BS: One compelling reason for a god?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 02:35 PM

That's exactly what's worrying me, BB. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 01:19 PM

"I shall turn my eyes unto the hidden influence of an ex-Secretary of State with Stalinist leanings, from whence cometh my strength...."



A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

LH,

"When I get a face showing up in an omelet or a smoothie or something, it's never Jesus or the Virgin Mary. Uh-uh. I get Jerry Lewis, Chuck Berry, or Henry Kissinger. "

Is Someone trying to tell you something?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 11:17 AM

This is discouraging. When I get a face showing up in an omelet or a smoothie or something, it's never Jesus or the Virgin Mary. Uh-uh. I get Jerry Lewis, Chuck Berry, or Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 09:00 AM

theobromine!


God in the chocolate.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:52 AM

Hey Amos, you ain't seen nuthin yet ....

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:25 PM

Jeeze, MT, I've seen a lot of shlock, a lot of insincere and inauthentic bushwah, a lot of hollow, self-serving snake-oil pitches and a lot of pure delusory bullshit in my time, but that link of yours is right up there with the top ten per cent.

A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:09 PM

Well, you're like most people. They give little credence to anyone else's personal experience if it lies outside their usual set of assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:47 PM

Idont believe Mrrzy is weak on logic,
but in any case - you cannot prove your Gods existence by logic.
I put about as much credence in Gianna Sullivan as those whove claimed alien abductions.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:14 PM

Hmmm - I always thought it was because organizing atheists is like hearding cats...

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:31 PM

Not explicitly, anyway... ;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:52 PM

Well...I've never claimed to be perfect, have I? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:12 PM

LEedle Hack, I recommend to you a study of the more scientific and less polemic work of Abraham Maslow. He thinks the hierarchy of need is a bit different than you describe it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 11:53 AM

So if a person sees the BVM, it a real experience--Now you tell me!!! then I guess this, in my very own town,God, Mary, and Jesus Scheduled to Appear in Gaithersburg is real, too--You atheists make a big fuss, but when the big guns show, you cave right it;-)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:53 AM

Here's another thing for you to ponder, Mrrzy. You said, "In the US alone there are about 10:1 atheists/people of no religion to jews. Why aren't we a more viable political force?"

LOL! Why aren't you a more viable political force????? I can't believe you're asking that. Look, my friend, the world is basically run by people who don't believe in much of anything but seeking their own gain. Such people are THE political force in this world, and among their ranks are included the vast majority of both atheists and so-called "religious" people. People who genuinely devote their efforts to a higher ideal of any sort are actually quite rare.

Most people seek the following things in life:

1. Survival
2. Pleasure
3. Possessions
4. Wealth
5. Status

Survival normally comes first, quickly followed by the others in no particular order.

And they seek to avoid:

1. Death
2. Suffering
3. Poverty
4. Humiliation

This is true of the vast majority of people whether or not they are atheists or theists, and it IS the primary engine (set of motivations) which runs and sustains all political systems. It IS the political force that prevails.

So your perception that non-theists are not a viable political force is silly, in my opinion. Non-theists AND theists in search of more money and more possessions, pleasure, and status are pretty well running the whole frikkin' WORLD right now!

Here's the reason why you don't see the non-theists as "a viable political force". They're all in it for themselves. Accordingly, they are competing against one another and therefore are at odds with each other. Their basic desires are pretty much identical, but those desires are by their very nature mutually conflicting when it comes to expressing them. This is also, by the way, rather true of the various theists who can't agree with each other on religion.

You see, you might just as well bemoan the fact that all the religious people in the world can't join together in a common political purpose as that all the non-religious ones can't. ;-) It's the same problem in both cases.

I have faith that you will probably not fully appreciate the point I have just made. (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:28 AM

Of course faith is irrational by definition. If you have thoroughly rational reasons, based on direct experience, then you aren't having faith, you are concluding.
And I'll look into that "documented" virgin mary thing.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:43 AM

Oh, did I forget? It is Dr. Gianna Talone Sullivan, she has, I think, a degree in Pharmacology--one of those "Hard" doctorates--

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:34 AM

Mrzzy: A Strawman argument--means, basically, that you are arguing against a "straw man"--an opponent that you have actually created yourself.

