, there are some rather clever ways.

   Kierkegaard dealt with it better...he realized that it WAS simply a matter of 'faith', and he did a pretty good job of showing how faith worked in practice. (24 paragraphs of detailed explanation mercifully left out)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:16 PM

And behind door# 1, we have:
I can imagine perfection
I am not perfect
Therefore something perfect exists that isn't me
Therefore there is god?

Or is it, who am I to imagine god, I imagine him to be so great I can't have imagined him so he must exist?

How is this reasonable?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:14 PM

I'll take door # 2:
I exist. My existence must have a cause. The cause must be: a) myself, b) my always having existed, c) my parents, d) something less perfect than God, or e) God
OK, I start having issues here. It seems that only d and e cover the entire universe of possibility, so a, b, and c are already spurious.
Not a. If I had created myself, I would have made myself perfect. If he were perfect he'd be god, by his own rationale; if he could have made himself perfect he would be god, so either way, he's contradicting his own presupposition that god exists but isn't him.
Not b. Continued existence does not follow from present existence. No, but existence can follow from past existence.
Not c. This leads to an infinite regress. Well, no, it doesn't; it goes back to the beginning and then stops.
Not d. The idea of perfection that exists in me cannot have originated from a non-perfect being. And here we have the rub: Whyever not? Therefore, it is an incorrect conclusion that e. God exists.

(hope I make it through the italicizing and unitalicizing. Descartes is meant to be in italics, and me, not.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:07 PM

And thus... most of my last post.

Bartenders... Hmph!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:03 PM

Descartes walks into a bar and asks for a whisky; bartender says, want a chaser with that? Descartes considers it, then answers "I think not" ... and *poof!* he disappeared.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:51 PM

"We have certain tools to slowly investigate the physical laws of the universe, and we sorta think right now that somewhere about 14-15 Billion years ago, 'something' happened that 'caused' all the complexity we see now. "

So now it's thought that 2 umtpy-umpteen-dimensioned 'membranes' collided, starting off our 'Big Bang... but that way of course leads to madness - 'just what were all (and how many of them?) those 'branes' doing floating around (in what?), and what 'created' them.'...

"They're coming to take me away, Ha ha!"

Sorta ends up like going down that path that leads to serious discussions on just how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:47 PM

Thanks for the reference to Descartes' Meditations on the first philosophy, Greg... I have not looked at it in a long time... and I should have.

Wiki has a nice synopsis of this work, and I'm wending my way through it bit by bit.

This seems to be relevant:

Meditation III

Argument 1

I have an idea of God (an infinitely perfect substance).
That idea must have a cause.
Nothing comes from nothing.
The cause must have at least as much formal reality as the idea.
I am not infinitely perfect.
I could not be the cause of the idea.
There must be a cause that is infinitely perfect.
God exists.

Argument 2

I exist.
My existence must have a cause.
The cause must be either:
   a) myself
   b) my always having existed
   c) my parents
   d) something less perfect than God
   e) God
Not a. If I had created myself, I would have made myself perfect.
Not b. Continued existence does not follow from present existence.
Not c. This leads to an infinite regress.
Not d. The idea of perfection that exists in me cannot have originated from a non-perfect being.
      e. God exists.

...and this...

I find that I am "intermediate" between God and nothingness, between the supreme entity and nonentity. Insofar as I am the creation of the supreme entity, there's nothing in me to account for my being deceived or led into error, but, inasmuch as I somehow participate in nothing or nonentity - that is, insofar as I am distinct from the supreme entity itself and lack many things - it's not surprising that I go wrong. I thus understand that, in itself, error is a lack, rather than a real thing dependent on God. Hence, I understand that I can err without God's having given me a special ability to do so. Rather, I fall into error because my God-given ability to judge the truth is not infinite. (Descartes, Meditation IV: On Truth and Falsity).

So... have at it!
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:34 PM

Yea, verily, and forsooth, in the times to come ALL shall prophesy!!! Give heed to brother Bill, for he speaketh the Word of the Lord!