I think that you overestimate your skills in logic, which is the vehicle of reason--you are overconfident in your own rationality--and, as someone once said, pride goeth before the fall--but I like you, so here is some thing amazing for you to think about--

Up the road from you, only an hour and a half or so, in Emmitsburg, Maryland, every Thurdsay Night at St. Joseph's Parish, not merely an angel, but the Virgin Mary appears to a woman by the name of Gianna Talone Sullivan--and has since 1993--Here is a report, written by a Priest who is both a Doctor of Philosophy and Doctor of the Law.Report on Marian Apparitions at EmmitsburgHe believes the apparitions are real. Can you refute him?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:57 PM

Furthermore, faith is not irrational by definition. It is entirely possible to have faith in something for thoroughly rational reasons, based on direct experience. For instance, I have faith in the snow tires on my car. They have performed well in the past, and I expect they will again. I have faith in certain people, based on their past excellent behaviour. I also have faith, interestingly enough, in the power of prayer, because I've seen dramatic and unexpected things happen on the few occasions in my life when I prayed with genuine, absolute undivided focus and real urgency (those occasions were quite rare, I can tell you...mostly I'm way too busy just being "normal", as you might put it...like most people are).

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:50 PM

Because you're so besotted with your verbal reasoning and debating powers that you can't agree on anything long enough to get organized? ;-)

By the way, you don't have to believe in anything religious whatsoever to be a Jew. You just have to have had a Jewish mother.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:50 PM

Your arguements against religion are of the "Straw Man" variety, and refute little to nothing of what "believers" believe. First, what IS a straw man argument? I've heard the phrase...

And rational arguments are all I have. They cannot refute faith which, by definition, is not rational. What I believe I can do is refute the idea that it makes SENSE to believe in the supernatural.

And I just love Tom Lehrer.

According to census data, the world population is:

About 33% christian
About 25% non-theists of various ilk, including but not limited to atheists
About 18% moslem
About 13% Hindu
About 10% what they call "folk religions" (devout Mudcatters?)
And about 1%Other, including less than .5% jewish.

In the US alone there are about 10:1 atheists/people of no religion to jews. Why aren't we a more viable political force?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:23 PM

Peale being deep was a reference to an old Tom Lehrer song, "It Makes a Fellow Proud to Be a Soldier"--

"Now Fred's an intellectual, brings a book to every meal.
He likes the deep philosophers, like Norman Vincent Peale."

Ironic, of course. Beside his extreme conservative political views, Peale was noted for his simplistic "Power of Positive Thinking" views, which some have pointed out, seemed often antithetical to basic Christian moral ideas, and, if they didn't outright deny the existence of evil in the world, seemed unconcerned with it.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 05:39 PM

ok by me.
Im a utilitarian..
the golden rule is enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 04:56 PM

No - I said "Perhaps that was their way of enjoying the journey. ".

What I know is this - somewhere in the neighborhood of over 80% of the worlds population believe in the existance of some sort of higher power. It could be "God", Budda, Mother Earth, Shiva, or Katsuk the Monkey God. That large a percentage of the earths population is not going to change overnight. So what we're going to have to do is learn how to live with each other and respect each other regardless of beliefs - or lack of beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:05 PM

I agree but, not specifically inspired by any of them.
what makes you say the Peale quote is too deep?

as for Wesleys 'maybe they enjoyed the journey'
maybe,, but does the suicide bomber ?
or is it simply indoctrination and brainwashing to make one expect paradise..
through most of history one had little choice to decide ones religion,
it was part of life and provided powerful political control for the church. (people can be kept poor and submissive - because paradise awaits them, and if they dont behave, eternal damnation)

no doubt there are good things, and comfort in the beliefs that one is serving ones god

but plenty of kids were sent into monasteries/nunneries or clergy
because their parents were poor - did they choose to live life to their potential..

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:59 PM

While his highly technical lectures may not net Christianity many fresh converts, Mr. Swinburne's efforts to bring inductive logic to bear on questions of faith have earned him a considerable reputation in the small but vibrant world of Christian academic philosophy. Thanks to the efforts of Mr. Swinburne and a handful of other nimble scholarly minds—including Alvin Plantinga at the University of Notre Dame and Nicholas Wolterstorff at Yale—religious belief no longer languishes in a state of philosophical disrepute. Deploying a range of sophisticated logical arguments developed over the last 25 years, Christian philosophers have revived faith as a subject of rigorous academic debate, steadily chipping away at the assumption—all but axiomatic in philosophy since the Enlightenment—that belief in God is logically indefensible.


The articles carefully avoids identifying the premises and the variables named as combining to provide the 97% probability, which is not assigned to the existence of God, but to the resurrection. One of the variables Swinburne does mention is estimation of witness reliabililty. I'd love to see the logic behind that parameter.


A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:23 PM

In this article, Bayes' Theorem , a Mr. Swinburne figures it at 97%. As to the question/answer thing, I am a question person. Ask a question of almost any sort, and people will cheerfully answer. Give an answer, and people generally just stare at you.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:04 PM

That is true, M. Ted. One thing I know for sure is this...I don't know much!

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:58 PM

MTed,
so what, its good not to have all the answers, its better to have questions.

So does the mathmatical Baye's theorum reveal the likeyhood of god or not?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:51 PM

Actually, Little Hawk, they can also be shock out of limiting mental habits when their syrupy, self-referencing world starts feeding back on itself, and they are overwhelmed with existential nausea. For most, though, that's only a theoretical possibility--

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:35 PM

Abe Lincoln said "Most people are about as happy as they've made up their minds to be."

True. He might just as well have said, "Most people believe pretty much whatever they've made up their minds to believe."   ;-)

They are creatures of rigid mental habit. The only thing that can shock them out of a limiting mental habit is an actual undeniable experience that forces them to at least momentarily remove their blinders. Such an experience can change a person forever, but don't expect anyone else to change his habitual beliefs on account of it! Not a chance. The only experience that most people trust, ultimately, is their own...and that's not surprising. Animals are like that too.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:01 PM

Are you inspired by the inimitable Conrad Birdie, petr?

Oh, Life's a ball
if only you know it
And it's all just waiting for you
You're alive,
So come on and show it
We got a lot of livin'
Such a lot of livin'
Got a lot of livin' to do!

Or is it Auntie Mame?

"LIFE'S A BANQUET, AND MOST POOR SUCKERS ARE STARVING TO DEATH!"


Or could it be Dr. Norman Vincent Peale?

"Anybody can do just about anything with himself that he really wants to and makes up his mind to do. We are capable of greater things than we realize." --

No, I take Dr. Peale back, he's a bit too deep--

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:31 PM

Perhaps that was their way of enjoying the journey.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:07 PM

hope - same thing as what I just said..
believing in a scheme of things or order as defined by mythology
just to make you feel better that there is a purpose in life.

yes there is a purpose. it is to live it. to make more of it if possible.

'too busy with the petty business of life'
Cant disagree more. the here and now is what is important.
Rather than hoping for some vague afterlife, and missing out on whats here and now.
Thanks to religion, plenty of people have missed on the here and now
in favor something better at the end..

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:44 AM

Mrzzy--so I am not convinced that you came to any of your beliefs or non-beliefs through a disciplined process of reason--you were brought up without religion, never felt the need for it, so it has no meaning to you. That's "habit", not reason. Your arguements against religion are of the "Straw Man" variety, and refute little to nothing of what "believers" believe.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:21 AM

I think many people have perceived angels, all right. But Mrrzy was talking about seeing them in the normal space-time sense of the word, and with that caveat I am inclined to agree. Besides, people perceive the face of Jesus in French toast, for crying out loud. There is an awful lot to know about the realm in which such perceptions occur and the mechanisms of them, but it isn't ordinary 3-D seeing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:01 AM

"And I'm responsible for finding my own answers, no one else's"--A critical bit of truth there, Daylia--kind of reminds me of (to take this back to folk music):

"You've got to walk that lonesome valley,
You've got to walk it by yourself.
Nobody else can walk it for you,
You've got to walk it by yourself"--

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 08:50 AM

Well, if anybody documents an angel sighting, I'll be perfectly willing to believe in them. There is plenty of evidence for all kinds of things I can't see - but I believe the *evidence*. And M.Ted - I'm not trying to provide answers - just trying to limit the answers that people DO give to something that is actually demonstrable. It isn't faith, Little Hawk, that has me not believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Zeus, or the Christian god, or angels, or devils, or demons, or anything else mythological and/or supernatural. It's a rational conclusion from the evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 07:09 AM

lol John!   MTed, I like your phrasing and interpretation. However I'm just a musician, so I can't resist messin around with your harmony a bit. Like this ...

"Angels, as some see them, don't exist for most people. They're too busy with the petty business of life. Angels have no answers for them. And neither do you ..."   

And I'm responsible for finding my own answers, no one else's (thank god)

Daylia, surely you aren't claiming that angels are *real* when one sees them in something?

Depends on how you define *real* and *angels*.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:55 AM

"Seeing angels in anything is hallucination. The dawning wisdom we are hoping for is when people see that there is no divine, imminent or not, and we're stuck with what we have, and should therefore make the best of it."

"Nobody has actually ever seen an angel. Nobody. Not one person. Ever. They aren't real."

Such confidence. I wish I could be as certain as that about sonmthing. Especially without any evidnence. But I guess if you really really believe something to be true you don't need evidence do you. Wait a minute, which side am I on?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:12 AM

I've never seen an electron without a microscope
I've never seen a person living well but without hope
I've never found true happiness, but Oh... it must exist
I've heard the last temptation's the hardest to resist

I've never seen an angel, though real they seem to me
A transcendent sense of goodness, that speaks eternity
I've never seen the devil, but lo... he's walking sure
undermining righteousness, and sullying the pure

I've never seen a peaceful world, and yet I do my part
I yearn to learn diplomacy, it's not too late to start
I've never seen an angel, with wings and cherub's gaze
And yet when fear does bind me, I'm loosened by their praise
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:13 AM

Mrzzy hasn't answered that old question that they used to always ask at More Science High School--"What is reality?"

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:50 AM

"Nobody has actually ever seen an angel. Nobody. Not one person. Ever. They aren't real."

Uh-huh. (smile) Oh, I just love the strength of your faith, Mrrzy. Very impressive. A faith like that is as hard as a rock.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Apr 07 - 12:16 AM

God is hope. That's what it's about. The universe, as Richard Dawkins sees it, doesn't exist for most people. They're too busy with the petty business of life. He has no answers for them. And neither do you, Mrzzy--

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 08:32 PM

rock chick. I agree.

one reason to believe in God and afterlife, is that it gives people comfort to have a meaning and purpose in life -

of course the pure biological meaning of life is easy.
to make more life.
(having watched two of my babies being born and grow into little people
is quite a miracle and yet - it does not make me believe in God)

make the best of the one life that you have.

historically- religion may have provided the comfort, but it also provided political control and untold suffering -

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 08:02 PM

Hey, I've never seen Australia, but I don't deny its existence. Nobody has actually ever seen an angel. Nobody. Not one person. Ever. They aren't real.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 06:56 PM

Mrrzy, there are stranger things in heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, as Shakespeare once said. I don't expect you to believe in anything you haven't seen...but neither do I give you the authority to categorically deny the existence of something just because you haven't seen it. You have no such authority.

I was being serious in the first part of my post. The Divine (in my opinion) is in everthing, but that doesn't mean you will necessarily see it there. I was being whimsical when I mentioned Chongo. I like mixing serious comment with a dash of humor.

You'll have to first see an Angel someday yourself, Mrrzy. In person. Then I will leave it entirely up to you to decide whether it's "real" or not. You won't need me or my opinion for that part.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:18 PM

Another good reason for god is to keep insurance companies solvent. When something like Katrina happens, they can just declare that "It was an act of god," not pay anybody, and go on and collect premiums from other people in Detroit and Seattle.

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 10:38 AM

Daylia, surely you aren't claiming that angels are *real* when one sees them in something?

Subject: RE: BS: One compelling reason for a god?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 07 - 10:05 AM

There's a power of spiritual beauty to be seen in an ape, or for that matter in a clump of dandelions or a rock, if one chooses to shift his view to the right wavelength.

But to label these perspectives as angels is to clutter them up with categorical luggage that is not only additive, but actually spoils the view, IMHO.

A